Watching the Injustice movie, it dawned on me why I'm tired of Evil!Superman

crimsonECHIDNA · Jul 30, 2022

So I had to house sit for my sister today and ended up watching the Injustice movie on HBO with my nephew. I know it was already a maligned adaptation of the games, but I decided to finally watch it for myself. I think it was during the duration of the movie that it finally clicked with me why I dislike the Evil!Superman trope, at least specifically from DC itself. Without fail, its always used as a soapbox to show how Batman always has the moral high ground.

And that alone wouldn't bother me, but then I saw this scene:

Which out of context doesn't seem like a big deal, but within the context of the movie:

Harley helped Joker fucking nuke Metropolis at the start of the movie. Unlike in the comics, there is no heel realization for Harley, she joins the good guys because she wants to get revenge for Superman killing Joker. Hell, Wonder Woman was literally Superman's partner in crime throughout the entire movie, only has a final last-second change of heart because Superman killed some teenagers who were stanning for the Joker.

So yeah, Batman's "Moral Guideline" really comes across as he's willing to compromise for whoever's willing to fall in line to his beliefs.

Fuck you Batman, Regime!Superman did nothing wrong.

mbpm · Jul 30, 2022

Hadn't thought of that.

Maybe it'd be more interesting if Batman and Supes fell together then?

Rosebud · Jul 30, 2022

But Batman is better anyway

LauraLaMer · Jul 30, 2022

mbpm said:
Hadn't thought of that.

Maybe it'd be more interesting if Batman and Supes fell together then?

Batwank has made it so that if Batman ever falls to the dark side he becomes the ultimate biggest villain to ever threat the multiverse.

BWoog · Jul 30, 2022

Injustice had some decent stuff in it, but it also had some ridiculous bullshit like Dick Grayson tripping and dying because he hit his head on a rock.

mbpm · Jul 30, 2022

LauraLaMer said:
Batwank has made it so that if Batman ever falls to the dark side he becomes the ultimate biggest villain to ever threat the multiverse.

You mean the Batman who laughs stuff? Yeah that is a bit silly.

Digital Dinosaur · Jul 30, 2022

Well, evil superman can be trite and boring for a lot of reasons. But this just sounds like an awful adaptation of Injustice that only creates new issues.

Genesius · Jul 30, 2022

Batman really needs to get put in check. This whole "plan for everything, completely unstoppable" phase was fun, but I'm so over absolutely everything DC related having to fluff up Batman to make sure he still looks cool.

RedVejigante · Jul 30, 2022

The Evil Superman trope bugs me just because its creatively such low-hanging fruit by this point. Stories about how super-hero comics universal symbol of hope is actually just a secret facist asshole if given the right motivation has become such a boring concept that tells us nothing interesting about the character or his world. Pure cynicism for cynicism sake.

The Injustice universe in particular bothers me because it manages to assassinate Diana's character along with Clark's.

Digital Dinosaur · Jul 30, 2022

Genesius said:
Batman really needs to get put in check. This whole "plan for everything, completely unstoppable" phase was fun, but I'm so over absolutely everything DC related having to fluff up Batman to make sure he still looks cool.

We need to see the current Batman comic status quo reflected in other media. Comic spoilers:

He essentially loses access to the company funds for Batman activities in order to keep the government from coming after Bruce Wayne. He's definitely shown to be less omniscient without his global networks and an infinite money to put together a novel solution to every problem.

crimsonECHIDNA · Jul 30, 2022

RedVejigante said:
The Injustice universe in particular bothers me because it manages to assassinate Diana's character along with Clark's.

Yeah I notice it's always kind of messed up how often these stories reduce Wonder Woman to simping over Dictator!Superman.

Interesting how both this movie and the Red Son movie went out of their way to either downplay or remove it entirely. lol

deimosmasque · Jul 30, 2022

Evil Superman has always been boring.

Yes I mean Homelander too.

