I appreciate the work, really I do. I'm glad to hear the rest of the team are listening and learning, I know my cultural diversity course had a lot of pushback on an article about ableism recently, so, that tied into my disheartedness.
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We need to have a talk about how Era Users Interact with users with Disabilities and Accessibility Issues.
- Thread starter Deleted member 5334
- Start date
I appreciate the work, really I do. I'm glad to hear the rest of the team are listening and learning, I know my cultural diversity course had a lot of pushback on an article about ableism recently, so, that tied into my disheartedness.
I wanted to come back to this post and note something: In this example, what the person has asked for explicitly - remappable controls with options for alternative input outright - is something that, in function, resembles what other users were advocating for carte blanche: The adjustment of controls to make access easier. It's just that in this specific instance, what this person would specifically like is a specific accommodation that fits their specific needs, while also bringing them as close as possible to the experience that others already have. They're thinking in terms of their disability, as opposed to simply 'disability', which is what many others do.
And like, that is a pretty damn fair point to do. Making a game more accessible for someone like me - who while fairly functional in many regards, nevertheless has some executive difficulties because autism be like that sometimes - is not the same as making a game more accessible to someone who could handle a complex sequence just fine so long as it wasn't having to waggle a small joystick around, as opposed to say, a quick series of buttons, or someone who could do the joystick just fine so long as they could replace the final button press with a joystick click, because they don't have the extra digits. Like, it feels like it should be obvious enough given the whole premise of the matter outright, but it really is worth stressing that differing people have differing needs, and trying to reduce conversations around accessibility as close to a yes/no dichotomy as possible is in many ways a disservice to the cause. Hell, one could argue that not all games have to be made as accessible as possible to everyone (though there are many common things that would be very useful as standards), but if each game had least had its particular ways that they could be adjusted for given demographics of disability, then at least there could be options to point towards if talking to someone trying to find an experience that might welcome them. That ain't perfect, but it would be at least somewhat reasonable given the varying levels of resources available to developers; sad to say though, we're not even there yet.
Along with accessibility options I would love for companies like Sony to make more (really any) good quality disability friendly controllers.
In 2015 I had a very simple trigger thumb surgery, it went bad and I ended up with CRPS (Complex Regional Pain Syndrome) and my thumb stuck straight. I have very little use of my thumb and my left hand is very weak because I am not able to use it much either. I can use a controller for a very limited amount of time but not with any precision at all. I have given up playing 99% of console games because I just can't use the controller good enough or without an increased amount of pain. I will once in a while try a 2 player game with my husband but it usually does not work out very well and we end up giving up.
I really hate the "get good" mentality some gamers seem to have as well. For lots of reasons, disabilities or not, not all people can be pro gamers and I see nothing wrong with offering options in games to make things easier. If someone wants to play a game on extra hard that is great for them, if someone else wants to play it on extra easy great for them. Games should be fun and everyone of all skill levels should be able to play them.
In 2015 I had a very simple trigger thumb surgery, it went bad and I ended up with CRPS (Complex Regional Pain Syndrome) and my thumb stuck straight. I have very little use of my thumb and my left hand is very weak because I am not able to use it much either. I can use a controller for a very limited amount of time but not with any precision at all. I have given up playing 99% of console games because I just can't use the controller good enough or without an increased amount of pain. I will once in a while try a 2 player game with my husband but it usually does not work out very well and we end up giving up.
I really hate the "get good" mentality some gamers seem to have as well. For lots of reasons, disabilities or not, not all people can be pro gamers and I see nothing wrong with offering options in games to make things easier. If someone wants to play a game on extra hard that is great for them, if someone else wants to play it on extra easy great for them. Games should be fun and everyone of all skill levels should be able to play them.
It's also worth noting that we have a lot of users here on the autism spectrum, myself included, who have difficulty putting their thoughts together and thus come off as having bad takes when they are just being misunderstood, which can lead to negative responses which just kills one's mental health further. PLEASE try to look at things from a different perspective when people say stuff, sometimes they are just misinformed, that doesn't mean you need to call them a fucking moron.
