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PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,458
There has to be an even balance between the wants of devs and the wants of consumers without either side resorting to just dismissing the other. The continued insistence that being anti-EGS is being toxic, as the Ooblets guy very clearly is insinuating, is not helping at all.

Everyone is insinuating the other side is toxic. Both the pro-EGS and anti-EGS blocs are screaming at each other and it's not going to get better until both sides acknowledge that they're taking this whole debate far too seriously. That's the problem - both sides of the argument can't see two feet in front of their face and are convinced that their criticisms are justified and the other side just doesn't get it, or worse.

Regardless of which side you're on you're going to point to the most extreme examples of the other side as a sign that they're the bad guys. And as long as the gaming community is factioned into these hyper-partisan camps ("ARE YOU FOR OR AGAINST!?") it's never going to improve.

At the end of the day, it's just video games.
 

Fid

Member
Jun 5, 2018
254
Detroit
I think you framing this as it only at the level of conversation as a console war is really unfair.

There are always warriors but I see a lot of well thought out posts too.

This was true of console wars as well. It might still be true, tbh, but I've had the pleasure of not engaging with anything like a console war for a long time... well, until now.

It's not as simple as that. Imagine it's 1991 and every time someone makes a thread about a SNES game 5 people come in and post "The SNES is so slow and doesn't have BLAST PROCESSING"

Then the thread would devolve into people talking about that being marketing and not a real thing, people talking about specs, and people trolling to stoke the fires

That is pretty much what happens in EGS threads when people say "It's just another launcher"
I agree, but you could also replace "SNES" with EGS and "Blast Processing" with a talking point from that pdf and that's also true. Which is why maybe we shouldn't be rehashing these discussions at all anymore on either side?
 

True Prophecy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,920
Growing pains. People are mad for two reasons, I think: the first being the obvious "The store sucks." It does. I use it every day to play games I bought on EGS (well, not every day, but plenty) and for Fortnite when I get around to it. Finding games is hard since it's a big-ass scroll wheel and page with no delineation of what's out and what's not, new, old, etc. I mean, I could go on about how it sucks, not least of which because I am a customer of Epic. I've bought into their platform, and my use informs the "it sucks" opinion. But, just like people don't have to smoke cigarettes themselves to learn that smoking is bad, so too do people not have to be an EGS customer like myself to know this.

The second reason is a bit stranger: I think most people know that what Epic is doing works, and it's strong-arming them. It's working more-or-less just like Epic said it would; they toss around their giant E-dick pinata stuffed with Fortnite monies, little indy children smack it a couple times, and out the front blows enough cash to get people to sign on any dotted line in front of them. Eventually they'll hit that one game you were *really* invested in, emotionally, and you'll probably (though not always, you principled few) bend and break. It's scary to realize that EGS isn't trying to "break" in anymore, they've already more-or-less done it, and all it took was shitting on consumers faces and preying on the fear of developers to get there. 'murica!

Okay, so why am I using it if I think it's shit and feel all sorta ways about it? One, I'm not, like, a super principled person. Hell, I broke the second I saw a Supergiant game, duders. That was, like, day 1, or something. The other reason is their free-game stuff; I have this library composed, now, primarily of free games. And not, like, $2 games. Say what you will, but on a consumer front, the free games thing has been kinda awesome, even if it's just another tactic as far as Epic's concerned. Also, the knowledge that exclusives are going this way means that I get to play them without waiting a year so they can sit in my other game library. I have a finite life-span, so I'm not willing to wait a year to tell Epic to fuck themselves.

BUT. Fuck telling other people what to do with their money and their time. If they don't want to give Epic a cent, I'm not going to try to make them feel differently about what Epic is doing. I mean, you know, they're mostly right about it. It is information collection, it is -- right now -- mostly anti-consumer, it is making games unavailable to many, it is run by near as I can tell a manchild. Steam is a way better store. We need to be able to acknowledge why people are making decisions for themselves as consumers, and not like totally lose our shit about that. So, yeah, I agree with the broader criticism of, we're losing a bit of our soul in this discussion. But I also know for a fact that the passion people have about how badly the Epic store sucks isn't made out of thin air. Look, I hate the term "both sides" for reasons anyone in Off-topic would understand, but maybe it applies here: maybe I'll learn from you, you'll learn from me, and we'll meet somewhere in a middle that says "Epic store sucks" but that's ok. It's ok.