Evil Superman always misses the point of Superman.

mbpm · Jul 30, 2022

I think there's still room for evil supermen. For example, making them more eldritch like the Supergod comic.

The way they do it now is boring though

Kid Heart · Jul 30, 2022

What annoys me personally with a lot of these evil Superman stories is that the writers add this undertone that Batman's cynicism prepares him for humanity's worst and allows him to soldier on in spite of it, while Superman's optimism somehow leaves him naive and vulnerable to cracking once humanity's darkside rears its' ugly ahead. It reeks to me of cynical people writing Superman who don't actually understand Superman. He's an investigative reporter for god's sake, he's well aware of how bad people can be.

KtotheRoc · Jul 30, 2022

They're always trying to recreate The Dark Knight Returns.

Man God · Jul 30, 2022

Evil Superman is just every villain, that's why its boring.

I also saw Injustice this week and didn't really like it. It's like they were setting up for Kingdom Come but then read the script for the Justice Lords episode of the animated series.

Also Flash gets killed in the most hilarious way possible.

Genesius · Jul 30, 2022

deimosmasque said:
Evil Superman has always been boring.

Yes I mean Homelander too.

Evil Superman always misses the point of Superman.

At least Homelander and company are presented as direct metaphors for celebrity and capitalism worship, things like that. They've never really been traditional heroes.

Superman being made evil is just because some writer can't imagine a character being genuinely good and caring and kind and letting their cynicism bleed into something established because they are literally incapable of writing an unironic Superman.

Calvinien · Jul 30, 2022

crimsonECHIDNA said:
So I had to house sit for my sister today and ended up watching the Injustice movie on HBO with my nephew. I know it was already a maligned adaptation of the games, but I decided to finally watch it for myself. I think it was during the duration of the movie that it finally clicked with me why I dislike the Evil!Superman trope, at least specifically from DC itself. Without fail, its always used as a soapbox to show how Batman always has the moral high ground.

And that alone wouldn't bother me, but then I saw this scene:

Which out of context doesn't seem like a big deal, but within the context of the movie:

Harley helped Joker fucking nuke Metropolis at the start of the movie. Unlike in the comics, there is no heel realization for Harley, she joins the good guys because she wants to get revenge for Superman killing Joker. Hell, Wonder Woman was literally Superman's partner in crime throughout the entire movie, only has a final last-second change of heart because Superman killed some teenagers who were stanning for the Joker.

So yeah, Batman's "Moral Guideline" really comes across as he's willing to compromise for whoever's willing to fall in line to his beliefs.

Fuck you Batman, Regime!Superman did nothing wrong.

It gets worse in the games, In Injustice 2 there's literally a point where they have the chance to bring millions of people back from the dead if they kill brainiac and use his tech. Batman is against it. He's treated like a hero for it. I have had the exact same gripe about evil superman stories as you. They exist as a mechanism to make batman into an even better author insert/mary sue than he already is.

I maintain that a large part of the dislike of BVS has to do with the movie very plainly being on superman's side and showing how batman is the far more likely of the two to go off the deep end.

Also, Harley Quinn increasingly gets a pass on shitty behaviour because she's cute. The DCAU had her unambiguously a villain, but still humanized her. The arkham games make no bones that she's a terrible person. But so much modern harley material tries to white wash her crimes. Arguably she's a worse person than the joker. He had to lose his family, traumatized by batman, horribly disfigured all in one day to lose his mind. Harley just got horny. Joker may be more destructive but he so far gone he doens't really have a choice. Harley CAN be better and still does terrible things.

Stalker · Jul 30, 2022

deimosmasque said:
Evil Superman has always been boring.

Yes I mean Homelander too.

Evil Superman always misses the point of Superman.

I don't think it's trying to be Superman but evil it's just a vehicle to tell a story about an out of control powered character who no one can stop realistically.

Homelander is interesting because he's fucked up on a mental level
Omni-Man is interesting because he's initially fucked up but he redeems himself
Injustice Superman is dull because it's just regular superman who has snapped and figured he can take over everything "for peace" it's a tired story. The villain is really trying to save everyone the wrong way trope.

