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We need to have a serious talk about the way the black electorate is discussed on here.
- Thread starter Brawly Likes to Brawl
- Start date
I have sympathy for Black communities whose views on politics come from hard-fought, incremental wins that were never commensurate with the risks taken to achieve them. I am not surprised that older Black communities vote more conservative on account of ingrained attitudes about leftier movements in past decades, the violent dismantling of leftist groups originating in Black communities, and a general cynicism about the political process. I've seen many older Black people, some of whom were at least close to these more rebellious movements at the time, express this sort of conservative viewpoint about progress; it was a common attitude in the Ta-Nehisi Coates commentary section -- one that I credit a lot with shaping my views on anti-racism, anti-sexism, and leftward policy in general.
I don't believe the problem lies inherently with the Black community. I think it's a larger consequence of expecting progress through electoralism, which is a process by which we get to choose the solutions that someone else believes is acceptable. There's a lot to expand on this, but while older Black communities obviously have experience with the sorts of direct action that led to the passage of protections like the Civil Rights Act that I think we as a culture need to engage with more often (say what you will about Daily Kos in general, this article is important), I don't feel comfortable with tasking them with holding the front lines of the culture war. The kinds of issues causing Black people to seek protection in electoralism can't be separated from the fact that white people do not show up in the streets for Black causes.
I think we do ourselves a disservice to take the conservatism in Black communities for granted (younger Black people do not share it!!), especially when many of the most important Black voices in the US have been socialists (Stokely Carmichael, Malcom X, DuBois, and of course MLK was pushing social democracy openly in the period before his assassination). I would be remiss not to at least point you to what Bree Newsome is saying right now about electoralism, direct action, etc. (read the whole thread). Link if the embed has issues: https://twitter.com/BreeNewsome/status/1235303232492228612
At the risk of being one of those guys who posts allusions to pop-lit franchises from my impressionable years, I will say. Sometimes you have to reject the false dichotomy, and kick both drinks from the giant's hands.
I'll expressly post this entry in the thread because Twitter's current threading buried it when I was looking at the conversation, and because it's my biggest criticism of Biden, that he is expressly against some of the specific issues that Dem voters are claiming are important when asked in polls like public health care, weed legalization, etc. that have me concerned of his long-term ability to engage the left of the country:
I don't believe the problem lies inherently with the Black community. I think it's a larger consequence of expecting progress through electoralism, which is a process by which we get to choose the solutions that someone else believes is acceptable. There's a lot to expand on this, but while older Black communities obviously have experience with the sorts of direct action that led to the passage of protections like the Civil Rights Act that I think we as a culture need to engage with more often (say what you will about Daily Kos in general, this article is important), I don't feel comfortable with tasking them with holding the front lines of the culture war. The kinds of issues causing Black people to seek protection in electoralism can't be separated from the fact that white people do not show up in the streets for Black causes.
I think we do ourselves a disservice to take the conservatism in Black communities for granted (younger Black people do not share it!!), especially when many of the most important Black voices in the US have been socialists (Stokely Carmichael, Malcom X, DuBois, and of course MLK was pushing social democracy openly in the period before his assassination). I would be remiss not to at least point you to what Bree Newsome is saying right now about electoralism, direct action, etc. (read the whole thread). Link if the embed has issues: https://twitter.com/BreeNewsome/status/1235303232492228612
At the risk of being one of those guys who posts allusions to pop-lit franchises from my impressionable years, I will say. Sometimes you have to reject the false dichotomy, and kick both drinks from the giant's hands.
I'll expressly post this entry in the thread because Twitter's current threading buried it when I was looking at the conversation, and because it's my biggest criticism of Biden, that he is expressly against some of the specific issues that Dem voters are claiming are important when asked in polls like public health care, weed legalization, etc. that have me concerned of his long-term ability to engage the left of the country:
Most black people like most other people of any race, are indeed low information voters. Black, white, brown or whatever, are all lacking knowledge and critical thinking. It's an not an issue of race, it's a human problem. It's the same reason why Corbyn lost.
