"We don't trade lives"

zoggy · Mar 31, 2019

You guys have discussed all of infinity war but not this point.

Was cap right and or justified in his principle belief? Vision even called out his hypocrisy because of how cap sacrificed himself to bury the tesseract. Hell the grenade scene in the first avenger also makes him a hypocrite.

Is killing one innocent person ok if it saves 2? 100? 1000? How about half all in the universe?

Killing vision didn't save anything because thanos just cheat codes out of it anyways. But what if he couldn't?

Stouffers · Mar 31, 2019

zoggy said:
You guys have discussed all of infinity war but not this point.

Was cap right and or justified in his principle belief? Vision even called out his hypocrisy because of how cap sacrificed himself to bury the tesseract. Hell the grenade scene in the first avenger also makes him a hypocrite.

Is killing one innocent person ok if it saves 2? 100? 1000? How about half all in the universe?

Killing vision didn't save anything because thanos just cheat codes out of it anyways. But what if he couldn't?

But Cpt didn't bring his self-sacrifices up for discussion for the group to decide, he just did it. Vision should have found a way to destroy it himself if he was serious.

Feep · Mar 31, 2019

It's a philosophy born out of his extreme idealism. It's wrong, but it's a core part of who he is as a person.

If someone is willing to lay down their life to protect others, and there's no other viable option, you allow them their choices.

Alvis · Mar 31, 2019

He's not an hypocrite, he's simply willing to take his own life to save other people, but not willing to take someone else's life. He cares mother about others than about himself, that's all.

Lunar Wolf · Mar 31, 2019

It's extreme idealism.

Kind of a dumb belief realistically.

He's Ned Stark. Luckily, the MCU isn't Game of Thrones or he'd have been chewed out and killed within his first movie.

CrazyAndy · Mar 31, 2019

Is killing one innocent person ok if it saves 2? 100? 1000? How about half all in the universe?

Sure. If you think rationally. But people are way too emotional.

Seesaw15 · Mar 31, 2019

I don't know. I'd feel pretty bad about killing a 3 year old.

shaneo632 · Mar 31, 2019

Cap is blatantly gonna trade his life at the end of Endgame isn't he?

Kewlmyc · Mar 31, 2019

No, it's extremely dumb. You don't trade lives, but you allow an entire army to fight and get killed just to save one person willing to sacrifice themselves. It's very stupid.

VectorPrime · Mar 31, 2019

Cap isn't a fan of the Trolley Problem.

jontin · Mar 31, 2019

This was equally as aggravating to me as Starlord screwing everything up.

Deleted member 4034 · Mar 31, 2019

First Avenger Cap wasn't very smart and those traits are still there. But yeah basically it's okay when he does it, but he won't let others do it if he can see another way.

I just wish they made a better argument.

jontin said:
This was equally as aggravating to me as Starlord screwing everything up.

Statlord is in a league of his own.

zoggy · Mar 31, 2019

Xharos said:
He's not an hypocrite, he's simply willing to take his own life to save other people, but not willing to take someone else's life. He cares mother about others than about himself, that's all.

Vision was willing to die as well...

SugarNoodles · Mar 31, 2019

It's just storybook idealism. Kind of like in Harry Potter the good guys refuse to arrest known deatheaters and use truth serum on them.

Border · Mar 31, 2019

Captain America -- only slightly more dumb and naive than Ned Stark.

His refusal to let Vision willingly sacrifice himself doomed half the beings in the known universe.

WaffleTaco · Mar 31, 2019

It's why "Whatever it takes," is the theme for Endgame. Thanos was willing to do this, but the Avengers weren't.

BossAttack · Mar 31, 2019

Cap is an idiot. This has been known. He played with too many lead toys as a kid.

thetrin · Mar 31, 2019

The portrayal is pitch perfect, and exactly how Cap should be portrayed. You may not agree with his philosophy, but that's true to the character.

It’s Time To Go · Mar 31, 2019

"Because the strong man who has known power all his life, may lose respect for that power, but a weak man knows the value of strength, and knows... compassion."

Bronx-Man · Mar 31, 2019

Keeps up with the main thing in Civil War of Cap's stubbornness causing more problems than it solves. Should've just said their last goodbyes to Vision and destroyed the stone.

Soapbox Killer · Mar 31, 2019

Cap is better than us just accept it.

Sibersk Esto · Mar 31, 2019

This entire argument becomes pretty much mute anyway since Thanos reversed time once he got the time stone anyway, which he probably would've done even if they killed him earlier

Nepenthe · Mar 31, 2019

Cap is the only American officer trying to actually keep other folks alive and y'all like "Okay but...."