Good post!

It's funny I've only got more principled as ingot older as I used to just not care about such things. But for some reason the way it's all been handled I just feel bad supporting epics tactics.

Your right about us folks that don't like what they are doing ultimately not mattering though its happened and it won't ever be stopping.

I just hope the year break makes the games better and it helps me get through my backlog lol.
 

IDreamOfHime

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,414
Some of those threats are worthy of a call to the authorities. I always try a little to see the other side of the argument, but I just can't here. It's just a launcher. Maybe it's 35 years as a console gamer and multiple times buying a console just for one game. Schreier's tweets about devs securing pay for their workers and the future of their company? How can you be mad?
 

Futaleufu

Banned
Jan 12, 2018
3,910
Just because some asshole issued death threats to a developer doesnt mean that the "it's just another launcher" gets a clean slate as an argument.
 

Bomblord

Self-requested ban
Banned
Jan 11, 2018
6,390
I'll remember how this thread was handled for a long time.

EGS using SteamVR for Tetris Effect

OP got banned for defending himself, while aggressively, for being insinuated as a racist because "We get it, you don't like EGS, because China I guess.".

The poster that made those allegations edited her post right after OP was banned and got away scot-free. I still don't understand how that happened.

I think it's fair to say that guidelines for EGS threads need to be clearer and applied in a more fair manner, no matter the user. That way perhaps everyone could behave properly.

That's pretty much my last input here for any EGS matters, because those threads end up being messes more often than not.

I was actively following that discussion an apology post was written and the original post edited to remove the china comment before the ban happened. In fact the poster who was being argued with hasn't posted since that argument.
 
Jun 2, 2019
4,947
I have been saying this from the start, but (Sorry, not reading through 13 pages of thread) you don't have to buy new hardware to play EGS games, so the disproportionate hate is silly, and you refuse to buy a game in the EGS then maybe you didn't want it that much.

And yes, EGS discussion has reached critical mass, it's time for it to stop, but I doubt it will ever end
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,080
Halifax, NS
That's not a realistic take on the situation.

"Like, I get it, you hate Epic because China or competition or whatever " they didn't only say you don't like because of China. They listed off some of the common complaints.

It's not like that was pulled out of their ass. There's a post complaining about Tencent / China on the first page of this very thread.


You know that user followed up with an apology that included this right?

It's definitely not the case that anyone else complaining about EGS has ever mentioned china, so it would be absurd for me to suggest it was involved in anyone's personal politics here.

They were 100% insinuating that racism was a "primary" factor in EGS hate and gave a half ass apology that somehow was accepted. It's not a high point for moderating EGS threads.
 

Gentlemen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,503
Crossposting from the PC ERA Discord and the other thread. A decent summary of the main points some of us truly take issue with.


this doesn't belong in this thread, where the point is to actually workshop a way to improve the way we discuss games, not to copy and paste discussions from other threads about other topics.
 

Magnus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,357
I had no idea the toxicity of this conversation had gone so far. It's a video game storefront. Jesus. Thanks for bringing this up OP.
 

Airbar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,564
I have been saying this from the start, but (Sorry, not reading through 13 pages of thread) you don't have to buy new hardware to play EGS games, so the disproportionate hate is silly, and you refuse to buy a game in the EGS then maybe you didn't want it that much.

And yes, EGS discussion has reached critical mass, it's time for it to stop, but I doubt it will ever end
I have to buy new software that costs more than an XBox One S to play EGS games. May not be a problem to you but stop peddling nonsense generalizations that don't apply to everybody.
 

TSM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,821
Everyone is insinuating the other side is toxic. Both the pro-EGS and anti-EGS blocs are screaming at each other and it's not going to get better until both sides acknowledge that they're taking this whole debate far too seriously. That's the problem - both sides of the argument can't see two feet in front of their face and are convinced that their criticisms are justified and the other side just doesn't get it, or worse.

