We need to have a talk on how we treat sexual assault victims on this site

[TheHunter]

This post seems kind of true for what is happening in this thread and in this country.

The Biden and Kavanaugh situations seem similar. I don't think it's trolling.

Click to shrink...

They are not the same, and I'm getting real tired of people using victims stories as bludgeons for their dishonesty. Each story has different context, different situations and above all...different evidence. STOP COMPARING THE TWO.

It takes real sociopathy to use MeToo as a weapon to bully, debase and defame others. The whole point of MeToo was to listen to women when they told the stories(we listened to Reade) investigate their stories (that too happened) and when able hold those accountable (We currently cannot, as the standard for a he said/she said crime is hard to pass sadly, it's the nature of such crimes). You say you think there's enough there to convict/do something about Biden. I say that's not how this works, nor should it.

I gave an example in Poliera, and I'll use it here again.

"The lesson of MeToo was to believe when woman made accusations, not laugh them off. It was to investigate and corroborate stories and information. Finally, it was to hold those found guilty accountable. No one signed off on Spanish Inquisitions. Because what we have now is not enough clearly for the public at large. That is the unfortunate nature of such personal crimes. When it is one persons word against another you need as much evidence and corroboration as possible. ??? doesn't mean I don't believe her allegation. It means I don't have enough to take action.

For example, in a less serious crime let's say your son or daughter has a favorite toy. Let's say they come up to you and say another kid stole it. What do you do?

Me? I believe my child, but I'm not going to go over and punch the other kid in the face; nor am I going to angrily go over to his home and bust the door down demanding penance for their crime. I'm going to investigate, I'm going to figure out the whole story and if I can prove that kid did it well then sir we're going to have problems. If I can't prove it? If I never even see said toy with kid? What kind of asshole would I look like if I came storming into their home making demands and threatening them? Calling their child a thief and bastard? Instead I might have a polite conversation with their parents.

Now of course, stealing a toy and rape are not equivalent. I'm merely trying to point out why ??? doesn't mean I don't not believe Reade. It simply means I personally need more info to sign off on certain actions. I was already going to hold Biden accountable to not being so goddamn touchy, now no matter what happens further I will be watching on this front harsher.

This also ties back to Ford because I increasingly see people use it as an example of partisanship. We all demanded to hear her out first, investigate and corroborate. And once they did(and the GOP not only tried to not investigate but outright sabotage it) then we made demands. You are not seeing us tell Reade to go away(ignore very online twitter folks). We saw this allegation come out and said "lets wait and see" and we did.

Again, in a perfect world we wouldn't have this conversation. I don't like Biden. I don't like his touchy behavior or old style chauvinism or out of touch ways let alone his "come together politics". What I do recognize is we can't pull the trigger on this without the voters and public on board. They are clearly not on board(because there isn't enough). "

I understand the pain of victims, and I won't tell them what to do, think or feel. I will simply tell them the stakes, who we're up against and the fact that Biden can be held accountable. You do what you need to do; I will not sit here and watch people use MeToo as a political weapon. These women were victims, and each of their stories is their own; to use one womans accusations against another for any reason is shameful. And that includes comparing them as equal.

Shame on any of you using this as a weapon, both against greater movements and posters on this board.

Lost on all of us, is the fact that we take her story as 100% truth, she will never get justice now. We politicized it, we used it as a bludgeon to argue for Bernie as the nom and we used it as a cudgel to accuse the dems as not caring about victims.

Absolute shame.

 

[JABEE]

Of course it's understood why that particular clip was used. We just feel like Ortix's comments still pale in comparison. The latter has not, to the best of my knowledge, been accused of rape. It's not just the scale of it. A rapist lying to protect his political advancement is a fairly different situation, and we felt like the comparison minimized the incredible shamefulness of that.

Click to shrink...

So he had less to personally gain from using the shameful rhetoric therefore it's not as bad?

 

[Biggersmaller]

I believe Tara Reade. I think Joe Biden should immediately step down. But it will never happen and that's the tragedy. As a larger issue, there are always celebrities/politicians whose fans will never accept they're defending a predator and will always be there to do free PR to sway public opinion. People defended the living shit out of Michael Jackson entirely unchecked on this forum until Leaving Neverland. Sadly, there can't be a 6 hour documentary on every sex predator with a dense fanbase.

It's hard for a lot of people, but I also believe the accusers of Tupac Shakur, James Levine, Kobe Bryant, Charles Dutoit, Russell Simmons, Dustin Hoffman, etc etc

 

[Pekola]

So, here's the thing, and it's why the volunteer part is relevant... past attempts to engage on this and similar topics have *not* gone well. A number of staff members' contributions (including those who are themselves victims) have been received with extreme hostility and bullying. Some haven't been back on to help out since. So, as a team of volunteers, it's hard to get people willing to stick their oar in when they're terrified of the response.

Click to shrink...

1) Just to be clear, criticism of the moderation team or assumptions as to why moderation is doing X or Y isn't bullying. And anyone who understands power dynamics can attest to that. You can literally ban us.

So I'm assuming that's NOT what you're referring to. If someone made posts actually personally attacking you, you can literally ban them as well. Of course, that's hurtful, so it sucks. But you can actually do something about it.

2) There's no dedicated part of the board to discuss site issues. There's literally no way we can enact community accountability except in moments like these. And I get it's not comfortable being told "hey, this thing you're doing/not doing sucks!" but you cannot improve without incorporating different perspectives. IMO, you really need it.

3) Moderation is erratic, and this is even before the pandemic. And by that I mean, slow for some things, and for other things it's extremely fast.

I get that some things require additional discussion, but at this point moderation should have been trained on what to look for when the subject is as sensitive as sexual assault and harassment.

 

[JABEE]

They are not the same, and I'm getting real tired of people using victims stories as bludgeons for their dishonesty. Each story has different context, different situations and above all...different evidence. STOP COMPARING THE TWO.

It takes real sociopathy to use MeToo as a weapon to bully, debase and defame others. The whole point of MeToo was to listen to women when they told the stories(we listened to Reade) investigate their stories (that too happened) and when able hold those accountable (We currently cannot, as the standard for a he said/she said crime is hard to pass sadly, it's the nature of such crimes). You say you think there's enough there to convict/do something about Biden. I say that's not how this works, nor should it.

I gave an example in Poliera, and I'll use it here again.

"The lesson of MeToo was to believe when woman made accusations, not laugh them off. It was to investigate and corroborate stories and information. Finally, it was to hold those found guilty accountable. No one signed off on Spanish Inquisitions. Because what we have now is not enough clearly for the public at large. That is the unfortunate nature of such personal crimes. When it is one persons word against another you need as much evidence and corroboration as possible. ??? doesn't mean I don't believe her allegation. It means I don't have enough to take action.