TheJollyCorner · Mar 31, 2019

Wanda being 'in love' with a robot man basically fucked over half the universe.
Should have given him a kiss, shared one last "I love you (Maybe Tony can make me a new one?)", and blasted the stone right then and there when they were all standing around talking about it.

...BUT THEN WE DONT HAVE A MOVIE, etc. etc. etc., so it's all good! :D

Deleted member 7051 · Mar 31, 2019

I think the difference is, as the movie says, Vision isn't the one who pays that price. Cap was willing to die to save countless lives because there was no other choice and it was a price only he could pay, but Vision is in a different situation entirely. Not only is it likely there was a way to destroy the Mind Gem without killing him, he couldn't destroy the Mind Gem himself. Wanda had to pay that price and she didn't want to.

Aureon · Mar 31, 2019

The reason the emotional reaction to killing innocents is that, in the real world, you generally operate on uncertain information.

And, more generally, when you "need" to kill an innocent to "save" <number> others, it's someone making a threat. (That may also be imagined, see human sacrifices)
And, in that angle, generally giving up the said someone is negotiating with terrorists - that's what trading lives means.

Therefore, someone willing to trade lives is short-sighted - Killing one to save a hundred, and to perpetuate a framework in which that needs to happen.

Not killing innocents is an extremely well-ingrained ethical valued for very good reason, and Cap is rightly stubborn on it. If it was such a good idea, Vision would've suicided efficiently.

Stunner911 · Mar 31, 2019

Had no problem sacrificing the wakadian army

Deleted member 12790 · Mar 31, 2019

Isn't it a little ironic that a group called the Avengers wouldn't, "trade lives"? Isn't that what avenging something is?

Deleted member 7051 · Mar 31, 2019

TheJollyCorner said:
Wanda being 'in love' with a robot man basically fucked over half the universe.
Should have given him a kiss, shared one last "I love you (Maybe Tony can make me a new one?)", and blasted the stone right then and there when they were all standing around talking about it.

...BUT THEN WE DONT HAVE A MOVIE, etc. etc. etc., so it's all good! :D

Quill being in love with Gamora basically fucked over half the universe.
Gamora's love for Nebula fucked over half the universe.
Stark's plan of taking the Time Gem to Thanos and using it to defeat him not only backfired horribly but fucked over half the universe.
Strange refusing to just destroy the Time Gem fucked over half the universe.
Loki saving the Space Gem from Ragnarok fucked over half the universe.

The list is quite extensive if you want to blame fictional characters for how the plot plays out in a movie.

Deleted member 45211 · Mar 31, 2019

Comic books, in my opinion at their best, get us to ask important questions about life and about humanity.

The question of "trading lives" obviously centers on a society's view of morality -- do you believe that actions are morally good/bad based in and of themselves (deontology) or do you believe that actions are only good/bad based on their results (consequentialism and ultimately utilitarianism).

Now you can read tons of philosophical works on this. But for our daily use, you can watch this fantastic series of lectures from Yale University for free. The ones that address Captain America's decision are videos 12, 13, and 14. I recommend the whole playlist though:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K60AdYPVNWk&list=PL3F6BC200B2930084&index=12

Number 14 focuses on The Trolley Problem, which I'm sure many of you know and which is all about "trading lives."

The cool thing about this course and these lectures is that they introduce the philosophy but they also use some empirical data to gain insight into what our culture's moral code really is, and where it might come from. Videos 17 and 18, if I recall correctly, are great for this.

TheJollyCorner · Mar 31, 2019

Winny（๑•̀ㅂ•́）و said:
Quill being in love with Gamora basically fucked over half the universe.
Gamora's love for Nebula fucked over half the universe.
Stark's plan of taking the Time Gem to Thanos and using it to defeat him not only backfired horribly but fucked over half the universe.
Strange refusing to just destroy the Time Gem fucked over half the universe.
Loki saving the Space Gem from Ragnarok fucked over half the universe.

The list is quite extensive if you want to blame fictional characters for how the plot plays out in a movie.

Right, but we are talking about this specific "we don't trade lives" scene, mate... yeah?

Hollywood Duo · Mar 31, 2019

It's especially dumb because Vision isn't even Human and the character bores me to tears. No one gives a shit if Vision dies.

RiOrius · Mar 31, 2019

Krejlooc said:
Isn't it a little ironic that a group called the Avengers wouldn't, "trade lives"? Isn't that what avenging something is?

Well yes, but actually no.

Avenging is taking a life after someone has died. So it's a life trade in that sense. But what Cap was talking about was sacrificing someone to save lives. Which, ironically, is a far more moral thing to do than avenging lost lives.

But Cap doesn't care about what's moral, he cares about what's idealistic. Also the name Avengers was just chosen to sound cool: it's not actually a good job descriptor.

UnderSiege · Mar 31, 2019

Stunner911 said:
Had no problem sacrificing the wakadian army

T'Challa made that call.

