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JasoNsider

Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,145
Canada
And did you listen to the concerns people have?

I couldnt access the EGS for several months since I am in China and Epic literally blocked chinese IPs.
People who want to play with their preferred gamepad cant play it.
People on Linux cant really play the exclusive games.
People like achievements and, when cloud saves werent there, want that.

There are a lot of reasons why people would rather play it on Steam or not at all.

Of course its just games, but I mean this is a videogame forum, where people literally make parties for a Super Smash brothers character trailer.

________________________________________________________________________________________________

I really think there is a disconnect between the customers (how big they can even be) and developers. Both have pretty good arguments in my opinion.

Of course I listened. How could any developer not? We've had this stuff crammed into any thread that is even tangentially related to EGS. "Ad nauseum" is the term that comes to mind. It's exhausting to have people constantly be responding like "are you not listening!?". Of course developers are listening. Frankly, people are making a mega mountain out of a molehill on this issue, and it becomes harder and harder to separate the decent takes from ones that flat out reads like parody. There are several posts in this thread that I actually couldn't tell if they were joking or not.

I am almost entirely in agreement with Schreier's tweet going around. Hearing the 6000th person yell about "anti competition" (which nearly blows my mind) is not really bringing anything new to the discussion at this point. I'm not sure how we move the discussion forward when people are this worked up about things like not having a shopping cart or achievements. My hope is that over time, people will just turn the volume down a bit and begrudgingly install the Epic launcher and play the games they love while Epic slowly trickles out nice-to-have features.
 
Apr 4, 2018
4,513
Vancouver, BC
Try to remember when things like these happen, that everyone and anyone can start an anonymous account on a message board, even if a site like this has a stronger barrier.

Anyone can be behind that avatar. Sociopaths, people with severe diseases, severe mental health issues, people are just having a really terrible day and aren't very self aware, even psychopaths.

No one with a sound mind would stoop that low, even if we have our moments of anger or upset. Try your best to avoid toxic discussion and arguments if you can.
 

ShadowAUS

Member
Feb 20, 2019
2,107
Australia
Haven´t that choice been taken away a long time ago, possibly never existed. I can´t buy and play DA Inquisition on Steam, but I´ve never heard the amount of hate towards EGS targeted at Origin for ex.
The difference here is that DA:I is a first party game, wholly funded by the store owners (EA) and not a 3rd party game that was acquired in the final stretch of development. Most people understand 1st party exclusives even if they don't like it (I certainly don't but I also don't begrudge publishers for it either), not to mention that 1st party exclusivity has been normalised on PC for a while now but 3rd party exclusivity hasn't ever succeeded on PC. Walled gardens are anathema to a lot of PC players who are on the platform because of the open nature, hence GFWL getting slapped down and the current EGS/Epic saga.

Regardless this is veering off topic as this thread isn't really about EGS but rather the "discussion" around it. I honestly think the idea of an EGS megathread is not a bad idea as this kind of general EGS discussion would be perfect for that rather than scattered over 100 threads like it is at the moment.
 

Fadewise

Member
Nov 5, 2017
3,210
I wish the gaming community as a whole would direct all that rage and anger towards exploitative microtransactions and gambling mechanics in games instead of the EGS. Compare to this, the EGS isn't that big of a deal. It's not like EGS can exploit the vulnerable and potentially ruin a person's financial wellbeing.

Guess where all that money to fund EGS moneyhats is coming from....
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,949
Haven´t that choice been taken away a long time ago, possibly never existed. I can´t buy and play DA Inquisition on Steam, but I´ve never heard the amount of hate towards EGS targeted at Origin for ex.

There's a simple explanation for this, and it's the same reason nobody batted an eye that Epic's launcher was required for Unreal Tournament five years ago. Or Fortnite requires Epic. It's the same reason why nobody minds that Diablo 3 is only on Battlenet, or Battlefield V is only Origin.

