We don’t tolerate racism, homophobia, etc here but attacking religion is OK, why?

[Pilgrimzero]

Wouldn't it be better to blame the person for using his religion in a bad way instead of the religion itself?

Has religion never made anyone a better person? Used for good?

 

[Getting Away With It]

The answer to this question are so obvious that I struggle to believe it was asked legitimately (and if it was, it's been answered multiple times over in this thread).

For me it's even more simple - imaginary friends are a thing for kids. If you're still believing in shit like that as an adult you deserve to be ridiculed.

 

[Principate]

This place only attacks Christianity. You wont see it attacking other religions. I find Christian beliefs to be very irrational but I don't think the way to deal with them is mockery. You have every right to do it, but it's not helpful. Find out what their reasons for believing are and tackle that.

I think religious people and non-religious are just as close minded as each other.

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This is totally false. You'll see plenty of Islamophobia on here. There was even a major thread on it.

 

[Mekanos]

It's a thin line to walk with criticism of say, Islam or Judaism, due to the racism component, but at least for Americans, Christianity is the dominant ideology, so it's really hard to say by mocking Christianity you are punching down.

I will argue that being religious is not necessarily a choice if you are born and raised in it and never given the opportunity to actually join as an adult. You are indoctrinated from a young age to believe whatever religion it is.

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Being indoctrinated into religion isn't the same thing as being born black or born gay.

 

[Addleburg]

The same reason it's okay to criticize people's politics or ideas: they're not innate to who you are the way that ethnicity, orientation, identity, and gender are. That doesn't mean it's not important to you, but it's your belief system. And depending on the belief system, it can cause a lot of the other bigoted ideas that have become normalized over time.

I don't think people should be assholes to someone based on their religion, but this doesn't mean their religion is or should be free from criticism.

 

[julia crawford]

This is a complex conversation and it brings with it genuine racism that is bound to historical discrimination and cultural othering. But there's a big distinction to be made as to the system that one can compare between, say, the tenets of a given religion and the tenets of a given prosocial, progressive movement like LGBTQ+ or BLM or feminism. The latter are politically motivated motions towards increasing the life quality of people, improving their participation in society, and dismantling hard coded discrimination that is antagonistic to them (and results not just in non participation, but slavery, violence, being poor, having no access to healthcare, violations of their dignity and self control and choice). Religions are historically responsible for erecting systemic discrimination and maintaining that status quo over the centuries. Religions also by and large promote conservative ideologies that negate the kind of advancement that radical progressivism has gained us in recent decades. I don't think they're really in the same conversation of "toleration".

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Wouldn't it be better to blame the person for using his religion in a bad way instead of the religion itself?

Has religion never made anyone a better person? Used for good?

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Why wouldn't we then contribute it to the person being good, instead of religion being good?

 

[Nude_Tayne]

Religion is not in the same realm as sexual orientation or race. America hasn't been essentially ruined thanks to right-wing extremist gay and black people.

 

[Eeyore]

Religion is a choice, the other things you mention are not. My experiences with Catholicism and the lack of accountability and generally holding back progress because old white dudes want to tell women what to do with their bodies amongst many other obvious things makes me appreciate little about organized religion. I have nothing against spirituality and believing what you want and understand the urge to be part of a community. I do not however, and will not ever, understand blindly believing something from a book from thousands of years ago because you're afraid of a group of people.

 

[Readler]

Wouldn't it be better to blame the person for using his religion in a bad way instead of the religion itself?

Has religion never made anyone a better person? Used for good?

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Not arguing with the second point, because I'm convinced it that, but as for the first point: Islam and Christianity literally call homosexuality a sin and sodomy - among other things.

 

[napkins]

Wouldn't it be better to blame the person for using his religion in a bad way instead of the religion itself?

Has religion never made anyone a better person? Used for good?

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if it can be used for good, it can be used for bad
and until major religions actually preach equality for all, fuck them

 

[Deleted member 75819]

There's a difference between attacking religion generally on the basis of its role in oppression, patriarchy, war & social indoctrination and attacking religious individuals for their beliefs and lifestyle.

 

[Nigel Tufnel]

You should probably add some context to this thread. You were surprised that a mostly irreligious or atheist group of people were not bothered by people "desecrating an altar" that hold no significance for them, yet they are bothered by hateful graffiti.

I guess I could ask you the inverse. Why do actions with observable, real-life consequences such as hate speech bother you less than the non-religious not showing the same reverence to a place of worship?

