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Watchmen |OT| This is the Moment
- Thread starter Kenzodielocke
- Start date
The endgame of this series is about trying to stop a group of modern-day klansmen from using the powers of a god purely for the sake of tipping the scales of society to a place of (further) exclusive control by white men, so I don't really think white supremacy has dropped away from the story at all.
I do want some clarity though on exactly how Keene and Judd blurring the lines between masked cops and the 7K helps their plan. I get the metatextual point, but I'm unclear as to the actual narrative implications of it.
I do want some clarity though on exactly how Keene and Judd blurring the lines between masked cops and the 7K helps their plan. I get the metatextual point, but I'm unclear as to the actual narrative implications of it.
I can understand why there's a bit of confusion and frustration around the Dr Manhattan determinism paradox ("why did he stand in front of the teleporter if he knew he would be teleported?" Etc) - this is one of the many factors why Alan Moore and others consider the original series unfilmable.
Consider this page:
As a very small sample of the structure of the comic book series, Dr Manhattan sees the entire page in one go. As we do, as comic book readers. We perceive the time jump, the repetition, the transition between photo and Mars, the differences between the state of time where the photo was taken and where Jon is now, and his inner monologue which also leaps between chronology, all at once. Yes, we read it linearly, but we don't have to (which can be confusing - and thus the point). And once we finish the page, we can jump to any panel we wish without doing anything but moving our eyes, and also perceive the entire page as a whole.
Watchmen, the comic book series, is using this technique all the time (part of the reason why the 9 panel grid structure is so vital to it).
The reader acts as Dr Manhattan. Taking in the narrative, aware of it, but never being able to change it.
This is one of the unique structural constructions that comic books possess.
This chapter in the graphic novel/series uses this technique to allow the reader to understand what it's like to see the world through Jon's eyes - jumping around out of order. The comic book page allows us to understand it, but this is very, very difficult, if not impossible to recreate in the linear, time based medium of film. Some films use split screen (e.g Ang Lee's Hulk movie) but you can't linger on the screen with that in the same way you can with a comic book. Time, in comics, is both moving and frozen, whereas film has a run-time that inexorably keeps moving even if the frame is static. Any 'pause' is artificial.
Which is why this episode, for me, is phenomenal. Not because it fails to recreate something that is very difficult/nigh impossible to formally recreate in terms of time manipulation, but because despite that, it creates a coherent story which moves the entire TV series both forward and backwards through time via its narrative.
Yes, there's repetition. Yes, there's juxtaposition. Yes there's a lot of exposition. And yes they may seem redundant, but these are entirely the point. Dr Manhattan's perception is all of these things. And frankly, trying to create that effect means that some people's millage may vary. Some will feel it's too expository, some will think it doesn't move enough, others will say it's too hand holdy and others will say it moves too quickly. But there's no way to avoid that. The creators did an incredible job with the limitations (time, budget, medium) that were there to allow for a episode which makes sense of what came before it - and it was always going to be, somehow, too much of one thing to some, and not enough of the other, for others.
(Speaking of limitations, are people really expecting the SFX of a TV series - even one filmed just under 10 years later - to match that of a Zack Snyder movie? C'mon, now.)
I honestly went into this series wanting to hate it, for many reasons. Instead, it's turning out to be one of the most well crafted and brilliant TV series I've seen all year. The level of thought and thematic construction to mimic the comic has been staggering from start to finish.
Consider this page:
As a very small sample of the structure of the comic book series, Dr Manhattan sees the entire page in one go. As we do, as comic book readers. We perceive the time jump, the repetition, the transition between photo and Mars, the differences between the state of time where the photo was taken and where Jon is now, and his inner monologue which also leaps between chronology, all at once. Yes, we read it linearly, but we don't have to (which can be confusing - and thus the point). And once we finish the page, we can jump to any panel we wish without doing anything but moving our eyes, and also perceive the entire page as a whole.
Watchmen, the comic book series, is using this technique all the time (part of the reason why the 9 panel grid structure is so vital to it).
The reader acts as Dr Manhattan. Taking in the narrative, aware of it, but never being able to change it.
This is one of the unique structural constructions that comic books possess.
