We need to talk about responding to Trans related issues

[Xaszatm]

Note 1: While this was made in response to various trans-folk related threatds, I've noticed this happen under other LGBT threads as well. While this OP will be focused on trans related issues, feel free to discuss this happening in other LGBT-related threads.

Note 2: I myself am not trans and do not wish for folks to use this to silence other trans folk. I also want to state that though I did consult with trans folk in the creation of this thread, I do not speak for the trans community.

Era, we need to have a discussion about how we respond to the plight and feelings of the LGBT community, especially if one is not a part of this community. Many times in the past couple of weeks/months I've noticed posts responding to an OP, particularly with trans related issues, with either dimissal or derrision. There is an attempt by people who are not trans to dismiss the OP and any trans folk as simple "outrage" without really listening to why they are upset. There will be attempts to categorize the anger and hurt of trans folk as simple "cancel culture" and to dismiss dissapointment or sorrow as bile and anger. There is a false attempt to tell trans folk to forgive and forget without actually addressing the problem in the first place in the name of "solidarity". And it needs to stop.

This cannot continue. Trans folk deserve to be heard without this dismisal of thier views, particularly when it involves trans rights. Being an "ally" does not give you the same voice to outshout and silence trans folk about trans topics. If you do so, you're not actually being an ally.

In addition, criticising an action as transphobic is not the same thing as "cancel culture" or "the left eating itself". Trans folk criticize these actions to in order to inform the person making these statements as well as those reading the criticism about this to prevent the same mistake from happening again. To dismiss such criticism simply silences the voices of the trans community.

Furthermore, "cancelling" someone means to not buy their product, which last I checked was called consumer rights. And even if "cancelling" meant this censure you seem to think it does, none of the people that were cancelled actually went away so it's not like it even worked if that was the actual purpose.

Bottom line, trans folk should not have to be worried to defend their opinions by those who are not trans. You should listen to them and try to understand, not dismiss them and yell at them to ignore their pain.

 

[Icemonk191]

Great OP! Agree 100%.

 

[Deleted member 3093]

About right, yeah.It's really disheartening having to watch and explain to every chucklehead why they're wrong about trans issues.

 

[Apollo]

Absolutely. Cis people policing how trans people should feel has become a pretty significant issue here. If I never have to hear terms like "cancel culture" or "performative wokeness" again, it'll be too soon.

Edit: hell, just make that "woke" tbh. such a frustrating way to diminish real hurt and real concerns

 

[Servbot24]

Admittedly there are times I hear a grievance from a trans person that I don't understand. Which is natural if I'm not trans - of course I won't fully grasp the deeper parts of what they may be feeling or going through. That's usually a great time to simply read and not post.

 

[dubq]

nb/amab here. Thank you for posting this, OP. It is much appreciated. :)

 

[Deleted member 60096]

Yeah, cis people generally don't give trans people's intentions behind their complaints as they give other cis people for their problematic behaviour, which I understand where it comes from as a cis dude myself but its not good. Us cis folk have to be able to realise that much like with other minorities, the best way to understand these issues is to actually talk them at their word

 

[HardTimesFamilyPride]

I read a lot of the recent thread where this was an issue. I have been actively trying to keep from posting and instead focus on reading and understanding. I find myself at some point in reading realizing that I agree with what's being said and I was initially reacting to, as you pointed out, some of the perception of terms being used. Sometimes I feel an urge to post but I also don't want to risk stepping on toes by speaking for trans people.

In regards to that thread (the Lindsay Ellis one) I realized that I myself have for a while refused to make certain jokes even around people who understand my intent and wouldn't judge, because I worry about normalization and enabling. Once that connection was made, thanks to a few posts in there, everything became very clear.

Discussions like that, while they can feel jarring from the outside due to how personally a lot of folks feel about the topic (and understandably so!) as compared to, say, my relative distance from it, are important for us to check ourselves, realize our blinds spots, etc. which is the only way things can improve.

 

[Serif]

The advantage of this being an Internet medium (and specifically a discussion forum as opposed to a messaging platform) is that one can step away, listen i.e. read, and conduct research before asking questions or jumping in with a take.