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Faux concern trolling because folks weren't offended enough about porn being shot in a church elicits a major eye roll.

YIKES.

 

[Combo]

I will argue that being religious is not necessarily a choice if you are born and raised in it and never given the opportunity to actually join as an adult. You are indoctrinated from a young age to believe whatever religion it is.

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This is a good point. It's the same with politics. Some people are surrounded by messed up beliefs and don't have what it takes to get out. It's our job to do what we can to help. We shouldn't just assume that they are intellectually capable persons who who stubbornly cling onto false beliefs.

 

[Skytylz]

Same could be said of bigoted beliefs, depending on the environment, but that doesn't make use anymore tolerant of them just because they're difficult to reject for those people

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Yeah, and the reason we reject them is because of the harm they cause. My issues with religion are mostly the bigotry that come with it a lot of the time. I would say that discrimination based on religion is wrong if it's purely based on them being religious if they aren't practicing or promoting bigoted practices.

 

[Judau]

Religion is an ideology/belief system. Not an ethnicity or sexual orientation.

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That's true, but somehow I doubt that making fun of a guy for wearing pink or making fun of someone's hairstyle would be tolerated, so how would religion be any different in that sense?

 

[Deleted member 14377]

Wouldn't it be better to blame the person for using his religion in a bad way instead of the religion itself?

Has religion never made anyone a better person? Used for good?

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Why should I give a fuck when most of them think my mother and a lot of important, great people in my life and in the world and destined to rot in hell or are sub-human?

So no. I don't think it has.

 

[Combo]

This is totally false. You'll see plenty of Islamophobia on here. There was even a major thread on it.

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Perhaps I haven't been around here enough. I have only seen anti-Christian stuff being posted.

 

[TechnicPuppet]

I don't really know the answer to this. Religion is a protected characteristic in the UK though I don't know about elsewhere.

So in the UK you are absolutely not free to attack someone's religion for the sake of it.

 

[Arttemis]

You should probably add some context to this thread. You were surprised that a mostly irreligious or atheist group of people were not bothered by people "desecrating an altar" that hold no significance for them, yet they are bothered by hateful graffiti.

I guess I could ask you the inverse. Why do actions with observable, real-life consequences such as hate speech bother you less than the non-religious not showing the same reverence to a place of worship?

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I'd appreciate the answer to this, also.

 

[Mekanos]

That's true, but somehow I doubt that making fun of a guy for wearing pink or making fun of someone's hairstyle would be tolerated, so how would religion be any different in that sense?

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People here make fun of hairstyles all the time...

Making fun of a guy wearing pink is rooted in misogyny.

 

[Khanimus]

Religion is taught and reinforced through home and wider cultural pressure. People may not 'choose' to be brought up in those structures, but they can certainly choose to push back against the inherently regressive (or outright vile) aspects of religious dogma.

Religious institutions only have as much power and influence because they are allowed to.

Nobody is equating wearing a cross on your neck to being anywhere close to the actual damage the church has done peoples' lives.

 

[Eeyore]

That's true, but somehow I doubt that making fun of a guy for wearing pink or making fun of someone's hairstyle would be tolerated, so how would religion be any different in that sense?

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Randomly making fun of someone for being Christian or Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist or whatever wouldn't be acceptable. But in a topic about say, voting blocs in the United States, making fun of evangelical Christians voting for a man who fucks porn stars is perfectly acceptable imo.

 

[key]

Partly true but most people who grow up in a family that is religious tend to favour their way to be religious and that particular religion as well. If your family is in the heart of southern America and your parents are Christians, your not gonna have much choice but be brought as a Christian as those values are what those parents will teach. It's not easy to get people out of that believe system when they have being taught their whole lives that their religious practices are the correct and only "true way". I think that applies to all religions and people who grew up with a religious family. Not to step away from the troubles and pain religion causes a lot of people, but from my opinion most people who become religious didn't have much choice growing up. Again I don't support religion and wish it continues to have its grab hold of people diminish.

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It's not easy, but it's possible. I know this from personal experience. I know a lot of people who use the, "Well, that's the way they were raised,'" excuse to justify some pretty awful beliefs/behaviors.

 

[Deleted member 18400]

Wouldn't it be better to blame the person for using his religion in a bad way instead of the religion itself?

Has religion never made anyone a better person? Used for good?