RedVejigante · Jul 30, 2022

crimsonECHIDNA said:
Yeah I notice it's always kind of messed up how often these stories reduce Wonder Woman to simping over Dictator!Superman.

Interesting how both this movie and the Red Son movie went out of their way to either downplay or remove it entirely. lol

Oh yeah, by the end of Injustice 2's story mode I was really annoyed that they not only decided to double-down on the idea that Wonder Woman is apparantly more into Superman the more of an asshole he becomes, but even going so far as to imply that she's basically the primary reason he was "corrupted".

deimosmasque said:
Evil Superman has always been boring.

Yes I mean Homelander too.

Evil Superman always misses the point of Superman.

So does The Boys show depiction of Homelander improve on the character at all? I read the comics but havent seen the show. Everyone seems to rave about Homelander in the Amazon series but I always found the character in the comics to be a typically shallow Ennis deconstruction of superheros; people with power will be bad because people are inherently bad. Unless your the kind of person with power that Ennis likes. Then you're a super bad-ass who the rest of us peons should just trust to do the right thing.

KtotheRoc said:
They're always trying to recreate The Dark Knight Returns.

Which is funny since you could certainly argue that Dark Knight Returns is a paen to Batman at his most fascist.

Professor Beef · Jul 30, 2022

RedVejigante said:
Everyone seems to rave about Homelander in the Amazon series but I always found the character in the comics to be a typically shallow Ennis deconstruction of superheros; people with power will be bad because people are inherently bad.

i think it's more that people rave about how good a job his actor does, rather than what Homelander the character is actually doing

and I agree, he's doing a great job

KtotheRoc · Jul 30, 2022

RedVejigante said:
So does The Boys show depiction of Homelander improve on the character at all? I read the comics but havent seen the show. Everyone seems to rave about Homelander in the Amazon series but I always found the character in the comics to be a typically shallow Ennis deconstruction of superheros; people with power will be bad because people are inherently bad. Unless your the kind of person with power that Ennis likes. Then you're a super bad-ass who the rest of us peons should just trust to do the right thing.

The show is absolutely better than the comics. Homelander absolutely is still a piece of shit, but I would argue it carries more weight in the context of the show.

Nali · Jul 30, 2022

If I didn't have any context, I'd guess that screenshot was of a Teen Titans Go parody scene.

Punch_Rockgroin · Jul 30, 2022

Genesius said:
Batman really needs to get put in check. This whole "plan for everything, completely unstoppable" phase was fun, but I'm so over absolutely everything DC related having to fluff up Batman to make sure he still looks cool.

Agreed. I think that's why I liked the Batman so much. Bruce felt like an actual person who missed things and made mistakes. He was a good enough detective but not perfect. Some have argued, a little shitty.

I say this as more of a contrast to the meme, prep time Batman that could kill Jehovah with a pencil and a plushie. Other live action movies don't present Batman as annoyingly all-knowing as the animated movies do.

Arkanim94 · Jul 30, 2022

batman moralizing other people is very strange.

Kewlmyc · Jul 30, 2022

Yeah, comparing Comic Homelander to Show Homelander is night and day.

Genesius · Jul 30, 2022

Kewlmyc said:
Yeah, comparing Comic Homelander to Show Homelander is night and day.

It truly is. It's almost a shame the show is based off of such a shitty comic, because the show is fucking amazing.

Alpheus · Jul 30, 2022

Batman is at his best when he knows he's flawed and human because it underscores how he works against himself to be Batman. He's a broken human being that forces himself to try and function and that part of his character doesn't hit as hard as it does if he isn't shown failing or not being adequate to meet certain moments, from time to time.

