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DocSeuss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,784
It's hardly just a couple of moneyhats though. Sony have been signing exclusivity deals relentlessly all last generation, and they've done them largely unanswered as a result of both Xbox having a weaker market position making it cheaper for them to do, but also because the practice of signing them is widely accepted for them, but not for MS.

There's a reason why something like Final Fantasy sells so disproportionately on PlayStation... it's because these exclusivity deals reinforce (or in some cases disrupt) audiences on a given platform, and as time goes on that becomes more difficult to undo. Sony's had Final Fantasy in their corner for a long time now, going back to Final Fantasy 7, but the series DID eventually come to Xbox day and date beginning with Final Fantasy XIII, and was starting to cultivate an audience within that ecosystem that had a desire to play JRPGs. That Final Fantasy 7 Remake got moneyhatted (for what is still an uncertain length of time in regards to Xbox) isn't a random coincidence. This type of moneyhat is a precisely targeted one to cause an entire genre of game not be viable on the platform.

There are some IP that within their sphere carry so much weight that they cause ripple effects across the genre. Sony's Street Fighter V moneyhat effectively buried the entire fighter genre on Xbox, because nobody invested in that genre was going to opt for a console that lacked Street Fighter.. and as a result other titles that weren't (or at least I'm not aware of being) moneyhats would start to skip the console also, because if nobody that's invested in that genre is opting for that console, why should the smaller, more niche IP target that console either, right?

So yes... timed exclusives very much can be used to push a competing platform out of the market, and Sony was routinely targeting games that would be the most crippling across the spectrum. Whether that be Final Fantasy (and possibly Persona?) in the JRPG space, Street Fighter in the fighting game space, the year (or two) long exclusive content deals for Destiny, and the exclusive map content for COD in the FPS space, etc... the goal was to make it so Xbox as a platform wasn't a viable choice for the majority of the market. And quite frankly, it was working and working well... hence the situation in 2016 where MS bowing out of the market entirely was a very real possibility.

When that didn't occur, Sony looked to land killer blows right away at the start of this generation. Hence the announcement of Final Fantasy XVI's timed exclusivity ahead of the consoles being released, and the murmurs of a whole slew of others to be revealed in time. And the general response here was just that it was a foregone conclusion that PS5 would just continue to build on PS4's momentum largely unimpeded. And considering the shit MS took back in 2015 when they dared to land a single comparable exclusivity deal with Rise of the Tomb Raider, that avenue of retaliation was clearly not available to them. Look how quick the clarification of the duration of exclusivity of RoTR was forced out of MS and SquareEnix, and then contrast that with Crash N'Sane Trilogy, Nier Automata, Final Fantasy 7R, KOTOR remake... or any of countless other deals where their eventual Xbox release was happily left vague as hell. That's how we're here today, because MS were either gonna commit fully and land some true heavy blows that made a real difference to the current landscape, or they were inevitably going to see their platform marginalised to the point where they had to drop out.

If people didn't want to see the level of escalation we're seeing now today... well, they shouldn't have been so comfortable commending the ever increasing frequency and severity of deals Sony was making to cripple their primary competition. "Final Fantasy sells 80%+ on PlayStation anyways, so they may as well" and by extension "of course it makes sense for game X to skip Xbox, because the audience is all on PlayStation". Well, congrats... now they won't all be. The rampant desire for the glory days of PS2-era domination has led us here, and so cries about how unfair it is ring hollow.

This is an excellent post.

It's also worth noting that Sony's paid exclusivity designed to keep content off of other platforms goes back to the back half of the PS3 generation, when they signed a deal with EA to bring entire games/game remakes (medal of honor and the dead space rail shooter, for instance--which had Move support but could be played with a normal controller, which is how I played it). It appeared at the time--and remains so--that Sony was very nervous about Microsoft building momentum that gen and they started playing pretty dirty shortly after. That Microsoft was explicitly asked if they would do the timed exclusivity model and outright rejected it in interviews around 2014 or so (memory fuzzy, can't recall correctly) speaks highly to Microsoft's leadership.