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Whether you personally do good and behave in a way that is positive to the world with your religion is a different argument.

Not a single person can argue that religion hasn't been used as a tool to control people and oppress others who the religion sees as different. It's literally been happening for THOUSANDS of years. Religion has caused wars, atrocities, hate, bigotry, greed.....the list goes on.

Some good does not out way, or balance the scales against the horrible shit that religion has caused and continues to cause on the world every day.

 

[Principate]

Perhaps I haven't been around here enough. I have only seen anti-Christian stuff being posted.

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Visit any notably large thread involving discussing muslims and you'll come across it.

 

[TinTuba47]

Because religion is nothing more than a coping mechanism created by humankind as a response to their mortality.

 

[hjort]

Because it is often responsible for causing the other things you mentioned.

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Religion is an ideology/belief system. Not an ethnicity or sexual orientation.

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You can't choose your race or your sexuality but you can definitely choose your religion which probably denigrates and steps on those who suffer by it's beliefs.

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This. I can respect religious people without respecting their respective religions. I'm not gonna respect things taken on faith by default.

 

[KingSnake]

Religion is a choice and most religion have beliefs or practices that can lead to people being hurt. You can still be religious without adhering to those beliefs and practices.

Race and sexual orientation is something you've born with.

 

[Siggy-P]

People in my first world country will often destroy their lives and murder their own children in the name of religion. Some of the worst aspects of humanity, while not limited to religion, have been propogated and pushed by it for over two millenia.

I've known a few cool and awesome religous people. They're in the far, far minority.

 

[captive]

This just came across my twitter feed this morning.

I think it explains it perfectly. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133

 

[Deleted member 543]

Personal belief and religion are two separate things.

A religion is an institutionalised system. Like all systems it's fair game to criticise its flaws.

 

[Kitsunebaby]

Religions are ideologies. Why on earth should any ideology be free from criticism?

 

[Red]

All orthodoxy is opt-in. If you adopt magical thinking, you can expect people to push back on your belief.

 

[CHC]

If you think religion is a "choice" then you could also blame diabetics for their diets, and addicts for their decision to start using. It's a product of the environment you're raised in, yes you CAN break from it but statistically many will not because it means rearranging your entire lifestyle and social support system.

It'a a weird exception to one of the core ideas of liberalism, which is that we don't blame people for things that their environment imposes on them.

None of this is to say that religion is blameless, it obviously can be a huge vector for the spread of bigotry, ignorance, regressionism, etc.

But saying people "choose" their religion is a weird position to take, you're putting way too much onus on individuals and it has very non-progressive implications.

 

[JohnDusk]

So why here in this board that preaches inclusivity find it so okay to not only trash but outright attack something as personal as someone's religion?

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I would not say that this forum preaches inclusivity. Among other things, this forum is a safe haven for people that are attacked, treated like utter trash and sometimes killed in the outside world just for being who they are. Therefore the forum cannot be 100% inclusive. Many of the major religions in their official incarnations, promote hate and push the idea that, just to put an example, certain people should not exist because of their sexual preference. I am a cis gender heterosexual middle class man. It does not get any more privileged than this. At first, I was a bit surprised every now and then with what I perceived as double standards, but now I totally get it. Do a bit of soul searching and I am sure you'll get it too. ;)

 

[julia crawford]

Wow thread on the road to 20 pages very quickly.

 

[Keldroc]

That's true, but somehow I doubt that making fun of a guy for wearing pink or making fun of someone's hairstyle would be tolerated, so how would religion be any different in that sense?

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Both of the examples you cite are likely to be part of homophobia, especially the first.

You're gonna have to accept that there's a very distinct line between "don't mock the color of my skin" and "don't mock the fact that I think a Bronze Age river god cares how often we masturbate."

 

[NoblesseOblige]

This is totally false. You'll see plenty of Islamophobia on here. There was even a major thread on it.

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From my own first hand witnessing of Islamophobia it seems to have less to do with religion and more with the main practitioners being of non-white skin tones. So it seems more a case of racism than anything. And with that, racists should be banned here.

 

[Deleted member 16657]

Partly true but most people who grow up in a family that is religious tend to favour their way to be religious and that particular religion as well. If your family is in the heart of southern America and your parents are Christians, your not gonna have much choice but be brought as a Christian as those values are what those parents will teach. It's not easy to get people out of that believe system when they have being taught their whole lives that their religious practices are the correct and only "true way". I think that applies to all religions and people who grew up with a religious family. Not to step away from the troubles and pain religion causes a lot of people, but from my opinion most people who become religious didn't have much choice growing up. Again I don't support religion and wish it continues to have its grab hold of people diminish.

