We need to have a talk about Digital Foundry comparisons

[ThreepQuest64]

Comment sections were a mistake. I can totally understand when some content creators stop giving a shit and disable then. Had to do it myself once on my videos.

Sometimes there's no need for user discussion... take it or leave it. And let's be honest: In many if not most cases you want user interaction ("what are you thoughts on this? Write us in the comments below!") for better ranking and more revenue because analysis says that's how you should do it, not because you give a shit about a random person's half-arsed bullshit they're writing up in the comments. But if you constantly get the same flak because some people are utter trash it'll get to your one way or the other.

Anyways, I love DF's content and I hope they'll continue on and don't let their days being ruined by some dipshits.

 

[MouldyK]

Digital Foundry is great.

I don't know what they can realistically do except to ignore the assholes.

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It's true, but they also spilling into the DMs with trash:

 

[Terbinator]

It's true, but they also spilling into the DMs with trash:

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Thelastword 🤣

Whilst they shouldn't have to put up with grieving the simple option is just to block the apes and move on.

I don't know why John et al engage with the idiots and bad faithers.

 

[Dragon1893]

I feel so bad for them. I love their content. I don't know what else to say. So damn tired of this shit.

 

[Vundu]

They just need to be thick skinned and ignore the idiots. Sometimes hard not to bite and reply but best not doing.

 

[itfiend]

Thelastword 🤣

Whilst they shouldn't have to put up with grieving the simple option is just to block the apes and move on.

I don't know why John et al engage with the idiots and bad faithers.

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Because it's relentless, depressing and it shines a light on the dark recesses of a hobby that is still in stark need of strong disinfectant. I remember the Atari/Amiga wars of the 16 bit era, and the C64/Spectrum etc of the 8 bit era and while they were silly they were never toxic in the same way. The idea of getting beyond your mid-teens and still behaving like this is just incomprehensible to me.

 

[Gong]

Seriously, this is a fucking disgrace as the DF folks are just top tier in what they do. I feel so sorry for them when you consider the sheer amount of dedication and information they pour into their videos, whether old hardware/games or the cutting edge of graphics cards, etc.

I wonder if they could put out their videos with comments disabled so they don't have to put up with the shite? I dunno, all I know is it's pathetic that absolute tosspots attach so much relevance to that box under/near the telly that any kind of analysis whether good or bad makes them act this way. Just delete yourself from existence you cowards hiding behind your anonymous accounts.

Digital Foundry, just know that people like myself appreciate what you do. Thank you for all the education you've given this old man, or allowing me to wallow in nostalgia when you cover an older game/console :)

 

[tzare]

I think DF comparisons are nice, as long as they remain on the technical side. But for a while they have been melting the pixel count with subjective opinions a bit too much imo, and that fuels the wars. It is difficult to argue against facts, like number of pixels or framerate, but some subjective comments, especially in forums it Twitter, that can lead to controversy.
I also think, like any other, they can be criticized if necessary. That said, there's a difference in having an opinion and criticizing some of their work, and harassment, the later must not be tolerated.

 

[We_care_a_lot]

I was under the impression that's partially why he stopped posting? I didn't intend to distort anything, it's what I've been reading around here for a while. I'm sorry, I didn't know.

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No you're right. People can act like dipshits here.

 

[Aurongel]

John's a class act and I adore his work. But the guys gotta learn to willingly unplug himself from a lot of the discourse with internet warrior random who are never engaging in any meaningful way beyond bad faith.

We're on a gaming forum so we all share a hobby with one another but it's important to remember that these are essentially high end plastic toys. Partisan politics and hyper polarization leads to situations where people with way too much free time are given an internet megaphone to act tribalistically with the brands they identify with.

If anyone from the DF crew is reading this then please understand that these types of people represent a very vocal but absolutely minuscule portion of their audience. Engaging with them in any way is like killing a cockroach infestation one by one with a hammer. You won't put a dent in anything and you'll just get PTSD from internet weirdos who don't have skin in the game the way you guys do with your business/careers.

 

[Cheapstare]

Harassment is inexcusable, but speaking of DF, I rather prefer Tom's more measured approach than the bombastic stuff produced by Alex and John.

I didn't really appreciate how they talked with/about Tom on stream, either.