This has been frustratingly exacerbated by trolling and disingenuous sorts. People are increasingly conditioned to simply dismiss 'misunderstanding' as the work of people who never intend to understand, rather than as having any difficulty doing so. Why waste the energy on someone probably acting in bad faith, right?
I mean disability rights are very far behind everything else today and is the only demographic you can join later in life. I mean the ADA has alot of loopholes in it still.
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Yeeeep.
For anyone who wants to see what we're talking about:
Easy/Assist mode is a blessing. Every game should have it.
So you're playing the game, it's challenging enough, you die a bit, you make some mistakes and it's ok, that's how games are. And then you get at the boss. You fight the boss, 3, 4, 5, 20, 30 times. You get frustrated, you finally win after 40 tries. Do you feel good about you? Well, I don't...
www.resetera.com
I'm a bit sick, so I can't easily respond in this thread today as much as I would like, but anyone who wants to, definitely the support is welcome.
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Man, that thread is fucking infuriating.
Also why are CLEARLY ablest comments not being modded? Seriously, what the hell.
Also why are CLEARLY ablest comments not being modded? Seriously, what the hell.
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Like, I don't understand, between difficulty/options threads, and gyro/motion control threads, why people will dog pile us with disabilities and they can just get off scott free a lot of the times. It's infuriating.
This is a damn good post. Too many gamers (and anyone in a passionate fandom really) have a tendency to lionize creators and put the creative process on a pedestal that belies what they actually understand about said process.
All I'll say is, it would be nice if the "normies" were just a little more understanding of and patient with the atypical communication style many of us whom are neurodivergent and suffer from severe mental illness employ. For my part, I can pledge to you that I'm trying my very best and that I'm as harmless as they come. Really.
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Yeah, this is something I relate to, since it's something I've long since struggled with my whole life. Honestly, if I ever misunderstand something, or post something that comes off differently than I intended, I legit apologize for that.
I kept trying to figure out how to reply to a user earlier that also posted a similar message, and I kept going back and forth worried it might've came off ill intent, even though I suffer from the same issue and was trying to write in support.
I feel like we're our own worst enemy when we deal with these issues. Ugh.
I swear that a part of why I've developed a speech pattern that is often so particular and so verbose is that I've conditioned myself to think that, if I explain myself in as precise terms as possible, it will avoid any confusion over my intent and meaning.
This assumes I don't just miss the mark entirely, or don't become such a wall of text and/or speech that any recipients don't just tune out. Hell, I've had people take the fact I'm often not concise to be a sign of disingenuous behaviour (partly because of alt-right grifters using similar mannerisms to sound smart), so... yeah. That's fun.
This assumes I don't just miss the mark entirely, or don't become such a wall of text and/or speech that any recipients don't just tune out. Hell, I've had people take the fact I'm often not concise to be a sign of disingenuous behaviour (partly because of alt-right grifters using similar mannerisms to sound smart), so... yeah. That's fun.
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Looking through the topic, and nothing seems to have been done yet on reports as of yet that I've reported so far. Mind, I get mods are likely (enlarge) asleep given time zones, but I can't imagine since the issues cropped up immediately when the topic started yesterday and the mods haven't responded to this yet.
How long has it been since you reported? I wonder if the Asian Community fallout and feedback threads has the staff tied up and backlogged at the moment. Either way, you think people would have learned from the controller accessibility thread.
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I reported the posts over the course of a couple hours, and now I just made a general report to the OP post to have moderators look through the thread on a general basis. So I understand it was in the middle of the night when I reported those, so it's not so much my reports in question, it's just the issues cropped up 6PM EDT, when the thread was made and it was already immediately happening. So I'm really frustrating that nothings been done about the issues at the start of the thread yesterday and I can't imagine users have NOT reported some of those posts from yesterday.
I was reporting about 12hrs ago, but received a denial about 6-7hrs ago?
I re-reported with a disagreement with what I felt were the most egregious, but I haven't heard since.