Deleted member 12790 · Mar 31, 2019

RiOrius said:
Well yes, but actually no.

Avenging is taking a life after someone has died. So it's a life trade in that sense. But what Cap was talking about was sacrificing someone to save lives. Which, ironically, is a far more moral thing to do than avenging lost lives.

But Cap doesn't care about what's moral, he cares about what's idealistic. Also the name Avengers was just chosen to sound cool: it's not actually a good job descriptor.

seems a pretty apt descriptor for right now in the MCU.

Hirok2099 · Mar 31, 2019

thetrin said:
The portrayal is pitch perfect, and exactly how Cap should be portrayed. You may not agree with his philosophy, but that's true to the character.

Cap's portrayal was great and it makes sense. The part that bothered me a bit is no one challenging his position.

Khanimus · Mar 31, 2019

Hollywood Duo said:
It's especially dumb because Vision isn't even Human and the character bores me to tears. No one gives a shit if Vision dies.

Rocket isn't human either. Human =/= worth. We've had the "ARE ANDROIDS PEOPLE?!" argument in fiction for decades, and it has always boiled down to the same revelation. He emotes, he thinks, he feels compassion, he jokes, he acts of his own accord. He's a person.

jph139 · Mar 31, 2019

The lesson of Infinity War is pretty much "sometimes you can't solve a problem without making sacrifices." Cap is too idealistic and his idealism is one of the things that kills trillions of people.

Endgame is absolutely going to continue that theme - world's not so simple, boyscout. Only question is who makes that sacrifice.

Deleted member 3897 · Mar 31, 2019

BossAttack said:
Cap is an idoit.

I need some evidence of his idiocracy then.

jontin · Mar 31, 2019

Nepenthe said:
Cap is the only American officer trying to actually keep other folks alive and y'all like "Okay but...."

That's a pretty shitty thing to say.

I was in the military, most officers are good, if a little annoying in general.

Sibersk Esto · Mar 31, 2019

Again

Why are some people acting like Cap's decision had any bearing on how things played out. Once Thanos got the time stone it literally wouldn't matter when they killed him.

Deepwater · Mar 31, 2019

Even if they had destroyed the mind stone, Thanos and crew was still coming to earth (because how were they gonna know it was destroyed). A fight still would have ensued.

L4DANathan · Mar 31, 2019

VectorPrime said:
Cap isn't a fan of the Trolley Problem.

But what if Cap was REALLY fat? And on a bridge?

Nepenthe · Mar 31, 2019

jontin said:
That's a pretty shitty thing to say.

I was in the military, most officers are good, if a little annoying in general.

The American military complex is a monumental meat grinder for those it enlists and those it targets, one that continues to get away with the atrocities it does under the guise of conservative paranoia, nationalism, and xenophobia. American police have been made up of white supremacists since the occupation's inception and leave little in the way of proper checks of power and judicial oversight, meaning they are effectively free to kill as many of my folks as they see fit with applause from a lot of this country's citizenry.

The system is absolute trash from top to bottom regardless of the moral values of any individual person caught up in it. And I say this with my mother and both dads having been in the military.

The reason Cap is so inspiring to me, the reason why he's my favorite Avenger, the reason I consider him my Superman, is because he is an extreme exception to the rule of reality. He truly lives his life by those inspiring American ideals I have ultimately stopped believing in a long time ago. If the dude showed up to my house today I wouldn't internally cringe in fear about whether or not he's one of the "good ones."

Podge293 · Mar 31, 2019

zoggy said:
You guys have discussed all of infinity war but not this point.

Was cap right and or justified in his principle belief? Vision even called out his hypocrisy because of how cap sacrificed himself to bury the tesseract. Hell the grenade scene in the first avenger also makes him a hypocrite.

Is killing one innocent person ok if it saves 2? 100? 1000? How about half all in the universe?

Killing vision didn't save anything because thanos just cheat codes out of it anyways. But what if he couldn't?

Yes killing 1 to save more than 1 is justifiable

More_Badass · Mar 31, 2019

jontin said:
This was equally as aggravating to me as Starlord screwing everything up.

People act emotionally.

Alienous · Mar 31, 2019

I don't think there's any hypocrisy in it - Cap would prefer a fight to preemptive sacrifice.

It's not that he's against jumping in front of a bullet, but he's against surrendering one person to spare others.

Einchy · Mar 31, 2019

Seesaw15 said:
I don't know. I'd feel pretty bad about killing a 3 year old.

What if it was, like, a really annoying three year old?

jontin · Mar 31, 2019

Nepenthe said:
The American military complex...

If that's how you feel, ok.

DeltaRed · Mar 31, 2019

It would have been a better point had he not been talking about a robot A.I.

"We don't trade lives"

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