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ThisIsBlitz21

Member
Oct 22, 2018
4,662
I'll preface this by saying I think Ubisoft's games often get an underserved bad rap, they can make some quality shit, like this game's predecessor, Watch Dogs 2, which is one of the most well-crafted sandboxes I've ever set foot in.

The main hook of watch dogs legion is the ability to recruit anyone off the street into your rebellion crew, in essence, being able to play as "anyone". Pre-release, I was quite hyped for this release, this sort of gimmick seemed like a perfect fit for watch dogs and the gameplay possibilities could've been endless.

As it turns out, I think the mechanic not only doesn't bring many strengths to the table, it also really hurts the experience as a whole significantly. The people on the streets have a daily routine before they're recruited, after that they're just another lifeless robot with zero personality whatsoever. The story suffers because whichever operative you choose will speak the exact same lines any cutscenes. Even in gameplay different characters don't vary enough. Often times a rando on the street and a trained hitman will have the exact same capability with guns. But at the exact same time, no character will have the full arsenal of tools, either. The story suffers because the lack of a fixed character, and often times it's really jarring to see ultra serious story beats take place, only to transition to your goofy crew of nutjobs that are so poorly voice acted that's it's funny. WD1 or 2 didn't have a story to right home about, but at least you're playing as somebody. In Legion, despite what the back of the box says, in reality, you're playing as nobody. Some things that I may have expected to take advantage of the system (like taking multiple operatives to single objective and have them tackle it from different angles) aren't there. The recruitment missions get quite cumbersome fast, as well.

You know, the fact that they sorta screwed up with the "recruit anyone" system isn't as surprising as this next point, since that was a really risky endeavor (and one that I commend Ubisoft for, even if it feel flat on it's face).

What's worse is, for some reason, the hacking in this game feels inexplicably stripped back from Watch Dogs 2. I have no idea what Ubisoft were thinking here, the so-called masters of copy and paste design couldn't carry those mechanics over? Just a few things that I noticed missing we're traffic light hacks, blackouts, blowing up steam pipes, and calling the cops or gangs on random people on the street. This might seem like pointless stuff to be complaining about, but so much of what made Watch Dogs 2 so unique for me was it's systems driven emergent gameplay in it's open world, and how far you can take it with your creativity. That game also a slick UI and presentation with it's phone integration, all replaced in Legion by generic menus. Previously present interiors, such as for clothing shops are now missing. You don't really feel a meaningful sense of progression due to recruiting mechanic, you only earn gadgets upgrades, and no upgrades for the actual character.

I want to touch on a couple positives here, I think the London open-world is very well done. And I enjoyed just driving and checking out all the famous landmarks in the game. Infiltrating buildings is still quite fun and you still have a good number of options at your disposal (despite not being as extensive as the WD2).

As a whole though, the game doesn't know what it's what's to be. The first game was a grimdark revenge tale, and a surprisingly good third person shooter with the hacking as set dressing. The second game was about light hearted group of hackers taking down an evil megacorp, with the hacking taking center stage in the experience.

Legion sorta takes a bit a both and is set in a near future, almost Cyberpunk-ish London, and is about building a crew that can take down authoritarian regime that has an iron grip on the city. but it's gunplay isn't as a good as the first, hacking is stripped back from the second game, and has zero consistency with it's tone and narrative. It's like the multiple teams in charge of different aspects of this game barely communicated during production, and as a result we got this frankenstein mess of a game in our hands.

Thoughts?
 
Jun 20, 2021
4,903
My biggest issue with it was that I never felt I had an avatar in that world, someone who was my gateway into that world.

To paraphrase Syndrome, "if you can play as everybody, you play as nobody". I struggled to get attached to the world because I was looking at a city, not myself in that city.

It was a fascinating idea but I just don't think it worked as well as it should have.
 

Mechaplum

Enlightened
Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,848
JP
Setting is interesting and and has a lot of potential however the gameplay just isn't for me. I spent more time trying to look for security cameras and waiting on timers than actually getting stuff done. Story was a non starter out the gates.

