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Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
I probably have thousands of hours between the past dozen or so FIFA games on a myriad of platforms: PC, Xbox 360, Xbox One, PlayStation 3, PlayStation 4, Nintendo DS, Nintendo Switch... what can I say? Its gameplay is very polished and it feels great, even when I'm just dominating the AI on the billionth season of a career mode in which I already bought all the best players in the world, the feeling of rolling the ball, having your players do the choreography you invented for them perfectly and deliver brilliant one-touch passes towards spectacular goals... it just never fails being fun to me, and I find myself going back to it year after year. There's been seasons I spent hundreds of hours on one career mode alone, others in which I played 500+ online matches, and so on. For some of its shortcomings (like the predatory Ultimate Team mode), it remains one of the most mechanically satisfying games ever made to me, year after year, up there with the "classics" like Call Of Duty, Tetris or Mario Kart in terms of pure gameplay feeling.

Having said that, there's something that keeps coming up within the community, something very hard to ultimately prove without being able to read into the game's code, but that just about anybody with thousands of hours in the games can at the very least suspect of happening. Some people call it "momentum", others call it "scripting", some simply blame a faulty AI, but there seems to be mechanisms in place inside of the way the FIFA games handle AI and statistics that favour hard-fought, exciting, unpredictable matches, where the stronger player is less likely to dominate the opponent, and the weaker one has a chance to put up a reasonable fight. One could argue this makes the game better: a total newcomer is hardly ever gonna beat a pro FIFA player, but if the skill levels of the players aren't that far apart, it makes for exciting matches where, like in real football(/soccer), the weaker team can occasionally take a shocking win. It's something that is far less likely to happen in a Formula 1 game, a fighter, a competitive twitch-based shooter: unless your opponent plays a lot worse than usual and/or makes some grave mistakes, you don't really have a chance against a significantly better player.

What does happen in FIFA games then? For those not in the know, in a typical match against another human player or AI, you are not really coordinating 11 players at the same time, but you only take control of one at a time, while you also act as a coach, giving generic orders to the others: attack and defense formations, specific tactics, decide who comes in from the bench, decide whether you concentrate more on defense than on offense, and so on. This means that at any given time, you're only controlling one player on the pitch, with the other 10 on your team who are pulled on a virtual string by the AI, trying to adapt to your coach-like orders. Even if you're a very good player with lightning quick strategy changes on the spot that give little room for interpretation to the AI, you are always trusting the game to handle your orders, while you do your best to control the selected player in the best possible way. Since the selected player is almost at all times the ball carrier, you are obviously hoping the game moves your other players ideally to create ideal pass opportunities, or them keeping the opposing defenders busy enough for you to find a way into goal. How you do that? By "injecting" strategy inputs that push the AI towards what you want them to do.

A fair question pops to mind: how does the game know your skill level beforehand? Let's say I am on a buddy's console with a guest account, but I'm actually a pro FIFA player with thousands of hours of gameplay. How does the game know whether I should get "smart" AI teammates or dumb ones? Because when playing against an AI, you can see it very clearly that the lowest difficulty and the highest one has the non-controlled players act in a completely different manner, running at different speeds, thinking at far different passing options, and so on. You can give real time tactical inputs to your players, but you have no control over a non-controlled player's effectiveness over jumping a defender, your goalkeeper's reactivity and so on. And while every player has statistics that determine how precise, powerful, etc. their touches are, how good their positioning is on a general basis and so on, the AI level is a deciding factor, and in fact you will never see the lowest difficulty AI dribble half the team like Maradona and score from 40 meters, even if the player controlled is someone like Messi or Ronaldo with crazy high statistics. This AI level has nothing to do with the team's or the players' stats: Real Madrid with its 5 stars can suddenly have a stupid AI, while Accrington with its half star or so can suddenly have 400 IQ players.

So there lies one of the issues: the game inevitably decides how good your teammates are, and the difference can be staggering. You can do two conseutive matches against the same opponent, using the same teams, the same pitch, the same weather, the same physical shape of players (in career there's fatigue, injuries and such, but in solo matches everybody always starts with 100% fresh and sane players)... and the game can absolutely feel different, and by very much. In one, your teammates may be anticipating your every move, connecting every pass of yours ideally and jumping defenders left and right with no player input whatsoever - next time around, your defenders may be sitting still half the time, with your only option to move forward is to personally dribble the opponents. This inconsistency with AI levels in FIFA takes a lot of the fun away, because it's been noticeable for many games in the franchise now that regardless of how you play or who's your opponent, in some matches the AI works in your favour, in others it almost plays against you.

Earlier I mentioned player stats, which is a huge factor in FIFA. Unlike something like Rocket League, in which the only deciding factor in how the ball behaves is the exact impact you make with the ball (assuming there's no lag and such of course), in FIFA your input is used as a general guide of what's gonna happen, but it's not a law. Do the same shot from 30 meters towards the corner or the net with Messi and then try again with your goalkeeper: the latter obviously has far lower stats in attack, so even if your input is 100% identical, the result is that with Messi you may be hitting your target, say, 80 times out of 100, while with the goalkeeper it's gonna be like 5 out of 100. Makes sense, of course: if all players on the pitch had the exact same chances to do the same things, why bother with tactics and strategies? All your players are "little Pelés" on the field, allowing you to score screamers with any defender, or use your finest attackers as brilliant defenders. Clearly, such statistics have to exist, and if the game is fair in using them it does make the game more fun. And in theory, having a good player in a certain role gives you near perfect chances at certain things to work out ideally.