Regardless of which side you're on you're going to point to the most extreme examples of the other side as a sign that they're the bad guys. And as long as the gaming community is factioned into these hyper-partisan camps ("ARE YOU FOR OR AGAINST!?") it's never going to improve.

At the end of the day, it's just video games.

People aren't allowed to console war and the forum is better for it. That blueprint could be used to stamp out the constant storefront warring.
 

OnionPowder

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,323
Orlando, FL
So would it be okay to say all US Americans are racists because Trump is? The user who insinuated the racism hasn't posted a single time outside of that single thread makes it transparent as hell. Yes there are crazies who do get racist towards China (though I sometimes fail to understand how critizing Tencent equates to being racist against Chinese) but those get banned almost immediately.

The fears of Tencent are founded in the fear of the Chinese Government controlling your data. It's a common sentiment held on reddit. It also feels a bit one sided since those same complaints are not made about Discord, which also has ownership from Tencent.

I don't think the generalizations are always fair, but to say that person was only directly accusing of racism is a bit of a stretch. That is what the person I quoted it framed it as.

You know that user followed up with an apology that included this right?



They were 100% insinuating that racism was a "primary" factor in EGS hate and gave a half ass apology that somehow was accepted.

That was an apology forced out after they were directly accused of calling somebody a racist. It was more of a general claim, as it pops up a LOT in other circles.
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,823
The simplest "solution" would be to ban discussion or promotion of the EGS.

Of course it's not really a solution, because there's plenty of toxicity to go around on other topics, but it would dampen down a flashpoint.

Op has repeatedly said these are outliers and not the norm or day to day. This is a good thread to remind people to chill out but I think some on either side are using it as ammunition to call the otherside toxic and this was bound to happen. It's certainly a toxic discussion elsewhere from both sides but around here it isn't imo. Overall current moderation always does well in keeping people from going at each other too hard.
 

True Prophecy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,920
I have been saying this from the start, but (Sorry, not reading through 13 pages of thread) you don't have to buy new hardware to play EGS games, so the disproportionate hate is silly, and you refuse to buy a game in the EGS then maybe you didn't want it that much.

And yes, EGS discussion has reached critical mass, it's time for it to stop, but I doubt it will ever end

I think it's silly to say that's simply because it's on the same hardware that all software is equal or that shitty business practises everyone should be ok with simply because it's not a big deal to you.

EGS discussions should be valid for as long as it's news. A 3rd party game going exclusive for any reason is news.

The point of this thread is we don't have to be assholes to each other to talk about it.
 

T002 Tyrant

Member
Nov 8, 2018
8,934
This is why I've tried to avoid defending the EGS store because of people on this forum. There's a lot of toxic behaviour full stop in all honesty.
 

Dick Justice

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,542
User Banned (permanent): Misrepresenting moderator actions, mod whining over a series of posts. History of infractions.
No shit it's toxic. Even the mods like to troll the PC community, to the point that it's no wonder a ton of them decided to leave the site. It's incredibly obvious that the mods fall on a particular side of this if you pay attention to who they decide to ban and how they conduct themselves. Every EGS thread features the same old trolls saying the same old shit, and nothing changes.
 

Deleted member 8468

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
9,109
I'll remember how this thread was handled for a long time.

EGS using SteamVR for Tetris Effect

OP got banned for defending himself, while aggressively, for being insinuated as a racist because "We get it, you don't like EGS, because China I guess.".

The poster that made those allegations edited her post right after OP was banned and got away scot-free. I still don't understand how that happened.

I think it's fair to say that guidelines for EGS threads need to be clearer and applied in a more fair manner, no matter the user. That way perhaps everyone could behave properly.

That's pretty much my last input here for any EGS matters, because those threads end up being messes more often than not.
It's a damn shame. I hope we don't lose that OP over this too, he's an insightful poster here full of cool unique info.
 