First party games are perfectly fine. It's been explained a zillion times in EGS threads, yet when it comes to PC everyone suddenly forgets what a first party game is, and why a company might want to sell their games exclusively on their launcher.

Meanwhile everybody understands why Mario isn't sold for PlayStation and God of War isn't on Switch.

EGS isn't locking down their games. Their locking down games that are third party, and that's the problem.

But Steam's the only place to buy some third party games! Yeah, and that's the decision on the publisher's part. Unlike Epic, Valve didn't pay to block the game on other launchers. BIG difference.
 

Shark

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,126
Raleigh, NC
Tim Sweeney has spent millions on forest conservation efforts against land developers in my state. If an inconvenient video game client is needed to continue for that to happen, I'm 100% for it.
 

Sankara

Alt Account
Banned
May 19, 2019
1,311
Paris
I totally agree. The shit I've seen against the PGI, the Mechwarrior 5 developers have been absolutely awful. These are from the exclusive preorder discord when the EGS deal was announced:

rmz00g6.jpg


6FoSjCf.jpg
di5iIo9.jpg

ZYKZvux.jpg



Remember, this is the discord where the developers are and interact with the community. Then there were a whole lot of tweets going directly at the CEO of the company - about how he's a coward, a liar, deserves to be homeless, how they'll pirate the game, etc.
 
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ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,949
I wish the gaming community as a whole would direct all that rage and anger towards exploitative microtransactions and gambling mechanics in games instead of the EGS. Compare to this, the EGS isn't that big of a deal. It's not like EGS can exploit the vulnerable and potentially ruin a person's financial wellbeing.

Microtransactions are the life blood of Epic. It's the entire reason they're capable of doing what they're doing, and I fully agree that something needs to be done about microtransaction, because it's going to hurt Epic big time.

And you can throw developer crunch in there as well, because Epic's guilty of that as well.
 

Tahnit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,965
I am so sick of this. It's a godamned pc gaming platform. That's it. There is no fucking conspiracy to ruin pc gaming or anything. Enough is enough.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,024
UK
Just look at this gem of a tweet... and then you wonder why there is so much toxicity surrounding EGS discussion. When a high profile gaming journo that is supposed to be respectable sides with devs/publishers and insults gamers/consumers, what do you expect is going to happen?

It's not toxic to be on the side of people making games, often in an unstable environment, where their next game flopping could mean they're broke and out of a job

It's not toxic to deem a situation where more developers are taken care of at the expense of a few missing features for consumers is a fair trade off

Now, Epic are not executing their business plan to simply look after devs, and they're also picking some games from huge devs to support, but a side effect of their plan is that a lot of developers can breathe easy and know that an element of risk has now been reduced, and they might even be able to make a better final product because of it

It's completely fair to look at that and worry about the long term future of the PC gaming market should Epic continue with this trajectory, and consumers are well within their rights to not support any developers that take a deal with Epic, but it's not toxic to hold the view that developers are not evil for taking these deals, and it's fine to empathise with the devs and to consider why they took the deal in the first place

Taking a side and calling everyone on the other side of the debate toxic, is pretty toxic, and will only lead to more abrasive discourse
 

neonneongod

Member
Feb 21, 2019
294
where do you think games come from

i mean

to put it brutally

i come first when it comes to my wallet and what it purchases

not the devs or publishers

EGS cutting out third party resellers is going to materially affect prices. It will not have the sheer amenities steam has for some time, if ever, so i am at best paying the same for less, if not more for less. Why am i expected to simply roll over and accept this? I'm not running a charity here - my discretionary income is far from infinite.
 

ev0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,425
Taking a side and calling everyone on the other side of the debate toxic, is pretty toxic, and will only lead to more abrasive discourse

I mean take a look at a lot of the replies since this thread was reopened and ppl posting up assuming that this thread is only about how toxic anti-EGS people are
 

Ionic

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,734
Tim Sweeney has spent millions on forest conservation efforts against land developers in my state. If an inconvenient video game client is needed to continue for that to happen, I'm 100% for it.

