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Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,711
"Machine learning techniques are being applied to all sorts of technologies, and it's only natural to wonder how those could be used to empower game development.

That's exactly what Google is researching for developers through its Project Chimera. A team of engineers and developers have been looking into the potential applications of generative adversarial networks (GANs)."

"What if a team of 14 people could make a game the scale of World of Warcraft? That's an absurd goal, right? The thing about games like WoW is that they rely on a lot of heavy, repetitive content creation. The artists and the writers are doing a lot of essentially duplicate work, that's where a lot of the investment goes. If you look at the amount of money that is spent making a game like World Warcraft, it's like 70% content and 30% or less code, even though it's a tremendous amount of code, it's way more on the content side."

"by playing the game millions of times with reinforcement learning agents that we've trained on the rules of the game, that lets us test the balance very, very quickly. So even a small developer who might not have access to hundreds of people to playtest their game could have access to this reinforcement learning tool that will optimise the play of the game. It can learn the game by itself without being scripted and then tell you where the problems are in the balancing. It lets you test your theories of the design against what's actually happening in real time."

wccftech.com

Google Wants to Enable Devs to Create WoW-Sized Games With Small Teams Through Machine Learning

A research team at Google Stadia is working Project Chimera to enable developers to create WoW-sized games through machine learning.

"Stadia has put together a team of game developers, machine learning engineers and infrastructure engineers in order to create gameplay prototypes to demonstrate the potential for machine learning in game development, it told MCV/DEVELOP.

"We're taking on the risk that developers don't want to," explains Erin Hoffman-John, head of creative for Stadia research and development. "We've been talking externally to developers and asking them, what are the things that you've always wanted to do but have not been able to do? What are the things that you've had to cut out of your games because you haven't been able to do them fast enough, or you just haven't had the processing power?"




"So what is Semantic ML? And at its core, semantic ML is just phrase or word association. But of course, some phrases are more closely associated than others. So for example, the word 'flower' is more closely associated to 'tulip' than it is to 'funeral.' So what Semantic ML can do is give us these like word distances, these word vectors, and some of these word vectors are actually signals of context. So for example, a flower can be put into a vase"

"I didn't actually programme the fox to answer questions," Kipnis cuts in, "or even to know you know what the heck coffee is. What I've done was I've taken an object that looks like a mug, and I've given it the label in plain English, 'small mug.' And then semantic ML kind of did everything else for me through those word associations."

"Of course, Google's experiments with machine learning open up the door to new and exciting game experiences, but they could also provide quality of life improvements for developers. With crunch being constantly discussed in the industry, machine learning could allow more developers more time outside of development, beyond just the potential for improving their games."

Can machine learning revolutionise game development? Stadia thinks it can | MCV/DEVELOP

How Stadia's project Chimera and Semantic ML use machine learning to change game development as…
 
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ToadPacShakur

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Oct 25, 2017
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Google probably just wants anyone in gaming to notice them, really
 

qatak

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Oct 27, 2017
545
My expectations for this having any sort of meaningful impact on game design are about as low as possible lol.
 

ZiZ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,716
I don't think we're there yet, but in the future having AI create dynamic content feels like a given.
Imagine playing an MMO and getting unique quests tailored to you.
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
Can't wait for the WoW- killer made by small teams.

There's nothing in there but dailies a la BFA.

Google gonna bring gaming forward again
 

Parenegade

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,589
People are gonna be negative as fuck (surprise surprise) but if this could actually work it would change game development forever. Would love to see what V1 actually looks like.
 

Starlatine

533.489 paid youtubers cant be wrong
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Oct 28, 2017
30,378
People are gonna be negative as fuck (surprise surprise) but if this could actually work it would change game development forever.

That's the actual problem though

If that actually works and teams of writers and artists start getting subbed by a bunch of programmers putting directives on an AI, its not really an improvement on my optics
 
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Alucardx23

Alucardx23

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Nov 8, 2017
4,711
My expectations for this having any sort of meaningful impact on game design are about as low as possible lol.