Cooking

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,451
I'm gonna think on this and save my input for later, because my immediate reaction is that it's hard for me to see this thread as anything but a place for gaslighting EGS skeptics, after the way you tried to make some of these points the other night. In the cloud save thread, where you openly blamed EGS skeptics for not showing up in droves to praise Epic for deploying a core feature many months later than they had promised they would, and framed that hesitation as evidence of our toxicity, of our need to hate. Those posts brought me the closest I've come to just walking away from this community for good, and I'm still here sitting on that fence.

Well said.
 

Fid

Member
Jun 5, 2018
254
Detroit
I have been saying this from the start, but (Sorry, not reading through 13 pages of thread) you don't have to buy new hardware to play EGS games, so the disproportionate hate is silly, and you refuse to buy a game in the EGS then maybe you didn't want it that much.

And yes, EGS discussion has reached critical mass, it's time for it to stop, but I doubt it will ever end
Pardon my ignorance on this bit, but are there any of these deals that are exclusive in perpetuity and not just timed exclusive? Because I said this earlier, but where a lot of the arguments break down for me is "I'm mad I have to wait to play this on my preferred platform" which while a perfectly understandable feeling to have, doesn't come close to justifying the kind of sustained negativity we've seen.
 

Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,928
I'm gonna outright say that I don't really appreciate being accused of gaslighting people with this thread

I didn't exactly take a lot of joy in making it
I definitely didn't want to try to relive all the personal stuff that came my way, that's for certain

Gaslighting implies emotional manipulation
I wish I had waited to make the full post before hitting 'reply', but I stand by my words. I don't know how I ought to feel because I was like, pretty close to having myself permed after watching the discussion unfold in that cloud save thread, a series of posts and points that felt distinctly opportunistic and was hard for me to read as anything but gaslighting. That's why I'm reserving judgement for now. Your OP reads genuine, but a lot of the discussion in here is playing out just like I thought it would before I clicked. So I mostly just want to see where this goes, and if this thread ends up indicating to me that PC game discussion is never gonna get better here, then I may as well walk and save y'all the trouble of putting up with me and mine.
 

Pryme

Member
Aug 23, 2018
8,164
I'm gonna think on this and save my input for later, because my immediate reaction is that it's hard for me to see this thread as anything but a place for gaslighting EGS skeptics, after the way you tried to make some of these points the other night. In the cloud save thread, where you openly blamed EGS skeptics for not showing up in droves to praise Epic for deploying a core feature many months later than they had promised they would, and framed that hesitation as evidence of our toxicity, of our need to hate. Those posts brought me the closest I've come to just walking away from this community for good, and I'm still here sitting on that fence.

OP posts about getting doxxed and receiving death threats and you immediately assume it's a gambit in an argument to 'gaslight EGS skeptics'?

Why?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being skeptical about the EGS. There is everything wrong with expressing that skepticism in a toxic fashion, and we've seen that happen repeatedly.
 

PixelatedDonut

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,966
Philly ❤️
Bronson I feel like you've been here long enough to know that form of discorse isn't exclusive to epic games store, we have a very vocal part of our community who are inept in any kind of social skills. Hell I just had someone make a super passive aggressive comment at me because I said Ubisoft games are heavily spu dependent. Some people are extremely toxic for some reason.
 

Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,928
OP posts about getting doxxed and receiving death threats and you immediately assume it's a gambit in an argument to 'gaslight EGS skeptics'?

Why?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being skeptical about the EGS. There is everything wrong with expressing that skepticism in a toxic fashion, and we've seen that happen repeatedly.
🤔
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,018
Just because some asshole issued death threats to a developer doesnt mean that the "it's just another launcher" gets a clean slate as an argument.

But it is just another launcher and your personal storefront preference is objectively less important an issue than a member of your community getting harassment and death threats over it.
 