AWestCoastDirtyBird · Jul 30, 2022

Comic IJ Wonder Woman was the real villain of the series imo. She basically played puppet master and was a psychopath

Alpheus · Jul 30, 2022

AWestCoastDirtyBird said:
Comic IJ Wonder Woman was the real villain of the series imo. She basically played puppet master and was a psychopath

lol damn

Digital Dinosaur · Jul 30, 2022

Upon reflection the best way to do evil Superman has always been having another character represent Superman without Clark's morality, and play Superman off them. Rather than come up with excuses for a person like Clark Kent to go insane and become diabolically evil.

HStallion · Jul 30, 2022

mbpm said:
I think there's still room for evil supermen. For example, making them more eldritch like the Supergod comic.

The way they do it now is boring though

I want to bring up a story that tackles things in this manner but it's a massive spoiler to even name it.

Ruisu · Jul 30, 2022

This is not a evil superman problem, this is a "this was a hyper rushed movie adaptation that tried to cram a huge character arc into 90 minutes of screentime"

Ultratech · Jul 30, 2022

Ruisu said:
This is not a evil superman problem, this is a "this was a hyper rushed movie adaptation that tried to cram a huge character arc into 90 minutes of screentime"

Pretty much; it's a bastardization of the comics which skips over a lot of stuff and changes some of it for the worst.

In the comics, Superman's turn is a bit more gradual before going into full dictator mode. And it does a better job of showing how flawed both sides are.

Like Batman is still all holier than thou in the comics, but it also makes it a point to show how flawed he is because of that.

AWestCoastDirtyBird said:
Comic IJ Wonder Woman was the real villain of the series imo. She basically played puppet master and was a psychopath

Pretty much and the games more or less confirm that as well, as she manipulates Supes into doing stuff that'd he have reservations about but she'd manage to convince him to do.
(Of course, it's worth mentioning that IJ WW is fairly different than the regular one; The comic had a neat little story about her and Steve Trevor where he washes up on the island, only to find out that he lied to and manipulated her and he just happened to be a Nazi spy. So she ends up killing him as a result.)

Pikachu Statue · Jul 30, 2022

One of the main reasons that "Evil Superman" is a little silly, is that an evil guy who is extremely physically powerful, can shoot lasers, etc. is the same thing as every other ultimate supervillain, like Thanos or whatever.

The only extra fun you get out of Evil Superman is (1.) the shock value of the Superman imagery being used in a different way, or (2.) making a universe where the public believes Evil Superman is good.

(1.) has no lasting appeal, but (2.) can work. But if you're going to do (2.), why not just have a universe where the public believes Thanos is good? That sounds equally interesting to me.

Cocamantis · Jul 30, 2022

That movie is a disgrace. Don't sweat on the details and just move on, you'll be fine.

Dodongo · Jul 30, 2022

Injustice was really bad.

mbpm · Jul 30, 2022

HStallion said:
I want to bring up a story that tackles things in this manner but it's a massive spoiler to even name it.

If it's out there and good I wouldn't mind knowing it

HustleBun · Jul 30, 2022

The Injustice movie is horrendous. The comics and the game had a really engaging story but the movie decided to make up an original story, and it's not a good one.

onyx · Jul 30, 2022

Tired the same evil Superman.

I want an evil Superman that's still has the boy scout image in public and around other heroes, but is actually the biggest crime boss on the planet.
The Kent's were into all shorts of crimes but had a squeaky clean public image. They raised Clark to take over and expand the family business.

Detective Batman finds out and starts to dismantle the criminal organization.

Uniomni · Jul 30, 2022

BWoog said:
Injustice had some decent stuff in it, but it also had some ridiculous bullshit like Dick Grayson tripping and dying because he hit his head on a rock.

That plus my guy Shazam having a hole burned into his brain via heat vision.

Since when did the Marvel's have the durability of acorns?

Roliq · Jul 30, 2022

God that movie sucked so much, one of the worst things is how the Flash dies in a dumb way and then no one even acknowledges him ever again

Watching the Injustice movie, it dawned on me why I'm tired of Evil!Superman

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