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Quad Lasers

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,542
In a perfect world, this would have just been our Expanse Season 2 for the Infinite Warfare timeline.

We'll see how this unfolds, but I'm not expecting anything other than a supremely hackneyed message about global conflicts.
 

Green Yoshi

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,597
Cologne (Germany)
"We get dirty and the world stays clear."

Is this a trivialization of war crimes of American soldiers, campaigning for Trump, or both?

i think this perception that if a game is more political or it strives to be more political it somehow makes the game more mature is i think misplaced. Do you expect Grand Theft Auto to be an anti-crime game or have an anti-crime narrative? Certain games can and should approach those angles, but there's also nothing wrong with what COD does in its approach to storytelling
GTA V is a cynical settlement with the United States, not a statement about crime. Moreover, unlike war, crime is socially frowned upon. Nobody demands to allow murders and to abolish prisons.
 
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Prolepro

Ghostwire: BooShock
Banned
Nov 6, 2017
7,310
It's Call of Duty.

I'm not playing it for some grand statement on the horrors of war.

I'm playing it to be inundated with Michael Bay explosions and gunfights. That's what the series is best at and excels in that department.

I know Mr. Walker finds that distasteful, but it's what people who enjoy the series have come to expect.

The entire statements in the article given by the developers could have applied to MW, MW2, BO2, or BO3 as well.
It's been 15 years.

Games should grow up too.
 

StrykerIsland

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,155
It was an illustration of wider issue, one that I already stated has been cultivated by the industry which has now created a feedback loop of expectation. Looking back I should have done a better job at separating the trend from the poster and for that portion I do apologize because antagonizing you, as a person, was not the intention.
Apology accepted, thanks. You are correct though, I do have certain expectations, but where I think you missed the mark a bit is those expectations aren't the same for all games. For instance, I can appreciate the hell out of a Last Guardian or Firewatch, just as much (or more) as a Destiny or Spider-Man. Different genres, different experiences, but that doesn't stop me from playing and enjoying the heck out of them for what they are, whatever that might be.
 
Oct 30, 2017
15,278
Me: War is hell. This single-player campaign taught me a thing or two about the atrocities of war.

*BLAST BEAT LEVEL-UP SOUNDS WITH A "YEEEEAAAAAHHHHH" THROWN IN*

Also me: Oh fuck yeah
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,466
>Waypoint
Bless you, OP.


Ah yes, criticizing if the game is doing exactly what the devs are telling they are trying to do is overthinking, therefore we should never do it, thanks for the clarification.
They've said it before and delivered garbage like No Russian. Why the hell would anyone take anything the makers of this series seriously when they have always delivered one thing?
 

NESpowerhouse

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,663
Virginia
tr3FXwk.png
NGL, as a kid, Ace Combat made me wanna join the air force.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,192
They've said it before and delivered garbage like No Russian. Why the hell would anyone take anything the makers of this series seriously when they have always delivered one thing?
Maybe because it's new people talking about it. Like, have you read the article at all, or is that too much Waypoint style overthinking for you to do?

The first pitch came from Jacob Minkoff (Campaign Gameplay Director) and Taylor Kurosaki (Studio Narrative Director), both of whom spent time at Naughty Dog, developers of The Last of Us and the Uncharted series. It's a pedigree that, we're told, makes them perfect for rebooting Modern Warfare with a greater focus on story than ever before. They were bringing a new vision to the series, one that captured the best elements of past series entries while also introducing a fresh perspective never seen in a Modern Warfare game before.

Here's their pitch in brief and in as close to their own words as I can provide, without my own editorializing: Yes, Modern Warfare is an action game, but in contrast to the superheroics of other Call of Duty titles, it will have a focus on "authentic and gritty" military action. It's also an action game that will draw from "relevant headline situations" and will include "social commentary," which "has always been part of Modern Warfare's DNA," gesturing to past, headline-grabbing levels like "No Russian."