Zackat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,021
I agree. It is completely absurd. I don't even bother clicking on a thread with EGS in the title because of it. All you will find there is garbage discourse led by emotions.
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
I wish I had waited to make the full post before hitting 'reply', but I stand by my words. I don't know how I ought to feel because I was like, pretty close to having myself permed after watching the discussion unfold in that cloud save thread, a series of posts and points that felt distinctly opportunistic and was hard for me to read as anything but gaslighting. That's why I'm reserving judgement for now. Your OP reads genuine, but a lot of the discussion in here is playing out just like I thought it would before I clicked. So I mostly just want to see where this goes, and if this thread ends up indicating to me that PC game discussion is never gonna get better here, then I may as well walk and save y'all the trouble of putting up with me and mine.
I dont think you know what gaslighting means if that's your takeaway.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 42

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
16,939
I wish I had waited to make the full post before hitting 'reply', but I stand by my words.

You surely see how that would be a hurtful accusation for me, right

We are specifically talking about the outliers where people go too far.

Bronson I feel like you've been here long enough to know that form of discorse isn't exclusive to epic games store, we have a very vocal part of our community who are inept in any kind of social skills. Hell I just had someone make a super passive aggressive comment at me because I said Ubisoft games are heavily spu dependent. Some people are extremely toxic for some reason.

It's worse now than it's ever been though. It sucks on ice but I'm not just gonna be like 'well fuck this, I'mma drag everyone down to hell'

We gotta change our thinking, and I gotta change what I do. Change starts from inward. Things won't get better if I don't self-reflect and see what got me to this point, ya?
 

snail_maze

Member
Oct 27, 2017
974
I really don't see how this can be corrected by anyone other than the mods. Of course it should be up to the individual posters to have basic decency and argue in good faith but if that isn't the case then what else can you do other than ban them?
 

focusedmaple

Member
Oct 27, 2017
207
If your concerns are centered around your convenience versus developers being able to make a living, you don't actually support the game industry.

That said, moving platforms is a pain and using influence to promote your platform is a scum move. Like making online DRM necessary with a major release, as steam did with Half Life 2.
 

Horns

Member
Dec 7, 2018
2,513
User Banned (3 days): Inflammatory Point of Comparison
I've avoided the topic. I agree there are a lot of toxic people surrounding it. Honestly the topic has reminded me of all those 'gamegate and gaming journalist are trash' people. Social media has created a herd mentality with some topics like this.
 

qrac

Member
Nov 13, 2017
752
I left the discussions long time ago, they are just going in circles, apparently in a downwards circle. What kind of people even threaten someone about something as ridiculous as a game???

Nowadays I just enjoy the free games and skip the threads.
 

Yippiekai

The Fallen
May 28, 2018
1,475
Toulouse, France
I dunno. Honestly, I don't think anyone here is truly offended or slighted by his (very mild) snark, they're just annoyed he isn't budging in his stance.

I feel like people here are saying "Jason isn't engaging, he's not hearing the points we're making". And I honestly think his response would be "No no trust me, I've heard you every time, and I know the exact points your making, I just do not and will not agree because I prioritize other ideas in this issue".

I truly think some people here (not necessarily you, Yippiekai), are just annoyed that a person that Era generally favors quite a bit is suddenly now on the other side of the common perception, and in this case they're latching on to some (again, very mild) snark as a way of making a bigger issue where there isn't one. But that's just my opinion.

Yeah, I can understand he might not agree with points against EGS. What I would prefer is him debunking those points with arguments. Being snarky and condescendant and then say he has a right to do so because some people on the internet are mean is immature.

This is just you, a stranger, saying what somebody else's job should be. Journalists editorialize on twitter because it isn't their job.

Ok, let me rephrase that because I think my point wasn't clear.

He is a journalist. Whether or not he is at work, I hope he knows how to make a point and how to not only look at one side of a problem before publishing something. It's his work to know how to make a case for something he thinks is worth saying.

Right now, he completely missed that in his tweet by being childish against part of the people who reads him.
 

snail_maze

Member
Oct 27, 2017
974
If your concerns are centered around your convenience versus developers being able to make a living, you don't actually support the game industry.
IMO supporting the act of removing games off of multiple storefronts is more damaging to the industry as a whole than individual studios going under but that really isn't what this topic is about
 

Deleted member 18742

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,834
It's pretty embarrassing tbh. Outrage and spoiler culture are just the worst.