Microsoft's timed exclusivity has always been "this would not exist if we funded it." GTA4's DLC, for instance, which is the first timed content MS did that I know of, was not going to exist until MS funded its creation. To my knowledge, several other projects with timed exclusivity were funded entirely or mostly by Microsoft. There's nothing wrong with a moneyhat that brings a game into existence--if you give me twenty million dollars to make a game and ask for exclusivity in return, I will do that for you. I have, in fact, done that for a publisher (;D); there is everything wrong with a moneyhat that's a fraction of a game's budget, designed to keep games away from other platforms.

Sony's a bit different; Final Fantasy XVI would exist whether Sony moneyhatted it or not; the Capcom leak revealed that Sony isn't paying entire dev budgets to make these games happen, it's only a couple mil at most on games that are routinely in the 20-60 million dollar range. Sony's targeting has always been about damaging the competition, not enriching the platform. It has always been insidious; buying the worst managed publisher of all time from its owners so the devs have a fighting chance of making what they want and not be forced to waste their talents in the Call of Duty mines is a far cry from Sony's targeted moneyhatting.

By the by, we know this to be an absolute fact, because the confirmed Capcom leaks indicated Sony quite literally paid to keep MHWorld off the PC for a set period of time.

Because it was the most anti-consumer practice any console company has ever tried to pull and people rebelled against it. Nothing Sony has done comes close.

Incorrect. Microsoft's move was a really interesting one--their intention was to allow you to install games via a disc and then not have to use the discs anymore, which is a very pro-consumer move and would have been a fantastic feature. The DRM checkin function was meant to prevent people from cheating that--after all, if I could buy a $60 game, install it, then hand the disc to my friend and he could go install it and so on, then it would harm developers, which would in turn harm consumers.

The problem--which they could not overcome and which Mattrick fucked up royally on his public messaging (seriously, there are interviews in 2013/2014 where multiple MS people are saying completely different things)--was that this genuinely awesome idea could only work if you couldn't trade in games easily, and Microsoft was allegedly working on ways to fix that (by including a code with every game that you would have to rescind and keep with your copy of the game), but the fix was pretty shitty (because it required authorized resellers only, since you could not protect your consumers if anyone could have revocation access; the only way for this to work is if trusted parties could revoke keys and make them valid again before the game could be resold).

Ultimately, Microsoft went with digital-only consoles instead, just as Sony is, because digital is overwhelming the market. Being able to buy and sell your games is going the way of Blockbuster. It's not sustainable for Gamestop, the primary corporation that allows this, and most mom and pop stores that I've seen so far don't have large stocks of current-gen games, mostly 5-7th gen stuff.

Microsoft ended up being correct about their predictions, but NOT their implementation. As usual, Microsoft really did push gaming forward in terms of how digital content would be used and explored--Sony, as always, copied Microsoft's features, just like copying everything from accounts to achievements to digital storefronts--not the other way around. Sony hardware always plays it safe, looking at what its competitors do and copying them. The cost of this is sometimes Microsoft ends up with egg on its face when it fucks up its initial implementation, and Sony... never looks as bad for copying it, even when they fail to do as good a job as Microsoft does (like account name changes not working for years). That has changed in regards to back compat--MS looks great here (because they're improving games and game performance without requiring anything from the developer, it's just free for the dev because it's a value add to MS) and Sony looks terrible--and Sony's doing all sorts of little things like "we won't allow remasters unless you add in trophies" that are exacerbating this problem. Sony only ever experiments with largely safe stuff--stuff that's assumed to be widely popular (copying the Wii almost exactly, as opposed to Kinect being a meaningful iteration on the model), or stuff that's low risk and designed to lock you into the platform (like trying to make it so games have to use the touchpad gimmick or rumble triggers). That stuff's all meant to make it so those games are harder to be ported to other consoles, but it never meaningfully advances games as a medium; it's just designed to trap things on Sony devices.

Gamers don't know what anti-consumer means, man. If you did, you'd be loudly and roundly criticizing Sony for their continued and deliberately anticompetitive moneyhatting.

