The bar Angela and M meet in is also the very same location that the Doc and Comedian quote took place in, further tying it all together.
Birthday cake? Cake to celebrate his arrival?
Plausible...and would work well with what we've seen of Veidt
I will give this a listen. I generally don't love predetermination, but I love it as a thought experiment like in Nietzsche's eternal recurrence, where the main point isn't predetermination per se, but what people do with its knowledge, and that they'd be willing to do it all again. There's something I've always found remarkable about that notion of amor fati, or however you want to call it, that if you had foreknowledge of everything, you'd accept it and do it, because doing so means you're not passively at the mercy of Fate, but you embrace it to be, in a way, on equal footing, as you're a part of it. I'll go on a limb and assume that's the kind of thing Moore had in mind. That's how I've always seen Manhattan, and part of why I loved this episode.
Watching that scene with Adrian in his cell, trying to get out of Paradise, it hit me that he was a bit of a twist on Lucifer, who absolutely didn't want to rule in Heaven, but who'd rather struggle on Earth, earning his way to the top. The romantic imagery in that cell conjured that fallen angel look.
I can understand why there's a bit of confusion and frustration around the Dr Manhattan determinism paradox ("why did he stand in front of the teleporter if he knew he would be teleported?" Etc) - this is one of the many factors why Alan Moore and others consider the original series unfilmable.
Consider this page:
As a very small sample of the structure of the comic book series, Dr Manhattan sees the entire page in one go. As we do, as comic book readers. We perceive the time jump, the repetition, the transition between photo and Mars, the differences between the state of time where the photo was taken and where Jon is now, and his inner monologue which also leaps between chronology, all at once. Yes, we read it linearly, but we don't have to (which can be confusing - and thus the point). And once we finish the page, we can jump to any panel we wish without doing anything but moving our eyes, and also perceive the entire page as a whole.
Watchmen, the comic book series, is using this technique all the time (part of the reason why the 9 panel grid structure is so vital to it).
The reader acts as Dr Manhattan. Taking in the narrative, aware of it, but never being able to change it.
This is one of the unique structural constructions that comic books possess.
This chapter in the graphic novel/series uses this technique to allow the reader to understand what it's like to see the world through Jon's eyes - jumping around out of order. The comic book page allows us to understand it, but this is very, very difficult, if not impossible to recreate in the linear, time based medium of film. Some films use split screen (e.g Ang Lee's Hulk movie) but you can't linger on the screen with that in the same way you can with a comic book. Time, in comics, is both moving and frozen, whereas film has a run-time that inexorably keeps moving even if the frame is static. Any 'pause' is artificial.
Which is why this episode, for me, is phenomenal. Not because it fails to recreate something that is very difficult/nigh impossible to formally recreate in terms of time manipulation, but because despite that, it creates a coherent story which moves the entire TV series both forward and backwards through time via its narrative.
Yes, there's repetition. Yes, there's juxtaposition. Yes there's a lot of exposition. And yes they may seem redundant, but these are entirely the point. Dr Manhattan's perception is all of these things. And frankly, trying to create that effect means that some people's millage may vary. Some will feel it's too expository, some will think it doesn't move enough, others will say it's too hand holdy and others will say it moves too quickly. But there's no way to avoid that. The creators did an incredible job with the limitations (time, budget, medium) that were there to allow for a episode which makes sense of what came before it - and it was always going to be, somehow, too much of one thing to some, and not enough of the other, for others.
(Speaking of limitations, are people really expecting the SFX of a TV series - even one filmed just under 10 years later - to match that of a Zack Snyder movie? C'mon, now.)
I honestly went into this series wanting to hate it, for many reasons. Instead, it's turning out to be one of the most well crafted and brilliant TV series I've seen all year. The level of thought and thematic construction to mimic the comic has been staggering from start to finish.