What sort of social commentary? Well, war, they say, is "more complex than it was 10 years ago." It's "no longer only over there, it's global," and "it isn't black and white. It's morally gray." Enemies "rarely wear uniforms," and violence on all sides causes "terrible collateral damage." In this "tough to navigate world," "one man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist." Which is why, for the first time, players will take the role not only of Tier 1 special forces operators, but also "rebels" in an (unnamed) Middle Eastern nation who fight both occupying terrorist forces and "military-industrial" invaders.

"We get dirty and the world stays clear."

Is this a trivialization of war crimes of American soldiers, campaigning for Trump, or both?
A country can't talk about war and not trivialize its crimes in it tbh.
 

bricewgilbert

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
868
WA, USA
War is as "complicated" as it has ever been. It hasn't changed in the past 10 years. Maybe I could see an argument for 20 years in terms of tech, but as far why we do it and who we fight it hasn't changed in 50 years. Game just sounds like it was written by people who have been bathed in neo-liberal politics with no understanding of alternatives. They don't want to be 'those right wing" warmongers, but the entire US foreign policy under every president is like that.

At least that's what I would expect. It would be pretty fucking cool if this game subverted that. Marketing your game from that perspective and then saying "fuck that" in the actual text would be pretty nifty.
 

aesync

Member
Jan 19, 2018
560
Chicago
I'm super, super intrigued by this. I've been sick of the COD story and premise for a while now, basically ever since MW2 dealt with russian invasion it felt campy and weird. I really miss the grounded feelings of stalking through Chernobyl from MW1, etc. I think its also gonna be hard for this game to totally escape any kind of controversy either way, but I'd much rather have it at least TRY to engage in issues with a little more nuance versus a pure jingoist invasion fantasy.

Plus, bringing the gunplay back to a modern kitset is my jam.
 

Plasma

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,633
I mentioned this in the main thread. A large percentage of the audience is going to ignore all of the thought-provoking stuff because GUNS AND SHOOTING. Seems like a fool's errand, but I appreciate them at least thinking about it.

I can't remember which one it was but there was one of these with a hilarious "America Fuck Yeah" ending which completely threw everything that story was doing out the window

Edit: Shit it was the original Black Ops?


I think they knew exactly what they were doing when they made that, I'd be really surprised if it wasn't supposed to be completely tongue in cheek.
 

LQX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,871
If we have this sort of take on media I don't see how we can enjoy anything. Thousands die everyday from violence and I bet Austin still probably enjoys watching the latest John Wick or Game of Thrones. But, but, it has dragons....which does not nullify the fact people get murdered in every episode. It is a weird sort of hypocrisy I don't get with those that take issue with extreme violence in games in that many of them are most likely perfectly fine sitting down and enjoying a movie like Die Hard or RoboCop.
 

aesync

Member
Jan 19, 2018
560
Chicago
Also, the mention of the flashback to 20 years before, playing a child who has their family torn apart by russian invasion into an unnamed middle eastern country is really interesting. There's a good opportunity to humanize internal rebel movements and get to play as people from the regions which face conflict rather than US military saviors. That being said, it certainly would be more 'woke' for it to be US military forces that killed the kid's family in the flashback, but I don't think that would fly for the target audience of COD. Interested either way.

People forget that the plot of Ghost Recon 1 was almost beat for beat the actual events that transpired in Ukraine in 2014. I like the idea of showing these conflicts as proxy-wars between superpowers rather than the pure "we gotta kill the terrorists" in an immediate post-9/11 America. That idea is played out and old, and the current timeline of COD is too convoluted and fantasy to make any real statements.
 

data west

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,012
Every time you level up in MP instead of a sick guitar riff it should make your player looks at his hands and be like 'What am I?....'
 