W.r.t. the legion thing, I think they'd be better served just focusing on a party of characters like in WD2 but make everybody in it playable with upgrades etc. As it is they spread themselves way too thin, like vegemite on toast.
 

bottledfox

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
1,577
It's a game I enjoyed my time with despite its many, many flaws. But it was my first WD game and I didn't come in with the expectations someone who played WD2 would have.
 

Hoggle

Member
Mar 25, 2021
6,116
Ubisoft games are weird in that you'd think they'd have this amazing emergent gameplay given the size of the worlds and the type of games they make, but everything is also so stiff and janky it never really works out.

I wish they'd go back to tighter narrative focussed titles and spend some money on decent writers/directors. Instead they just keep adding more and more gameplay mechanics to their games but that's leading to less and less polish.
 

CloseTalker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,815
It has some high notes, I find the gadgets and some of the core gameplay to be the best in the series. It's a fun playground to fuck around in. But the setting is pretty bland compared to San Fran, and the core concept just isn't very strong. The play as anyone concept is interesting in theory, but as many people have pointed out, it eventually does the game a disservice.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
116,045
Setting is interesting and and has a lot of potential however the gameplay just isn't for me. I spent more time trying to look for security cameras and waiting on timers than actually getting stuff done. Story was a non starter out the gates.

W.r.t. the legion thing, I think they'd be better served just focusing on a party of characters like in WD2 but make everybody in it playable with upgrades etc. As it is they spread themselves way too thin, like vegemite on toast.

Yup. So much of the game just seems to be waiting around for an enemy to be near a hackable trap.

The combat sucks, which makes it worse. Because it's so easy to die and a character running out of HP is a huge penalty, there's really no viable alternative to playing ULTRA safe.
 

Tengrave

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
900
This sounds awful. I really enjoyed Watch Dogs 2. I miss that invasion multiplayer mode. Every time I see this on sale I think about it, but hearing this puts me off
 

digitalrelic

Weight Loss Champion 2018: Biggest Change
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,124
I'm just so, so, sooooo over the Ubisoft formula. Watch Dogs, Far Cry, Assassin's Creed, Immortals Fenyx Rising, Ghost Recon, For Honor, you name it.

"Ubisoft Original" just means I can safely ignore it at this point.
 

Deleted member 11637

Oct 27, 2017
18,204
That sucks to hear, I was so excited by the concept for the game.
 

hog

Member
Mar 9, 2021
1,031
It's a much less fun game than 2 was. I think the geography of London is too compact and it means all the encounters are playing out in tiny closed spaces instead of the sprawling campuses and stuff you'd get in 2. Writing was awful in this one too.

The city itself is really cool though, and the play as anyone sandbox is fun to play around in. I don't agree with your totally negative take on that feature, I think it was a neat and reasonably well executed thing to build a game around even if it's not something I'd want in every game.

I still have an overall positive experience but I think a lot of that is because I live in London and got to see my city replicated so well.
 

GlitchyDegree

Prophet of Truth
The Fallen
Dec 4, 2017
5,503
Honestly, it's my game of the year so far (I know it came out last October, but I played it in January) I agree with a lot of your complaints and understand the disappointment, but I loved building my team and going on missions. Heck, I'm currently on my forth playthrough of the game. I do agree that the story sucks, but that honestly didn't bother me.

I still consider Watch Dogs 2 a better game, but I put Legion way above the first game.

EDIT: The online mode sucks though, just bring back invasions Ubisoft.
 

thediamondage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,324
i wonder how it sold and what Ubisoft thinks of the sales numbers. This is the first time ever I have not bought a cycle of Ubisoft games at launch, I just hit a severe fatigue point after spending like a year each finishing AC Origins and AC odyssey and I'm honestly in no rush to buy and play WD Legions, AC Valhalla, or Fenyx Immortal.

The year+ break though from "the ubi formula" has me pretty stoked for Far Cry 6, but after that I'm not sure i'll want to play another ubi game again for a year. I almost bought and started playing AC Valhalla recently but realized if I did that I probably won't want to play FC6 for a while, I wonder if other people feel like me.
 