This chapter in the graphic novel/series uses this technique to allow the reader to understand what it's like to see the world through Jon's eyes - jumping around out of order. The comic book page allows us to understand it, but this is very, very difficult, if not impossible to recreate in the linear, time based medium of film. Some films use split screen (e.g Ang Lee's Hulk movie) but you can't linger on the screen with that in the same way you can with a comic book. Time, in comics, is both moving and frozen, whereas film has a run-time that inexorably keeps moving even if the frame is static. Any 'pause' is artificial.
Which is why this episode, for me, is phenomenal. Not because it fails to recreate something that is very difficult/nigh impossible to formally recreate in terms of time manipulation, but because despite that, it creates a coherent story which moves the entire TV series both forward and backwards through time via its narrative.
Yes, there's repetition. Yes, there's juxtaposition. Yes there's a lot of exposition. And yes they may seem redundant, but these are entirely the point. Dr Manhattan's perception is all of these things. And frankly, trying to create that effect means that some people's millage may vary. Some will feel it's too expository, some will think it doesn't move enough, others will say it's too hand holdy and others will say it moves too quickly. But there's no way to avoid that. The creators did an incredible job with the limitations (time, budget, medium) that were there to allow for a episode which makes sense of what came before it - and it was always going to be, somehow, too much of one thing to some, and not enough of the other, for others.
(Speaking of limitations, are people really expecting the SFX of a TV series - even one filmed just under 10 years later - to match that of a Zack Snyder movie? C'mon, now.)
I honestly went into this series wanting to hate it, for many reasons. Instead, it's turning out to be one of the most well crafted and brilliant TV series I've seen all year. The level of thought and thematic construction to mimic the comic has been staggering from start to finish.
I don't think this show does nearly as good a job with Veidt or Dr. Manhattan as the source material does. They seem more 'theatrical'.
Bseides that it feels like it's combining two stories worth telling in the 'Watchmen' universe. A police force being inspired by vigilantism and fighting a terrorist group inspired in the same way, and amore direct sequel of the core cast and their relationship with the world. To me those two solid ideas have been smashed together.
Bseides that it feels like it's combining two stories worth telling in the 'Watchmen' universe. A police force being inspired by vigilantism and fighting a terrorist group inspired in the same way, and amore direct sequel of the core cast and their relationship with the world. To me those two solid ideas have been smashed together.
They don't paint Angela as strictly "good" at all. She's painted as a very fucked up person. She seeks a god-man for stability, believing she can't have a family. She becomes a cop because of her tragedy when she was young. She's a vigilante who doles out her own extrajudicial justice all the time, the first episode even paralleling that with Rorschak from the original. She knows who hung Judd and basically hides him for her own reasons. And on top of that the show parallels her being a cop to her grandfather being a cop and talks about the complexity of a person of color trying to exist within that system. The cops by and large aren't good either. They take the law into their own hands and are lead and used by racists.
Just saw the episode - loved it, but I understand the complaints about Jon stepping in front of the "redneck laser" (😄) <It looked to be controlled remotely, right? I don't think another 7thKal guy just came out of nowhere and fired it?>
I would say, everyone should just wait for the final episode. There's a good chance Jon see's the future past this point of getting hit by the laser, and that path forward is "preferable" to some ultimate unspoken goal of his.
I would say, everyone should just wait for the final episode. There's a good chance Jon see's the future past this point of getting hit by the laser, and that path forward is "preferable" to some ultimate unspoken goal of his.
Think about what he was doing before he met Angela. He created life, and that was immensely unsatisfying for him. Blind devotion to a creator is not the life that fascinates him. Look at the original and how he takes about the miracle of Laurie. He was never going to create life like that. It'd never be a miracle to him, but Angela is.
What about him fucking Janey, Laurie, and Angela all at the same time?
Quoting this because this seems exactly right.
LOL at folks who say it's lazy writing, though. The entire episode works because of how well this concept is written into the character and his surroundings. It could have easily fallen apart, but IMO, it doesn't.
I can understand why there's a bit of confusion and frustration around the Dr Manhattan determinism paradox ("why did he stand in front of the teleporter if he knew he would be teleported?" Etc) - this is one of the many factors why Alan Moore and others consider the original series unfilmable.