This is a perfect space to acknowledge your knowledge and experience deficits, own up to it, and learn. It's sad to see that this doesn't happen more often.

 

[Arkanim94]

Not being shitty to trans folks shouldn't be so difficult...

 

[Syril]

Edit: Sorry, snark isn't really called for here. This thread really needs to be said, and the fact that it needs to be said is frustrating.

 

[Patsy]

Thank you so, so much. This is super appreciated ; w;

 

[RedMercury]

I'm not trans but I appreciate you taking the time to write this out and I think it's awesome you consulted with trans individuals to make the thread. I lack the perspective to offer much of substance but I just wanted to say I hear you, and I hope if there ever came a time that I'm ignorant on something or hurt any feelings that I'm held accountable for it and can take the time to learn why I was wrong and apologize. I think this thread is a great message to send and I hope lots of people read it!

 

[Professor Beef]

this is pretty dope, gj Xas

me not knowing a whole bunch about trans issues kept me from posting in the lindsay ellis thread that popped up today, so hopefully i can learn more in this thread

 

[Deleted member 2761]

I think it's really important when someone from a marginalized group tells you that a certain behavior is harmful, it comes from a place of very real pain. People are eager to join in the conversation, but sometimes the most productive thing you can do is listen. Outright dismissal and invalidation of feelings seen in so-called progressive spaces like this one can often be more hurtful than the words bigots say.

 

[L Thammy]

I posted a dumb joke thread where we mocked games as if we were twelve year olds and someone used that as a springboard to whine about a gender issues thread. Since I'm cis it's not my place to be offended, but it's certainly a disappointment to see people act that way.

It strikes me as being part of a broader tendency to undermine issues around minorities by reframing them as complains from distant, disinterested non-minorities, or by shouldering them to solve all of bigotry before they try to defend themselves.

 

[Jeremy]

Bottom line, trans folk should not have to be worried to defend their opinions by those who are not trans.

Click to shrink...

I could not be more on board with Trans rights and I have no idea what forum drama prompted this thread, but this seems like a terrible bottom line... and a standard that I would not apply to any category of identity.

This is a public forum intended for discussion. If people want to question other posters, why shouldn't other posters be expected to defend their opinions, regardless of identity category.

If someone feels unfairly targeted, they have every right to express that, and if harrassment continues that's another issue entirely.

No one should have or expect that their viewpoint is the only defensible viewpoint, and if someone is being explicitly harrassed, we have mods to take care of that, don't we?

 

[Ashlette]

I agree.

Era's trans community is one of the smallest on the site, judging from the size of the TransEra thread, and its members should have the right to express their concerns without having to deal with dismissive nonsense.

If you are a cis person and think that some threads are the result of "other people becoming too sensitive", then you should take a seat and listen. Yielding your half baked opinion to give more trans people an opportunity to speak up is not your undoing.

 

[Volimar]

I honestly think it's an empathy problem. People with no dog in the fight take a quick look at a thread OP and then ignore all the trans members stating why it's inappropriate in order to basically tell them they're wrong.

 

[Lockheartilly9799]

It sucks that this thread was needed but it was. Thanks for doing this OP. I'm still upset over that one person in a thread a month ago who was complaining that trans identity shouldn't be on birth certificates due to potentially "misinforming medical specialists" or some stupid BS like that. Even though that thread is old now, I'm still upset about it. I'm tired of having to defend my existence on a daily basis in life.

 

[BlackGoku03]

Nice OP. As a black man, I rarely post in trans threads because my goal is to read and learn.

Ketkat and Kyuuji especially have insightful posts and I'm happy to read them.

 

[El Bombastico]

Yeah, I've noticed this as well, OP. People need to learn to just listen sometimes and not butt in with a half-assed opinion.

 

[Jeremy]

I honestly think it's an empathy problem. People with no dog in the fight take a quick look at a thread OP and then ignore all the trans members stating why it's inappropriate in order to basically tell them they're wrong.

Click to shrink...

Could you explain why this thread happened? Was there a specific inciting incident?