 

[Wil348]

This is heartbreaking. For what it's worth John/Rich/Alex/Tom, my partner and I are massive fans of your work and watch your videos religiously. You don't deserve this kind of treatment, no-one does. Please keep up the amazing work, and massive props to you for juggling the immense workload that has come with the launch of the new consoles.

 

[Revolver Oshawott]

John should do himself a favor and close his DMs. Those idiots will never give him a rest.

 

[Deleted member 27723]

Harassment is inexcusable, but speaking of DF, I rather prefer Tom's more measured approach than the bombastic stuff produced by Alex and John.

I didn't really appreciate how they talked with/about Tom on stream, either.

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Why what did they say ?

 

[Nerun]

I mean it is great to see, that John still tries to clear things up and hopes somehow that people actually care about the truths or even arguments, but that's just hope lost on these people. They don't care, otherwise they wouldn't even comment/post in a certain way. At some point you just have to change your stance toward "these" people or you will burn out at some point. John mentions again and again, how it stresses him, they should just remove the option to comment on their videos (whad would be the loss?) and limit time their time on Twitter, this is never going to stop. Threads like these come up again and again and I think that's great, but it will in no way stop "those" people, cause they don't care and/or don't see these threads anyway. The "normal" people will comment and that's it.

The whole DF team does a great job, but some of them need to try to not get "touched" by internet trolls at this point, it's not healthy...and not worth it (sadly). I was a Mod and Admin for one of Germans biggest gaming forums for some time, I was an editor for years and I worked in the games industry, especially during times when people comment your articles or well as a Community Manager / Product Manager you just get the first hand experience, same now if you are responsible for Social Media and/or work in Support.

Let's just say, you hear a lot of ugly stuff, both against yourself and the company you work for, some people you can reach and explain stuff to, others just won't care, doesn't matter what you say and it's not all bad of course, there is still enough positive feedback, especially during conventions, expos, etc. This has happened for many many years and it will continue to happen. Devs getting death threads for a delay of a game, journalists reading how they get paid to score a game a certain way, etc.

In German you would say "Du brauchst ein dickes Fell" ;) Literal translation would be "thick fur", it just basically means you can't get "touched" by all those ... out there or you would loose your mind at some point or get a burnout, etc.

 

[Pulp]

Was waiting for a thread like this. I follow John on Twitter so I have seen him comment on a lot the shit he and the rest of DF receives. Era has an issue with this as has been pointed out already. I think it's frankly disgusting and people need to think more about what they post. I know I wouldn't appreciate people questioning my integrity in the work I do.

 

[Secretofmateria]

People take console warz very seriously don't they? Df does great work. I know its hard to unplug from social media, especially in that kind of work, but its worth while. I got off twitter and facebook a few years ago, havent looked back since. They made me profoundly angry, and unhappy

 

[TheHunter]

It's so odd, because both consoles have really great and very similar specs this time around so I would have thought the console warring wouldn't have been as bad as last gen or especially ps3/360 gen, but it's almost as bad. People are picking apart the tiniest of differences in details like animals picking at scraps.



In North America we've already passed this point. Blue, Red, Good, Bad, My football team, your football team, my flag, your flag. Everything a person does, pays for, or supports, is like they're treating it like they're supporting their home sports team and it's become an issue that has become unsolvable at this point.

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We have people willing to say a virus that has killed 250 thousand Americans is a hoax.

Tribalism has evolved.

 

[Izzard]

Putting vs in a title immediately sets some people off. It's seen as a fight, and fights normally have a winner and loser.
It's a tough one, cos there will always be extreme reactions, so there's not much to be done, but maybe doing separate videos for each platform might help. Fanboys are less likely to watch stuff about a platform they hate.

 

[AuroraMusisAmica]

It's really unfortunate, because in a gaming media system that's dominated by cynicism, negativity, and callousness, Digital Foundry is one of the few that actively takes joy in its subject work.

They really try to see their work in the best way possible, and always bolster their arguments with the necessary pretext, context, and understanding on how something is the way it is. Bad performance isn't framed by hyperbolic words and derision, but rather a problem that can be tackled and attempted to understand (and hopefully solve).

Weaker systems aren't derided and mocked, but understood within their frameworks and then properly placed within their benchmarks for future understanding. Their work on Switch games is so much fun and engaging because it's not "Well, it doesn't look or play as good as the other systems", but rather "The Switch architecture is rather unique, and because of those limitations here's what it means for this game. Impressive!"