I can understand why there's a bit of confusion and frustration around the Dr Manhattan determinism paradox ("why did he stand in front of the teleporter if he knew he would be teleported?" Etc) - this is one of the many factors why Alan Moore and others consider the original series unfilmable.
Consider this page:
As a very small sample of the structure of the comic book series, Dr Manhattan sees the entire page in one go. As we do, as comic book readers. We perceive the time jump, the repetition, the transition between photo and Mars, the differences between the state of time where the photo was taken and where Jon is now, and his inner monologue which also leaps between chronology, all at once. Yes, we read it linearly, but we don't have to (which can be confusing - and thus the point). And once we finish the page, we can jump to any panel we wish without doing anything but moving our eyes, and also perceive the entire page as a whole.
Watchmen, the comic book series, is using this technique all the time (part of the reason why the 9 panel grid structure is so vital to it).
The reader acts as Dr Manhattan. Taking in the narrative, aware of it, but never being able to change it.
This is one of the unique structural constructions that comic books possess.
This chapter in the graphic novel/series uses this technique to allow the reader to understand what it's like to see the world through Jon's eyes - jumping around out of order. The comic book page allows us to understand it, but this is very, very difficult, if not impossible to recreate in the linear, time based medium of film. Some films use split screen (e.g Ang Lee's Hulk movie) but you can't linger on the screen with that in the same way you can with a comic book. Time, in comics, is both moving and frozen, whereas film has a run-time that inexorably keeps moving even if the frame is static. Any 'pause' is artificial.
Which is why this episode, for me, is phenomenal. Not because it fails to recreate something that is very difficult/nigh impossible to formally recreate in terms of time manipulation, but because despite that, it creates a coherent story which moves the entire TV series both forward and backwards through time via its narrative.
Yes, there's repetition. Yes, there's juxtaposition. Yes there's a lot of exposition. And yes they may seem redundant, but these are entirely the point. Dr Manhattan's perception is all of these things. And frankly, trying to create that effect means that some people's millage may vary. Some will feel it's too expository, some will think it doesn't move enough, others will say it's too hand holdy and others will say it moves too quickly. But there's no way to avoid that. The creators did an incredible job with the limitations (time, budget, medium) that were there to allow for a episode which makes sense of what came before it - and it was always going to be, somehow, too much of one thing to some, and not enough of the other, for others.
(Speaking of limitations, are people really expecting the SFX of a TV series - even one filmed just under 10 years later - to match that of a Zack Snyder movie? C'mon, now.)
I honestly went into this series wanting to hate it, for many reasons. Instead, it's turning out to be one of the most well crafted and brilliant TV series I've seen all year. The level of thought and thematic construction to mimic the comic has been staggering from start to finish.
Wonderful post, thank you!I can understand why there's a bit of confusion and frustration around the Dr Manhattan determinism paradox ("why did he stand in front of the teleporter if he knew he would be teleported?" Etc) - this is one of the many factors why Alan Moore and others consider the original series unfilmable.
Consider this page:
As a very small sample of the structure of the comic book series, Dr Manhattan sees the entire page in one go. As we do, as comic book readers. We perceive the time jump, the repetition, the transition between photo and Mars, the differences between the state of time where the photo was taken and where Jon is now, and his inner monologue which also leaps between chronology, all at once. Yes, we read it linearly, but we don't have to (which can be confusing - and thus the point). And once we finish the page, we can jump to any panel we wish without doing anything but moving our eyes, and also perceive the entire page as a whole.
Watchmen, the comic book series, is using this technique all the time (part of the reason why the 9 panel grid structure is so vital to it).
The reader acts as Dr Manhattan. Taking in the narrative, aware of it, but never being able to change it.
This is one of the unique structural constructions that comic books possess.