It's wrong to single out any group over Sanders' loss.
Great post there, very well written and enlightening. I have a sincere question here: What could Sanders have done differently to improve on the Black vote anyways? From my perhaps insulated perspective he seemed to learn from his mistakes on the matter in 2016.
Not quite the same, but you can bookmark posts for easy reference.
Thanks OP.
it's pretty telling that if you don't support a certain candidate you're blamed for voting against your own interests and that you do lack empathy but only if you're black you're also "low informed". I for one am glad that those guys were banned accordingly.
it's pretty telling that if you don't support a certain candidate you're blamed for voting against your own interests and that you do lack empathy but only if you're black you're also "low informed". I for one am glad that those guys were banned accordingly.
People have known forever that the white moderates do not care about Black communities. That supporting these white moderates is not a matter of strict ideological alignment, but about making do with a series of bad choices in a system whose only connection is fetishism every 4 years or so. Voting for Biden is for many not a positive referendum on anything that Biden stands for, so much as a way to get the hippie-punching moderates to shut up about "BUT DON'T YOU CARE ABOUT GETTING TRUMP OUT OFFICE?" especially when even Sanders has had issues connecting with rural Black communities.
It strikes me as yet another time MLK's letter from a Birmingham jail is all that needs to be said.
This is, frustratingly, the Biden campaign. He says almost as much in terms of how he engages with the youth vote, let alone concrete discussions of the most important policy debates of our day! But when fearful white moderates will blame the rise of Trump on everything from spironolactone to vegan cheese, getting them shut up and pacified at least means they can't so easily hide behind this notion of "of course you're going to risk more of Trump, you privileged ass" on people who have more to lose when those moderates are being criticized from the left.
It strikes me as yet another time MLK's letter from a Birmingham jail is all that needs to be said.
This is, frustratingly, the Biden campaign. He says almost as much in terms of how he engages with the youth vote, let alone concrete discussions of the most important policy debates of our day! But when fearful white moderates will blame the rise of Trump on everything from spironolactone to vegan cheese, getting them shut up and pacified at least means they can't so easily hide behind this notion of "of course you're going to risk more of Trump, you privileged ass" on people who have more to lose when those moderates are being criticized from the left.
Thanks for creating this thread. The primary thread was really frustrating once the results from the South started coming in.
Sanders was in trouble as soon as Biden stepped in. I said at the start of the primary that it was interesting that the older Black vote would be equally up for grabs between the candidates. Once Joe got in it was a wrap.
If only Bernie was obama vp what was he thinking. joke I made before but it's still true
Also when do we get to vote for better? Since I've been old enough to vote its always been about just not voting for the republican. We had a chance for better in 2016 and we foundered and we are doing it again. That's what I'm tired of.
Somehow I posted this in the wrong thread but here.
It's funny because I'm pretty sure he's not just talking about economically moderate.
To add to your third point OP, I think older black voters have seen how overly ambitious promises can lead to no changes that benefit them (or no changes at a ll), and that turns them off from voting for someone like Sanders. He hasn't effectively made the case that his proposals were achievable, and a President that gets nothing done isn't worth voting for. I would expand that to say that Sanders history (or lack their of) when it comes to Legislative Accomplishments, likely really concerns them. Biden has gotten a lot more done legislatively than Bernie has, this is just a fact. Even if it wasn't all beneficial (I don't think anyone loves the entirety of the 94 Crime Bill for example), Biden has a history of reaching out to the black community when writing bills, and then getting them passed, which greatly appeals to these voters.
How can someone explain that the electorate got it wrong without generalizing and talking down to marginalized groups?
I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not, but I think Biden's record on segregation speaks for itself in that respect.
that's just a unfortunate myth do to him mostly working behind the scenes and not putting his name on bills.