It was a great idea with horrible messaging and ultimately execution that just could not have ever worked simply enough for players to be happy with it. But if you look at it, nearly everything Microsoft pushed for at the beginning of the gen, that all actually happened. Sony fell in line with Microsoft, not the other way around. Just look at everything Microsoft messaged and everything Microsoft did, then look at what the PS4 was at the start of the gen and how Sony pivoted around Microsoft's plans, not the other way around. The only things MS really got wrong were Kinect (understandable, the Kinect was the fastest selling electronic device of all time when it launched, it makes sense their number crunchers would think sentiment was high) and the "install from disc and then do not require the disc to be in the console at all times as DRM." Discs themselves serve as a form of DRM; you can't play the game at all without the disc in the drive. Removing that and making it so there was a check-in every few weeks was less restrictive than requiring a disc to be in the console at all times, but at the cost of reselling, which is why MS ultimately backed off it.

People love to mock them for the "tv" angle but forget that A) the most used app on the 360 by far at the end of the 360 generation were YouTube and Netflix, not games, and B) the actual time they spent on TV at the reveal was half or slightly less than half, and then at E3 a few weeks later, they were 100% in on games--as I recall, Sony actually talked more about non-gaming things than MS did at the PS4's first E3 lol.
 
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entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,010
But they where positioned as pure exclusives meant to look like Playstation would not get them.
Just as Synth writes about Sony doing.

Or like how Sony used timed DLC to make their versions of the games seem better.
Like how Microsoft did with the GTA IV DLC and the same deal Sony has with CoD.

And I agree regarding Street Fighter V and Final Fantasy. As I have stated, I think Sony is absolutley terrible and shit in this regard. Keeping games from another platform is terrible.

Now if that post was written but from the perspective of MS doing all that and people would go "Yeah! Sony must only react!" I'd complain as much and point to the PS2-era and find it just as revisionist and ironic.



Fucking online-passes where so stupid. Sony trying to make it a big thing was horrible and trying to kill the used games market.

So happy that it ultimateley flopped.
I think you're reading Synth's post incorrectly.

He's not talking about MS must react as something he's rooting for. He's saying that MS, as a business, will react. That's what businesses do. Do you think MS was just going to be content being moneyhatted out of important franchises?

Synth is talking soberly about business dynamics. He's not rooting for MS to react.

It was going to happen as Sony further escalated exclusives--permanent ones.

I think some folks are reading it as "but MS started it". That's not relevant to the discussion. What is relevant that is their main rival continued the approach themselves, even more aggressively--banning franchises from Xbox altogether, so what happens next? Do you think a Fortune 10 company like MS was just going twiddle their thumbs?

This is an excellent post.

It's also worth noting that Sony's paid exclusivity designed to keep content off of other platforms goes back to the back half of the PS3 generation, when they signed a deal with EA to bring entire games/game remakes (medal of honor and the dead space rail shooter, for instance--which had Move support but could be played with a normal controller, which is how I played it). It appeared at the time--and remains so--that Sony was very nervous about Microsoft building momentum that gen and they started playing pretty dirty shortly after. That Microsoft was explicitly asked if they would do the timed exclusivity model and outright rejected it in interviews around 2014 or so (memory fuzzy, can't recall correctly) speaks highly to Microsoft's leadership.

Microsoft's timed exclusivity has always been "this would not exist if we funded it." GTA4's DLC, for instance, which is the first timed content MS did that I know of, was not going to exist until MS funded its creation. To my knowledge, several other projects with timed exclusivity were funded entirely or mostly by Microsoft. There's nothing wrong with a moneyhat that brings a game into existence--if you give me twenty million dollars to make a game and ask for exclusivity in return, I will do that for you. I have, in fact, done that for a publisher (;D); there is everything wrong with a moneyhat that's a fraction of a game's budget, designed to keep games away from other platforms.

Sony's a bit different; Final Fantasy XVI would exist whether Sony moneyhatted it or not; the Capcom leak revealed that Sony isn't paying entire dev budgets to make these games happen, it's only a couple mil at most on games that are routinely in the 20-60 million dollar range. Sony's targeting has always been about damaging the competition, not enriching the platform. It has always been insidious; buying the worst managed publisher of all time from its owners so the devs have a fighting chance of making what they want and not be forced to waste their talents in the Call of Duty mines is a far cry from Sony's targeted moneyhatting.

Right. This is what I mean. Sony is paying to completely lock out stuff from platforms entirely.