That, however, isn't always the case at all, because the game often decides the result of certain scenarios beforehand. Just yesterday, I had a penalty kick with Ronaldo: great stats, I try and do it safe by slightly nudging the stick to the left and doing a slow shot, so that the keeper which I predicted would dive would get an easy-peasy goal. Ronaldo shot the ball at high speed to the left, outside of the goal. It's not what I pressed at all. All the things that I mentioned above should make the games more exciting and unpredictable, but it's the contrary, as there also seem to be very visible and noticeable AI patterns that determine how each game goes. You can "beat the system", mind: seems obvious that if you prevent your opponent from ever attacking, you will not lose. Once you understand how the AI "fails", you can abuse it. But the issue is that the games seem to alter the dice rolls from time to time to create more exciting matches. One very noticeable example that seems to keep happening since around FIFA 13 are the last minute goals. There's nothing more exciting in football than some last second goal that changes what seemed like a given result, and EA Sports' games seem to push this narrative a bit too hard. Out of my last 10 matches or so in FIFA 19, 8 had these goals happen, either in my favour or against me, just as the extra time was kicking in. A coincidence, you may say, but the problem is how these goals actually happen: defenders who were very effective at blocking opponents only seconds earlier, are suddenly stopping in the middle of the opponent's attack, or missing very simple touches that give their adversary a chance to score. And more often than not, in the final minutes the keeper will fail to save even unimpressive shots towards the middle of the goal that even you or I would have saved most certainly in real life. I learned to recognize this: if the clock is at 91 minutes and your opponent's attacker is running with one of my AI defenders suddenly stopping due to no fault of mine, I can already know it will be a goal. And then it is, because your keeper also goes on vacation. And I couldn't really do anything about it, this happens even if I'm on full defense mode trying to save the win. Just the other day I had a match where at the end I was using full defense mode, and yet after an attack of mine literally none of my AI defenders were on my side of the field, so when the opponent took ball he literally had no defenders against him for the last 50% of the pitch.

On the contrary, I have my Xbox filled with clips from the various episodes of the game in which no matter what I do, the ball just will not enter the goal, probably to make the game closer instead of me demolishing the opponent. My input is the same as always, but for some reason the player sitting inches away from the net will just shoot it on the bar, or miss the ball altogether, or slightly touch another player and fumble on the ground instead of shooting. Not so coincidentally, this is often followed by the opponent scoring a very simple goal in which my defenders forget to follow the action. Artificial excitement. I can go back to clips from as early as FIFA 14 (up until 13 it was last-gen, and since I was playing on X360 which didn't have native DVR I did not record clips prior to that) and find the most ridiculous stuff. This has to be one of my "favourites":




In a match where I was playing better than my opponent, I was still trailing as most of my attacks ended up just short of goal, while my opponents' few attempts resulted in goals. In the first attack of the clip the following things happen: an opponent defender has a lightning quick reaction time to oppose my first shot, on the rebound I do a good header but the keeper intercepts, on the rebound towards an empty-ish net my player hits the post, on yet another attempt of mine a defender of mine controlled by the AI blocks me from shooting instead of getting out of the way, after which I get yet another good shot which results in yet another post hit, and then my neverending attack finishes on a questionable foul. Remember that statistics play a huge factor in your shots, so while I was always aiming at the goal, my players kept missing it from ridiculously low distances. And then what happens a couple minutes (real time) later? My keeper fails to grab a slow ball going in the middle from a huge distance, effectively allowing a goal in from out of nowhere. The goalie was one of the best ones in the game, and yet he almost got deactivated in a way that gifted my opponent an unlikely goal. And on the contrary, here's one situation from FIFA 15 in which the AI favoured me immensely:




The keeper throws a perfect ball to a player of mine at midfield. The opponent's defenders or midfielders are nowhere to be seen as I run on my own. One quick pass towards my attacker, and I'm already in the goal. Two technically superior defenders are on my player. One literally stops instead of following my player, the other also runs surprisingly slow despite having better speed stats, and gets jumped way too easily as my player scores with ease, delivering a lovely curved header that would have been impossible to save even if the opposing keeper didn't try and get to the ball before my shot. Pulling off such "stunts" feels satisfying, but looking back at the clips it's so damn obvious how divine my middle quality Udinese players were, and how supposedly good players on the opposing side suddenly forgot how to football. It's disappointing when you can't do much against a goal because the AI is failing you, but it's not very satisfying scoring due to obvious opponent AI fallacies either. It sucks so much of the accomplishment away.