Tim's donations to ecological causes is nice, but he's also worth over 7 billion dollars so I'm not gonna say future commitment to the environment has to involve him being disruptive in the PC gaming space.
 

Surface of Me

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,207
I wish the gaming community as a whole would direct all that rage and anger towards exploitative microtransactions and gambling mechanics in games instead of the EGS. Compare to this, the EGS isn't that big of a deal. It's not like EGS can exploit the vulnerable and potentially ruin a person's financial wellbeing.

LMAO where do you think Epic is getting all the cash to pay devs? A terribly exploitative, colorful game targeted towards children.
 

Dog of Bork

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,988
Texas
I am so sick of this. It's a godamned pc gaming platform. That's it. There is no fucking conspiracy to ruin pc gaming or anything. Enough is enough.
It's cool to not care about something, but this is part of the problem. You're basically telling people their issues dont matter because you can't be arsed to know what you're taking about.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,602
As a developer, I try to stay out of EGS threads. They're wild.
 

Avitus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,914
I wish the gaming community as a whole would direct all that rage and anger towards exploitative microtransactions and gambling mechanics in games instead of the EGS. Compare to this, the EGS isn't that big of a deal. It's not like EGS can exploit the vulnerable and potentially ruin a person's financial wellbeing.

Epic developed the capacity to carve up the PC gaming landscape on the back of exploitative microtransactions.

As a developer, I try to stay out of EGS threads. They're wild.

People aren't happy with it because it provides no immediate benefit to the consumer while also having significant drawbacks. That should be plain as day to anyone arguing in good faith, yet we get 2,000 post long threads because people don't want to acknowledge it.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 42

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
16,939
I mean take a look at a lot of the replies since this thread was reopened and ppl posting up assuming that this thread is only about how toxic anti-EGS people are

This is the stuff I want to try to actively avoid. If people are just going to roll into a thread and push people over, then the cycle's just going to continue.
 

Bomblord

Self-requested ban
Banned
Jan 11, 2018
6,390
It's cool to not care about something, but this is part of the problem. You're basically telling people their issues dont matter because you can't be arsed to know what you're taking about.

Then I'll be the problem. Because I can't be arsed to participate in a farce that's literally got to the point of death threats towards the OP and threats of beating the devs who go onto the EGS as evidenced and documented in this thread.
 

neonneongod

Member
Feb 21, 2019
294
I wish the gaming community as a whole would direct all that rage and anger towards exploitative microtransactions and gambling mechanics in games instead of the EGS. Compare to this, the EGS isn't that big of a deal. It's not like EGS can exploit the vulnerable and potentially ruin a person's financial wellbeing.

you...you're aware of where the money is coming from for this in the first place right?
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,084
Then I'll be the problem. Because I can't be arsed to participate in a farce that's literally got to the point of death threats towards the OP and threats of beating the devs who go onto the EGS as evidenced and documented in this thread.
Theg fucking OP is the one asking you to do it though.
 

Dog of Bork

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,988
Texas
Then I'll be the problem. Because I can't be arsed to participate in a farce that's literally got to the point of death threats towards the OP and threats of beating the devs who go onto the EGS as evidenced and documented in this thread.
Then don't participate. Painting anyone with issues as the people who are acting like lunatics and sending death threats is ridiculous. Instead of scoffing at those who make well-reasoned or level-headed posts by grouping them in with bad actors, maybe discussing in good faith or just bowing out is a better choice.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,602
People aren't happy with it because it provides no immediate benefit to the consumer while also having significant drawbacks. That should be plain as day to anyone arguing in good faith, yet we get 2,000 post long threads because people don't want to acknowledge it.
Bro, I didn't even give my opinions on it. I just said they're wild, and I stay out.
 

Tahnit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,965
It's cool to not care about something, but this is part of the problem. You're basically telling people their issues dont matter because you can't be arsed to know what you're taking about.