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Well that's just an egregious demonstration of the issue that disability is not considered part of 'general' concerns, but only to apply when something is deemed specifically about disability. But that is itself exclusionary, dammit.
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I literally just snapped on the user in this post (you can see below):
www.resetera.com
Like, I am so FUCKING tired of this god damn shit, and it's fucking infuriating.
Easy/Assist mode is a blessing. Every game should have it.
Un-fucking-believable. You literally just handwaved my entire argument. Including going down to the Restaurant bit. Many Restaurants will carry warnings if there's a chance their product may not be able to avoid certain allergies (most notably places that enlarge deal with sea food), so that...
www.resetera.com
Like, I am so FUCKING tired of this god damn shit, and it's fucking infuriating.
Been keeping a eye on this thread as someone with both physical and mental disabilities, I've stay away as the hate is extreme but fuck that easy/assist thread is where I'm now in to fight. This shit has to stop.
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I'm so fucking frustrated with the responses and I'm trying to stay calm, but I'm definitely losing my cool in that thread.
I get you,but they ain't worth the stress nor the ban, with a ban you can't speak out and that's what they want.
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The response is absolutely SOMETHING. My god...
I know, I know, but it's like... Why can't we get ANYTHING done about this?
I don't really post often, but I lurk a lot. That thread has me fuming. I am so fucking sick and tired to the point of tears from being told to "git gud". At this point of my life I am not going to "git Gud", I'm not going to get better, instead I am slowly deteriorating. I am hoping that I'll still be able to enjoy the games I like in 5 or 10 years time, and that is only going to happen if we get more accessibility options. Fuck these assholes and their gate keeping, fuck it all.
Sorry, I just came here from that thread, and this moderation response is god awful. That thread is a trash heap of ableism, but... the thread "wasn't about disabled gamers" so the ableism isn't actionable? Excuse me?
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The most fucking vile response in the thread, so far, is the user saying that "they shouldn't have to cower behind disabled gamers". Like, asking for accessibility and respect is apparently so much to ask???
But yeah, it's been really frustrating and I absolutely feel you there. Seriously, fuck this shit so much.
Like, it's STILL an ablest post at the end of the day. Like, in NO way should that be excusable. Hell, the OP in the very thread, they DID say it wasn't what they were talking about, but they said this in response:
They did not once, hand-wave what I said, and agreed with me on the topic in question, even if the intent was different. So the moderator's post is absolutely confusing and again, it does NOT excuse ablest comments.
Because we are a tiny minority in a forum full of them. This thread is our stand, the same as what lead to the black community mod meeting and the Asian community mod meeting.Hopefully it takes us a lot shorter time to get our say.
Like I said, there is very much a mindset where people only think about disability when they think they have to specifically think about disability. And like, it's not even a thing where they would necessarily have to agree to the suggestions made - especially as people with differing needs will have differing perspectives - but it's at least something that should be kept in mind, and not dismissed as irrelevant when people do raise their perspective on the matter just because because the OP didn't make it a [Disability] Zone or some shit
It is just so fucked. And the fact that so many of these posters also build up these straw men in their minds and that's what they're arguing against and refusing to actually listen to anyone's point - YOU JUST WANT TO BE ABLE TO DICTATE TO THE DEVS WHAT THEY CAN AND CANNOT MAKE AND NOT GIVE THEM ANY CREATIVE FREEDOM!!! Literally no.
Also, I'm absolutely not meaning to seem like I'm perfect on these issues either, as I also miss things that could be considered an issue for people with differing abilities to mine. For me, it's just that my hand-eye coordination isn't amazing and my depth perception is bad because my vision is really poor, but if I concentrate hard, I can play most games. But that's draining af and if I had the option to NOT be extremely drained after playing a game for an hour, that would be great! But I guess since it would take away from some asshole's ability to brag about beating a game on the internet, that's illegal.