If you're still reading after this incredible wall of text, you may obviously wonder: aren't these just coincidences? In thousands of hours of play, shenanigans like in the clips above are bound to happen. The problem is that they are ridiculously frequent, the clips on my profile are just a very small sample of these things happening on a regular basis, since at the very least FIFA 13. You can almost predict every attack's result once you play long enough as soon as you see certain hints. Defenders stopping for no reason in the extra time, none of your attackers supporting you by trying to push through defense but sticking to the midfield instead, a keeper with horrible stats suddenly doing 15 saves per match worthy of Buffon's most glorious moments. The game goes out of its way to guarantee unpredictable and exciting matches, to the detriment of skills. And there's a hint of psychology as well: lose 2-3 consecutive matches, and you are practically guaranteed to have one where suddenly your AI predicts your every move, the opponent's AI is made of butter, and you're scoring with about every attack. You're happy about your result and you play another match because you're on a roll (not unlike how Candy Crush just happens to give you a good series of drops for an easy win after a set of frustrating losses), but if you know the game well enough, you probably know the opponent couldn't do a whole lot when every bad shot of yours somehow ended up in the net anyway and his defenders were unresponsive. I can't even count the amount of matches I have 30 shots while my opponent has like 3, and then it ends on a 2-2 or worse. And after a couple matches like that, suddenly I start scoring on every attack and bam, on the "easy mode" match I somehow score on every attack.

How do you prove such a thing without looking into the game code? You don't. You can't. Until then, this is a conspiracy theory of sorts, and I gladly listen to anybody who thinks I'm just bad at the game and making up excuses (while the clips I posted are old, I'm nowhere near an MLG FIFA player, though I can definitely say I'm well above average looking at my stats). What we know is that EA did indeed patent a tech that allows them to tinker with matchmaking and difficulty on the fly, to make for better player engagement and boost microtransaction sales. There is currently no definitve proof this is in FIFA, but it's an interesting fact. Confirmation bias sure is a thing, but I don't see these patterns in any other game (not these, anyway), even ones involving chance (be that in the weapons' bloom, the attack numbers in an RPG, etc.). By FIFA19, it honestly feels worse than ever: as said, there's been a last-minute ridiculous goal in most of my matches of late, along with the fact the vast majority of goals were followed by a superquick comeback, similarly with defenders sleeping most of the times. And lo and behold, after a couple bad matches in which I played horribly and would be ready to stop playing for the night, I would always play against a seemingly good opponent whose AI was very clearly handicapped, allowing me to make fun of their entire defense and score 3 goals in the first 3rd of the match with no sweat at all. Again, this isn't at all the experience in most online games, albeit some do, in fact, use tricks of their own: on top of my head, I can think of Gears Of War where a dev admitted that a player on the first game has a hidden health boost, or how Call Of Duty games also favour newcomers or comebackers in the first match.

And no, this isn't just online, either. In career mode, you better unlock the "restart match" function quick, because it can be an infuriating experience. Play multiple matches in a row against the strongest teams in the world and it can be a cakewalk - you just do your usual strats and style, and you have your usual myriad of scoring opportunities. Then suddenly, despite using the same players, the same tactics that you dominated Barcelona with, you're stuck against an Empoli, without being able to connect two passes, as the opposing defense manages to predict your every move with superhuman senses, blocking all your plays and finding a goal on their first attempt, which probably happens in the final minutes. But fret not: you can see how the game will be in the first minutes already, because you can see it right away that your "personal AI" is trash. So just restart the match and voilà: Empoli is back to being Empoli, and suddenly you're going through their defenses again like through butter. It may not be on the first attempt of a rematch, but maybe on the 2nd or 3rd, but surely enough you'll get there. The game, probably to create excitement and unpredictability, assigns a skill level of sorts that you need to beat. Roll the dice enough times and you're bound to find the easiest ones and the hardest ones alike, which decides between an ugly 0-0 and a spectacular 7-0 in which your playstyle and strategy at no point changed, but in one you had 30 shots while in the other maybe 3.

This is one of the many reasons I don't bother with the Ultimate Team mode. If you're not aware, it's basically FIFA + collectible card games: unlock players by purchasing cards (either by grinding or with real money), use further cards or money to give them long contracts and to improve their stats, then play against other teams' decks in a regular match of FIFA. But whereas in solo matches you just lose 10-20 minutes of your time with a loss, here you are possibly wasting your money on getting results that, based on how the game's AI acts, may be cakewalks or impossible tasks, and there is only so much you can do about it. I don't see the point in investing further money into matches like these, where skills only go so far. I'm perfectly fine playing my dozens, hundreds, possibly thousands of matches per game on the career mode against the AIs and in the online Seasons mode. At least the losses there are far easier to get over with.

------------

So, this is just my personal experience. What's yours? Do you feel that the game's AI is cheating towards creating more exciting matches? Is it maybe to try and motivate you by giving you easy wins among bad losses to keep you engaged and feel accomplishment? Am I just seeing things that aren't there? If you think these things happen but still play the game (like me), how do you counter it, what do you try to do in order to "beat the system"? For those that play other EA Sports games like Madden or NHL, does this happen there as well? There's been threads about "cheating AI" in the past (see the infamous input reading in Mortal Kombat or shooters where the enemies know your location at all times, regardless of whether they have any info on it), but thousands of hours of FIFA later I figured I'd share my thoughts on FIFA's peculiar case.
 

AlanOC91

Owner of YGOPRODeck.com
Verified
Nov 5, 2017
960
I used to be pretty addicted to Fifa back around 13/14 but it really really wears you down after a while.

You could play the best match ever against an opponent who clears seems much worse than you and you can still lose thanks to silly things like 3 injury time goals. It doesn't make it fun in the long run.

And don't get me started on Inform/Rare players. They are EXTREMELY expensive and yet most of the time a players with common gold teams perform much better (literally perform better, not a skill thing). You can have a Rare player with 85 pace be beat by a common player with 80 pace most of the time. It just makes you sit back and say "what is even the point of these stats on the cards?".