Focus on the overall electorate without disparaging a specific candidates supporters or a specific group. For this election , it's worth reiterating that Bernie ran a campaign predicated on explosive youth turnout and first time voters. Those didn't show up--well first time voters split between him and Biden, but the youth vote was abysmal as expected. If there's a group to be critical of it's young people across the board. Additionally, you criticize Sanders and his campaign for not properly selling his platform to people. Criticizing a historically disenfranchised and victimized block of voters is absolutely the wrong way to go.
"Getting stuff done," from anti-integration measures to the crime bill to Anita Hill.
I just genuinely don't understand.
The only legislative accomplishments he really has to brag about after 30 years in Congress are the Veteran's Bill, the ACA Amendment him and Jim Clyburn passed to expand funding to community health centers, and the Yemen War Powers Resolution (which was vetoed). I don't think people care about Amendments (even the ACA one which is great) because they aren't structural change. Sanders was running on a platform of major structural change, and he has passed 0 bills that show he can even begin to get that done. Biden by comparison has a dozen major legislative accomplishments with his name on it, as well as being able to run on helping to get the ACA passed--which as he famously said, "is a big fucking deal".
It may not make sense to you, but that doesn't mean these voters opinions don't matter, or that they're the problem--it means we have to work hard to earn their trust and support, something Sanders just hasn't managed to do. I would imagine if I was a victim of systemic racism, I would have a very different view when it came to voting for Presidential candidates as well. Biden may not have made monumental changes that benefit the lives of POC, but he was picked by Obama to be his point man in the Senate during the Obama years, and has racked up endorsements from CBC members that vouch for his ability to get things done.
I'm not sure what this take is based on. Republicans can be reactionary so riling them up with a socialist boogey man or woman might get us a worse backlash than anything Biden could inspire. And midterms are almost always a reaction to the general and go against the party in the White House. Why would a more controversial politician lead to less of that?
If I recall correctly this was an issue of conflating variables in 2016. Bernie did very poorly with the black vote but that's because young black voters turn out to vote less, and old black voters turn out to vote more, than their respective age brackets of the overall populace.
When isolated to the black vote under 30 Bernie did marginally better than Clinton, though less so than other racial demos in the same age bracket.
I don't imagine the story will be much different 4 years later.
When isolated to the black vote under 30 Bernie did marginally better than Clinton, though less so than other racial demos in the same age bracket.
I don't imagine the story will be much different 4 years later.
Frankly, I dunno why members here are jumping to blame black people for Biden winning, when the reason Bernie tanked is that the kids didn't actually come out and vote.
(Sorry, that was a lie. I know exactly why members here are jumping to blame black people. We all do.)
(Sorry, that was a lie. I know exactly why members here are jumping to blame black people. We all do.)
Beyond having to destroy the white supremacist legacy and present reality of The United States in both government and society, and making sure every demographic actually gets the same opportunity to vote by eliminating voter suppression and redistricting?
I am not sure even that is far enough, I also think as long as we have a two party, first past the post, electoral college system there will always be the feeling of voting for the lesser evil and minimizing the damage to vulnerable community's.
Of course I also think we should a real clean elections law that was mandatory and not opt in. In other words every candidate is entitled to public funds but that's all they get and they cannot fundraise or use personal funds, can't accept the donations, that taxpayer funded allotment would be it. It would allow a bigger variety of people to run, and cut down on people that run for other reasons. Their was a proposed law (May even have got in cannot remember) but it was toothless since it was opt in and no one with money would opt in and no one taking that fund could compete with those not opted in, so it would have to be mandatory.
In the states though, I think with basically the system we have but with the changes from philosophy to election laws I think their could be not only a much higher chance of candidates you like who want to do good things and inspire, and they would also have a higher chance of winning.
But I would also have to be on hard drugs to think any of that will happen, at least now in the current state of the country.
It would take votes from those with power and we know that isn't black people as individuals or a monolith so it's kind of at best shitty and diet racism and we all know what at the worst to try and lay the type of blame this thread was created to talk about.