ShutterMunster

Art Manager
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,450
If we have this sort of take on media I don't see how we can enjoy anything. Thousands die everyday from violence and I bet Austin still probably enjoys watching the latest John Wick or Game of Thrones. But, but, it has dragons....which does not nullify the fact people get murdered in every episode. It is a weird sort of hypocrisy I don't get with those that take issue with extreme violence in games in that many of them are most likely perfectly fine sitting down and enjoying a movie like Die Hard or RoboCop.

So you didn't read the article? Good grief.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,192
If we have this sort of take on media I don't see how we can enjoy anything. Thousands die everyday from violence and I bet Austin still probably enjoys watching the latest John Wick or Game of Thrones. But, but, it has dragons....which does not nullify the fact people get murdered in every episode. It is a weird sort of hypocrisy I don't get with those that take issue with extreme violence in games in that many of them are most likely perfectly fine sitting down and enjoying a movie like Die Hard or RoboCop.
You are conflating war - and war based on real countries, factions and conflicts - with any sort of violence.
 

aesync

Member
Jan 19, 2018
560
Chicago
From the article:

Is this new Modern Warfare aiming to be an intense exploration of the complexity of war, or does it instead want to celebrate the technologies, tactics, and violence of combat? Does the development team hope to make players feel uncomfortable with the power they have at their disposal, or should we luxuriate in their capacity for destruction (rendered in higher audio-visual fidelity than ever before)?

I can almost guarantee it is both ways, and will probably suffer for it. With a company the size of Activision, with an IP as large as COD, bets WILL have to be hedged in order to prevent any truly worthwhile commentary to be produced. But, I also guarantee that this push for the player to "feel uncomfortable with the power they have", directly citing one of the most uncomfortable moments in gaming history (the AC-130 mission), makes me believe there are creatives at the company who really do want to create a nuanced piece of media.

Unfortunately, I don't think that narrative will prevail in the end product due to the realistic nature of this game: it is a form of entertainment, escapism, and a power fantasy, and needs to sell copies. This isn't one person, or two, or even a small group leading it - it is a giant company with many different directives, and a whole web of production. The most provocative and interesting ideas will be cut in the design round tables, to appease 15 different conflicting business interests.
 

LavaBadger

Member
Nov 14, 2017
4,988
When I first played Modern Warfare, I walked away from that game thinking the message was, "War is fucked up and terrible."

Seemed like the clear message. The people around you are all dying, terrible things are happening, whenever you need to restart at a checkpoint you're greeted with stats about war like the insane cost of a single bomb, or a quote from a politician that seems disgusting when put in context of all the death.

But somehow we went from that to Modern Warfare 2, which had a story like a bad 90s action movie. I'm not surprised the fan base around the game is what it is.
 

aesync

Member
Jan 19, 2018
560
Chicago
What I'm HOPING for is for your character to be told they are doing the right thing, TOLD there is black/white and good/evil, but reckon with the violence and destabilization they are causing. Best case scenario is the conflict is not resolved at the end, and your actions of a player have only complicated and made things worse. That is the narrative we have lived through as children who grew up in the age of the War on Terror, and is something we have become disillusioned with. If COD can tap into that feeling of hopelessness we feel, I think it could be a really relatable narrative. War is hell, people suffer on both sides, and the 'heroism' you earn is a hollow victory, a meaningless political badge of participation that you aren't sure you deserved.

How confident am I that this will be told with nuance and clarity of vision? Very little, lol
 

Space Lion

Banned
May 24, 2019
1,015
Did Austin Walker watch Infinity War? Play with GI Joe? Like Gundam? If so he is a hypocrite for writing this. Hell, his career is writing about video games, an entertainment medium that mostly subsists through recreation of violence in an interactive space. Do we approve of violence because we think video games are cool? What a poor conclusion.
 

Keasar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,724
Umeå, Sweden
Yup, sounds about right. I don't trust Call of Duty to be a game series that suddenly starts asking hard questions about it's own content, which after 16 years it really should. Only game that came sorta close in the series was Advanced Warfare and even that had a lot of "phwoooaaaaar military tech aye!?" Like he points out in the article, you can't sell a game about how war is bad but then drum up the next 20-30 minutes about how war now looks fucking awesome.