For example, in a less serious crime let's say your son or daughter has a favorite toy. Let's say they come up to you and say another kid stole it. What do you do?

Me? I believe my child, but I'm not going to go over and punch the other kid in the face; nor am I going to angrily go over to his home and bust the door down demanding penance for their crime. I'm going to investigate, I'm going to figure out the whole story and if I can prove that kid did it well then sir we're going to have problems. If I can't prove it? If I never even see said toy with kid? What kind of asshole would I look like if I came storming into their home making demands and threatening them? Calling their child a thief and bastard? Instead I might have a polite conversation with their parents.

Now of course, stealing a toy and rape are not equivalent. I'm merely trying to point out why ??? doesn't mean I don't not believe Reade. It simply means I personally need more info to sign off on certain actions. I was already going to hold Biden accountable to not being so goddamn touchy, now no matter what happens further I will be watching on this front harsher.

This also ties back to Ford because I increasingly see people use it as an example of partisanship. We all demanded to hear her out first, investigate and corroborate. And once they did(and the GOP not only tried to not investigate but outright sabotage it) then we made demands. You are not seeing us tell Reade to go away(ignore very online twitter folks). We saw this allegation come out and said "lets wait and see" and we did.

Again, in a perfect world we wouldn't have this conversation. I don't like Biden. I don't like his touchy behavior or old style chauvinism or out of touch ways let alone his "come together politics". What I do recognize is we can't pull the trigger on this without the voters and public on board. They are clearly not on board(because there isn't enough). "

I understand the pain of victims, and I won't tell them what to do, think or feel. I will simply tell them the stakes, who we're up against and the fact that Biden can be held accountable. You do what you need to do; I will not sit here and watch people use MeToo as a political weapon. These women were victims, and each of their stories is their own; to use one womans accusations against another for any reason is shameful. And that includes comparing them as equal.

Shame on any of you using this as a weapon, both against greater movements and posters on this board.

Lost on all of us, is the fact that we take her story as 100% truth, she will never get justice now. We politicized it, we used it as a bludgeon to argue for Bernie as the nom and we used it as a cudgel to accuse the dems as not caring about victims.

Absolute shame.

Click to shrink...

I think there are plenty of people who didn't like Biden joining the team now that he is the nominee including Bernie. I think the Reade situation of Time's Up not taking her case shows how there are plenty of people ready to overlook horrible crimes to support the Democratic Party because they believe the ends justify the means.

I think people have a right to not vote for Biden because he sexually assaulted a woman in the 90s. And his victim shouldn't be attacked as a Russian agent or attacked as a political opportunist.

I am not sure what you are talking about sociopathy to my post.

 

[RedMercury]

I guess another thing is like, and I get things are crazy in the world right now, but going back to participation why is there only one mod in here fielding concerns from like 100 people? It's not going to work, people are just going to feel ignored, and it's not really fair to put that all on one person. Is it a time zone thing, or like people at work? I don't know but like, if threads like this are going to be open it's just a lot of users talking to each other basically but not really having much answered, one mod can't conceivably respond to everyone. It would be better if this was locked until enough people had free time to sit in here for a while. The way it's going, conversation is going to lose focus over time and start bringing in a multitude of other issues until what the main concern is becomes tertiary.

Edit: I want to make a note as well, because Shy is a good friend of mine and I know this is really eating him up, and it has to do with the conversation happening here: He would never, ever be insensitive or troll rape victims. They would be aghast if any survivor of rape or sexual assault saw that and thought that was what they were about. His intention was nothing more than pointing out what he saw as an inherent contradiction in a conversation with another poster.

 

[Valkrai]

Kavanaugh is a rapist, Biden is a rapist, Trump is a rapist as well. People on this board trying to shame sexual assault victims not wanting to vote for Biden and trying to discredit Reade is shameful. We need to be better to these victims and you wonder why people don't come out about these incidents?

And TheHunter that was the most longwinded nothing post I've seen from you, politicized? Its wanting action for people that've hurt and abused, its what MeToo was supposed to stand for.

 

[deepFlaw]

We felt that considering the linked footage is of a rapist lying his way to a supreme court seat, the comparison minimized the awfulness of what Kavanaugh did. Ortix's post was bannable. Kavanaugh's rant was on another level entirely.

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...but the comparison wasn't defending Kavanaugh? If you had said it was too much to pin on Ortix, I'd disagree with it being ban-worthy but at least see where you had the problem. But the point of the post was clearly that what Ortix was saying was bad, so I'm confused how that reason could possibly be why they were punished.

EDIT: Sorry, just saw the follow-up post but I'm still very confused by how they were somehow minimizing the awfulness of Kavanaugh in a way that is worth harshly punishing. Like if the point is there is (obviously) a difference between Ortix's words and what Kavanaugh did, it's very silly to specify that side of the comparison as the punishable one.

 

[stump sock]

I agree I think a moderation feedback thread would help a lot.

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would probably save them a lot of trouble too because they can just auto ban everyone who posts in it

 

[Poodlestrike]

So he had less to personally gain from using the shameful rhetoric therefore it's not as bad?

Click to shrink...

He also, again, didn't rape anybody, as far as I know. Two fairly different situations.

1) Just to be clear, criticism of the moderation team or assumptions as to why moderation is doing X or Y isn't bullying. And anyone who understands power dynamics can attest to that. You can literally ban us.

So I'm assuming that's NOT what you're referring to. If someone made posts actually personally attacking you, you can literally ban them as well. Of course, that's hurtful, so it sucks. But you can actually do something about it.

2) There's no dedicated part of the board to discuss site issues. There's literally no way we can enact community accountability except in moments like these. And I get it's not comfortable being told "hey, this thing you're doing/not doing sucks!" but you cannot improve without incorporating different perspectives. IMO, you really need it.

3) Moderation is erratic, and this is even before the pandemic. And by that I mean, slow for some things, and for other things it's extremely fast.

I get that some things require additional discussion, but at this point moderation should have been trained on what to look for when the subject is as sensitive as sexual assault and harassment.

Click to shrink...

Just as a personal matter, what you and RedMercury are suggesting about a forum issues discussion board sounds like it could be interesting... or insanely toxic. It'd have to be carefully done. I can talk to the rest of the team about it, but it's hard to shake the feeling sometimes that we'd have to spend an incredibly outsized amount of time and effort moderating it and it'd still be a toxic hellhole.