Keep it up Digital Foundry. Keep pursuing knowledge and understanding based on positivity, competency, and progress.

 

[Deleted member 17207]

Social media was a mistake. I only ever seen things that reinforce that opinion, not change it.

Sigh.

 

[Cheapstare]

Why what did they say ?

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Timestamped, just rubbed me the wrong way. Plus Richard basically saying that content quality only picked up once John and Alex started doing their thing, and John constantly talking over him (and everyone else).

 

[Tigerfog]

DF videos are very informative and well put together.
Even as a PS5 owner, I love to what the differences are between the versions and appreciate how Microsoft handles graphics on their end.
The solution is as other people said: turn off the comments. People can be terrible on the internet.

 

[snausages]

I like DF, it's improved by tech literacy WRT how games look and run and what kind of load to expect with different sorts of settings on PC games.

It's sad that people get so bent out of shape over how their games perform relative to other platforms. You even see a lot of the same people who (justifiably) decry game crunch practices give out about a lack of optimisation on their preferred platform. It's horribly militant the way some people act about it.

If any of them are reading this thread tho I'd love to see some more DF retro when the next gen hype wave receeds a bit, or even some feature on weird ports that seem like they shouldn't exist. Rather than just PS5, Series X and RTX cards analysis.

 

[platocplx]

It's true, but they also spilling into the DMs with trash:

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The site that shall not be named crazies what the hell are wrong with people. Some days they are Sony biased other says they are Xbox biased in people heads they have been very objective lol. People really have no way to detect nuance and think everything is definitive it's so weird how many people think this way.

 

[Liabe Brave]

In North America we've already passed this point. Blue, Red, Good, Bad, My football team, your football team, my flag, your flag.

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People are tribal.
Sports, politics, their brand of choice.

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Do not dismiss holding political positions as mere sports team fannishness or tribalism. Politics is a very real shaping of who, or what behavior, gets punished or rewarded in our society. Treating it like an arbitrary choice with no ethical consequences is wrong, and reprehensible.

 

[Deleted member 8752]

DF, including Mr. Linneman provide best in class coverage of these games and hardware. Literally, other than (at times) My Life in Gaming, I don't know of a single channel that goes into the same level of depth, or is as objective in their coverage about video games in general.

It just goes to show you that in today's internet, any objective coverage of any nature is viewed with skepticism and scorn. Any critical analysis of anything is viewed as an affront in tribal warfare against someone's belief system to the point where people start hurling insults and abuse. It's true in something as serious as political coverage, but it can proliferate down to anything, even something as inconsequential as how video games perform on hardware (as if it's THAT important).

The internet sucks. And this type of abuse is all too normalized now.

 

[Vulcano's Assistant]

Lol seeing that avatar and recognizing it right away. Why am I not surprised that it is business as usual for that guy. Even Durante once called him the worst poster on the forum.

 

[chrisypoo]

Timestamped, just rubbed me the wrong way. Plus Richard basically saying that content quality only picked up once John and Alex started doing their thing, and John constantly talking over him (and everyone else).

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Wow that was hard to watch. Yeah, I agree. To be honest I never went to Digital Foundry for overly produced videos and commentaries on game design and history, I went for simple, analytical footage and a summarized dissertation on the footage; Tom is still the best for that type of analysis in my mind. John kind of comes off disrespectful to Tom, and I honestly can't stand it. Console warriors are definitely the worst though, they need to go outside more or something. Fighting over plastic and silicone toys is the height of pathetic.

 

[DuvalDevil]

Timestamped, just rubbed me the wrong way. Plus Richard basically saying that content quality only picked up once John and Alex started doing their thing, and John constantly talking over him (and everyone else).

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DF got better with John and Alex on board. That said, I really, really like what Tom's doing and hes on par with Rich, John and Alex. I'd like to see more from him actually. Feels like his output is not as much as from the other three and I think it's because he is doing some stuff for the regular eurogamer site.

 

[The Albatross]

I love everything Digital Foundry does. Comparison videos are just naturally going to attract console warriors, and the have to weigh whether the viewership/revenue is worth the toxicity they attract.