What I am saying is people are blowing it out of proportion. Having some concerns is ok. Not buying games because they are on the store Is a personal choice. But calling it the end of pc gaming/Chinese spies Ect is just way too much. The hate I'm seeing towards developers of indie games for example is stupid. These indie devs would be fighting miles of pure garbage on steam to get noticed so yeah, no shit they go to EGS and switch. They make more money and generate word of mouth easier.

There is having concerns and then using those concerns to spread hate.
 

Bomblord

Self-requested ban
Banned
Jan 11, 2018
6,390
Theg fucking OP is the one asking you to do it though.

I've been refusing to attack anyone personally, the little discussion I've done recently has been in what I believe are good intentions, I have not enabled trolls by arguing with them, and have been reporting trolling and overly hostile posts as I see them. Just as the OP asks.

Then don't participate. Painting anyone with issues as the people who are acting like lunatics and sending death threats is ridiculous. Instead of scoffing at those who make well-reasoned or level-headed posts by grouping them in with bad actors, maybe discussing in good faith or just bowing out is a better choice.

You're right just sometimes things get to me to the point where I feel the need to post and always regret it. Bowing out now.
 
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MP!

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,198
Las Vegas
I totally agree. The shit I've seen against the PGI, the Mechwarrior 5 developers have been absolutely awful. These are from the exclusive preorder discord when the EGS deal was announced:

rmz00g6.jpg


6FoSjCf.jpg
di5iIo9.jpg

ZYKZvux.jpg



Remember, this is the discord where the developers are and interact with the community. Then there were a whole lot of tweets going directly at the CEO of the company - about how he's a coward, a liar, deserves to be homeless, how they'll pirate the game, etc.
this crap happens so much in many threads... not just related to EGS... it's embarrassing actually ...
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
Agreed, it's really tiresome at this point. The discussions are just so toxic that I mostly just read for the unintentionally funny takes.

But I think part of the reason is that only people who are more extreme about this for one side or the other that still want to engage in this discussion over and over again at this point. Most people just moved on, whether they want to use the EGS or not.

Just look at Control, for example, most of the posts in any Control thread are always about the game itself. They're not very positive, unfortunately, as Era doesn't seem very fond of the game, but they're still about the game. There's always one or two posts saying they won't buy it because of EGS, but then they and everyone else move on, it doesn't get toxic. I think that's largely related to the fact that Remedy didn't really say anything about it. Didn't come out defending anything or attacking anyone, they just took the deal along with 505 and that was it. End of story. We need more publishers/devs doing this, in my opinion.
 

Shark

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,126
Raleigh, NC
It's completely fair to look at that and worry about the long term future of the PC gaming market should Epic continue with this trajectory, and consumers are well within their rights to not support any developers that take a deal with Epic, but it's not toxic to hold the view that developers are not evil for taking these deals, and it's fine to empathise with the devs and to consider why they took the deal in the first place
I wish the gaming community as a whole would clean itself up first and maybe a lot more of the causes taken up by the angry mob with some legitimacy (like this) wouldn't be dismissed as being the latest flavor of the month gamer rage.

I couldn't believe how many people here thought that Ooblets blog post was speaking directly to them and not the dev harassing, anti-women/minorities force that always causes a scene.
 

Sankara

Alt Account
Banned
May 19, 2019
1,311
Paris
User banned (3 days): inflammatory point of comparison
I've avoided the topic. I agree there are a lot of toxic people surrounding it. Honestly the topic has reminded me of all those 'gamegate and gaming journalist are trash' people. Social media has created a herd mentality with some topics like this.

Yep, very similar dynamics in terms of harassment and consumer entitlement. Unfortunately I've seen some good, decent people fall for it as well, and then align themselves with Gamergate Youtubers and taking the side of gamers harassing the developers. It's gross.
 

modoversus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,674
México
Microtransactions and loot boxes are bad, but let's not pretend that the virulent, hostile and toxic reactions to the EGS are because of Epic's microtransactions.
 

XR.