This is a thing already, in the sense that you can already train AI to play a game well. This is just another step in making that AI do other types of reporting, like bugs, framerate on every single corner of the game, how long does it take to complete quests, etc. When you take the video below and imagine this type of AI playing and testing games by the thousands, I honestly don't know how someone can say this will have no meaningful impact.

 
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erd

Self-Requested Temporary Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
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The technology obviously isn't yet at a level where an AI could just make WoW by itself, but the article does point out some good examples of how current AI technology could be useful for small teams. Like the part where they used reinforcement learning to identify balance issues in a card game. That's definitely something that's possible right now and I could see it being really helpful for developers, especially small-size indie devs who don't have the time and resources for extensive balance testing.
 

Hazzuh

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Oct 28, 2017
2,166
People have been using algorithms to procedurally generate content since the 1980s at least. It is well known what the strengths and flaws of this approach are. It is incredibly tedious seeing Google (and many others) acting like machine learning is some silver bullet that will resolve every issue.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
I think ML will impact gaming next gen more than teraflops, CUs and SSDs. People don't understand it though. It's not one thing. What's happening is an exponential advancement in tools. This doesn't replace creative people. It will actually empower them. By advancing tools to improve efficiency, smaller teams can do more in a growing industry. It puts more power into the hands of the creative people who can make original stories, art, characters, music and game design because it makes more diversity of content financially viable.

If you think ML replaces creativity and put less emphasis of unique, personal creativity, then you don't understand it.
 
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Alucardx23

Alucardx23

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Nov 8, 2017
4,711
People are gonna be negative as fuck (surprise surprise) but if this could actually work it would change game development forever. Would love to see what V1 actually looks like.

Exactly, this does seem like a tool that will help developers make better games. I guess the major problem is that this tool comes from google. Honestly it seems like a lot of people here don't use Gmail, Google Maps, Google Chrome or any other type of Google service/app, because they don't work at all for them. There are clear examples of AI learning to play games at professional levels already, looking forward to see this work for developers.
 
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Calabi

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Oct 26, 2017
3,485
This isn't just unique to Google, Unity has a similar thing where you can set up machine learning systems to bug test and play your game and do all sorts of things with it.
 
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Alucardx23

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,711
I think ML will impact gaming next gen more than teraflops, CUs and SSDs. People don't understand it though. It's not one thing. What's happening is an exponential advancement in tools. This doesn't replace creative people. It will actually empower them. By advancing tools to improve efficiency, smaller teams can do more in a growing industry. It puts more power into the hands of the creative people who can make original stories, art, characters, music and game design because it makes more diversity of content financially viable.

If you think ML replaces creativity and put less emphasis of unique, personal creativity, then you don't understand it.

+1
 

Dark Knight

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Oct 25, 2017
19,271
I fully believe in the future you'll be able to have a computer make a game for you simply by describing the game to the computer, and then all the parameters of each feature and element.

This is sort of the early precursor to that.
 

OneBadMutha

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Nov 2, 2017
6,059
People have been using algorithms to procedurally generate content since the 1980s at least. It is well known what the strengths and flaws of this approach are. It is incredibly tedious seeing Google (and many others) acting like machine learning is some silver bullet that will resolve every issue.

...and it gets better. We're getting to a point in many industries where its reached a tipping point. Its not a silver bullet. ML includes a wide spectrum of uses as tools that can greatly improve human efficiency and understanding. It doesn't reduce or replace human inclination or creativity. The integration between hand crafting and procedural is part of its evolution.
 

Castamere

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,517
It shows how out of touch Google and Amazon are. People dont need mmos. People are fine with 4 player coop games and they're way easier to maintain. Point being you'd be better off trying for a system that could create smaller maps at insane detail.
 
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Alucardx23

Alucardx23

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Nov 8, 2017
4,711
It shows how out of touch Google and Amazon are. People dont need mmos. People are fine with 4 player coop games and they're way easier to maintain. Point being you'd be better off trying for a system that could create smaller maps at insane detail.

You are missing the point. An mmo was given as an example of a game that could be built by a team of 14 people, once this technology gets mature enough, but this doesn't mean it cannot be used to play test any type of game genre.
 