Without the context, it sounds like the OP is saying that non-trans people shouldn't be able to weigh in on trans rights on the forum. That to me seems ridiculous. What is the point of posting in a forum if not to come up against others' opinions (provided that they are non-hateful and otherwise within the forum guidelines)?

 

[Alavard]

Could you explain why this thread happened? Was there a specific inciting incident?

Without the context, it sounds like the OP is saying that non-trans people shouldn't be able to weigh in on trans rights on the forum. That to me seems ridiculous. What is the point of posting in a forum if not to come up against others' opinions (provided that they are non-hateful and otherwise within the forum guidelines)?

Click to shrink...

Is there a reason why you're trying to turn this thread into being all about your concerns?

 

[Jeremy]

Is there a reason why you're trying to turn this thread into being all about your concerns?

Click to shrink...

I'm a member of the community too, and I see a disconnect between a plea for empathy and a complaint that not everyone thinks in the same manner.

 

[Deleted member 60096]

Could you explain why this thread happened? Was there a specific inciting incident?

Without the context, it sounds like the OP is saying that non-trans people shouldn't be able to weigh in on trans rights on the forum. That to me seems ridiculous. What is the point of posting in a forum if not to come up against others' opinions (provided that they are non-hateful and otherwise within the forum guidelines)?

Click to shrink...

The OP is pretty clearly not suggesting such a thing, they are saying that cis people shouldn't dismiss the lived experiences of trans people and their feelings when they are expressed

 

[Volimar]

Could you explain why this thread happened? Was there a specific inciting incident?

Without the context, it sounds like the OP is saying that non-trans people shouldn't be able to weigh in on trans rights on the forum. That to me seems ridiculous. What is the point of posting in a forum if not to come up against others' opinions (provided that they are non-hateful and otherwise within the forum guidelines)?

Click to shrink...

No one is saying they can't give their opinion but when the people who are affected by someone's actions tell you the actions are wrong, don't tell them they're wrong when it doesn't affect you either way. If you can't or won't take the time to understand why a trans member is affected by transphobia, then yeah, maybe you shouldn't "weigh in" because you either don't understand or don't care about those who have to live with the weight of those actions.

 

[Apollo]

I honestly think it's an empathy problem. People with no dog in the fight take a quick look at a thread OP and then ignore all the trans members stating why it's inappropriate in order to basically tell them they're wrong.

Click to shrink...

I'm pretty sure it's exactly this. If a bunch of trans people are going "hey, this sucks", your first instinct shouldn't be to blindly dismiss their concerns, but to try to understand where they're coming from. There's room for cis people in these threads, but they need to be willing to empathize with people who are hurt.

Could you explain why this thread happened? Was there a specific inciting incident?

Without the context, it sounds like the OP is saying that non-trans people shouldn't be able to weigh in on trans rights on the forum. That to me seems ridiculous. What is the point of posting in a forum if not to come up against others' opinions (provided that they are non-hateful and otherwise within the forum guidelines)?

Click to shrink...

various transphobia-adjacent threads in the past few months (at least since I've started participating in them, I'd not be surprised if it's been even longer) have been absolute dumpster fires of cis people drive-by dismissing the concerns of trans posters as "wokeness" gone too far

 

[Bio]

Without the context, it sounds like the OP is saying that non-trans people shouldn't be able to weigh in on trans rights on the forum. That to me seems ridiculous.

Click to shrink...

You're not required to post in every thread, nor have an opinion on every issue, particularly issues where you're not at all affected and may be so far outside the scope of that issue that you don't properly understand it. Sometimes it's better to just sit back and read and pay attention to what people who are actually dealing with that situation have to say.

Basically, if trans people are saying "This is a problem, this is offensive and hurtful", non-trans people don't get to say "nah, it's really not".

 

[pigeon]

Could you explain why this thread happened? Was there a specific inciting incident?

Without the context, it sounds like the OP is saying that non-trans people shouldn't be able to weigh in on trans rights on the forum. That to me seems ridiculous. What is the point of posting in a forum if not to come up against others' opinions (provided that they are non-hateful and otherwise within the forum guidelines)?