What you fail to understand is that Biden's wins are less about good his record is, but how comparatively abysmal the choices are. ABYSMAL. Progressives in the US have failed the black community even when they've been able to make inroads locally.
Black people's electoral choices have been consistently; who's the least bigoted? And white progressives have the luxury of purity testing because they have several safety nets in place due to white supremacy that black folks don't have.
Look at Bloomberg's successful runs in a NYC with a heavy black population. Even with stop and frisk, he was the least racist compared to the GOP option. Think about how absurd that is
I can't say I understand this. Bloomberg was the GOP option in NYC when he was mayor...
It's crazy. PoC (and to a lesser extent, women) have been the only reasons Dems have been winning anything, at least in recent years. I remember seeing those maps after the 2016 election and it was really eye-opening:
Goddamn, been a while since I've seen this. I remember being shocked at that white women stat. I figured there'd be a little more solidarity with Hillary there.
Was Bloomberg not a Republican then?
In any case, I've held my nose and voted for Robert Byrd for Senate in the past. You know, ex-KKK Robert Byrd, the guy who uttered the phrase "white n***ers" on cable TV as recently as the 21st century. And I justified it then in a number of ways that I could still do so now: still better than the other guy, at least staunchly anti-war, a dependable vote on justices and cabinet appointments, and a strong believer in legislative checks against the executive.
I'm more than used to sucking it up and picking the "least bad" option. But I'm just so tired of it. I've been doing it every 2 years without fail since the onset of the Iraq War. And I would like to hope that the nation at large could aspire to greater things than that.
Good post but I'd say that this plays into a dangerous narrative that was challenged in a piece I posted earlier today.
The Deification of the Older Black Voter
Since 2007, Jezebel has been the Internet's most treasured source for everything celebrities, sex, and politics...with teeth.
theslot.jezebel.com
I don't think a lot of black voters went into the voting booth thinking about the possibilities of Bernie's legislative prowess and Senate gains. Only people extremely zoned into politics did that. A lot of American voters are fallible & that includes black voters. Not giving people that sort of agency in their decisions beyond always being cast as the all knowing orbs of the voting populace doesn't allow for black folks to ever have self-criticism debates and introspection within the community.
As a black queer man, I've come into having complex thoughts about the community and how it operates around social changes. Anyone who's black and LGBT can concur that change is hard in this community and old black people do not have all of the answers. Bernie didnt do a good job at all of extending olive branches but completely separate of this election, black voters can make voting decisions that go against their own interests just like any other minority group.
Seriously, Dems in general have to stop fetishizing the black vote, but then that same fetishism is directly tied to their general surface-level support of issues of racial justice. The "listen to black people as long as it's not inconvenient" schtick.
To be fair to the OP, this thread isn't about saying that any demographic is "infallible." It's about explaining a certain mindset to outsiders.
good post and good article. I hear you as another black queer personGood post but I'd say that this plays into a dangerous narrative that was challenged in a piece I posted earlier today.
The Deification of the Older Black Voter
Since 2007, Jezebel has been the Internet's most treasured source for everything celebrities, sex, and politics...with teeth.
I don't think a lot of black voters went into the voting booth thinking about the possibilities of Bernie's legislative prowess and Senate gains. Only people extremely zoned into politics did that. A lot of American voters are fallible & that includes black voters. Not giving people that sort of agency in their decisions beyond always being cast as the all knowing orbs of the voting populace doesn't allow for black folks to ever have self-criticism debates and introspection within the community.
As a black queer man, I've come into having complex thoughts about the community and how it operates around social changes. Anyone who's black and LGBT can concur that change is hard in this community and old black people do not have all of the answers. Bernie didnt do a good job at all of extending olive branches but completely separate of this election, black voters can make voting decisions that go against their own interests just like any other minority group.
The white Biden supporters have been fetishizing the black vote for the entire last week and it leads us back right to square one where people are taking votes for granted because they'll just fall in line.