I've honestly quit Fifa for the last two years and I really haven't missed it much.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,454
Good thread.

Firstly Fifa as a game has been heading in a mess for years. We know momentum is in the game but you dare mention that word in the EA forums and the thread will be locked. It's there to help new players so they win a game and most likely decide to buy UT points.

The games competitive mode is a mess. It's just pay to win. Imagine COD where you spend thousands to buy the best guns. Fifa isn't competitive until every player has the same tools to work with. You can't call yourself a competitive game when people spent thousands on a team vs someone who spent hundreds.

Frostbite engine is to blame also. The animations at times are all over the place and we saw with Mass Effect Andromeda now the animations were just bad, I think fifa have a problem with it. They should use unreal engine, but I doubt they'd do that.

The gameplay in the last three or four years has been awful. The developers don't know what they want. They include useless features like timed finishing and moving the goalkeepers. They patch games and revert back to where the game plays like the previous games. They just have no vision on what type of football game they want. Either do a proper beta or stop releasing it every year.

Everything also has to be competitive and try hard. There's no real chillmode in UT without singles games. Put some tournaments or put coop in the game.

Lack of other modes. Give us a 5vs5 fifa street mode. So me and my four other buddies can take on 5 other people. Improve pro clubs that's been the same for a decade. That could have been big if EA actually put some effort into it. But they ignored it.

Im not a career mode player. But that's also been ignored for a long time.

The games just all round mess. Peaked with Fifa 12, but since then slowly gone downhill.
 

Deleted member 38573

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Jan 17, 2018
3,902
Good post, good read.

I regularly lurk the FIFA subreddit and have been playing at least on a weekend league gold 1 level for a couple years now, so this is really nothing new to me.

Kick off boosts have at least been a thing since FIFA 17, they patch it once the community wises up to it but don't worry, it will be present come the next iteration!

Once you're at an gold 1/Elite tier you kinda expect every match to be decided by momentum + whoever can consistently put themselves into positions to abuse AI failures.

Oh and Frostbite.... Don't let me get started on that.
 

Porky

Circumventing ban with an alt account
Banned
Mar 16, 2019
422
If you haven't already, OP. Watch this video:



This sort of thing has been going on for years in all sorts of games. Usually it's for the better, FIFA just does a really bad job of hiding it which ruins the illusion.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
21,467
Good post, good read.

I regularly lurk the FIFA subreddit and have been playing at least on a weekend league gold 1 level for a couple years now, so this is really nothing new to me. Kick off boosts have at least been a thing since FIFA 17, they patch it once the community wises up to it but don't worry, it will be present come the next iteration!

Once you're at an gold 1/Elite tier you kinda expect every match to be decided by momentum + whoever can consistently put themselves into positions to abuse AI failures.

Yeah, this is something I forgot to mention in my already lengthy post: in Season/Division modes, rushing from 10 to 5 takes almost no effort: if you're better, you're better, you can easily lead by 4 or 5 goals after the first half. Then in the final divisions, this momentum or whatever you want to call it kicks in far more than ever. Suddenly, even matches you are dominating hard will be decided by one goal or two at best, even if you shoot 30 times you'll never get more than 3 goals out of them, and so on. High level play is ridiculous, it's like the mere fact of being in those divisions means bullshit is about to happen, regardless of your opponent.
 

Acorn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,972
Scotland
I really got sick of this online, I used to play nearly every day now I've not bought the games in a few years.
 

Detail

Member
Dec 30, 2018
2,946
You don't need to look at the code or be a conspiracy theorist to know this game is scripted, there is a wealth of videos on YouTube showing the ball hitting an invisible wall on the line to stop it going in the net, players literally jumping out the way of balls so they can go in the net, balls going through arms and legs so it can go in the net, keepers making ghost saves where the ball is nowhere near their hand to prevent the ball going in the net.

Fifa is a poorly made game built to fake the emotion of real football and sucker people in like a gambling machine.

Pro Evo has scripting as well but at least there is some semblance of a football game there, truth be told though both are pretty damn bad.

Here is a perfect example of scripting, it's all the proof you will ever need.




I mean just go through that guys videos, it's 100% apparent that scripting exists.

It's the same with Madden, check out RyanMoody on YouTube, showing players literally contorting their arms and breaking them in order to get touchdowns.

EA doesn't care about their sports games, they are garbage, people need to stop giving them money and they will actually make an effort for once rather than just raking in that ultimate team money.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
21,467
I really got sick of this online, I used to play nearly every day now I've not bought the games in a few years.

I still get all the games "free" through EA Access every year, and when there's a buddy of mine bugging me to buy the latest one to play with him I often cave in - indeed I've been playing 19 for some months now because of that, otherwise I'd just play 18 every now and then. I used to be addicted hard, but by FIFA 19 this seems incredibly dominant in how online matches go. It was bad in FIFA 13, but it's insane how much worse it got.
 

Acorn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,972
Scotland
I still get all the games "free" through EA Access every year, and when there's a buddy of mine bugging me to buy the latest one to play with him I often cave in - indeed I've been playing 19 for some months now because of that, otherwise I'd just play 18 every now and then. I used to be addicted hard, but by FIFA 19 this seems incredibly dominant in how online matches go. It was bad in FIFA 13, but it's insane how much worse it got.
Yup and every year it seems like career gets worse somehow too.
 