Click to shrink...

There are lots of topics on the forum where one or more of the possible positions on the issue are actually just bannable, so I don't think this argument makes much sense. Maybe trans rights should just be more explicitly one of those topics.

 

[Ashlette]

Could you explain why this thread happened? Was there a specific inciting incident?

Without the context, it sounds like the OP is saying that non-trans people shouldn't be able to weigh in on trans rights on the forum. That to me seems ridiculous. What is the point of posting in a forum if not to come up against others' opinions (provided that they are non-hateful and otherwise within the forum guidelines)?

Click to shrink...

A thread about trans rights should be steered by trans people, not cis people.

 

[Jeremy]

No one is saying they can't give their opinion but when the people who are affected by someone's actions tell you the actions are wrong, don't tell them they're wrong when it doesn't affect you either way. If you can't or won't take the time to understand why a trans member is affected by transphobia, then yeah, maybe you shouldn't "weigh in" because you either don't understand or don't care about those who have to live with the weight of those actions.

Click to shrink...

The OP's "bottom line" is just very poorly written and sounded like it was asking for specifically that people couldn't give their opinion.

Thanks for clarifying that this isn't the case.

 

[Professor Beef]

Trans folk deserve to be heard without this dismisal of thier views, particularly when it involves trans rights. Being an "ally" does not give you the same voice to outshout and silence trans folk about trans topics. If you do so, you're not actually being an ally.

Click to shrink...

Without the context, it sounds like the OP is saying that non-trans people shouldn't be able to weigh in on trans rights on the forum. That to me seems ridiculous. What is the point of posting in a forum if not to come up against others' opinions (provided that they are non-hateful and otherwise within the forum guidelines)?

Click to shrink...

🤔

 

[Deleted member 22901]

Could you explain why this thread happened? Was there a specific inciting incident?

Without the context, it sounds like the OP is saying that non-trans people shouldn't be able to weigh in on trans rights on the forum. That to me seems ridiculous. What is the point of posting in a forum if not to come up against others' opinions (provided that they are non-hateful and otherwise within the forum guidelines)?

Click to shrink...

the problem to me is not dissenting opinions, it's the fact that cis people with no skin in the game feel as though they can determine what is or isn't transphobic for trans people. this leads to the opinions of trans folks getting dismissed entirely, especially if the responses are especially emotional. i don't really know how to articulate my point, but it is painfully clear to trans people when cis folks do not care about the issue and just want the problem to go away.

i think that if i were cis the best way to approach one of these discussions would not to jump in and immediately share my opinion. obviously if i weren't trans i wouldn't have as much of a connection to the topic, right? so i might be more willing to let something slide. i think cis people should take a step back and read what trans people are saying before coming to any conclusions. ask honest questions, do the research, listen to trans people, and don't speak for others.

i don't know, this post is kinda just a stream of consciousness, but i hope it makes sense.

 

[Jeremy]

A thread about trans rights should be steered by trans people, not cis people.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, definitely agree here, I guess I just bristled at the OP's bluntness, which seems politically counterproductive to me...

 

[Lundren]

Admittedly there are times I hear a grievance from a trans person that I don't understand. Which is natural if I'm not trans - of course I won't fully grasp the deeper parts of what they may be feeling or going through. That's usually a great time to simply read and not post.

Click to shrink...

Nice OP. As a black man, I rarely post in trans threads because my goal is to read and learn.

Ketkat and Kyuuji especially have insightful posts and I'm happy to read them.

Click to shrink...

This is where i stand as well.

I've posted a few times about how people need to sit back and read the thread before jumping in with a hot take that comes from a place of ignorance.

I'll admit that it took me a few different posts over the years to understand certain aspects of being trans. The only way cishet people will be able to understand why things are hurtful is to listen when you're being told why it's hurtful. I've even gone back and deleted posts where I'm on the side of transpeople explaining why things are shitty because someone with the actual life experience will come into the thread and phrase it 100x better than I could ever hope to.