We need to be upfront and call out the fact that the Democratic primary hasnt had real black outreach from its winning candidate ever. Even Obama aides will tell you that they went through the primary and general being race neutral because the candidate being black and a viable candidate for President was enough to get black voters on board.
Our next two nominees after Obama were Obama's SoS and VP, two people who rode in to the primaries with large amounts of black cred from being associated with name recognition. Biden's PoC outreach was pathetic! He literally told an immigration activist to vote for Trump! But having cred is enough.
Like I said in PoliERA, we'll have to wait for a cycle without extremely well known candidates in order to see what actual, effective black outreach is because Biden begging for black voters to save his campaign on the night of New Hampshire and Hillary doing prayer sessions with Mary J Blige weren't it.
I feel like one of the issues is white voters talking at black voters instead of to them. It was worse when the black vote went even more overwhelmingly to Hillary in 2016. I remember a lot of Bernie fans having a reaction like "Don't black people know what's good for them" as if black people weren't capable of making their own decisions. There was no effort to understand or care about what the black electorate wanted.
Bernie himself has put in a great effort the last four years, but it still clearly hasn't been enough to make serious inroads. His campaign is pretty diverse and he's included a number of policies to help people of color into his platform, but the onus is solely on him to figure out what that missing link is.
Bernie himself has put in a great effort the last four years, but it still clearly hasn't been enough to make serious inroads. His campaign is pretty diverse and he's included a number of policies to help people of color into his platform, but the onus is solely on him to figure out what that missing link is.
This is a very real problem. They tend to talk at while also not listening to. One of the reasons I liked Warren so much, was that almost all the activists who she worked with sang her praises for being willing to listen to and take input from them better than any candidate they had met with. She brought in people from these activists groups to help her write plans to make sure that their concerns were being addressed, rather than having her team write it under the assumption they knew what was best.
Yep.
My two toss-up candidates have been both Warren and Sanders for obvious reasons, but I've got a long memory, and I'm not going to forget how much of a chip on the shoulder Bernie fans had towards black folks in 2016, and in some respects still do.
That "get in line" mentality just never changes.
It's crazy. PoC (and to a lesser extent, women) have been the only reasons Dems have been winning anything, at least in recent years. I remember seeing those maps after the 2016 election and it was really eye-opening:
Those are some fucking depressing maps, but makes me feel good about being from Washington state.
Yeah, this is a good point. Older black voters tending to be more conservative is not necessarily a good thing, especially for younger black voters, queer black voters, etc. Black voters are not a monolith and this election shows that as much as anything.Good post but I'd say that this plays into a dangerous narrative that was challenged in a piece I posted earlier today.
The Deification of the Older Black Voter
Since 2007, Jezebel has been the Internet's most treasured source for everything celebrities, sex, and politics...with teeth.
I don't think a lot of black voters went into the voting booth thinking about the possibilities of Bernie's legislative prowess and Senate gains. Only people extremely zoned into politics did that. A lot of American voters are fallible & that includes black voters. Not giving people that sort of agency in their decisions beyond always being cast as the all knowing orbs of the voting populace doesn't allow for black folks to ever have self-criticism debates and introspection within the community.
As a black queer man, I've come into having complex thoughts about the community and how it operates around social changes. Anyone who's black and LGBT can concur that change is hard in this community and old black people do not have all of the answers. Bernie didnt do a good job at all of extending olive branches but completely separate of this election, black voters can make voting decisions that go against their own interests just like any other minority group.
Still think a lot of it is pure pragmatism though. The OP's point about voting being an exercize in harm reduction is spot on. Black folks can't afford another 4 years of Trump, so many people decide to support the candidate who they view having the best chance of defeating him in the election.
Calling them 'low-information' voters is a blatant dog whistle and should not be acceptable here.
One of my close friends from high schiol has a difficult relationship with his parents because he is trans. His parents (one a Nigerian immigrant, one a black woman from the midwest) are conservative. They vote Dem though, despite being transphobic (motivated in large part by religion). This stuff is extremely complicated.