Also, I'm absolutely not meaning to seem like I'm perfect on these issues either, as I also miss things that could be considered an issue for people with differing abilities to mine. For me, it's just that my hand-eye coordination isn't amazing and my depth perception is bad because my vision is really poor, but if I concentrate hard, I can play most games. But that's draining af and if I had the option to NOT be extremely drained after playing a game for an hour, that would be great! But I guess since it would take away from some asshole's ability to brag about beating a game on the internet, that's illegal.
Harsh truth, but there it is.
Reading that thread was sad. I'll never understand why gamers defend lack of easy mode so hard.
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I'm gonna step away from that particular topic a bit. Not feeling well and I legit need a break. My god.
Plus there's so many bad faith arguments in there, that I don't even know HOW to respond to some of them, because I'm so mentally exhausted at this point (plus still under the weather somewhat) and just tired of dealing with this crap.
Plus there's so many bad faith arguments in there, that I don't even know HOW to respond to some of them, because I'm so mentally exhausted at this point (plus still under the weather somewhat) and just tired of dealing with this crap.
Yeah, I agree! I've never been able-bodied, but, when I was -more- able-bodied than I am now, I didn't really think much on it, I told myself to git gud and had much the same opinion of 'well if the devs don't do it..."
Now I am older, more run-down, less able-bodied, and done some cultural diversity training and been a member of an advocacy board? Nah, I don't have to put that on myself, and, I have a voice, and I can use it.
I hope you can get some rest. Take care of yourself first, for sure
Yeah, exactly. I am not so eloquent at times when it comes to expressing my opinions, but I just can't let it fly when people try to act like asking for a crumb of accessibility is DESTROYING GAMING.
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One thing I'm kinda concerned about is I've submitted numerous reports, including tagging the OP in that thread to just have moderators overlook the thread, and not seen/heard back or have had a single response to the reports...
Thanks! It kinda came out of nowhere last night (in the middle of my streams, of all things, I was doing), but hopefully it'll get better.
Thanks! It kinda came out of nowhere last night (in the middle of my streams, of all things, I was doing), but hopefully it'll get better.
The "funny" thing is, the OP was about when a boss represents a sudden difficulty spike in a game. Didn't even say what kind of boss or game it was from, or from when, until recently pressed on it.
Amazing how limited one's thinking can be when it comes to games, how it must be only this kind of game, or there is only a certain type of player or progression over obstacles in life. This is from a forum that continually complains about level gating in games, but all of a sudden can't abide a simple conversation that takes it from a different angle.
And all the insinuations amounting to "you need to ask for options the right way" or "you're doing this in the wrong place" - would they say this about any other type of complaint or protest? How is this not dismissive?
OP please take the time you need and be well.
Amazing how limited one's thinking can be when it comes to games, how it must be only this kind of game, or there is only a certain type of player or progression over obstacles in life. This is from a forum that continually complains about level gating in games, but all of a sudden can't abide a simple conversation that takes it from a different angle.
And all the insinuations amounting to "you need to ask for options the right way" or "you're doing this in the wrong place" - would they say this about any other type of complaint or protest? How is this not dismissive?
OP please take the time you need and be well.
What I wish you knew about ableism - ABC Everyday
People who easily name racism and sexism do not seem to see the human rights issues that underscore ableism. So that silence is problematic, Ellen Fraser-Barbour writes.
www.abc.net.au
This is one of my cultural diversity courses teaching pieces on ableism and... I just wish I could make people read it. Everyone. All the people.
This is a great article, thank you for sharing. Nepenthe has mentioned a few times in the feedback thread about wanting to create a big collection of resources that could be added to OPs for certain threads to get rid of the leeway given for people making the "oh well i just simply do not know about these things" excuse, and I think this would be a perfect addition.
What I wish you knew about ableism - ABC Everyday
People who easily name racism and sexism do not seem to see the human rights issues that underscore ableism. So that silence is problematic, Ellen Fraser-Barbour writes.
This is one of my cultural diversity courses teaching pieces on ableism and... I just wish I could make people read it. Everyone. All the people.
I'll see if I can PM it to her!
Maybe in the morning its 2:30am...
Ah fuck it