What we need to understand (and something that I've been accused of) is that nobody is silencing you or your opinion. Feel free to share it, but understand that if you're being told you don't understand the situation or have a blind spot, you may have to take a step back and listen.

 

[Deleted member 60096]

Bottom line, trans folk should not have to be worried to defend their opinions by those who are not trans. You should listen to them and try to understand, not dismiss them and yell at them to ignore their pain.

Click to shrink...

The OP's "bottom line" is just very poorly written and sounded like it was asking for specifically that people couldn't give their opinion.

Thanks for clarifying that this isn't the case.

Click to shrink...

Was it though? The very next line that you omitted made their intention very clear. But meh if you understand now then thats good

 

[Deepwater]

Too many on this forum like to give opinions on things that doesn't actually affect them, with little to no education about the things, and when given a contrary opinion from people who are educated and are affected...whine about how people are so hostile.

 

[Ketkat]

The OP's "bottom line" is just very poorly written and sounded like it was asking for specifically that people couldn't give their opinion.

Thanks for clarifying that this isn't the case.

Click to shrink...

I don't think that's what that bottom line is trying to say at all. The truth of the matter is, there are some situations that you aren't truly going to understand unless you've lived through it. I hear a lot about racism and I can see how it impacts people that it's directed at, but that doesn't mean that I truly understand it the same way that a racial minority does. If you have questions or want to understand a situation better, that's one thing. But there are so many times where cis people pop into these threads and tell us that we're ridiculous for being upset at these issues, that we need to let it slide since the person does a lot of good, or that we're just out to completely cancel people for speaking up about some criticisms that we have.

There are situations where it's okay to have an opinion but where you might need to take a step back and keep in mind that you're coming at the situation from a place of privilege or one where you don't truly have the full picture. I also want to say here that it's okay to not know everything about trans people or the things we go through, we certainly weren't born with all of that knowledge ourselves. The societies that we grow up in are inherently transphobic and it's pretty common to have some of those views, but that's all the more reason why you need to try and take a step back at times.

 

[NoName999]

I wonder if the clowns who whine about cancel culture ever had their friends or their fucking parents/caregivers call them out whenever they did something wrong.

Because holy shit some people literally can't take benign criticism.

Could you explain why this thread happened? Was there a specific inciting incident?

Without the context, it sounds like the OP is saying that non-trans people shouldn't be able to weigh in on trans rights on the forum. That to me seems ridiculous. What is the point of posting in a forum if not to come up against others' opinions (provided that they are non-hateful and otherwise within the forum guidelines)?

Click to shrink...

Honestly, would that really be so bad? Is keeping your mouth shut on some things really be that bad?

 

[Jeremy]

the problem to me is not dissenting opinions, it's the fact that cis people with no skin in the game feel as though they can determine what is or isn't transphobic for trans people. this leads to the opinions of trans folks getting dismissed entirely, especially if the responses are especially emotional. i don't really know how to articulate my point, but it is painfully clear to trans people when cis folks do not care about the issue and just want the problem to go away.

i think that if i were cis the best way to approach one of these discussions would not to jump in and immediately share my opinion. obviously if i weren't trans i wouldn't have as much of a connection to the topic, right? so i might be more willing to let something slide. i think cis people should take a step back and read what trans people are saying before coming to any conclusions. ask honest questions, do the research, listen to trans people, and don't speak for others.

i don't know, this post is kinda just a stream of consciousness, but i hope it makes sense.

Click to shrink...

Honestly, it makes a lot of sense... I didn't intend to derail the thread at all.

I just think that we all sometimes post "just a stream of consciousness," insofar as no one's postings should be taken as the sum of them, and often by posting about issues we work through our opinions on them. I get that some people might come across opinions that they don't share or might find hurtful or disappointing, but overall the notion of civic debate is productive, I find.

Also, I feel like most people who post in threads about trans issues on this forum are overwhelmingly supportive and do so, at worst, out of curiosity or ignorance and rarely out of malice, which was why I was curious if there was some shitty incident that prompted the thread.

... but yeah, enough from me.

 

[echoshifting]

Thanks for posting this thread. This happens in threads about bi issues as well.