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I said similarly in the political thread. Black Voters have always been strategic voters. That's all it is. And who can blame them? White people can vote with their heart and not feel the repercussions nearly to the same extent. Not a black luxury.
I'm a white Bernie supporter.
Last night sucked not only because things didn't go the way I wanted them to, but because I spent much of my time online telling people, no, just because people do not vote for Bernie does not mean they're "cowards", "traitors", or "low information voters". It's fine to disagree with people who didn't support your candidate, but at least show some respect for them.
Last night sucked not only because things didn't go the way I wanted them to, but because I spent much of my time online telling people, no, just because people do not vote for Bernie does not mean they're "cowards", "traitors", or "low information voters". It's fine to disagree with people who didn't support your candidate, but at least show some respect for them.
I don't know about this one. It's very common for people to talk about the uninformed masses when they disagree with how they voted. I don't think we can be exempt from this labeling without reflecting on how we label others. Not we as in black people specifically but as in people who are convinced we know better. I'm guilty of calling Trump voters low information or stupid or racist when the reality is they could have a valid reason for their choice that doesn't align with my world view.
I truly wish we could have a world where everyone could vote for what they want without having to worry about what you might lose.
I truly wish we could have a world where everyone could vote for what they want without having to worry about what you might lose.
I'm a 49 y/o black woman. Thank you OP for writing this. Our vote is next week in Washington state, but however I vote, it will not be due to "low information."
As to point 3, this map helps explain why my trust level is at it's lowest. Seeing this in 2016, then the election, ummm, it actually pisses me off that we have to explain anything.
As to point 3, this map helps explain why my trust level is at it's lowest. Seeing this in 2016, then the election, ummm, it actually pisses me off that we have to explain anything.
It's crazy. PoC (and to a lesser extent, women) have been the only reasons Dems have been winning anything, at least in recent years. I remember seeing those maps after the 2016 election and it was really eye-opening:
As a black millennium, I really want change. I understand Trump must go and most older Blacks in the south needs someone who can win against Trump...but what else after he is gone?
I'm tired of voting in politician just to keep the "status quo". I'm tired of listening to my older parents talk about "MLK fought for our rights", and then vote for the same politician that won't make changes once he is in or barely crumbs fall on the floor coming our way just because we're afraid of worse from the republican party.
MLK fought for our rights because he was tired of the "status quo" and it was hell, but changes was made, but the fight isn't over. We need another MLK revolution, one to end all racial issues dealing with us black folks. Problem is that we're content with 2008 when we should be looking forward in the future!
I'm tired of voting in politician just to keep the "status quo". I'm tired of listening to my older parents talk about "MLK fought for our rights", and then vote for the same politician that won't make changes once he is in or barely crumbs fall on the floor coming our way just because we're afraid of worse from the republican party.
MLK fought for our rights because he was tired of the "status quo" and it was hell, but changes was made, but the fight isn't over. We need another MLK revolution, one to end all racial issues dealing with us black folks. Problem is that we're content with 2008 when we should be looking forward in the future!
I'll still vote for Warren when the Georgia primary comes but I understand. I'll vote for her because I can't get over multiple things with Bernie. I have half a mind of writing in Kamala just to let my true feelings known.
now that Bloomberg is out, I have no problems with voting for the final 3. I prefer Warren but she has no chance.
now that Bloomberg is out, I have no problems with voting for the final 3. I prefer Warren but she has no chance.
His switching to Dem even has me confused. LOL.
I stand corrected, that said my point still standa. Black voters tend to vote for the least painful option
Bernie has a chance to rile up a base like Trump did.
Biden represents the status quo which does not bode well for voter turn out.
Even Trump was more scared of Bernie than any other candidate. Trump will win again.
Biden represents the status quo which does not bode well for voter turn out.
Even Trump was more scared of Bernie than any other candidate. Trump will win again.