Member
Nov 22, 2018
6,582
Tim Sweeney has spent millions on forest conservation efforts against land developers in my state. If an inconvenient video game client is needed to continue for that to happen, I'm 100% for it.
That's all well and good, but that's not due to EGS; that is more likely thanks to Fortnite's success. EGS is far from being profitable at this point.
 

Shark

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,126
Raleigh, NC
That's all well and good, but that's not due to EGS; that is very much thanks to Fortnite's success. EGS is far from being profitable at this point.
Which is why I said if its needed to continue. Tim was wealthy long before Fortnite. I'm glad the least consequential part of that post is being nitpicked though.
 

Cecil

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,447
I wish the gaming community as a whole would direct all that rage and anger towards exploitative microtransactions and gambling mechanics in games instead of the EGS. Compare to this, the EGS isn't that big of a deal. It's not like EGS can exploit the vulnerable and potentially ruin a person's financial wellbeing.

Lootboxes and microtransactions always get a lot of heat, critique and rage. People have the ability to care about several things, and EGS is not getting in the way of that.
 

TheDarkKnight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,529
I agree personal responsibility in posting behavior is the goal. But with the internet, even this smaller subset, I think the only way to truly build that has to come from steady and consistent moderation. There's a reason you don't see personal attacks on this board, or slurs, etc. A line was drawn and that shit was shut down quickly and consistently. Even console warring is much less an issue than a lot of the internet for similar reasons.

I think a way to move things in a better direction is for The moderation team to treat EGS, Gog, steam etc in the same vein as what console warring and moderate accordingly. You may disagree that it's the same but the fact remains it needs to be treated as such, because people posting about it are behaving as such. It's time to deal with the reality of the situation. Each of these "launchers" has built up its own ecosystem with their own friends lists, you're not necessarily able to play together across ecosystems, they have different features, etc. The difference is a pc unlike a console can run multiple ecosystems simultaneously. But the fact remains people will have a preference because of it. In addition and you have one upstart "console" actively pulling anticipated games announced for one "console" to another. In Many cases right before release.

I understand how this became a blind spot when EGS came onto the scene. We hadn't seen anything like this before. But this is where we are now and more needs to be done besides "See Mod Post". it's not going away anytime soon

- So new game announcements that are EGS exclusive, need to be treated like any 3rd party game announced exclively to a console. No steam "port begging". No "game is delayed a year. Or see ya in a year post". No steam discussion at all. No meta commentary, keep it about the game itself. Same with when it launches

- When a Mechwarrior 5 switches to EGS from steam close to launch moderate it like if suddenly a game moved from PS4 to XB1 or vice versa. Shut down any "it's just a launcher talk". Shut down the posters smugly stoking the fires about how above it all (which just makes it worse) or wandering in going "I don't get the big deal".
- Likewise shut down the virtrol from the ant-EGS side. You can have discussions without everything billing down to F Epic or whatever. I've seen it you just usually have to wade through a lot
- Also just like console warring you know the instigators are that always show up on each side of the argument. So watch for them and don't let them start fires
 

zashga

Losing is fun
Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,198
I agree that the discourse surrounding EGS is toxic and hinders real discussion. Advocating piracy and threatening people is absolutely not OK. We don't see a lot of that here because it's banned and strictly moderated, but we do see an awful lot of trolling, drive by posts, and tired arguments that get brought up, shot down, and resurrected page after page by people who either live under a rock or choose to intentionally shit up the discussion. Take a look at how many "it's just a launcher guys" posts we already have in this thread alone.

For the record, I personally find Epic's business practices (both snatching exclusives off of Steam and also the magic money tree that is Fortnite) to be very unethical, and I don't support them. I'd also never pirate a game or attack someone personally because they made a rational decision to take Epic's offer of up front financial security in a difficult, unstable business. The only villain in this story is Epic, and even then "villain" is too strong a word.
 

Sidebuster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,406
California
Saying vitriol, hostility, and toxicity (which included death threats and trying to lose someone their job) are equal to MTX is so dumb, please don't.