And you're right, I'm not referring to people taking issue with things we've done as bullying or hostility. I'm mostly referring to people twisting words to say that we're doing something we're not, or not doing something we are. Or tossing back a team members helping hand, or just telling us to go fuck ourselves, etc. etc. This is part of the fear with a forum discussion section/thread as well.

Moderation can always be better. It's gotten harder since the pandemic, though. I don't expect anybody to be fully ameliorated by that, mind. Just explaining the reality of it. Lotta days we only have 2-3 people on at a time, and if a report falls outside of their areas of expertise, well, stuff can sit. We try not to let it.

 

[Kayla]

They are not the same, and I'm getting real tired of people using victims stories as bludgeons for their dishonesty. Each story has different context, different situations and above all...different evidence. STOP COMPARING THE TWO.

It takes real sociopathy to use MeToo as a weapon to bully, debase and defame others. The whole point of MeToo was to listen to women when they told the stories(we listened to Reade) investigate their stories (that too happened) and when able hold those accountable (We currently cannot, as the standard for a he said/she said crime is hard to pass sadly, it's the nature of such crimes). You say you think there's enough there to convict/do something about Biden. I say that's not how this works, nor should it.

I gave an example in Poliera, and I'll use it here again.

"The lesson of MeToo was to believe when woman made accusations, not laugh them off. It was to investigate and corroborate stories and information. Finally, it was to hold those found guilty accountable. No one signed off on Spanish Inquisitions. Because what we have now is not enough clearly for the public at large. That is the unfortunate nature of such personal crimes. When it is one persons word against another you need as much evidence and corroboration as possible. ??? doesn't mean I don't believe her allegation. It means I don't have enough to take action.

For example, in a less serious crime let's say your son or daughter has a favorite toy. Let's say they come up to you and say another kid stole it. What do you do?

Me? I believe my child, but I'm not going to go over and punch the other kid in the face; nor am I going to angrily go over to his home and bust the door down demanding penance for their crime. I'm going to investigate, I'm going to figure out the whole story and if I can prove that kid did it well then sir we're going to have problems. If I can't prove it? If I never even see said toy with kid? What kind of asshole would I look like if I came storming into their home making demands and threatening them? Calling their child a thief and bastard? Instead I might have a polite conversation with their parents.

Now of course, stealing a toy and rape are not equivalent. I'm merely trying to point out why ??? doesn't mean I don't not believe Reade. It simply means I personally need more info to sign off on certain actions. I was already going to hold Biden accountable to not being so goddamn touchy, now no matter what happens further I will be watching on this front harsher.

This also ties back to Ford because I increasingly see people use it as an example of partisanship. We all demanded to hear her out first, investigate and corroborate. And once they did(and the GOP not only tried to not investigate but outright sabotage it) then we made demands. You are not seeing us tell Reade to go away(ignore very online twitter folks). We saw this allegation come out and said "lets wait and see" and we did.

Again, in a perfect world we wouldn't have this conversation. I don't like Biden. I don't like his touchy behavior or old style chauvinism or out of touch ways let alone his "come together politics". What I do recognize is we can't pull the trigger on this without the voters and public on board. They are clearly not on board(because there isn't enough). "

I understand the pain of victims, and I won't tell them what to do, think or feel. I will simply tell them the stakes, who we're up against and the fact that Biden can be held accountable. You do what you need to do; I will not sit here and watch people use MeToo as a political weapon. These women were victims, and each of their stories is their own; to use one womans accusations against another for any reason is shameful. And that includes comparing them as equal.

Shame on any of you using this as a weapon, both against greater movements and posters on this board.

Lost on all of us, is the fact that we take her story as 100% truth, she will never get justice now. We politicized it, we used it as a bludgeon to argue for Bernie as the nom and we used it as a cudgel to accuse the dems as not caring about victims.

Absolute shame.

Click to shrink...

lmao this post is ridiculous. The fact that you care more about what bad faith actors are doing (there aren't many here..) more than the concerns of sexual assault victims is just... ugh.

 

[TheHunter]

lmao this post is ridiculous. The fact that you care more about what bad faith actors are doing (there aren't many here..) more than the concerns of sexual assault victims is just... ugh.

Click to shrink...

I beg to differ and I've said my peace.

 

[Surfinn]

lmao this post is ridiculous. The fact that you care more about what bad faith actors are doing (there aren't many here..) more than the concerns of sexual assault victims is just... ugh.

Click to shrink...

Par for the course, like I said, this thread isn't even safe

 

[VeePs]

I think there are plenty of people who didn't like Biden joining the team now that he is the nominee including Bernie. I think the Reade situation of Time's Up not taking her case shows how there are plenty of people ready to overlook horrible crimes to support the Democratic Party because they believe the ends justify the means.

I think people have a right to not vote for Biden because he sexually assaulted a woman in the 90s. And his victim shouldn't be attacked as a Russian agent or attacked as a political opportunist.

Click to shrink...

Kavanaugh is a rapist, Biden is a rapist, Trump is a rapist as well. People on this board trying to shame sexual assault victims not wanting to vote for Biden and trying to discredit Reade is shameful. We need to be better to these victims and you wonder why people don't come out about these incidents?

And TheHunter that was the most longwinded nothing post I've seen from you, politicized? Its wanting action for people that've hurt and abused, its what MeToo was supposed to stand for.

Click to shrink...

lmao this post is ridiculous. The fact that you care more about what bad faith actors are doing (there aren't many here..) more than the concerns of sexual assault victims is just... ugh.

Click to shrink...

Everything said here I agree with tbh.

 

[RedMercury]

Just as a personal matter, what you and @RedMercury are suggesting about a forum issues discussion board sounds like it could be interesting... or insanely toxic. It'd have to be carefully done. I can talk to the rest of the team about it, but it's hard to shake the feeling sometimes that we'd have to spend an incredibly outsized amount of time and effort moderating it and it'd still be a toxic hellhole.

Click to shrink...

It might be, but the more clear guidelines you put in place, the less it has the potential to be. And it will take time, it won't be an overnight thing. And the team will likely get frustrated- it's important to give people a break from it if they need it so others with fresh eyes can participate in it. The threads would need time to build a culture and expectation around them.

I understand you might be hesitant after what happened last time, but last time we can all admit was a free for all, and it went off the rails, and there was too much placed on too few people. I really think you can make it work, and hey, if it doesn't, at least you tried and the next time someone brings it up you can't say you didn't.

Moderation can always be better. It's gotten harder since the pandemic, though. I don't expect anybody to be fully ameliorated by that, mind. Just explaining the reality of it. Lotta days we only have 2-3 people on at a time, and if a report falls outside of their areas of expertise, well, stuff can sit. We try not to let it.

Click to shrink...