Comparison videos appeal to three audiences:

1) Technically minded enthusiasts who are interested in the fundamental hardware/software differences usually from a hobbyist perspective (less than 1% of viewers)
2) People who own both next gen consoles (or who plan to) and are looking to compare games and pick the best version (at this point, probably like 2% of viewers on a video)
3) People who have already made up their minds on which console they've bought/plan to buy, and are interested in validating their purchases (like 97%+ of viewers on a video)

My percentages are just fake, and there's crossover (for instance, a lot of people who are into the technical specifications of something also want validation on their consumer preferences). But, by and large, the vast majority of people who really get into the nitty gritty on, like, occasional dropped frames on a version of a game that they're never going to play are in the 3rd category.

"Wow, I hate the CoD games and would never play them, and I don't own an Xbox Series X and will never buy it, but here I am watching a video about how CoD drops frames in some scenes on an Xbox Series X and it's become the most important videogame topic for me today."

I fall into this category too. I will realistically never play that new COD game, and I'll never play it on Xbox Series X, but even I couldn't help jumping into the comparison thread and thinking like "oh wow, that sucks Xbox Series X CoD seems like the inferior version," or something (I don't really think I made this post because I don't usually care, but I probably had the thought in my brain). There's less difference between multiplatform games in this generation than any other. The differences are also usually super minor, like "The games are identical except for frames dropping here and here, and screen tearing here," like games that are basically the same game save for hiccups during periods of stress.

A tremendous amount of the views and revenue that Digital Foundry generates comes from that third bucket of viewers who want validation on their purchase. This'll just naturally generate a ton of trolling posts and a ton of defensive takes and a ton of personal validation. DF is happy to take the revenue from those views (they wouldn't make the comparison videos otherwise), and so unfortunately they also have to deal with the bull shit of people feeling attacked because their $500 piece of plastic plays CoD: Cold War nominally -- perhaps imperceptibly -- worse than the same game on another $500 piece of plastic. Where the line is crossed is on personal toxicity, and I don't know what can be done there other than blocking/reporting/banning people who are attacking people for doing their jobs.

 

[CurseVox]

Ugh then internet is so damn toxic. DF does a fantastic job and very obviously put a ton of work into their content. People need to chill the hell out.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

Digital Foundry threads on Era can be rough and embarrassing because of all the console war stuff. I can't imagine how bad it gets on Twitter and YouTube.

I hope the DF team keep doing their great work and ignore all comments sections and message boards. It's not worth the mental toll.

The face offs are interesting because they provide insight and information. How people try to abuse that information or retaliate against DF is just frustrating to anyone who enjoys the content they provide.

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The DF threads on era are largely fine.

The twitter discourse is just endless comments of:
"Hahaha Series L! Take the L Xbots your systems suck! Keep your mouths shut and go cry on Phil Spencer's shoulder!"

And "Lol 9TF with fake Ray tracing vs 25TF of accelerated Ray tracing capabilities! You ponies are in for a world of hurt! "

It's absolute garbage. And with how the multiplats have gone, DF is now being accused of major Sony bias.

Edit: and according to one of His DMs, it looks like he is also being accused of massive Xbox bias as well lol

John seems like a genuine guy. I couldn't imagine being submersed in that trash tier internet commentary.

I understand why he replies to certain comments that ask decent questions and raise fair points. Unfortunately you have to sift through dozens of fanboy nonsense to find a decent comment.

 

[spineduke]

I feel for the DF guys. This is based on some of the viritol I see on Era, can't imagine how bad it is elsewhere. I have a zero tolerance policy to the fanboys who attack them, they've been nothing but super cordial in their work, and their work comes from place a passion. It shows.

 

[Dizzy Ukulele]

To be honest, DF used to strike me as something that lived off of stoking the flames of console wars. This was back in the PS3/360 era but they've gone back and forth so many times that it's clearly not down to company bias.

 

[psionotic]

Just wanted to chip in to say that I really appreciate the DF breakdowns.

Also to add that the opinion expressed by some here, that 'DF is console-warring in video form' is an incredibly bad take, akin to saying that 'Consumer Reports is toaster-warring in magazine form.' Weak.

 

[spineduke]

To be honest, DF used to strike me as something that lived off of stoking the flames of console wars. This was back in the PS3/360 era but they've gone back and forth so many times that it's clearly not down to company bias.