What? I'm not meaning to compare the two. It's and obvious given that vitriol, hostility and toxicity are bad. Add to the list micro transactions. We have the ability to hold many things up as bad to our well being after all.
 

modoversus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,674
México
EGS is a store because of those micro transactions. Micro transactions that may be detrimental to society and exploitative to children.

I don't think that is the reason people were calling developrs who accepted the EGS deal "trash humans" and "sick fucks" in this forum. Nor do I see any sort of protest or boycott for games that use Epic's Unreal Engine. It's an argument created after the fact for a "gotcha!" moment.
 

Grain Silo

Member
Dec 15, 2017
2,509
I stay mostly silent for these discussions because while I don't like EGS because I think exclusivity contracts for PC gaming storefronts is dumb as it's inherently anti-consumer, it's still just a storefront and there's no real substantive unfairness leveled at the consumer to play something that's EGS-exclusive other than installing the application. In addition, I understand that these exclusivity deals are typically too good to pass up for developers and its revenue split is also a real long-term benefit for them.

The problem is the developer side of the conversation is at an inherent disadvantage here because the ratio in sheer numbers between slightly inconvenienced consumers and greatly benefited developers is massive, and I think that the most hyperbolic and vile messaging on the consumer side is very loud and poisons the discussion. So I could complain in every new thread about [game] being EGS-exclusive as someone who has been happily using Steam for a decade and prefer to keep all my games in one place and be given a choice of what store to support, but it doesn't add anything and I feel like I'd just be contributing to a poisonous argument.
 

samred

Amico fun conversationalist
Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,585
Seattle, WA
I for one would appreciate if this somehow became a rule: that EGS/Steam threads stop hinging on a single person's opinion on the storefronts. If someone isn't coming forward with specific information or news, and they're being quoted with an opinion about how games are sold online, then the thread can all the more quickly revolve around a single person's track record, personality, and so on. What at this point makes their opinion worth devoting an entire thread to?
 

ChippyTurtle

Banned
Oct 13, 2018
4,773
Toxicity in this case I would define as obsessing and bad mouthing Epic really loudly and mean.

Anyone who says nah I don't want to buy from EGS. Clad yourself on the back, those who curse or call Epic the bane of gaming, your being really hyperbolic.

With that said I think the most fairest opinion is simply this (and it's my own). If the game makes me want it from the EGS, I'll buy it. If it does not then I'll wait until Steam sells it and only when on sale.

I brought Afterparty off EGS, cause I love Oxenfree. But any Ubisoft game? Nope, I don't like having both launchers open at the same time. I tolerate Steam. EGS also lacks things like download limits, etc etc. If the day comes they get better, maybe I'll shift my stance, otherwise it's only if I really want the game.

I don't mind exclusives it's the same as Sony and MS, Origin and UPlay. I really don't mind developers getting money. But this a luxury hobby, if EGS makes me go "ehh" so the better.
 

Deleted member 6730

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,526
I don't appreciate toxicity and neither should anyone but I feel like we need a catch all "why the epic store is so disliked" thread to lay everyone's grievances out and provide a point of reference to understand why some of us don't like it for reasons that aren't "because it's another .exe" so long as it's moderated well and everyone can come in good faith. There is an actual discussion to be had with what Epic is doing, big tech's ever growing influence on gaming with initiatives such as EGS and what Epic should do to actually make their storefront worth using because as of now, there's nothing worth using it over steam outside of a few timed exclusives. Unfortunately every time something is announced for EGS it's rooted into tribalistic non-sense on one side, and dismissal of all complaints because they're being lumped in with said tribalistic non-sense on the other.

No, we shouldn't bad mouth developers for taking deals, it's their business and if they feel like it would benefit their buisness who are we to speak for them. But we should also understand that Epic Games isn't a charity, are not the underdog in anyway and their tactics are very monopolistic (note that this is different than being a monopoly but still not as good).
 
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