You have like 50,000 users, you can't operate like that. I'm sure I'm not telling you something you don't already know of course. And I don't mean it's their fault or anything, things are messed up right now. But that's shitty for those 2-3 people and they are going to get burned out quick.

 

[Poodlestrike]

It might be, but the more clear guidelines you put in place, the less it has the potential to be. And it will take time, it won't be an overnight thing. And the team will likely get frustrated- it's important to give people a break from it if they need it so others with fresh eyes can participate in it. The threads would need time to build a culture and expectation around them.

I understand you might be hesitant after what happened last time, but last time we can all admit was a free for all, and it went off the rails, and there was too much placed on too few people. I really think you can make it work, and hey, if it doesn't, at least you tried and the next time someone brings it up you can't say you didn't.

Click to shrink...

It was really bad last time. Without getting into specifics. We'd have to put some guardrails up that I don't think a lot of people would be okay with. But I'll bring it up with the team. I'm not sure it'll help even if it happens, though.

 

[deepFlaw]

...my assumption was that the mod team was stretched thin mostly because a lot more people were posting due to not being at their workplace. I guess it does track that some staff - especially those with families - were unable to be available as much instead. But if it's to that point, no wonder people are getting away with shit for entire days before someone catches on. I'm sympathetic and it's obviously a hard thing to handle, but it's not going to end well if more situations like this keep happening as a result.

 

[Pekola]

And you're right, I'm not referring to people taking issue with things we've done as bullying or hostility. I'm mostly referring to people twisting words to say that we're doing something we're not, or not doing something we are. Or tossing back a team members helping hand, or just telling us to go fuck ourselves, etc. etc. This is part of the fear with a forum discussion section/thread as well.

Moderation can always be better. It's gotten harder since the pandemic, though. I don't expect anybody to be fully ameliorated by that, mind. Just explaining the reality of it. Lotta days we only have 2-3 people on at a time, and if a report falls outside of their areas of expertise, well, stuff can sit. We try not to let it.

Click to shrink...

That's still not bullying...because you have the moderation tools and you are an in-group with the power to make it stop.

Yes, it's hurtful to be misunderstood. And there will always be someone who's aggressive or mean, or hurl accusations to moderation as a group (personal insults are a different beast). But that's ALWAYS going to happen. The only thing you can do is be transparent, COMMUNICATE, and NOT let situations fester.

At least then you can reference a past trajectory of good work to fall back on. At the moment, no one knows what's going on. No one knows why moderation is seemingly acting different.

There's absolutely no reason to have similar conversations every few months, because issues aren't being addressed properly.

 

[Stellares]

They are not the same, and I'm getting real tired of people using victims stories as bludgeons for their dishonesty. Each story has different context, different situations and above all...different evidence. STOP COMPARING THE TWO.

It takes real sociopathy to use MeToo as a weapon to bully, debase and defame others. The whole point of MeToo was to listen to women when they told the stories(we listened to Reade) investigate their stories (that too happened) and when able hold those accountable (We currently cannot, as the standard for a he said/she said crime is hard to pass sadly, it's the nature of such crimes). You say you think there's enough there to convict/do something about Biden. I say that's not how this works, nor should it.

I gave an example in Poliera, and I'll use it here again.

"The lesson of MeToo was to believe when woman made accusations, not laugh them off. It was to investigate and corroborate stories and information. Finally, it was to hold those found guilty accountable. No one signed off on Spanish Inquisitions. Because what we have now is not enough clearly for the public at large. That is the unfortunate nature of such personal crimes. When it is one persons word against another you need as much evidence and corroboration as possible. ??? doesn't mean I don't believe her allegation. It means I don't have enough to take action.

For example, in a less serious crime let's say your son or daughter has a favorite toy. Let's say they come up to you and say another kid stole it. What do you do?

Me? I believe my child, but I'm not going to go over and punch the other kid in the face; nor am I going to angrily go over to his home and bust the door down demanding penance for their crime. I'm going to investigate, I'm going to figure out the whole story and if I can prove that kid did it well then sir we're going to have problems. If I can't prove it? If I never even see said toy with kid? What kind of asshole would I look like if I came storming into their home making demands and threatening them? Calling their child a thief and bastard? Instead I might have a polite conversation with their parents.

Now of course, stealing a toy and rape are not equivalent. I'm merely trying to point out why ??? doesn't mean I don't not believe Reade. It simply means I personally need more info to sign off on certain actions. I was already going to hold Biden accountable to not being so goddamn touchy, now no matter what happens further I will be watching on this front harsher.

This also ties back to Ford because I increasingly see people use it as an example of partisanship. We all demanded to hear her out first, investigate and corroborate. And once they did(and the GOP not only tried to not investigate but outright sabotage it) then we made demands. You are not seeing us tell Reade to go away(ignore very online twitter folks). We saw this allegation come out and said "lets wait and see" and we did.

Again, in a perfect world we wouldn't have this conversation. I don't like Biden. I don't like his touchy behavior or old style chauvinism or out of touch ways let alone his "come together politics". What I do recognize is we can't pull the trigger on this without the voters and public on board. They are clearly not on board(because there isn't enough). "

I understand the pain of victims, and I won't tell them what to do, think or feel. I will simply tell them the stakes, who we're up against and the fact that Biden can be held accountable. You do what you need to do; I will not sit here and watch people use MeToo as a political weapon. These women were victims, and each of their stories is their own; to use one womans accusations against another for any reason is shameful. And that includes comparing them as equal.

Shame on any of you using this as a weapon, both against greater movements and posters on this board.

Lost on all of us, is the fact that we take her story as 100% truth, she will never get justice now. We politicized it, we used it as a bludgeon to argue for Bernie as the nom and we used it as a cudgel to accuse the dems as not caring about victims.

Absolute shame.

Click to shrink...

Are you joking, this is your takeaway? You are in a thread of people despairing over the treatment of a rape victim, and rape victims on this site, and you use this post to get mad at a boogeyman?
Point out who here is using this as a political weapon, because I only see people upset at the crickets and constant downplaying from people who should be supportive but are acting shameful.

It's real awful to compare a rape of an adult to a child and a stolen toy...give me a break. You know exactly what you were doing by substituting a child in for an adult. The whole reason your hesitancy in that situation is acceptable is because its your child, not an adult. A more apt comparison would be your partner coming to you and saying she was robbed. You would absolutely believe her because she is not a freaking child. This reads like a long winded rant to make it pretty clear where you stand without actually saying the words directly. You can dance around it and use flowery language but its evident you don't think she is credible.