Pankratous

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,281
The "play as anybody" garbage gimmick was never going to work for me. I need an established character.
 

hog

Member
Mar 9, 2021
1,031
As a side note I do not understand the perspective some people have that this is the same old Ubisoft formula. Like I get that people have come to dislike that company. But Legion is actually a highly experimental and ambitious game, even if it flops in a lot of ways. And I think people ought to at least recognise that.
 

jobrro

The Fallen
Nov 19, 2017
1,626
I was a big fan of WD and WD2 and I honestly had doubts as soon as they started showing Legion. I predicted the play as anyone mechanic would not be fun for me personally.

Ended up getting it anyway for cheap in some bundle on PS5 with AC Valhalla.

Everything just so of...was. It was mediocre as hell. I did somewhat enjoy hovering around the city even if it was slow, that was probably the highlight for me.

I hope it isn't the end of the series and they go back to something like WD2.
 

mojo

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,983
The characters were what I loved about the last game so ubisoft decided to remove all the characters lol
 

Tandemo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
151
Terrible game.

I bought it full price and digital and it's burned me from ever buying an Ubisoft game again.

I quite liked watch dogs 1, liked watch dogs 2 alright, but absolutely loathed legion.

It's such a horribly dour and cynical game.
The amount of damn drone piloting sent me crazy.

And that voice acting, everyone sounds like they're from Coronation Street or a Carry On film. Such a step back from the mostly great cast of 2.
 

Ciao

Member
Jun 14, 2018
4,878
Each time a thread about WD Legion pops up, I'm intrigued by the opinions saying WD2 is legit good. I really should get it someday. Ubisoft open world games are so sterile and bland since Assassin's Creed 1, I have a hard time imagining a genuine good game from that AAA factory, but I want to believe!
 

Lionheart

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,849
I got about 80% through and was playing on permedeath mode, for some reason i thought i had guys in my reserve but i lost my last guy (couldn'tbe bothered to recruit more peeps) and then the game ended and it overwrites your save…

i went to download my old save from the cloud but accidentally synced the new save so i completely lost my progress.

regarding the actual game, I'm bored with the heavy heavy focus on hacking. I didn't love WD1 but it had way better shootouts and chases and more ambition. If they kept building on it they could have had a sick game by now that exceeded the original trailer
 
OP
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ThisIsBlitz21

Member
Oct 22, 2018
4,662
I also hope this doesnt spell the end of the series. There's so much potential in Watch Dogs' concept that it would be a shame to see it go. I still don't think "play as anyone" is a totally bad idea, but there has to be better ways to go about in the future. Either build upon the foundations until it's something that can truly carry an entire game, or have a supplementary piece in a game with a few defined protagonists.

I just want to see more of this franchise, either way
 

Kupo Kupopo

Member
Jul 6, 2019
2,959
The main hook of watch dogs legion is the ability to recruit anyone off the street into your rebellion crew, in essence, being able to play as "anyone". Pre-release, I was quite hyped for this release, this sort of gimmick seemed like a perfect fit for watch dogs and the gameplay possibilities could've been endless.

As it turns out, I think the mechanic not only doesn't bring many strengths to the table, it also really hurts the experience as a whole significantly...

really disagree. my protagonist was a middle-aged black cockney dominatrix, a character unlike any i've ever played a game as, & i had a great time enjoying/cracking up over her commentary throughout. she was so much fun, i only ever switched out if i really had to...

i played watch dogs 2 immediately after, & far preferred my time with legion...
 
Oct 27, 2017
305
unironically miss Aiden and his iconic hat. such a miserable fuck, but gelled with open world really well- could totally believe him as someone who'd abandoned his family to clear outposts and faff about
 

Praedyth

Member
Feb 25, 2020
6,539
Brazil
I'm a sucker for Ubisoft games and just like you I think they get an undeserved bad rap. Sure you might think the company is trash, but some of their games can really show sometimes. That being said, I'll have to disagree with you OP.