Tarantism

Member
Nov 8, 2017
361
What particularly irks me is that EA categorically deny this is happening. But it so fucking obviously is.
I remember reading an interview on Eurogamer where he flat out asked them if it was a thing and they said it absolutely wasn't. Really feels like gaslighting.

The playerbase is so large for these games that they should be able to solve the problem of losing too many games through matchmaking alone.

Edit: Should note that when I play split screen against my friends we often notice that lower rated teams players are stronger, faster and more accurate than the supposed favourites. Even if we play 1 star teams against 5 star teams it ends up being a close run thing, which is nonsense.
 

Observable

Member
Oct 27, 2017
946
As someone who has won division 1 repeatedly from Fifa 11 (I think, may be 12 or 13) to 17, I just became tired of the nonsense and stopped playing them. My friend and I still bought Fifa 18 and 19, but playtime went down to less then 10% of what we used to play and for this years Fifa we've only played about 20 games total before we stopped. Next year's we'll not even buy it anymore. For me the last Fifa where I could 100% out smart the opponents each time and deal with the random bullshit was Fifa 14, after that the scale just tipped over.

It is really a shame as I used to love these games, but those clips you show I literally have 100's that are similar or worse. I've had players trip while walking towards an empty goal or somehow hit the post from 1 meter distance, while at the same time there are shots from almost midfield that went in from opponents when they're 2 goals down. We just decided it isn't worth our time and money anymore.
 

LuisGarcia

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
3,478
Yeah it's annoying. I call it momentum as it seems to be just that.

In the same game I can go from putting together amazing moves and playing well to not being able to make a ten yard pass.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 2254

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Oct 25, 2017
21,467
Here is a perfect example of scripting, it's all the proof you will ever need.


The first replay of that second video - ugh, how many fucking times that happened to me. I want a player to run towards the ball... and then this player runs in the exacy opposite direction. Insane. In the heat of the action you don't always realize, you think maybe you pressed the wrong button or something, then you look at what the AI does and just can't believe it.
 

SMD

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,341
Honestly this has always been FIFA, back in the 90s the exact same complaints were made. The reason Pro Evo was so popular was because the physics made sense and you felt like it was as natural as it was going to get.
I remember being amazed at seeing ISS Pro on the PS1 in motion for the first time after spending years with FIFA on PC.

People keep buying FIFA cos of the licenses and sodding FUT so there's no reason to do anything EXCEPT manipulate the mechanics to ultimately try and get players to spend more time playing and hopefully buying more packs.

Just stop buying it, it's beyond saving at this point.
 
Oct 30, 2017
8,967
This is why I stopped playing them years ago.

To this day I have not come across a more frustrating feeling in gaming than being one win away from division 1 and getting completely sandbagged by the scripting in that deciding game. It's so fucking obvious.
 

ItsBobbyDarin

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,905
Egyptian residing in Denmark
YES ! I and my friends are playing FIFA a lot these days over Xbox live. We have talked so many times how ridiculous the AI is at certain points, and why some of them stop chasing a player, or the defense opens up for whatever reason. We knew something was going on!
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
21,467
As someone who has won division 1 repeatedly from Fifa 11 (I think, may be 12 or 13) to 17, I just became tired of the nonsense and stopped playing them. My friend and I still bought Fifa 18 and 19, but playtime went down to less then 10% of what we used to play and for this years Fifa we've only played about 20 games total before we stopped. Next year's we'll not even buy it anymore. For me the last Fifa where I could 100% out smart the opponents each time and deal with the random bullshit was Fifa 14, after that the scale just tipped over.

It is really a shame as I used to love these games, but those clips you show I literally have 100's that are similar or worse. I've had players trip while walking towards an empty goal or somehow hit the post from 1 meter distance, while at the same time there are shots from almost midfield that went in from opponents when they're 2 goals down. We just decided it isn't worth our time and money anymore.

Yeah, this is exactly my situation. I used to play FIFA religiously from 09 to 14 especially. In 13 I had hundreds of online matches, I won division 1 many times over, but it's around those days this became noticeable. Between FIFA 14 and 16 I used to play for hours on end with my cousin, and it was so damn easy to see how certain scenarios kept repeating. In FIFA 10 or so I could easily win some matched 9-0, suddenly in the new ones even the dominated matches became crazy hard-fought, with empty net goals somehow constantly missed to keep you on the edge of the seat. I could pick up Accrington and him Arsenal and I'd still dominate if the game went a certain way, or barely even see the ball picking Juventus when it went another way. Neither of us were pros, we pretty much play in the same way, always. And yet, the results would vary so much. It became more and more annoying and through FIFA 17 to 19 I became a bit of an occasional player. I may get addicted for a couple days (like now), and then not touch it for 6 months. A far cry from the FIFA 09-13 days in which I easily averaged like 200-300 hours on each game.
 

Mass_Pincup

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,126
It happens so often it's getting tiring. The amount of time my opponent made a through ball and my defender (who was on track to catch the ball) just stopped, allowing a clear cut chance might be in the thousands.