Oh and lets not kid ourselves, Ford was definitely believed at the onset on here, as she should have been. It didn't take an investigation to convince anyone.
There have been collaborations of Reade's account and when it comes to an accusation dealing something from 30 years ago there isn't going to be a smoking gun. There isn't anything further to "wait and see". You either believe her or you do not.

 

[TheHunter]

Are you joking, this is your takeaway? You are in a thread of people despairing over the treatment of a rape victim, and rape victims on this site, and you use this post to get mad at a boogeyman?
Point out who here is using this as a political weapon, because I only see people upset at the crickets and constant downplaying from people who should be supportive but are acting shameful.

It's real awful to compare a rape of an adult to a child and a stolen toy...give me a break. You know exactly what you were doing by substituting a child in for an adult. The whole reason your hesitancy in that situation is acceptable is because its your child, not an adult. A more apt comparison would be your partner coming to you and saying she was robbed. You would absolutely believe her because she is not a freaking child. This reads like a long winded rant to make it pretty clear where you stand without actually saying the words directly. You can dance around it and use flowery language but its evident you don't think she is credible.

Oh and lets not kid ourselves, Ford was definitely believed at the onset on here, as she should have been. It didn't take an investigation to convince anyone.
There have been collaborations of Reade's account and when it comes to an accusation dealing something from 30 years ago there isn't going to be a smoking gun. There isn't anything further to "wait and see". You either believe her or you do not.

Click to shrink...

You take the Spanish Inquisition route.

I'll take the "I actually do believe her, but we don't have enough to do something about it route." Because I don't think a lot of you realize what you're signing off on if we just take women's stories as fact without corroboration or evidence and act upon them.

That isn't justice, it's mob rule. And that will lead to terrible places for us all.

Believe =/= take action is what my child toy story meant.

 

[Poodlestrike]

That's still not bullying...because you have the moderation tools and you are an in-group with the power to make it stop.

Yes, it's hurtful to be misunderstood. And there will always be someone who's aggressive or mean, or hurl accusations to moderation as a group (personal insults are a different beast). But that's ALWAYS going to happen. The only thing you can do is be transparent, COMMUNICATE, and NOT let situations fester.

At least then you can reference a past trajectory of good work to fall back on. At the moment, no one knows what's going on. No one knows why moderation is seemingly acting different.

There's absolutely no reason to have similar conversations every few months, because issues aren't being addressed properly.

Click to shrink...

Trying to work up a response to this but RL stuff is calling so it could be a bit.

 

[Goat Mimicry]

You all have to accept that other victims who are not on the staff matter just as much as the ones on it and stop banning people who disagree with you on the simplest things.

Click to shrink...

Replace "banning" with "relentlessly attacking" and this part of your post would be valid advice as to how you might adjust your own personal behavior.

Rampage posted what's at stake if Trump wins, but she clearly stated that there was nothing wrong with victims refusing to vote for Biden. You immediately shouted her down. She clarified her point multiple times (though she had already made it incredibly obvious), but you (and others) continuously refused to do anything but take her words in the worst possible meaning.

I have no problem with someone asking for understanding, but it rings hollow coming from somebody who clearly isn't interested in extending that courtesy to others.

 

[Xaszatm]

...well this thread blew up while I was busy...

 

[JABEE]

You take the Spanish Inquisition route.

I'll take the "I actually do believe her, but we don't have enough to do something about it route." Because I don't think a lot of you realize what you're signing off on if we just take women's stories as fact without corroboration or evidence and act upon them.

That isn't justice, it's mob rule. And that will lead to terrible places for us all. Also, you shouldn't smear his victims as Russian agents or assets.

Believe =/= take action is what my child toy story meant.

Click to shrink...

But aren't we just saying he can't be President and it is understandable why people don't want to vote for him?

We're not executing him. He just shouldn't be the most powerful man in America. Also, you shouldn't smear his victims as Russian agents/assets.

 

[Quzar]

You take the Spanish Inquisition route.

I'll take the "I actually do believe her, but we don't have enough to do something about it route." Because I don't think a lot of you realize what you're signing off on if we just take women's stories as fact without corroboration or evidence and act upon them.

That isn't justice, it's mob rule. And that will lead to terrible places for us all.

Believe =/= take action is what my child toy story meant.

Click to shrink...

I hope nobody dear to you is ever sexually assaulted because this is the worst behavior an "ally" would exhibit.

 

[TheHunter]

But aren't we just saying he can't be President and it is understandable why people don't want to vote for him?

We're not executing him. He just shouldn't be the most powerful man in America.

Click to shrink...

Then you do what you have to do.

Stop using Fords story as comparison for Reade. Victims stories are not spectator sports.

 

[Icolin]

Because I don't think a lot of you realize what you're signing off on if we just take women's stories as fact without corroboration or evidence and act upon them.

Click to shrink...

signing off on believing women seems good to me, especially when it has been corroborated

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/15/seriousness-flaws-tara-reades-allegations/

Reade says she told her mother, who has since passed away. When contacted recently, her brother initially recalled Reade telling him in 1993 that Biden had behaved inappropriately by touching her neck and shoulders; it was only several days after providing this account to The Post that the brother reached out to add that he remembered her saying Biden had reached "under her clothes."

In perhaps the most powerful piece of corroboration, a friend of Reade's, who had interned for another member of Congress, corroborated Reade's account of telling her about the incident at the time, but she declined to be named.

Click to shrink...

 

[JABEE]

Then you do what you have to do.

Stop using Fords story as comparison for Reade. Victims stories are not spectator sports.

Click to shrink...

Hunter. This is fucked up. Fuck Kavanaugh and Fuck Biden. I will continue to compare them and you can do whatever you want.

 

[TheHunter]

Allyship indeed.

 

[Valkrai]

Then you do what you have to do.

Stop using Fords story as comparison for Reade. Victims stories are not spectator sports.

Click to shrink...

Are you really continuing trying to discredit this women, especially when it's been corroborated already? Jesus christ, please just stop.

 

[Xaszatm]

Then you do what you have to do.

Stop using Fords story as comparison for Reade. Victims stories are not spectator sports.

Click to shrink...

Victims are also not fodder for the voting machine who can turn off their trauma at will.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I understand the pain of victims, and I won't tell them what to do, think or feel. I will simply tell them the stakes, who we're up against and the fact that Biden can be held accountable.

Click to shrink...

One of the main reasons why this thread exists is because victims do not appreciate being pressured into taking a hit "for the greater good."

 

[RedMercury]

That's still not bullying...because you have the moderation tools and you are an in-group with the power to make it stop.

Click to shrink...