Consider this page:
As a very small sample of the structure of the comic book series, Dr Manhattan sees the entire page in one go. As we do, as comic book readers. We perceive the time jump, the repetition, the transition between photo and Mars, the differences between the state of time where the photo was taken and where Jon is now, and his inner monologue which also leaps between chronology, all at once. Yes, we read it linearly, but we don't have to (which can be confusing - and thus the point). And once we finish the page, we can jump to any panel we wish without doing anything but moving our eyes, and also perceive the entire page as a whole.
Watchmen, the comic book series, is using this technique all the time (part of the reason why the 9 panel grid structure is so vital to it).
The reader acts as Dr Manhattan. Taking in the narrative, aware of it, but never being able to change it.
This is one of the unique structural constructions that comic books possess.
This chapter in the graphic novel/series uses this technique to allow the reader to understand what it's like to see the world through Jon's eyes - jumping around out of order. The comic book page allows us to understand it, but this is very, very difficult, if not impossible to recreate in the linear, time based medium of film. Some films use split screen (e.g Ang Lee's Hulk movie) but you can't linger on the screen with that in the same way you can with a comic book. Time, in comics, is both moving and frozen, whereas film has a run-time that inexorably keeps moving even if the frame is static. Any 'pause' is artificial.
Which is why this episode, for me, is phenomenal. Not because it fails to recreate something that is very difficult/nigh impossible to formally recreate in terms of time manipulation, but because despite that, it creates a coherent story which moves the entire TV series both forward and backwards through time via its narrative.
Yes, there's repetition. Yes, there's juxtaposition. Yes there's a lot of exposition. And yes they may seem redundant, but these are entirely the point. Dr Manhattan's perception is all of these things. And frankly, trying to create that effect means that some people's millage may vary. Some will feel it's too expository, some will think it doesn't move enough, others will say it's too hand holdy and others will say it moves too quickly. But there's no way to avoid that. The creators did an incredible job with the limitations (time, budget, medium) that were there to allow for a episode which makes sense of what came before it - and it was always going to be, somehow, too much of one thing to some, and not enough of the other, for others.
(Speaking of limitations, are people really expecting the SFX of a TV series - even one filmed just under 10 years later - to match that of a Zack Snyder movie? C'mon, now.)
I honestly went into this series wanting to hate it, for many reasons. Instead, it's turning out to be one of the most well crafted and brilliant TV series I've seen all year. The level of thought and thematic construction to mimic the comic has been staggering from start to finish.
I don't think it just this episode that's structured this way. The whole season's been doing this in some ways, I don't see the 'present' storyline fighting against the 7th Cavalry being more important than that of Will's past or LG's past or whatever. By the end of next week's episode, we can go back and forth and rewatch whatever scene we want like we're Jon. That's what feels different about this series to me, the past treated with equal weight as the present and it's all from very personal, character focused viewpoints.
I'm curious myself. I thought he killed everyone, especially the man controlling the laser.
Edit: Oh fuck, just realized that Dr. Manhattan was making waffles and eggs for Angela. Eggs so he can most likely transfer his powers to her, and she just smashes the eggs. :(
He definitely killed someone controlling the laser and I didn't see anyone in the last bit when he was shot.
Note that she was going to book him until her car disappeared in the sky. At that point, I guess it became a matter of "they won't believe me", and later "crap, the car is back, and I guess the time window during which I could have told my colleagues the truth is now closed".
It's just a bit of an awkward situation, actually.
Angela shot him but didn't kill him and he got up and used it.
The point is that she didn't take him in immediately.
Ohhhhh Angela shot him. Alright, then that just reinforces to her that she can't change Manhattan's future no matter how she fights. I need to rewatch that part.
OP
OP
When making food, he says "there are more important matters to discuss" before she goes out killing them. Who knows lol.
But yeah, I do see someone man the laser. There's a Rorschach mask that pops up before the laser is shot. Funny how Jon obilerated Rorschach, and now Rorschachs are repaying the favor.
Here's the scene for second viewing:
And she left an old guy in a wheelchair alone and cuffed in her Batcave for an entire day.
"Wait, how did you get out of those cuffs?"
Well, I don't know but it sure is a good thing he did, Angela, you piece of shit.
I wonder what the intent of having Dr.M pretend to be black and hooded justice be white means, like the creator's greater meaning to it
Posts like this are a boring cop out. The writers predetermined Dr M's fate, so we can't call out when it's extremely stupid?