There's also your AI controlled teammates not making any run which reduce your chances to move forward coupled with the opposition making perfect tackles and interceptions which is an extremely common phenomenon.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 2254

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Bonus clip, again from FIFA15 as I record far less from later games (I also don't play as much as I did back then). I have a penalty kick against an opponent. I decide to shoot the ball straight on. The opponent bets on me doing that, so he stays in the middle. Then this happens:



The ball is going towards his face at a fairly slow speed, but he doesn't stretch his arms to stop it or anything, he lets the ball hit his face, but not before doing a bonkers last moment dive which makes sure his face pushes the ball in the net instead of straigh on had he stayed motionless. I shot the ball badly. The opposing keeper was in the right place to save it easily. He didn't. The game figured I had to score, so I did.
 

Observable

Member
Oct 27, 2017
946
I do wonder though how much of this is due to optimizing the game for the limited CPU power available. I've always wondered at how much they'd have to script due to having 22 individuals on the field of which only 2 are controlled by the players. There's so much to take into account at all times that it can't be easy to keep up with these CPU's. Even on PC's this means that the game is designed with the console CPU's in mind.

My hope is that next gen with the stronger CPU's they'll be able to make the gameplay more open again. Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but I know I won''t buy a Fifa game until that happens.
 

Detail

Member
Dec 30, 2018
2,946
The first replay of that second video - ugh, how many fucking times that happened to me. I want a player to run towards the ball... and then this player runs in the exacy opposite direction. Insane. In the heat of the action you don't always realize, you think maybe you pressed the wrong button or something, then you look at what the AI does and just can't believe it.

The rest of his videos are even more damning tbh, I just picked those two at random.

Look at what happens in Madden as well, it's the same thing.

 
OP
OP

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Oh, I'm finding such gems in my videos. This was also brilliant: the ball is next to the line, practically motionless, the keeper can easily grab it. Instead, he decides to dive towards it with his arms in a different direction, hitting it with his stomach which makes the ball roll into the net. A reminder that this is done by the AI, not by a human player, so there is nothing you can do about it.



EDIT: Wrong video at first, corrected it immediately.
 

.git

Member
Dec 4, 2018
336
United Kingdom
I used to be so addicted to FIFA a few years back but now, I can only play a few games before getting frustrated to how scripted the game is. Didn't EA come out and say there is scripting?
 
OP
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The rest of his videos are even more damning tbh, I just picked those two at random.

Look at what happens in Madden as well, it's the same thing.



I mean, it's really down to two options: they either have a horrible AI in place despite decades of iterative games, or the game intentionally has some players actively run away from the action to allow the opponent to score. It happens way too many times and neither option is flattering.
 

Tickling

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
961
Master League pes job done. Moved back over last year to it and haven't looked back. So much more enjoyable
 

Detail

Member
Dec 30, 2018
2,946
I do wonder though how much of this is due to optimizing the game for the limited CPU power available. I've always wondered at how much they'd have to script due to having 22 individuals on the field of which only 2 are controlled by the players. There's so much to take into account at all times that it can't be easy to keep up with these CPU's. Even on PC's this means that the game is designed with the console CPU's in mind.

My hope is that next gen with the stronger CPU's they'll be able to make the gameplay more open again. Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but I know I won''t buy a Fifa game until that happens.

That argument would hold weight if previous generation games with weaker hardware did this but they didn't, this is a blatant attempt by EA to script the game and works the odds for and against, it's an addictive formula, just like gambling.

They know that if you were constantly winning because you were too good it would never keep most people hooked, it gets boring, that's why the battle royale genre is so popular, the wins feel really good because you never know when they will come.

Therefore, EA manipulate the games by forcing players to make mistakes, allowing shots that would normally be blocked to go through legs and body parts etc and when you finally do win you think "Damn, here we go, I am playing good today, about to go on a winning streak"

You know who else says that? People addicted to gambling, trust me, I speak from past experience here and these games tick all the boxes for that strategy.

It's a clever strategy by EA but make no mistake, they know what they are doing, the game is built around ultimate team, making people spend money for better players because they think it increases their odds of winning.
 

Hyun Sai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,562
Wow... I don't play football games, but those videos are mindblowing. It's basically a gigantic scam at this point.
 

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,757
I unfortunately don't have a clip but one of the worst examples of FIFA scripting bullshit I've ever seen happened to me a few weeks back.

I was playing a local match against a mate of mine. I don't remember the teams but it was part of a champions league style tournament so they would have been some of the best in Europe. I was winning 3-2 because of a few bullshit goals on my behalf. His keeper made some ridiculously dumb plays so out of frustration my mate subbed his 85+ rated keeper for a 16 year old, ~50 rated left back.

In the dying moments of the game be gets free kick on the half way line. He decides to use his terrible keeper and go for a shot on goal. Surprisingly it's on target, however, it's very slow and is heading directly towards my keeper. Who promptly let's the ball in because he went for a header instead of trying to catch the ball.

My mate won on penalties
 

Bazry

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,536
I have no interest in Fifa at all but I watch a lot of Castro because I find him entertaining to watch in general. From just watching him you know the game in all areas in scripted/rigged, from the AI in matches to the FUT packs he spends thousands on each week.
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,508
I used to be pretty involved with the FIFA community and was part of their earliest GameChanger programme. I was never persuaded that FIFA was 'scripted' (one of the many, many terms the community has used to describe this issue). Personally I believe that FIFA is a (mathematically) chaotic simulation where a great proportion of the simulation isn't controlled by the user directly or indirectly. It's human instinct to see God in the machine, and in this case people tend to feel like they're being cheated when things go badly for them, while rarely seeing how lucky they're being when things go well.