Just want to address this, mods can be subject to some real vile shit. Especially with this site given there are sites dedicated to harassing and doxxing people here. I could send you messages I've received that were I in a bad place at the time would have been a real tipping point, and also things that have left me with permanent trauma, all because I wanted to be a volunteer internet janitor (like Volimar!). Mods don't have the power to stop comments before they are made, and once you've seen it the damage is done. That's not excusing that in this instance there is obviously a blind spot or practices that can be better addressed, and it has had an effect on some people's mental well-being, but the answer to that isn't throwing out the mental well-being of other people. We can find a solution to this where that doesn't have to happen or can be mitigated.

 

[Ketkat]

Replace "banning" with "relentlessly attacking" and this part of your post would be valid advice as to how you might adjust your own personal behavior.

Rampage posted what's at stake if Trump wins, but she clearly stated that there was nothing wrong with victims refusing to vote for Biden. You immediately shouted her down. She clarified her point multiple times (though she had already made it incredibly obvious), but you (and others) continuously refused to do anything but take her words in the worst possible meaning.

I have no problem with someone asking for understanding, but it rings hollow coming from somebody who clearly isn't interested in extending that courtesy to others.

Click to shrink...

Alright then. Let's take a look at that Rampage post.

Victims are not being shamed, people are telling you the truth- there are a multitude of issues at stake, including multiple women's issues. If you don't vote for Biden- we don't get to clean up the Supreme Court, and then women get to kiss Roe vs. Wade goodbye. Don't vote for Biden, Planned Parenthood, both health service and abortion for women continue to be gutted or out right eliminated in states where women have no other options for healthcare. If you care about rape victims, then we need to get every Republican out of government ASAP, so we can get actually laws and courts to protect those victims.

Click to shrink...

This part was directly aimed at victims, saying that we are not being shamed by directly talking about these as consequences. If victims do not vote for Biden, then they are responsible for the loss of Roe vs Wade, the loss of Planned Parenthood, the loss of health services for women, and the loss of access to abortion for women. Rampage can add a caveat of trying to say that they understand why victims can't vote, but that does not change this part of their post directly blaming victims who do not vote for the loss of these actions if Trump enacts them down the line.

Let's be clear here, 50% of Americans do not vote in Presidential Elections. They do this because candidates do not appeal to them, because of gerrymandering, voter suppression, lack of federal holidays for voting, and so many other reasons but you and Rampage and so many others keep digging your heels in on victims of sexual assault who are uncomfortable voting for Biden. You want them to ignore any trauma they might have from their past, any misgivings they might have about actively helping put a rapist in the white house, so that they can make life better for you. You all need to stop pretending that stating these in relation to trauma related to sexual assault survivors is anything but trying to shame us into voting for Biden. Because if we can't push past our own trauma, then we are hurting others, and that's something we should feel bad about.

Focus on literally any other part of the 50% of Americans and maybe you all would look less like assholes, less like hypocrites, and actually be able to win an election. Because I can guarantee you that the low turnout for Sanders in all of these primaries was not because of sexual assault victims.

 

[TaySan]

Focus on literally any other part of the 50% of Americans and maybe you all would look less like assholes, less like hypocrites, and actually be able to win an election. Because I can guarantee you that the low turnout for Sanders in all of these primaries was not because of sexual assault victims.

Click to shrink...

Agree 100 percent. The onus should never be placed on victims and there is so many Americans to focus your energy and efforts on. Just be respectful and move on when someone tells you they are uncomfortable.

 

[milkyway]

I think it's hard to know how to react when we're just outside spectators trying to make sense of conflicting information presented to us. It's infinitely harder to be a victim of sexual assault and question whether it was your own damn fault or not. Let's not err on the side of the alleged perpetrator unless we have concrete evidence to believe they're innocent, I think.

 

[Pekola]

Just want to address this, mods can be subject to some real vile shit. Especially with this site given there are sites dedicated to harassing and doxxing people here. I could send you messages I've received that were I in a bad place at the time would have been a real tipping point, and also things that have left me with permanent trauma, all because I wanted to be a volunteer internet janitor (like Volimar!). Mods don't have the power to stop comments before they are made, and once you've seen it the damage is done. That's not excusing that in this instance there is obviously a blind spot or practices that can be better addressed, and it has had an effect on some people's mental well-being, but the answer to that isn't throwing out the mental well-being of other people. We can find a solution to this where that doesn't have to happen or can be mitigated.

Click to shrink...

Yes, and it is with them to develop strategies to work around those kinds of things.

Wether that's doubling the number of moderators, creating best practices to assess the well-being of the moderators and provide appropriate support, or whatever else is needed. But because they're mods, they're not going to be able to avoid a lot of the toxicity. I assume that's part of the job.

Note that we weren't talking about doxxing or harassment, as those are very different from an exasperated member making off-handed comments about moderation as a group.

 

[Natiko]

We felt that considering the linked footage is of a rapist lying his way to a supreme court seat, the comparison minimized the awfulness of what Kavanaugh did. Ortix's post was bannable. Kavanaugh's rant was on another level entirely.

Click to shrink...

And people being banned for reacting poorly to someone trolling and posting garbage like Ortix did minimized the awfulness of Ortix's posts. I get it though - moderator feelings get hurt and that's worth a month long ban. Shaming rape and abuse victims though? Yeah, that's not worth a month long ban. That sends a great message. I'm sure you can see why the optics of this are tremendously awful.

 

[rras1994]

Alright then. Let's take a look at that Rampage post.



This part was directly aimed at victims, saying that we are not being shamed by directly talking about these as consequences. If victims do not vote for Biden, then they are responsible for the loss of Roe vs Wade, the loss of Planned Parenthood, the loss of health services for women, and the loss of access to abortion for women. Rampage can add a caveat of trying to say that they understand why victims can't vote, but that does not change this part of their post directly blaming victims who do not vote for the loss of these actions if Trump enacts them down the line.

Let's be clear here, 50% of Americans do not vote in Presidential Elections. They do this because candidates do not appeal to them, because of gerrymandering, voter suppression, lack of federal holidays for voting, and so many other reasons but you and Rampage and so many others keep digging your heels in on victims of sexual assault who are uncomfortable voting for Biden. You want them to ignore any trauma they might have from their past, any misgivings they might have about actively helping put a rapist in the white house, so that they can make life better for you. You all need to stop pretending that stating these in relation to trauma related to sexual assault survivors is anything but trying to shame us into voting for Biden. Because if we can't push past our own trauma, then we are hurting others, and that's something we should feel bad about.

Focus on literally any other part of the 50% of Americans and maybe you all would look less like assholes, less like hypocrites, and actually be able to win an election. Because I can guarantee you that the low turnout for Sanders in all of these primaries was not because of sexual assault victims.