It's clear that MS invested in Namco at the start of the 360 generations. Tales of Vesperia and Eternal Sonata, which later got improved PS3 ports.

Tales games never got the same budget that Vesperia got until the most recent game. MS money helped there.

Weirdly, I do think CoD will stay on PS platforms.
 
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Naner

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,016
Because it was the most anti-consumer practice any console company has ever tried to pull and people rebelled against it. Nothing Sony has done comes close.
Fair enough, but there is merit in listening to the reaction and changing the plan. That was also under a different CEO of Microsoft and different head of Xbox.
 

Dan-o

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,887
The DRM checkin function was meant to prevent people from cheating that--after all, if I could buy a $60 game, install it, then hand the disc to my friend and he could go install it and so on, then it would harm developers, which would in turn harm consumers.
Which is exactly what some of us did with our DLC discs. I recall passing around the Fallout 3 and Fallout NV DLC discs. Dishonored as well, I think. It wasn't 'right' but there was surprisingly no mechanism to prohibit it, like a code with the disc.

The problem--which they could not overcome and which Mattrick fucked up royally on his public messaging (seriously, there are interviews in 2013/2014 where multiple MS people are saying completely different things)--was that this genuinely awesome idea could only work if you couldn't trade in games easily, and Microsoft was allegedly working on ways to fix that (by including a code with every game that you would have to rescind and keep with your copy of the game), but the fix was pretty shitty (because it required authorized resellers only, since you could not protect your consumers if anyone could have revocation access; the only way for this to work is if trusted parties could revoke keys and make them valid again before the game could be resold).
Oh God... It was basically a proto-NFT lol

Joking aside, I agree very much with this post, and this new way of thinking about game ownership opened up new ideas for game sharing.

Like, I'd have loved to see a genuine explainer for the Family Sharing feature they touted and then quietly killed when management changed and they abandoned the 'always online' stuff. I'm disappointed that never got fleshed out a bit better. It was all speculation at the time, but it predated Steam's version of game sharing, and the idea, at least as I remember it being explained, was you could share up to 10 games, which would give your family/friends a temporary license to download and play a game you owned. This is almost exactly how the Movies Anywhere Screen Pass works today; you send a friend a link that can either point to a specific movie or lets then choose one from your eligible library, and they get to watch it within a set number of days. Fucking brilliant. Why aren't consoles doing this yet?
 
May 25, 2019
6,026
London
This is an excellent post.

It's also worth noting that Sony's paid exclusivity designed to keep content off of other platforms goes back to the back half of the PS3 generation, when they signed a deal with EA to bring entire games/game remakes (medal of honor and the dead space rail shooter, for instance--which had Move support but could be played with a normal controller, which is how I played it). It appeared at the time--and remains so--that Sony was very nervous about Microsoft building momentum that gen and they started playing pretty dirty shortly after. That Microsoft was explicitly asked if they would do the timed exclusivity model and outright rejected it in interviews around 2014 or so (memory fuzzy, can't recall correctly) speaks highly to Microsoft's leadership.

Microsoft's timed exclusivity has always been "this would not exist if we funded it." GTA4's DLC, for instance, which is the first timed content MS did that I know of, was not going to exist until MS funded its creation. To my knowledge, several other projects with timed exclusivity were funded entirely or mostly by Microsoft. There's nothing wrong with a moneyhat that brings a game into existence--if you give me twenty million dollars to make a game and ask for exclusivity in return, I will do that for you. I have, in fact, done that for a publisher (;D); there is everything wrong with a moneyhat that's a fraction of a game's budget, designed to keep games away from other platforms.

Sony's a bit different; Final Fantasy XVI would exist whether Sony moneyhatted it or not; the Capcom leak revealed that Sony isn't paying entire dev budgets to make these games happen, it's only a couple mil at most on games that are routinely in the 20-60 million dollar range. Sony's targeting has always been about damaging the competition, not enriching the platform. It has always been insidious; buying the worst managed publisher of all time from its owners so the devs have a fighting chance of making what they want and not be forced to waste their talents in the Call of Duty mines is a far cry from Sony's targeted moneyhatting.

By the by, we know this to be an absolute fact, because the confirmed Capcom leaks indicated Sony quite literally paid to keep MHWorld off the PC for a set period of time.