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Deleted member 51691

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A lot of things Google claims are very aspirational. Wouldn't expect even half of it to be feasible in reality.
 

Segafreak

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Oct 27, 2017
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AI is gonna fundamentally change how games are made within 20 years.



Imagine a 360 camera going thru New York and it converts to an open world in a future Spider Man game. Imagine a program where you can set the parameters to a genre, you choose 3D Platformer, then feed it some examples in multiple categories, in imagery, music, sound bytes, whether it's level based or open world, allowing it to get inspired by classics etc.

Shit is gonna become real sometime. Even if not for a game made entirely by AI, it will speed up game development by not having everything hand crafted.
 

wafflebrain

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Oct 27, 2017
10,211
This sounds pretty cool if doable, sorta sounds like the next step up from what Hello Games achieved with NMS. I remember reading they created AI bots that would scour tons of worlds for collecting data on various aspects of the procedural gen stuff. Leveraging something similar to create whole characters and questlines plus areas pertaining to those could indeed make an indie dev's potential scope of a project increase by an order of magnitude.

I'd love to see what a predominately machine learning produced AA/AAA game would look like.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
AI is gonna fundamentally change how games are made within 20 years.



Imagine a 360 camera going thru New York and it converts to an open world in a future Spider Man game. Imagine a program where you can set the parameters to a genre, you choose 3D Platformer, then feed it some examples in multiple categories, in imagery, music, sound bytes, whether it's level based or open world, allowing it to get inspired by classics etc.

Shit is gonna become real sometime. Even if not for a game made entirely by AI, it will speed up game development by not having everything hand crafted.


This is probably how a ready player one "oasis" will be possible.
 

singo

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Can they also enable them to create Stadia-sized flops?
 
Mar 18, 2019
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Deep learning is currently being used to upscale images, video, and graphics, from SD to HD, or from HD to 4K. It is also being used to create deep fakes. Deep learning could impact game design in the future.
 

Deleted member 13645

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Very interesting. It comes across like a next step in procedural generation. It won't be applicable to all games, but I can imagine something like an open RPG where it has a realistically vast ocean. No dev team in their right mind would try to populate that entire realistically-scaled ocean, but an AI could. It could add a sense of discovery and places for players to explore on a huge scale.

But ultimately I wonder if it'll run into the same pattern pitfalls that proc gen does. The world of Skyrim captured people because of how discovery feels organic. You climb some hills and cross valley and stumble across a cave with stuff in it you won't see anywhere else in the game. There's always something new to discover and it doesn't break down into feeling formulaic. Conversely something like No Man's Sky is amazing, but you can clearly see the seams on it. You've seen a creature with those same legs and eyes, but this one has a stretched out body. You see the fundamental lego pieces that the game is building with for its procedural generation. Will AI have the same problem where the patterns and seams will be visible on a world it designs? For example you walk through a city and something about it feels familiar, and then you realize it's the layout of Orgrimmar from WoW. You see the glimpses of the data it was trained on.

But even if that does end up being an issue, it's a fascinating thing that could have a lot of uses.
 

SaintBowWow

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Oct 25, 2017
4,082
I've been saying for awhile that we've basically hit a ceiling in terms of what human labor can produce on a realistic timescale. Regardless of how conceivably big games could be on next-gen consoles or generations beyond the scope of games isn't going to get much bigger unless automation like this is introduced. Plus games similar in scale to large games today could be made without all the crunch that's become the norm.
 

Nintendo

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Oct 27, 2017
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I don't doubt that being possible TBH. This is the next step for procedural generation and I hope it comes to fruition.
 

Arttemis

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Oct 28, 2017
6,200
I genuinely expect this kind of computer-assisted creation to become the norm in the near future. There's enough naturally occurring biome and topographical data that can be fed into a computer to create a manipulable algorithm that can fit whatever kind of setting and circumstance imaginable.

No Man's Sky was created by a minuscule team, but with a more flexible and bespoke tool than a mathematical equation leading the procedural generation, including crafty methods of populating that giant space appropriately, the results could be on par with the best open worlds we know now but orders of magnitude larger.

I'm not saying this project will be the one to get there, but it has to start somewhere, somehow.
 