Click to shrink...

You cherry picked her quote to make it seem like she was saying victims had to vote for Biden. Why are you doing that? You know she's aiming that at people who aren't victims, you know she said in that post victims shouldn't vote for Biden if they can't. You know she felt chased out of that thread. Mainly by you.

 

[Surfinn]

They are not the same, and I'm getting real tired of people using victims stories as bludgeons for their dishonesty. Each story has different context, different situations and above all...different evidence. STOP COMPARING THE TWO.

It takes real sociopathy to use MeToo as a weapon to bully, debase and defame others. The whole point of MeToo was to listen to women when they told the stories(we listened to Reade) investigate their stories (that too happened) and when able hold those accountable (We currently cannot, as the standard for a he said/she said crime is hard to pass sadly, it's the nature of such crimes). You say you think there's enough there to convict/do something about Biden. I say that's not how this works, nor should it.

I gave an example in Poliera, and I'll use it here again.

"The lesson of MeToo was to believe when woman made accusations, not laugh them off. It was to investigate and corroborate stories and information. Finally, it was to hold those found guilty accountable. No one signed off on Spanish Inquisitions. Because what we have now is not enough clearly for the public at large. That is the unfortunate nature of such personal crimes. When it is one persons word against another you need as much evidence and corroboration as possible. ??? doesn't mean I don't believe her allegation. It means I don't have enough to take action.

For example, in a less serious crime let's say your son or daughter has a favorite toy. Let's say they come up to you and say another kid stole it. What do you do?

Me? I believe my child, but I'm not going to go over and punch the other kid in the face; nor am I going to angrily go over to his home and bust the door down demanding penance for their crime. I'm going to investigate, I'm going to figure out the whole story and if I can prove that kid did it well then sir we're going to have problems. If I can't prove it? If I never even see said toy with kid? What kind of asshole would I look like if I came storming into their home making demands and threatening them? Calling their child a thief and bastard? Instead I might have a polite conversation with their parents.

Now of course, stealing a toy and rape are not equivalent. I'm merely trying to point out why ??? doesn't mean I don't not believe Reade. It simply means I personally need more info to sign off on certain actions. I was already going to hold Biden accountable to not being so goddamn touchy, now no matter what happens further I will be watching on this front harsher.

This also ties back to Ford because I increasingly see people use it as an example of partisanship. We all demanded to hear her out first, investigate and corroborate. And once they did(and the GOP not only tried to not investigate but outright sabotage it) then we made demands. You are not seeing us tell Reade to go away(ignore very online twitter folks). We saw this allegation come out and said "lets wait and see" and we did.

Again, in a perfect world we wouldn't have this conversation. I don't like Biden. I don't like his touchy behavior or old style chauvinism or out of touch ways let alone his "come together politics". What I do recognize is we can't pull the trigger on this without the voters and public on board. They are clearly not on board(because there isn't enough). "

I understand the pain of victims, and I won't tell them what to do, think or feel. I will simply tell them the stakes, who we're up against and the fact that Biden can be held accountable. You do what you need to do; I will not sit here and watch people use MeToo as a political weapon. These women were victims, and each of their stories is their own; to use one womans accusations against another for any reason is shameful. And that includes comparing them as equal.

Shame on any of you using this as a weapon, both against greater movements and posters on this board.

Lost on all of us, is the fact that we take her story as 100% truth, she will never get justice now. We politicized it, we used it as a bludgeon to argue for Bernie as the nom and we used it as a cudgel to accuse the dems as not caring about victims.

Absolute shame.

Click to shrink...

This is one of the most revolting posts I've ever seen on ERA. Truly backwards and incredibly embarrassing.

Shame on you for coming into this thread, of all places, and posting such insulting nonsense. Shit like this is why I've largely stayed away from other political threads. This is supposed to be a safe place for people who have been silenced, shamed and hurt on ERA. Because of you, this thread needs to exist.

Her story is credible. Even Farrow's then producer at NBC, someone who helped him break the Weinstein report, decided to publish her account publicly.

 

[Ketkat]

You cherry picked her quote to make it seem like she was saying victims had to vote for Biden. Why are you doing that? You know she's aiming that at people who aren't victims, you know she said in that post victims shouldn't vote for Biden if they can't. You know she felt chased out of that thread. Mainly by you.

Click to shrink...

Rampage says that they understand if victims can't vote, but that does not negate the entire paragraph before that aimed directly at victims. I did not cobble together random sentences, I took a paragraph that directly starts with "Victims are not being shamed, people are telling you the truth." You can not sit here and pretend that a paragraph that starts with the subject being victims of sexual assault, and never shifting to any other subject, is not about victims of sexual assault. That is not how the English language works, and you know this.

It is entirely possible to make a statement saying you understand if victims don't vote while still having plenty of information in your post directly aimed at victims and how they should be ashamed. Call it "the truth" Or "Facts don't care about your feelings" or whatever else you want, but it is still aimed at victims

 

[Android Sophia]

And people being banned for reacting poorly to someone trolling and posting garbage like Ortix did minimized the awfulness of Ortix's posts. I get it though - moderator feelings get hurt and that's worth a month long ban. Shaming rape and abuse victims though? Yeah, that's not worth a month long ban. That sends a great message. I'm sure you can see why the optics of this are tremendously awful.

Click to shrink...

I'm kind of in-and-out right now due to real life obligations, but I do want to point out something here. Just because Ortix's post was ban worthy doesn't necessarily excuse the other posts for also breaking the rules. The posts that were banned alongside the staff post were all breaking a rule; some of them multiple rules. Things like telling someone to fuck off and calling them a rape apologist, or excessively swearing at our staff just because we haven't made a decision yet don't become acceptable just because it's directed at someone who's taking a ban themselves.

Just want to address this, mods can be subject to some real vile shit. Especially with this site given there are sites dedicated to harassing and doxxing people here. I could send you messages I've received that were I in a bad place at the time would have been a real tipping point, and also things that have left me with permanent trauma, all because I wanted to be a volunteer internet janitor (like Volimar!). Mods don't have the power to stop comments before they are made, and once you've seen it the damage is done. That's not excusing that in this instance there is obviously a blind spot or practices that can be better addressed, and it has had an effect on some people's mental well-being, but the answer to that isn't throwing out the mental well-being of other people. We can find a solution to this where that doesn't have to happen or can be mitigated.

Click to shrink...

Heh, understatement of the year. One day I'll possibly talk about how many old wounds (including abuse) that I've had opened back up because of moderating.