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I will argue that being religious is not necessarily a choice if you are born and raised in it and never given the opportunity to actually join. You are indoctrinated from a young age to believe whatever religion it is.

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Continuing to believe is always a choice, imo. Its not an easy choice to stop making especially if you've been indoctrinated your whole life. Most people will just fall down the rabbithole being guided by their faith. Because I am of X faith, I don't believe in gay marriage, abortion, climate change, and so on. But it is still a choice, one that people stop making every day. We can have sympathy for those born in the unfortunate situation of being indoctrinated their entire lives. I'm not going to be mad at someone who literally has never known anything but their religion's ideas. But after they have encountered opposing ideas and decide to reject them, then we can recognize their personal culpability in continuing to engage with their faith. And you don't need to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Lots of people grew up with certain religious traditions, but also recognized specific flaws and let go of them while not letting go of their faith entirely.

 

[IBLiSTRiGGER]

sometimes, i wonder. as a practicing witch and celtic pagan, i do ocassionally don't feel very welcome here because of the anti-religious streak. i'm not a christian, but people here attack 'religion', not christianity -- and sometimes i feel like i would be judged for believing 'woo woo nonsense'. so what? it's what i believe. is that not valid as any other religion?

i've also seen some pretty bad islamophobia, and antisemitism every now and again, often gone unaddressed. i have definitely seen a lot of disdain for neo-pagan beliefs, though imo, that is distinctly less nasty than the other too -- though the belittling and condscension towards native and hoodoo practitioners can be quite nasty. this place forgets that religious people can be persecuted minorities, as well. you can say 'you can choose', but the truth is a lot more complicated than that.

 

[anamika]

For what it's worth, I've never really seen any hostility towards Buddhism. I also don't think that they have passages saying to burn gays, so I dunno.

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Non of the non abrahmic/eastern religions have anything in their scriptures about gay people as far as I know. The criminalization of homosexuality was introduced by the British in Asia, Africa and the other colonies they ruled due to Christianity. The recently overturned law criminalizing gay sex in India and the current criminalization of gay sex in Singapore are all British era laws.

 

[Deleted member 3208]

I will argue that being religious is not necessarily a choice if you are born and raised in it and never given the opportunity to actually join as an adult. You are indoctrinated from a young age to believe whatever religion it is.

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Hard disagree. My mother is Catholic and most of my family are too. My country is extremely conservative. I was even enrolled in a catholic school and graduated from it. Did the First Communion too. Hell, back then I always wanted to go to church on Sunday. But somewhere along the way, while I was growing up, I realized religion was a waste of time for me. Talking to an invincible being that may as well not exist was totally loco. Plus the Catholic church is so corrupt, incluiding the nuns that owned the high school, that I decided to not be involved with that organization.

Since I was 15 years old I became an Atheist. And never looked back. Despite clashing sometimes with my mother because of that.

 

[Kthulhu]

As long as the criticism isn't based on bigotry I don't see the issue.

 

[Principate]

From my own first hand witnessing of Islamophobia it seems to have less to do with religion and more with the main practitioners being of non-white skin tones. So it seems more a case of racism than anything.

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It can be both as the two often feed into each other.

 

[GameAddict411]

I think most people on these forums don't attack people who religious unless they personally did something terribly wrong. The conversation focuses on the beliefs more from my experience which is fine. And like others have mentioned, people tend to choose their faith. Yes it's mostly passed down from family, but as you get older you have the freedom to do what you want at least in the US. Sexual orientation, gender, and race are things that are not chosen. What's worse is that organized religion eventually leads to group think. Evangelicals Christians are a great example of how bad organized religions could get.

 

[Seductivpancakes]

This is totally false. You'll see plenty of Islamophobia on here. There was even a major thread on it.

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Yep. I think to the point that Islam Era all left.

 

[Redcrayon]

Where criticism of religion and faith crosses into xenophobia and racism, then it's something we do address. However, comparisons of personal faith to the level of prejudice faced by minorities, ignoring that some religions are the ones leading that bigotry and have a long history of prejudice and harm inflicted over hundreds of years, is not an OP we think will lead to a productive discussion.