This chapter in the graphic novel/series uses this technique to allow the reader to understand what it's like to see the world through Jon's eyes - jumping around out of order. The comic book page allows us to understand it, but this is very, very difficult, if not impossible to recreate in the linear, time based medium of film. Some films use split screen (e.g Ang Lee's Hulk movie) but you can't linger on the screen with that in the same way you can with a comic book. Time, in comics, is both moving and frozen, whereas film has a run-time that inexorably keeps moving even if the frame is static. Any 'pause' is artificial.
Which is why this episode, for me, is phenomenal. Not because it fails to recreate something that is very difficult/nigh impossible to formally recreate in terms of time manipulation, but because despite that, it creates a coherent story which moves the entire TV series both forward and backwards through time via its narrative.
Yes, there's repetition. Yes, there's juxtaposition. Yes there's a lot of exposition. And yes they may seem redundant, but these are entirely the point. Dr Manhattan's perception is all of these things. And frankly, trying to create that effect means that some people's millage may vary. Some will feel it's too expository, some will think it doesn't move enough, others will say it's too hand holdy and others will say it moves too quickly. But there's no way to avoid that. The creators did an incredible job with the limitations (time, budget, medium) that were there to allow for a episode which makes sense of what came before it - and it was always going to be, somehow, too much of one thing to some, and not enough of the other, for others.
(Speaking of limitations, are people really expecting the SFX of a TV series - even one filmed just under 10 years later - to match that of a Zack Snyder movie? C'mon, now.)
I honestly went into this series wanting to hate it, for many reasons. Instead, it's turning out to be one of the most well crafted and brilliant TV series I've seen all year. The level of thought and thematic construction to mimic the comic has been staggering from start to finish.
This is a fantastic post.I can understand why there's a bit of confusion and frustration around the Dr Manhattan determinism paradox ("why did he stand in front of the teleporter if he knew he would be teleported?" Etc) - this is one of the many factors why Alan Moore and others consider the original series unfilmable.
Consider this page:
As a very small sample of the structure of the comic book series, Dr Manhattan sees the entire page in one go. As we do, as comic book readers. We perceive the time jump, the repetition, the transition between photo and Mars, the differences between the state of time where the photo was taken and where Jon is now, and his inner monologue which also leaps between chronology, all at once. Yes, we read it linearly, but we don't have to (which can be confusing - and thus the point). And once we finish the page, we can jump to any panel we wish without doing anything but moving our eyes, and also perceive the entire page as a whole.
Watchmen, the comic book series, is using this technique all the time (part of the reason why the 9 panel grid structure is so vital to it).
The reader acts as Dr Manhattan. Taking in the narrative, aware of it, but never being able to change it.
This is one of the unique structural constructions that comic books possess.
This chapter in the graphic novel/series uses this technique to allow the reader to understand what it's like to see the world through Jon's eyes - jumping around out of order. The comic book page allows us to understand it, but this is very, very difficult, if not impossible to recreate in the linear, time based medium of film. Some films use split screen (e.g Ang Lee's Hulk movie) but you can't linger on the screen with that in the same way you can with a comic book. Time, in comics, is both moving and frozen, whereas film has a run-time that inexorably keeps moving even if the frame is static. Any 'pause' is artificial.
Which is why this episode, for me, is phenomenal. Not because it fails to recreate something that is very difficult/nigh impossible to formally recreate in terms of time manipulation, but because despite that, it creates a coherent story which moves the entire TV series both forward and backwards through time via its narrative.
Yes, there's repetition. Yes, there's juxtaposition. Yes there's a lot of exposition. And yes they may seem redundant, but these are entirely the point. Dr Manhattan's perception is all of these things. And frankly, trying to create that effect means that some people's millage may vary. Some will feel it's too expository, some will think it doesn't move enough, others will say it's too hand holdy and others will say it moves too quickly. But there's no way to avoid that. The creators did an incredible job with the limitations (time, budget, medium) that were there to allow for a episode which makes sense of what came before it - and it was always going to be, somehow, too much of one thing to some, and not enough of the other, for others.