 

[rras1994]

Rampage says that they understand if victims can't vote, but that does not negate the entire paragraph before that aimed directly at victims. I did not cobble together random sentences, I took a paragraph that directly starts with "Victims are not being shamed, people are telling you the truth." You can not sit here and pretend that a paragraph that starts with the subject being victims of sexual assault, and never shifting to any other subject, is not about victims of sexual assault. That is not how the English language works, and you know this.

It is entirely possible to make a statement saying you understand if victims don't vote while still having plenty of information in your post directly aimed at victims and how they should be ashamed. Call it "the truth" Or "Facts don't care about your feelings" or whatever else you want, but it is still aimed at victims

Click to shrink...

There was a whole paragraph before that about who she felt talked over and not represented. What you are doing is unfair. Read the staff post again, and this time get to the part where multiple sexual assault victims don't feel like they can post their opinions without getting bullied and harassed. I also read her posts and don't agree she was shaming victims. This thread is titled how this forum treats sexual assault victims, that means all of them.

 

[Ketkat]

I'm kind of in-and-out right now due to real life obligations, but I do want to point out something here. Just because Ortix's post was ban worthy doesn't necessarily excuse the other posts for also breaking the rules. The posts that were banned alongside the mod post were all breaking a rule; some of them multiple rules. Things like telling someone to fuck off and calling them a rape apologist, or excessively swearing at our staff just because we haven't made a decision yet don't become acceptable just because it's directed at someone who's taking a ban themselves.

Click to shrink...

Since when is this true? First of all, it's not an exaggeration to call Ortix a rape apologist, he created multiple conspiracy theories to discredit a victim of sexual abuse for his own benefit. But mainly, since when is it true that people can't push back against someone saying horrific or bigoted things? If someone made a transphobic comment, like they have many times on this forum before, people tear into them all the time, none of those people are hit with bans because they have a very real and personal stake in the kind of comment being thrown out. And also because people who are throwing out bigotry or creating conspiracy theories about victims of sexual abuse should not be protected.

I specifically remember when the change for "Fuck off" came as well because people talked about this as a major issue repeatedly at the start of this site's creation and it was changed within a few months and was allowed since then. Why is this situation different?

And if we want to talk about hostility, let's look at this one :

Ban Ortix

Click to shrink...

This is the entire post, and this person's entire history posting about this issue. What is hostile about wanting Ortix banned when Ortix was literally throwing out conspiracy theories and accusing victims speaking up of acting in bad faith multiple times?

There was a whole paragraph before that about who she felt talked over and in represented. What you are doing is unfair. Read the staff post again, and this time get to the part where multiple sexual assault victims don't feel like they can post their opinions without getting bullied and harassed. I also read her posts and don't agree she was shaming victims. This thread is titled how this forum treats sexual assault victims, that means all of them.

Click to shrink...

That includes me, dingus. I am a victim, and I am giving my opinion on the vast number of posts that I have seen that I have felt like are shaming victims like myself. Rampage's post and many like it make me feel uncomfortable with the way they place the burden of responsibility of Trump's actions on victims of sexual assault's heads instead of voters who voted for Biden, Biden's actions themselves, or the fucked up reality of having to pick between two rapists to put in charge. I don't blame a single person who does not want to vote for Biden because it makes me sick just thinking about putting someone like that in charge.

 

[Surfinn]

I am too disappointed and tired to keep fighting this the way I was for the past three weeks. I want to thank Ketkat and all others in this thread taking a stand for what has been outlined in the OP, including those who spoke up harshly and were banned for it.

You're the only reason I haven't closed my account.

 

[Ultraviolence]

I'm kind of in-and-out right now due to real life obligations, but I do want to point out something here. Just because Ortix's post was ban worthy doesn't necessarily excuse the other posts for also breaking the rules. The posts that were banned alongside the staff post were all breaking a rule; some of them multiple rules. Things like telling someone to fuck off and calling them a rape apologist, or excessively swearing at our staff just because we haven't made a decision yet don't become acceptable just because it's directed at someone who's taking a ban themselves.



Heh, understatement of the year. One day I'll possibly talk about how many old wounds (including abuse) that I've had opened back up because of moderating.

Click to shrink...

Hoooooly shit are you guys losing control of the ship

 

[lowmelody]

I don't know what to even say about the last couple pages. I can't believe things have come to this. Victims are the first ones cut loose in when it comes down to it as they are the least convenient to "manage". It's been spelled out to me lots of times and now it's open season if we're allowing victims to suffer for having the courage to defend themselves against scum low enough to target us in the first place. There is an endless stream of monsters within and outside the community that will get their shot in at us and this will ensure there will be almost none us left by the time Nov even arrives.

 

[deepFlaw]

I'm kind of in-and-out right now due to real life obligations, but I do want to point out something here. Just because Ortix's post was ban worthy doesn't necessarily excuse the other posts for also breaking the rules. The posts that were banned alongside the staff post were all breaking a rule; some of them multiple rules. Things like telling someone to fuck off and calling them a rape apologist, or excessively swearing at our staff just because we haven't made a decision yet don't become acceptable just because it's directed at someone who's taking a ban themselves.

Click to shrink...

(Bolding by me)

With all due respect: it seems like it was over 24 hours before Ortix's post was handled. If you consider the other one that was linked, it was over a week. I understand that decisions take time even without the current extra strain on staff, but at some point people are naturally going to think that a decision was made, and that it was that the posts were acceptable.

 

[Deleted member 30681]

Fundamentally, I just cannot help but feel that the rules surrounding discussion of Tara Reade's allegations are completely different than the rules for discussing most other cases similar to this one. I can't help but feel a level of hypocrisy from people who would preach about believing women, only to now be spewing conspiracy theories about this particular women, because she has allegations against the champion of the political party you subscribe to.

Principles, and beliefs go above and beyond any political party, and if you claim to be a believer in believing women, only to start doing conspiracy theories on why this particular women came out accusing the Democratic nominee, I can't help but view you as someone who actually doesn't believe in those principles, because in the time when it is the hardest to believe in those things, you abandoned them.

I feel like that general feeling applies to both many members on this site who are currently pressuring, and arguing with every person who has a legitimate reason not to vote in this election, and the moderation team, whose enforcement of any rules surrounding this subject matter have felt extremely lax.

 

[RedMercury]

I am too disappointed and tired to keep fighting this the way I was for the past three weeks. I want to thank Ketkat and all others in this thread taking a stand for what has been outlined in the OP, including those who spoke up harshly and were banned for it.

You're the only reason I haven't closed my account.

Click to shrink...

Site wouldn't be the same without either of you, I'm glad that if I or anyone here ever decide to share what happened to me/us or need to work through anything there's a community here that cares and will listen.