I'm sympathetic to this split, and to anyone trying to squeeze liquid, artistic innovation from the dry stone structure that AAA game development and marketing demands. But sympathy isn't faith. Which is to say, coming out of that event, all I can be confident of is that bombed out battlefields and the air-borne detritus of domestic attacks will look more realistic than ever before, and that when you pull the trigger, you'll feel badass.

That there is what saddens me. It's still what it's all going to boil down to. Nobody will care in the end what the story (if they actually even manage to deliver a half decent one) tells them or anything, in the end, guns went bang and bad guys that were on the opposite of gun went dead. Nothing learnt from it. People here on ERA talk often how Infinite Warfare has one of the best campaigns ever but few ever stop to consider what the hell the game was telling them when they presented the SDF antagonists as this all-evil, baby eating, devil worshipping, earth hating organization with no rhyme or reason for their evilness. Just bad guys, shoot the bad guys, there is no consequence behind any of all this!

Still today, there is only one military themed game that have ever really shook me to the very core of my being, and I get the feeling that it will never be topped.

"The truth, Walker, is that you're here because you wanted to feel like something you're not: a hero."

Those words still haunts me. And none have ever rang more true.
 

RockGun90

Member
Jul 28, 2018
438
Did Austin Walker watch Infinity War? Play with GI Joe? Like Gundam? If so he is a hypocrite for writing this. Hell, his career is writing about video games, an entertainment medium that mostly subsists through recreation of violence in an interactive space. Do we approve of violence because we think video games are cool? What a poor conclusion.
Austin isn't criticizing the violence in the game. He s criticizing the hypocrisy of the games story trying to draw from real world events to portray war as cruel and violent while said game is also going, "LOOK AT THESE GUNS! YOULL BE ABLE TO HEAR THE BULLET CASING RICOCHET OFF THE UNARMED MANS SKULL!"

Edit: Man, reading these replies, you can tell who actually read the article and who just came here to say, "stop trying to politicize my war gaemz".
 

Cian

One Winged Slayer
Member
Feb 17, 2018
576
Did Austin Walker watch Infinity War? Play with GI Joe? Like Gundam? If so he is a hypocrite for writing this. Hell, his career is writing about video games, an entertainment medium that mostly subsists through recreation of violence in an interactive space. Do we approve of violence because we think video games are cool? What a poor conclusion.

1) You can enjoy things while still criticizing them.
2) Modern Warfare is grounded in gritty realism. Superheroes aren't real, but heavily armed military forces operating in foreign territory are. All fiction says something, but Call of Duty says something pretty darn specific.
3) Gundam is frequently about anti-war sentiments.
 

Space Lion

Banned
May 24, 2019
1,015
Austin isn't criticizing the violence in the game. He s criticizing the hypocrisy of the games story trying to draw from real world events to portray war as cruel and violent while said game is also going, "LOOK AT THESE GUNS! YOULL BE ABLE TO HEAR THE BULLET CASING RICOCHET OFF THE UNARMED MANS SKULL!"

Again. He's a hypocrite and raises a poor point.

The entire point of Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket is that War is awful and needless. It shows the development of a naive boy that glorifies war into seeing it for what it is: mindless. And yet throughout that story's lot of badass things happen. Gundam's entire argument as a series is that war is shit and yet a giant portion of it is selling gunpla, real world models of the very things that do the killing. Certainly it's not a 1:1 comparison because guns are real and mechs aren't, but the truth of the matter is that both can be true. Guns be badass but also deadly and instill a fearful reaction.

His criticism also falls on deaf ears and blind eyes. Again, he profits from writing about video games, a medium where almost every game involves killing, especially these days.

If he's so anti-war why does he write about a hobby that so very often involves killing?
 