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Cipherr

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Oct 26, 2017
13,426
That's the actual problem though

If that actually works and teams of writers and artists start getting subbed by a bunch of programmers putting directives on an AI, its not really an improvement on my optics


This is like shitting on ANY advancement in tech or game development because it makes things more efficient and takes less people. How big was the development team for Metal Gear on the master system? Now thanks to advancements, how big of a team would be required to make a game like that today?

These advancements are going to happen over time anyway. Its natural. And I hate the idea of railing against the advancement of dev tools or technology in general because it creates situations where tasks require less man power. As if the job count should be some artificial 'cap' on the evolution of technology.

AI is gonna fundamentally change how games are made within 20 years.



Imagine a 360 camera going thru New York and it converts to an open world in a future Spider Man game. Imagine a program where you can set the parameters to a genre, you choose 3D Platformer, then feed it some examples in multiple categories, in imagery, music, sound bytes, whether it's level based or open world, allowing it to get inspired by classics etc.

Shit is gonna become real sometime. Even if not for a game made entirely by AI, it will speed up game development by not having everything hand crafted.


I was going to post something similar because its super obvious that AI is going to be HUGE in the future of gaming. Im hoping people are just playing dumb because they don't like the messenger or Google in this case, because this is really "no duh" territory at this point.
 
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Alucardx23

Alucardx23

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Nov 8, 2017
4,711
A lot of info here. Hope they go deeper on this by Tuesday.

"Stadia has put together a team of game developers, machine learning engineers and infrastructure engineers in order to create gameplay prototypes to demonstrate the potential for machine learning in game development, it told MCV/DEVELOP.

"We're taking on the risk that developers don't want to," explains Erin Hoffman-John, head of creative for Stadia research and development. "We've been talking externally to developers and asking them, what are the things that you've always wanted to do but have not been able to do? What are the things that you've had to cut out of your games because you haven't been able to do them fast enough, or you just haven't had the processing power?"




"So what is Semantic ML? And at its core, semantic ML is just phrase or word association. But of course, some phrases are more closely associated than others. So for example, the word 'flower' is more closely associated to 'tulip' than it is to 'funeral.' So what Semantic ML can do is give us these like word distances, these word vectors, and some of these word vectors are actually signals of context. So for example, a flower can be put into a vase"

"I didn't actually programme the fox to answer questions," Kipnis cuts in, "or even to know you know what the heck coffee is. What I've done was I've taken an object that looks like a mug, and I've given it the label in plain English, 'small mug.' And then semantic ML kind of did everything else for me through those word associations."


Can machine learning revolutionise game development? Stadia thinks it can | MCV/DEVELOP

How Stadia's project Chimera and Semantic ML use machine learning to change game development as…
 
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dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,580
Procedurally generated game yay even less personality and charm than we are getting it today...
 

Batatina

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Oct 25, 2017
5,263
Edinburgh, UK
I don't love the idea of huge generic worlds made by algorithm, versus tighter properly designed maps created by artists. There is no point in making Wow sized games just for the sake of it, in my opinion.
 
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Alucardx23

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,711
Procedurally generated game yay even less personality and charm than we are getting it today...

I don't love the idea of huge generic worlds made by algorithm, versus tighter properly designed maps created by artists. There is no point in making Wow sized games just for the sake of it, in my opinion.

You should really read more about the subject. Does Horizon zero Dawn has no personality to you?

GPU-BASED PROCEDURAL PLACEMENT IN HORIZON ZERO DAWN

"Jaap van Muijden describes the GPU based procedural placement system that dynamically creates the world of Horizon Zero Dawn around the player. Not limited to just rocks and trees, the procedural system assembles fully-fledged environments while the player walks through them, complete with sounds, effects, wildlife and game-play elements. Van Muijden shows the entire pipeline, from the graph editor where artists can define the procedural placement rules to the GPU algorithms that create a dense world around the player on the fly."

www.guerrilla-games.com

GPU-Based Procedural Placement in Horizon Zero Dawn

Jaap van Muijden describes the GPU based procedural placement system that dynamically creates the world of Horizon Zero Dawn around the player.