Personally I think a lot of it comes down to your team's AI. If your tactical setup is a bad match for your opponent's, you feel like you're playing an uphill battle all game, and what's more, I'm pretty sure the game does silently change certain aspects of mentality depending on scoreline and match time, in a way which seems logical but can often mean the flow of the game shifts even if neither player changes the way they are playing. I could go on forever, but it boils down to a simple thing:

- There is no actual evidence for scripting
- FIFA is undeniably chaotic
- FIFA is undeniably random
- You control a fraction of the match
- Humans are extremely biased

I don't think that EA are intentionally manipulating results. There might be an advantage to doing that if no-one could tell, but given that so many people do think the game is scripted it only ends up turning their fans off.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,581
It definitely is but has only started happening over the last few games, I have noticed the change, especially online, it's nowhere near as bad as Fifa but it definitely exists.

Konami Pes team not having a clue about how to scam people just take inspiration from the biggest scam of all, FUT.

Hence, Myclub, that lately is becoming more and more pay to win and ridden with script. Problem is script is also visible in offline modes. Pes is losing its identity trying to reach the Fifa audience and that's sad.

- There is no actual evidence for scripting

Except there is:

few years ago in game code it was found a clear indication that the game manipulates and favorites teams that are at disadvantage to have this fake feeling of exciting matches.

Also, there are so many videos showing the ball hitting the post three-four times in a row after a shot in just few seconds, ball dancing on the goal line like there was some sort of magic block that doesn't allow you to score.

Tell me how is this possible in a football game with the frequency it happens in Fifa

 
Last edited:

Elephant

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,786
Nottingham, UK
I've always compared it to when racing games have a catch-up mode to make races seem more competitive, instead of it being about how skilled you are at the game. Maybe a Mario Kart, giving the people at the back a Bullet Bill or a Blue Shell. It becomes more about playing against the code rather than other people.

Surely you get competitive matches with effective matchmaking, instead of changing things in-game that the player has no control over. I'm not accusing them of fixing results, but SOMETHING affects the way your players respond, whether its messing up the simplest of passes or something else.

I've had every single FIFA since FIFA International on the MegaDrive. In December my friend bought me FIFA 19 for my birthday, mainly because he wanted someone to play Pro Clubs with, I had a few games on Ultimate Team, messed around with him in Pro Clubs, and haven't turned it back on since because of this. Let me play against someone better than me, let them give me an absolute battering, I'd much prefer it to the bullshit we have now.
 
OP
OP

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Oct 25, 2017
21,467
I unfortunately don't have a clip but one of the worst examples of FIFA scripting bullshit I've ever seen happened to me a few weeks back.

I was playing a local match against a mate of mine. I don't remember the teams but it was part of a champions league style tournament so they would have been some of the best in Europe. I was winning 3-2 because of a few bullshit goals on my behalf. His keeper made some ridiculously dumb plays so out of frustration my mate subbed his 85+ rated keeper for a 16 year old, ~50 rated left back.

In the dying moments of the game be gets free kick on the half way line. He decides to use his terrible keeper and go for a shot on goal. Surprisingly it's on target, however, it's very slow and is heading directly towards my keeper. Who promptly let's the ball in because he went for a header instead of trying to catch the ball.

My mate won on penalties

I usually use Juventus, and they have incredible free kickers like Ronaldo, Dybala and Pjanic. I basically have like 2 kicks I normally try. They either go there with almost centimeter precision or like 50 meters away, with no inbetween. It's crazy: you either score or very close to it, or the game just sends the ball to the skies.
 

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,757
I used to be pretty involved with the FIFA community and was part of their earliest GameChanger programme. I was never persuaded that FIFA was 'scripted' (one of the many, many terms the community has used to describe this issue). Personally I believe that FIFA is a (mathematically) chaotic simulation where a great proportion of the simulation isn't controlled by the user directly or indirectly. It's human instinct to see God in the machine, and in this case people tend to feel like they're being cheated when things go badly for them, while rarely seeing how lucky they're being when things go well.

Personally I think a lot of it comes down to your team's AI. If your tactical setup is a bad match for your opponent's, you feel like you're playing an uphill battle all game, and what's more, I'm pretty sure the game does silently change certain aspects of mentality depending on scoreline and match time, in a way which seems logical but can often mean the flow of the game shifts even if neither player changes the way they are playing. I could go on forever, but it boils down to a simple thing:

- There is no actual evidence for scripting
- FIFA is undeniably chaotic
- FIFA is undeniably random
- You control a fraction of the match
- Humans are extremely biased

I don't think that EA are intentionally manipulating results. There might be an advantage to doing that if no-one could tell, but given that so many people do think the game is scripted it only ends up turning their fans off.
If it isn't scripted then the next logical conclusion is that the game is just badly made.

There are so many examples of players falling over themselves, making completely idiotic decisions, running in the wrong direction, having the ball phase through feet, defenders actively dodging the ball etc.
 
OP
OP

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user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
I used to be pretty involved with the FIFA community and was part of their earliest GameChanger programme. I was never persuaded that FIFA was 'scripted' (one of the many, many terms the community has used to describe this issue). Personally I believe that FIFA is a (mathematically) chaotic simulation where a great proportion of the simulation isn't controlled by the user directly or indirectly. It's human instinct to see God in the machine, and in this case people tend to feel like they're being cheated when things go badly for them, while rarely seeing how lucky they're being when things go well.