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Nonsense - their scripts and discussions hugely avoid putting down any system, and they go the extra mile in avoiding any sort of confrontational language. I'd say they're practically babying peoples egos/feelings at this point, but nothing is enough when dealing with the fragility of a console warrior.

 

[Urishizu]

I would feel remiss if I didn't also chime in here to say what a fantastic job John, Rich & the gang do on their work. Their production and the overall quality of their content has grown leaps and bounds over the last few years and it's clear to me the amount of effort that goes into their work. Nothing is perfect, and people are going to have strong opinions no matter how you present content, but I have just endless respect and admiration for John, Rich and their teams. DF is really a fantastic asset to the gaming community and I wish them all the best.

 

[CarpetSalesman]

I think this is a good topic for discussion. I despair at social media and people's willingness to either spam comments, write bots (I assume) to instantly reply to brand accounts, or search for things to argue with. Even here on this forum people will screen grab the best / worst moment of a video comparison and choose that to share for a very "concerning" take on the relative performance of machines. What's more the goal posts move constantly. Machine A has a higher framerate but lower detail? Let's talk about detail! Machine A has higher detail but at one particular moment dropped some frames, That's the important part, the dropped frames.

I feel sorry for those guys who have something to share that is genuinely interesting to fans of games and tech but who close their accounts because people are threatening their families.

To be honest, I do think that Digital Foundry are probably part of the problem, and while the solution is "people should stop being idiots" I'm not really sure much of their audience are in it for any other reason than to validate their choice and to troll the other team. It feels like most of Digital Foundry's content isn't about tech, it's about declaring a winner. Very few people are honestly going to be interested if they own a single platform and that's where they're going to play a game. Some people will lie and say "I need to know how well it runs" and the truth is, reviews will tell you that. You don't need to zoom in 200% to know if a game is worth your time or not. In an ideal world, people would not even care about resolution, framerate or LOD - especially not when the differences are minute. The truth is, most of the time most people don't care because most people have one console and that's what they play games on. You can measure how little they care by the amount of time that has been spent discussing and comparing load times before this gen. Unless a game had an insane load time (I'm thinking of you, Solider of Fortune, Dreamcast) then it never got mentioned. This gen, because the usual specs war didn't work out as people might have hoped, we needed endless load time comparisons, while other people stuck to comparing the standard TeraFlops. And the differences that we're supposed to draw conclusions from? "Really, very impressive a full 3 seconds faster"

Wow!

 

[ss_lemonade]

It's true, but they also spilling into the DMs with trash:

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thelastword is still going after John and DF??

 

[Alexandros]

The DF threads on era are largely fine.

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Are they though? Is the quality of discussion in those threads at a good level?

 

[Rosebud]

Maybe DF could have their own OT with every video?

 

[shadowsdarknes]

Are they though? Is the quality of discussion in those threads at a good level?

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Someone said John was Sony's guy and was swiftly banned here. Even when the poster tried to walk it back.

Youtube and Twitter by comparison is just a bunch of swearing, direct insults, and even altering screengrabs of DFs comparisons.
This board obviously holds itself to a higher standard, though.

 

[Kemal86]

Just want to say to all of the DF crew, if you see this: Your work is has value, you do it incredibly well, and I hope it continues. Thank you for all that you do.

 

[lazerface66]

Honestly, everybody at DF are class acts. They have, probably, some of the best gaming related content out there, especially regarding technology. Fuck console wars.

 

[Huey]

Totally agree, DF is an incredible team and they deserve loud voices of support to drown out the stupidity.

Dark1x keep up the awesome work. Hopefully you return to Era soon.

Dictator, please keep up the awesome work too and please stick around - prominent member!

 

[snausages]

There is something seriously up with that one guy with the crucifix avatar. Some severe arrested development if it isn't actually a 12 year old behind it

 

[Canas Renvall]

Well said. Turn off the comments as nothing good comes from them.

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The YT algorithm gives more exposure to comment-enabled videos, so actually, part of their revenue stream depends on it.

Yes, as you may have realized, that is quite fucked up.

 

[LiK]

Fanboys just going insane if something they love didn't "win". DF is just letting people know which version is better. I've been following them for over 8 years and they've helped me so much.

 

[cakely]

It's true, but they also spilling into the DMs with trash:

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John's obviously a smart guy but the correct response is: Block, don't engage.

Reposting a DM just gives those morons a bigger audience.