(Speaking of limitations, are people really expecting the SFX of a TV series - even one filmed just under 10 years later - to match that of a Zack Snyder movie? C'mon, now.)
I honestly went into this series wanting to hate it, for many reasons. Instead, it's turning out to be one of the most well crafted and brilliant TV series I've seen all year. The level of thought and thematic construction to mimic the comic has been staggering from start to finish.
I forget, did Keene say he was going to transfer the power to himself? I know the plan is to steal Jon's power, but is Keene going to be Klanhattan or is that still unclear?
Cake is anniversary cake. The post credit scene's cake has 7 candles, so it happened 3 years ago?
Which is about the same time Lady Trieu bought the farm house in time for the meteor strike?
I can't find the source but IIRC the writers confirmed the meteor strike happened in 2019, even though the way that scene was edited made it seem like Trieu bought the land in the past and built the clock on it. which would mean...
the object that landed is almost surely veidt. and maybe he and trieu will twist this all again to defeat 7K, but then create a Veidt-hattan?
It absolutely wouldn't. We would have none of the discussion we've had so far and it would've been spoiled as fast as people could finish it or "solve" it.
I can understand why there's a bit of confusion and frustration around the Dr Manhattan determinism paradox ("why did he stand in front of the teleporter if he knew he would be teleported?" Etc) - this is one of the many factors why Alan Moore and others consider the original series unfilmable.
Consider this page:
As a very small sample of the structure of the comic book series, Dr Manhattan sees the entire page in one go. As we do, as comic book readers. We perceive the time jump, the repetition, the transition between photo and Mars, the differences between the state of time where the photo was taken and where Jon is now, and his inner monologue which also leaps between chronology, all at once. Yes, we read it linearly, but we don't have to (which can be confusing - and thus the point). And once we finish the page, we can jump to any panel we wish without doing anything but moving our eyes, and also perceive the entire page as a whole.
Watchmen, the comic book series, is using this technique all the time (part of the reason why the 9 panel grid structure is so vital to it).
The reader acts as Dr Manhattan. Taking in the narrative, aware of it, but never being able to change it.
This is one of the unique structural constructions that comic books possess.
This chapter in the graphic novel/series uses this technique to allow the reader to understand what it's like to see the world through Jon's eyes - jumping around out of order. The comic book page allows us to understand it, but this is very, very difficult, if not impossible to recreate in the linear, time based medium of film. Some films use split screen (e.g Ang Lee's Hulk movie) but you can't linger on the screen with that in the same way you can with a comic book. Time, in comics, is both moving and frozen, whereas film has a run-time that inexorably keeps moving even if the frame is static. Any 'pause' is artificial.
Which is why this episode, for me, is phenomenal. Not because it fails to recreate something that is very difficult/nigh impossible to formally recreate in terms of time manipulation, but because despite that, it creates a coherent story which moves the entire TV series both forward and backwards through time via its narrative.
Yes, there's repetition. Yes, there's juxtaposition. Yes there's a lot of exposition. And yes they may seem redundant, but these are entirely the point. Dr Manhattan's perception is all of these things. And frankly, trying to create that effect means that some people's millage may vary. Some will feel it's too expository, some will think it doesn't move enough, others will say it's too hand holdy and others will say it moves too quickly. But there's no way to avoid that. The creators did an incredible job with the limitations (time, budget, medium) that were there to allow for a episode which makes sense of what came before it - and it was always going to be, somehow, too much of one thing to some, and not enough of the other, for others.
(Speaking of limitations, are people really expecting the SFX of a TV series - even one filmed just under 10 years later - to match that of a Zack Snyder movie? C'mon, now.)
I honestly went into this series wanting to hate it, for many reasons. Instead, it's turning out to be one of the most well crafted and brilliant TV series I've seen all year. The level of thought and thematic construction to mimic the comic has been staggering from start to finish.
wow.The bar Angela and M meet in is also the very same location that the Doc and Comedian quote took place in, further tying it all together.