Most people on here fail to realize that people with emotions and feelings are behind their words.
 

Dick Justice

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,542

He just can't help himself when it comes to being a snarky asswipe. Devs care about what they want, consumers care about what they want. No shit. Proper rocket science right there. Trying to elicit sympathy for the devs while casually dismissing the concerns of the users sums up the general situation.
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,978
I mean, yeah? Sorry all your game application icons may get split across a couple computer programs and whatever mental damage that inflicts, but you young whippersnappers probably weren't around to cycle 4 disks installing through a system and then having to solve a physical cryptogram to even play a game.

Its all felt like when a toddler turns around and makes a pouty face over a monitor not being a touch screen. Get past it, move on.

When things like this go unpunished the toxic atmosphere only thrives.
 

PixelatedDonut

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,966
Philly ❤️
You surely see how that would be a hurtful accusation for me, right

We are specifically talking about the outliers where people go too far.



It's worse now than it's ever been though. It sucks on ice but I'm not just gonna be like 'well fuck this, I'mma drag everyone down to hell'

We gotta change our thinking, and I gotta change what I do. Change starts from inward. Things won't get better if I don't self-reflect and see what got me to this point, ya?
Oh brother I'm right there with with you.....I'll do my best to help improve discorse here. But at some point some people just need go, mods need to ban people for some of the supid shit that they type. And it needs to be permanent, if you can't come into any thread without picking fights or harassing people you need to go.
 

weebro

Banned
Nov 7, 2018
1,191
User Banned (2 weeks): Inflammatory generalizations against the community, attacking moderation. History of similar infractions.
Maybe its time everyone here came to terms with the fact that this community is extremely toxic. Just because the website attracts a certain demographic doesn't change that fact. Most times I don't even want to post something (including this post) because I just know I'm gonna get an aggressive and emotionally charged response so I've went back to mostly posting memes, that's all this place is good for without one losing their mind.

Even that previous administrator, SweetNicole came out and said some not so nice stuff about the community in the Etika suicide thread as soon as they weren't part of the mod team anymore which makes me wonder how the mods really view the community behind closed doors. But you know what, they enabled this, this is their monster. Apparently its OK to be as toxic as you want as long as you adhere to the website mantra.

For the average sensible person who just wants to have game discussions without it becoming toxic and politically charged everytime, we have nowhere to go. GAF has become a turdstain and ERA is too busy tearing itself apart. I hope things get better but after 2 years its obvious the problem has spiraled out of control and the mods have no answer (with how unprofessional and unqualified some of them act, I also have to question the vetting process and the people selecting the mods)
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,669
And you are ignorant to why people like me have an issue with the EGS. Shit gets tiring. To a small subset of PC gamers it is a platform issue and an XBox is cheaper for me than the EGS.
I get that Linux users have a legitimate gripe, but that, like you said, seems to be a very small subset of users. I'm more speaking to people using Windows.
 
May 25, 2019
6,025
London
IMO supporting the act of removing games off of multiple storefronts is more damaging to the industry as a whole than individual studios going under but that really isn't what this topic is about

This reads like "the ability to buy a game in a more limited fashion is worse than that game never existing at all"

Take notice of games that sign EGS exclusivity deals and then also launch on Game Pass. Ashen was one; Metro Exodus (on PC) was another. Its tough out there being a developer. I don't fault anybody for wanting to be able to pay their bills
 

entrydenied

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
7,557
I completely agree with Bronson on this. Moderation on resetera has overall been very solid but the EGS threads are ridiculous and I've stopped even bothering to read them. I agree with poster above, we need to apply the port begging rules to complaining about egs exclusives and the really vitriolic posters need to start getting bans.

This is also why I don't bother reading EGS threads.

I can understand how it feels to be attacked. It's a problem the Internet has but this forum can do better. We are small enough to say no to such toxic displays.

It was like how Assassin's Creed Odessey threads always devolving into people calling people who played the game shrills when players told those who have not played the game that it didn't really feel like a grind and haven't felt any urge to buy microtransations.