As it turns out, I think the mechanic not only doesn't bring many strengths to the table, it also really hurts the experience as a whole significantly. The people on the streets have a daily routine before they're recruited, after that they're just another lifeless robot with zero personality whatsoever. The story suffers because whichever operative you choose will speak the exact same lines any cutscenes. Even in gameplay different characters don't vary enough.
See, I think the "play as anyone" mechanic sure have it's shortcomings but I think Ubisoft made it was best as they could without breaking the game. You can recruit anyone and their abilities are set in stone, that's good, no picking a good base character and maxing it out. Everyone has routines and life connections, that's much more than one could hope for on last gen (imo), you can even switch characters and they'll be doing their business. You can only get so many voices to be recorded and shipped in the game, some VAs are very good and some other VAs are over the top, but I think it's unfeasible to put all dialects there must be in London with different pitches, tones, etc. Even with all shortcomings, I was able to create a crew with decent voices and professions.
Often times a rando on the street and a trained hitman will have the exact same capability with guns.
Honestly, I can't weight in on your RNG for the game, but non-specialized characters (everyday people) rarely had non-letal weapons like a hitman or spy on my playthrough.
But at the exact same time, no character will have the full arsenal of tools, either.
That's for balancing purposes, the game design and the campaign itself clearly don't want you to push an overpowered character through everything.
The story suffers because the lack of a fixed character, and often times it's really jarring to see ultra serious story beats take place, only to transition to your goofy crew of nutjobs that are so poorly voice acted that's it's funny. WD1 or 2 didn't have a story to right home about, but at least you're playing as somebody. In Legion, despite what the back of the box says, in reality, you're playing as nobody. Some things that I may have expected to take advantage of the system (like taking multiple operatives to single objective and have them tackle it from different angles) aren't there.
This is where I disagree the most with you OP. The story was clearly tailor maded for this mechanic, you have an entire chapter devoted to SIRS-related stuff that you *can* play as a spy and he'll even make remarks when entering the SIRS/MI:6 buildings, just as an example. You also have missions that you can tackle differently, if you want to go guns blazing against the Clan Kelley maybe bring a hitman, if you want stealth consider a spy, if you want crazy shenanigans maybe try robbing the Bank of England with a Beekeper. These options are there for you to make sense of the story.

In that sense, this makes the thought of a fixed character a stone in the campaign shoes. Try playing everything with only one character and you'll think the game is awful (and the game probably deserves that because the only mission that really requires you to change characters is the last one). That's where I think WD: Legion surpasses WD1 and WD2 by far, the protagonist is not a hacking-killing machine, the protagonist is DedSec, a group of people from different backgrounds doing different things they do well to save the city. The perma-death mode exarcebates this even further because people can die.

The problem with Legion and its campaign and its mechanic is just one: the game never tells you're supposed to make a main cast. That's it, the games tells you can recruit anyone, the game tells you can do anything with anyone, but the game is supposed to be played with a main cast. Think WD2 but instead of Marcus being the one to do everything, the rest of the team could specialize in other stuff.

The story also gets pretty interesting on its own during Skye Larson's and SIRS chapters with really good endings. The Bagley epilogue is also really nice.
The recruitment missions get quite cumbersome fast, as well.
They wear off quickly, the game should push more on the spot recruiting, that's for sure.

I'll agree with you on other stuff like the hacking. Legion's characters feel really underpowered compared to Marcus, but I prefer that way. WD2 had me spamming drones and the little toy car to anything and everything, the gameplay was trivial. Stealth it's still easy on Legion, but more often than not you'll have to go yourself instead of rellying on drones.

All in all, I think Legion is a very good game and the best WD so far, but most people don't get what the game wants from them. That's a big flaw, players shouldn't be figuring out the best way to play the game. I really wish all could experience what I did with Legion's ending. Seeing my crew doing the last no-return missions and shutting Bagley down then doing the epilogue was very touching.
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,451
Each time a thread about WD Legion pops up, I'm intrigued by the opinions saying WD2 is legit good. I really should get it someday. Ubisoft open world games are so sterile and bland since Assassin's Creed 1, I have a hard time imagining a genuine good game from that AAA factory, but I want to believe!

The Watch Dogs games have solid mechanics and fun driving. But WD2 combines that with a really good cast, and a fun city (San Francisco) to play in.
 

2Blackcats

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,106
I saw at least a few people say the perma death option is excellent compared to playing without it. Is that what folks are playing?(I haven't played it at all)
 

FGNLive

Member
Feb 6, 2021
116
Loved Watch Dogs 2. One of my favourite open world titles.

Kudos to Ubi for taking the risk on the 'play as anyone' system. But the execution is awful. The dialogue in particular is jarring - tone is almost always an inappropriate match for the context, the lines are throwaway, and the application of colloquialism is so far off I am convinced no Brits were involved in the writing. Yuck.