I've learned a lot from the CP/Buck Angel/Lindsay controversy. I haven't posted much (if at all), but I'm reading. I didn't know anything about transmedicalism before all this happened, and I was floored to learn that Buck Angel is transphobic. I appreciate all the trans voices here for the education!

 

[Meatfist]

People just need to listen and think critically before posting, or just not post at all. I wasn't really exposed to LGBT+ folk until college, and I still have trouble understanding complex gender or trans rights issues. I'm glad that we have members who are able to sincerely answer questions and share their experiences, but ultimately it's not their responsibility to explain and validate their existence - it's on the rest of us to seek to understand their perspective.

"Them/they is confusing to use!" adds nothing to the conversation and makes you seem dismissive towards the concerns of our non-binary posters
"I don't think that was transphobic!" adds nothing to the conversation and makes you seem dismissive towards the concerns of our transgender posters
And so on and so forth

 

[Deleted member 2761]

I could not be more on board with Trans rights and I have no idea what forum drama prompted this thread, but this seems like a terrible bottom line... and a standard that I would not apply to any category of identity.

This is a public forum intended for discussion. If people want to question other posters, why shouldn't other posters be expected to defend their opinions, regardless of identity category.

If someone feels unfairly targeted, they have every right to express that, and if harrassment continues that's another issue entirely.

No one should have or expect that their viewpoint is the only defensible viewpoint, and if someone is being explicitly harrassed, we have mods to take care of that, don't we?

Click to shrink...

While that's a good view in theory, the reality is that the site primarily consists of cisgender heterosexual dudes. What actually happens in this case is that for every single trans opinion you have about a dozen cis opinions reiterating the same damn point. Speaking with experience regarding other topics, it is mentally exhausting it is having to fend off every single dismissive view with no end in sight.

What's worse, of this sort of harassment isn't often openly bigoted, but rather couched a very civilized sort of gaslighting (e.g. a post just saying "I don't see what's the big deal.") or very carefully phrased trollish non-sequitors (e.g. in a thread with people criticizing CfA for their stances on LGBTQIA issues, "Chik-fil-A is delicious!"). Often, these drive-by posters don't even come back to the thread. This sort of thing often (but not always) successfully evades bans. It's tiresome.

 

[rras1994]

It's been disheartening to see very recently how many threads have ended up with trans poster's being spoken over or derided. I've been trying not to post in such threads, and instead just listen and learn, because there are too many posters speaking over them and don't want to join them. I feel like I've learnt more by just listening and I appreciate the trans community in this forum who keeping on speaking even when they are met with such shittiness. You are all awesome.

 

[Rassilon]

Honestly, would that really be so bad? Is keeping your mouth shut on some things really be that bad?

Click to shrink...

i think that some unengaged folk tout out something crass in order to provoke a response - a response that directly addresses their particular ignorance, saving them the bother of just reading the thread

 

[Deleted member 42055]

What's worse, of this sort of harassment isn't often openly bigoted, but rather couched a very civilized sort of gaslighting (e.g. a post just saying "I don't see what's the big deal.") or very carefully phrased trollish non-sequitors (e.g. in a thread with people criticizing CfA for their stances on LGBTQIA issues, "Chik-fil-A is delicious!"). Often, these drive-by posters don't even come back to the thread. This sort of thing often (but not always) successfully evades bans. It's tiresome.

Click to shrink...

This this this

 

[alpha]

Nice OP. As a black man, I rarely post in trans threads because my goal is to read and learn.

Ketkat and Kyuuji especially have insightful posts and I'm happy to read them.

Click to shrink...

Same situation here. Cis black dude, so I just try to listen to concerns by reading the threads and learn what I can (the obvious don't be an asshole stuff is easy).

 

[Melhadf]

I agree.

Era's trans community is one of the smallest on the site, judging from the size of the TransEra thread, and its members should have the right to express their concerns without having to deal with dismissive nonsense.

Click to shrink...

We have a thread? I don't know how I missed that.

 

[lowmelody]

Pretty much, OP.

Endless crocodile tears and excuses based on intent at the expense of understanding impact.