A little confused about Adrian's timeline -- so Jon sends him to Europa in 2009, where he's been for seven years now considering the birthday cake candles. But that would mean for Adrian it's 2016 then, right? And put him three years behind the rest of the action...although would the orbital difference between Earth and Jupiter mean they're still relatively aligned even if Adrian has only experienced seven years?
I find it funny how, when shit happens, it's explained away as 'God works in mysterious ways'.
But the moment we put a face and voice on 'God' we are all like 'we don't you do this? Why you did it this way? It doesn't make since that you did it this way'.
But the moment we put a face and voice on 'God' we are all like 'we don't you do this? Why you did it this way? It doesn't make since that you did it this way'.
There should be no (significant) time dilation. You really need impossible speeds or masses for this to become an actual factor.
EDIT: Ah, wait, perhaps you were just thinking of the possibility that Veidt's birthdays are based on the time it takes Jupiter to make a complete orbit? The "Adrian has only experienced" bit threw me off... And yes, like Neoweee said, that wouldn't work.
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Well Dr. Manhattan pretended to be black because that's what Angela was comfortable with. The meaning behind it may just be that to the outside world filled with racism a black woman out with a white or Vietnamese man would likely be just as eye catching as walking around with a blue man.
Hooded Justice pretended to be white because concealing that was the safer option for what he was doing. The history of a black pioneer doing something that would be taken largely by white people is a pretty big phenomenon to explore outside of that, too.
Ayy lmao. Panda argues with Red Scare in episode 5 saying that Dr. Manhattan is Hooded Justice
Lindelooooooooooooooooooooooooooof
It is definitely counting regular Earth years. If it were Jupter years, Veidt would be like 160 Earth years old. 12:1 orbital periods.
I want to know how there seems to be an illusory barrier between the estate and the rest of the moon. Also, they are never going to explain how it has normal gravity.
it doesnt have to be a story in present time. Every episode contains what happens to Veidt in a year at Europa.
I hope the last episode gets to have a banger like NUN WITH A MOTHERF*&*ING GUN or any of the few others we've already heard.
I think at this point we should consider we're seeing the last of Veidt in Europa... since he needs time to travel from there back to Earth (maybe to land in that farm Trieu bought). I don't think he's getting teleported by Jon this time.
I think at this point we should consider we're seeing the last of Veidt in Europa... since he needs time to travel from there back to Earth (maybe to land in that farm Trieu bought). I don't think he's getting teleported by Jon this time.
Jon was probably what landed on the land Lady Trieu bought several years back and is the gold statue at her company
Using the same voice reinforces that this is the same person and that it's also all happening right now.
Well we know for Reeves it was that society wouldnt accept a black man as a masked vigilante the same way as they would a white man.
As for Manhattan, despite Angela and him both saying amy form would suffice, there is a level of "normalcy" in a relationship being two black people as opposed to a mixed couple, when even today the views on it are still pretty fucked. I think subconsciously Angela knew that, which is why she held off on showing the Cal body (and Manhattan already knowing how it plays out, knows she hadn't shown him all the options). It could also be a comfort/preference thing for Angela, since all shenoriginally showed were (what apperared to be) white men.
Lindelof has said though that Adrian's story will overlap with the main one by the end of the show, so I'm expecting him to appear back on Earth in the present. Of course it doesn't have to play out that way, but assuming that was what he meant, then following the one episode/one year rule, that would mean by next episode it's only 2017 for Adrian.
No, because it's exactly how it was in the comic. The writers are using the Dr. M rules set out in Moore's universe and they do it faithfully.
As stated earlier on this page, picture the multi panel comic, each with different events. Look at them at once or jump around. They have all already happened and are happening when you read them. That's how Dr. M perceives time. He can't change what has already happened.
Was Dr Manhattan doing stupid shit just because he was meant to, in the comic book?
That was explained by his growing disinterest in human beings.
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Killing a bunch of guys and then letting himself get captured for no good reason other than that it was "written in the stars".
(Yes, there's an episode left, he might have a good reason to do all that, but see what I'm replying to.)
Agreed - I was talking more that this episode is acting as a direct analogue to the Dr Manhattan chapter of the book, but you're right, like the source material the entire series plays with the narrative construct of time.
I'm super impressed that Lindelof went this route, to be honest. There's a level of thought to structure and narrative, binding with theme and characters that apes Watchmen so well, but it's incredibly difficult to pull off. The show really gets it.