Personally I think a lot of it comes down to your team's AI. If your tactical setup is a bad match for your opponent's, you feel like you're playing an uphill battle all game, and what's more, I'm pretty sure the game does silently change certain aspects of mentality depending on scoreline and match time, in a way which seems logical but can often mean the flow of the game shifts even if neither player changes the way they are playing. I could go on forever, but it boils down to a simple thing:

- There is no actual evidence for scripting
- FIFA is undeniably chaotic
- FIFA is undeniably random
- You control a fraction of the match
- Humans are extremely biased

I don't think that EA are intentionally manipulating results. There might be an advantage to doing that if no-one could tell, but given that so many people do think the game is scripted it only ends up turning their fans off.

I can appreciate this point of view. It's probably human nature to expect conspiracies and I have no proof of what happens, but some patterns are so damn noticeable I can not look away from them, confirming almost certainly how the attack will go based on what the AI is doing. It's either a scheme for excitement and engagement, or their AI is a chaotic unpredictable mess that alternates between Guardiola's Barcelona and a shit-tier Serie C team.
 

Zem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,969
United Kingdom
I love how EA denies this is a thing when you can call out the "momentum" kicking in before it even does because it's so predictable. The kick off boost is insane as well. The game is shit.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,013
UK
Really well written OP and it's why I dropped FIFA after FIFA 11

The game feels fun to play but it's just not fair, to the point of where it's actually a bad video game

If you only play a few matches round a friends it's fun, but ultimately the game cheats and manipulates things, and achieving a win state (scoring goals) is entirely up to the whim of the game

You can shoot from good positions all you like, but the game decides when you score and when you don't

The game will even decide if you're allowed to get into shooting positions

Trash series
 

Aldi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,634
United Kingdom
I think FIFA 17 was my last FIFA. I will admit to spending around £100 on ultimate team . I justified it by getting the game for free as it was an unwanted gift a friend gave me.

Losing games when you had 70% of the possession and 10x as many shots on target to far lesser teams were not uncommon. Anyone that has played the game a while will understand that ultimate team is a waste of time as stats such as 99 shooting mean for nothing if the game is against you.

I vowed never to touch another FIFA game again. I won't even download them for free on EA access, the game is scripted.
 

Kaguya

Member
Jun 19, 2018
6,404
If you haven't already, OP. Watch this video:



This sort of thing has been going on for years in all sorts of games. Usually it's for the better, FIFA just does a really bad job of hiding it which ruins the illusion.

It's never for the better in competitive games, even in single player games it's mostly hated or viewed as an annoyance, only getting a pass when it's completely unnoticeable, in which case you can't really judge how good/bad it preformed!
 

Cronus

Member
Oct 31, 2017
520
I've only read 1/3 so far, and will read the rest later, but you're spot on.

I was a FIFA fanatic for years - in fact, one of the best in Norway, but now I rarely play it. And the reason for that is the blatant scripting.

It's just staggering how obvious it is at times, and I can't believe EA are still able to do it year after year. I get why they do it. They want casuals and kids to keep playing the game and use real money on Ultimate Team. If bad players were to lose most games to better players, they'd probably play less or stop playing the game altogether. So I get why, but I don't think it's right at all.

What's the point of a sports game if it's not a level playing field? I could score two quick goals against a bad player, and then suddenly my players run as if they're running in mud and I hit the post with every shot. Where's the fun in that?

It's not a level playing field anymore. Yet, people still play it, even though it's so obvious. I remember when EA locked all the forum threads and posts that raised the issue as well. It's obvious that they don't want people to talk about it. It's clearly there, and it sucks. Sucked all the fun out of games for me.
 

Ringten

Member
Nov 15, 2017
6,194
The one game that should be a GAAS model lol.

People quite literally buy the same game every year.

My friends love the game, but i just get annoyed at how bullshit the game can be.
 

alexiswrite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,418
I used to be pretty involved with the FIFA community and was part of their earliest GameChanger programme. I was never persuaded that FIFA was 'scripted' (one of the many, many terms the community has used to describe this issue). Personally I believe that FIFA is a (mathematically) chaotic simulation where a great proportion of the simulation isn't controlled by the user directly or indirectly. It's human instinct to see God in the machine, and in this case people tend to feel like they're being cheated when things go badly for them, while rarely seeing how lucky they're being when things go well.

Personally I think a lot of it comes down to your team's AI. If your tactical setup is a bad match for your opponent's, you feel like you're playing an uphill battle all game, and what's more, I'm pretty sure the game does silently change certain aspects of mentality depending on scoreline and match time, in a way which seems logical but can often mean the flow of the game shifts even if neither player changes the way they are playing. I could go on forever, but it boils down to a simple thing:

- There is no actual evidence for scripting
- FIFA is undeniably chaotic
- FIFA is undeniably random
- You control a fraction of the match
- Humans are extremely biased

I don't think that EA are intentionally manipulating results. There might be an advantage to doing that if no-one could tell, but given that so many people do think the game is scripted it only ends up turning their fans off.

I completely agree with all of this.

I think people should also recognise that they're playing a weird compression of a 90min game into 9-10 mins. Weird things are going to happen. Given that most people's examples of "scripting" is something weird happening in a match, it's really difficult for me to take it seriously when in real life we have weird as fuck shit happening in football all the fucking time.