But what a missed opportunity. The system is recruitment focused (find the best recruits) when it should be investment focused (invest time in this character and they will exponentially improve in capabilities). The base capabilities of characters is too high - you need characters that are completely unable to use firearms, or completely unable to hack, or completely unable to drive. Force the player to change their approach entirely, it is too easy to use a basic approach that all characters are able to do. Let me build a character that I care for and am anxious about losing. State of Decay 2 does a good job of this with a very similar system.

And the drones? Please enough with the drones.
 

Ciao

Member
Jun 14, 2018
4,878
The Watch Dogs games have solid mechanics and fun driving. But WD2 combines that with a really good cast, and a fun city (San Francisco) to play in.
The driving part is specifically the one that interests me. I only tried the Legion Trial and the driving was not super good. Is it one of the things that WD2 does better?
 
OP
OP

ThisIsBlitz21

Member
Oct 22, 2018
4,662
Each time a thread about WD Legion pops up, I'm intrigued by the opinions saying WD2 is legit good. I really should get it someday. Ubisoft open world games are so sterile and bland since Assassin's Creed 1, I have a hard time imagining a genuine good game from that AAA factory, but I want to believe!
I just can't behind the notion of Ubisoft worlds being lifeless/sterile/checkboxes/etc (while that is true to an extent, there's quite a few other games with similar open worlds which catch none of the same flack). I legit think AC Origins Egypt is a really well done open world that I enjoyed exploring more than, lets say, Horizon Zero Dawn, which follows the Ubisoft formula quite closely while not getting any similar criticisms.
 

ClivePwned

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,630
Australia
i found Legion was the only one of the three WD games I didn't get stuck on a mission around 9-10 hrs in and give up. It's the only one of the three I enjoyed enough to finish.
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,451
The driving part is specifically the one that interests me. I only tried the Legion Trial and the driving was not super good. Is it one of the things that WD2 does better?

It really does everything better. And the good news is that at this point you should be able to get WD2 pretty damn cheap, so even if you don't end up liking it you won't really be out of much money. Outside of the GTA games, which are just on another level, i'd say that WD2 is right alongside Sleeping Dogs as my favorite open world crime game. And I might put WD2 a slightly above SD just due to how good the cast is.
 

Skeeter49

I wish Jim Ryan would eat me
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,297
The moment they revealed this gimmick, I saw the writing on the wall that it was going to hurt the game. Shame it doesn't seem like it bought many gameplay options, since I thought that would be the one strength. But I wrote off the story/ characters the moment the reveal happened and that is a big factor for me for open world games.
 

Chumunga64

Member
Jun 22, 2018
14,312
I was super impressed with Watch Dogs 2 and Legion felt really lame

its central gimmick was kinda surface level and everything else suffered
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
106,121
I saw it coming a mile away. Playing/recruiting as anyone is one of those things that sounds hype on paper and can sell a trailer, but then you realize the reality of how these things tend to actually be and you just know they'll never be able to truly live up to it

The most obvious being that the characters won't be meaningfully fleshed compared to an established protagonist. It's just not realistic to do with that many characters.
 

IBetUHav

Member
Oct 27, 2017
397
I'd love to get a remake of #1 for next gen consoles that lives up to that initial reveal trailer
 

Gamer @ Heart

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,655
I'm someone who enjoyed the game and it will always have a special place in my heart for helping get through the fucking week long anxiety that was the 2020 election, but I'll say this:

It was absolutely a step back So many resources went into making that gimmick work instead of building off of 2 and expanding the interactivity of the world. I'm saddened that the upcoming single player focus of the new expansion will still be hindered by the world and level design that had to conform to the any agent design. They need to go full stealth game like the second game skirted with.

I think it could have been more engaging had they not cut the progression aspects of the agents instead of the simplified gadget points/upgrades they all share.

I'm hoping the series keeps going because there is so much potential here if they can find a strong enough vision to execute on.
 

BotFixer

Member
Mar 16, 2021
156
There's just something about watchdogs art style/graphics that doesn't sit right with me. Even with ray tracing the game looks, idk gross in a sense to me.