OP
OP
MadLaughter

MadLaughter

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
13,093
Again. He's a hypocrite and raises a poor point.

The entire point of Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket is that War is awful and needless. It shows the development of a naive boy that glorifies war into seeing it for what it is: mindless. And yet throughout that story's lot of badass things happen. Gundam's entire argument as a series is that war is shit and yet a giant portion of it is selling gunpla, real world models of the very things that do the killing. Certainly it's not a 1:1 comparison because guns are real and mechs aren't, but the truth of the matter is that both can be true. Guns be badass but also deadly and instill a fearful reaction.

His criticism also falls on deaf ears and blind eyes. Again, he profits from writing about video games, a medium where almost every game involves killing, especially these days.

If he's so anti-war why does he write about a hobby that so very often involves killing?

DAohfx1XgAAgjAA.jpg
 

caylen

Publisher - Riot Games
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
139
santa monica
Reconciling praxis & power fantasy can be really, really fucking hard in most entertainment mediums, and War is probably one of the hardest.

I don't know if CoD (or any shooter gaming franchise, honestly) could pull it off, but when I saw the headline of that article my thoughts immediately went to Starship Troopers and how Paul Verhoeven managed to create a film where the slow, cruel and cynical nature of war propaganda was brought to the surface of what's considered to be a pretty damn good action movie (regardless of satirical intent) in the experience. The film was written for the purpose of the subtext, but the context of the story is to make blowing up bugs seem heroic & noble.

So, I think Austin's take is entirely valid, but I also think it's not so much a decision between either/or, but rather it being exceptionally difficult to thread that needle in games. Satire & ludonarrative dissonance is way more difficult to design around in games compared to film/tv, and your target audience (and business goals, honestly) are only going to make it a bit harder to stick. If the next CoD is trying to thread that needle between bad and badass, then I'm super excited to see the attempt, and hope that they stick the landing.
 

Space Lion

Banned
May 24, 2019
1,015
1) You can enjoy things while still criticizing them.
2) Modern Warfare is grounded in gritty realism. Superheroes aren't real, but heavily armed military forces operating in foreign territory are. All fiction says something, but Call of Duty says something pretty darn specific.
3) Gundam is frequently about anti-war sentiments.

Precisely my point. Gundam is anti war but it often goes from this

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To this

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and this

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despite its heavy anti-war themes it also glorifies war by making it badass.

The thing Austin is writing about isn't even unique to Call of Duty.

War is awful but it can also be cool.

The duality of man. Hell, we have entire genres dedicated to this duality such as horror.

Rather than raise a philosophical point he just gets on a soapbox. His argument is one dimensional and vapid.
 

Icemonk191

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,814
Did Austin Walker watch Infinity War? Play with GI Joe? Like Gundam? If so he is a hypocrite for writing this. Hell, his career is writing about video games, an entertainment medium that mostly subsists through recreation of violence in an interactive space. Do we approve of violence because we think video games are cool? What a poor conclusion.
So you didn't read the article then huh? Got it.
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,355
Austin isn't criticizing the violence in the game. He s criticizing the hypocrisy of the games story trying to draw from real world events to portray war as cruel and violent while said game is also going, "LOOK AT THESE GUNS! YOULL BE ABLE TO HEAR THE BULLET CASING RICOCHET OFF THE UNARMED MANS SKULL!"

Edit: Man, reading these replies, you can tell who actually read the article and who just came here to say, "stop trying to politicize my war gaemz".

Well, making the guns actually feel like guns would play a big part of showing the horrors of war. That combined with realistic animations can really change a scene. A lot of what they've said is something that we won't know until it's released. Because they've pointed out how they want sequences to be more realistic and mature and less reliant on gore and body count.

As far as the whole badass thing. The way the military gets people in is under the guise of this all being a badass experience. It's not until you get there and the shit is happening in front of you that it starts to scar you.