Incorrect. Microsoft's move was a really interesting one--their intention was to allow you to install games via a disc and then not have to use the discs anymore, which is a very pro-consumer move and would have been a fantastic feature. The DRM checkin function was meant to prevent people from cheating that--after all, if I could buy a $60 game, install it, then hand the disc to my friend and he could go install it and so on, then it would harm developers, which would in turn harm consumers.

The problem--which they could not overcome and which Mattrick fucked up royally on his public messaging (seriously, there are interviews in 2013/2014 where multiple MS people are saying completely different things)--was that this genuinely awesome idea could only work if you couldn't trade in games easily, and Microsoft was allegedly working on ways to fix that (by including a code with every game that you would have to rescind and keep with your copy of the game), but the fix was pretty shitty (because it required authorized resellers only, since you could not protect your consumers if anyone could have revocation access; the only way for this to work is if trusted parties could revoke keys and make them valid again before the game could be resold).

Ultimately, Microsoft went with digital-only consoles instead, just as Sony is, because digital is overwhelming the market. Being able to buy and sell your games is going the way of Blockbuster. It's not sustainable for Gamestop, the primary corporation that allows this, and most mom and pop stores that I've seen so far don't have large stocks of current-gen games, mostly 5-7th gen stuff.

Microsoft ended up being correct about their predictions, but NOT their implementation. As usual, Microsoft really did push gaming forward in terms of how digital content would be used and explored--Sony, as always, copied Microsoft's features, just like copying everything from accounts to achievements to digital storefronts--not the other way around. Sony hardware always plays it safe, looking at what its competitors do and copying them. The cost of this is sometimes Microsoft ends up with egg on its face when it fucks up its initial implementation, and Sony... never looks as bad for copying it, even when they fail to do as good a job as Microsoft does (like account name changes not working for years). That has changed in regards to back compat--MS looks great here (because they're improving games and game performance without requiring anything from the developer, it's just free for the dev because it's a value add to MS) and Sony looks terrible--and Sony's doing all sorts of little things like "we won't allow remasters unless you add in trophies" that are exacerbating this problem. Sony only ever experiments with largely safe stuff--stuff that's assumed to be widely popular (copying the Wii almost exactly, as opposed to Kinect being a meaningful iteration on the model), or stuff that's low risk and designed to lock you into the platform (like trying to make it so games have to use the touchpad gimmick or rumble triggers). That stuff's all meant to make it so those games are harder to be ported to other consoles, but it never meaningfully advances games as a medium; it's just designed to trap things on Sony devices.

Gamers don't know what anti-consumer means, man. If you did, you'd be loudly and roundly criticizing Sony for their continued and deliberately anticompetitive moneyhatting.

It was a great idea with horrible messaging and ultimately execution that just could not have ever worked simply enough for players to be happy with it. But if you look at it, nearly everything Microsoft pushed for at the beginning of the gen, that all actually happened. Sony fell in line with Microsoft, not the other way around. Just look at everything Microsoft messaged and everything Microsoft did, then look at what the PS4 was at the start of the gen and how Sony pivoted around Microsoft's plans, not the other way around. The only things MS really got wrong were Kinect (understandable, the Kinect was the fastest selling electronic device of all time when it launched, it makes sense their number crunchers would think sentiment was high) and the "install from disc and then do not require the disc to be in the console at all times as DRM." Discs themselves serve as a form of DRM; you can't play the game at all without the disc in the drive. Removing that and making it so there was a check-in every few weeks was less restrictive than requiring a disc to be in the console at all times, but at the cost of reselling, which is why MS ultimately backed off it.

People love to mock them for the "tv" angle but forget that A) the most used app on the 360 by far at the end of the 360 generation were YouTube and Netflix, not games, and B) the actual time they spent on TV at the reveal was half or slightly less than half, and then at E3 a few weeks later, they were 100% in on games--as I recall, Sony actually talked more about non-gaming things than MS did at the PS4's first E3 lol.

Lots of truth in this post but it cannot be overstated how bad the messaging was at the time of the XBox One reveal. If you are going to try to do a paradigm shift (which is what the Xbox digital drm system was going to be), you need to have FAQs, videos, and consistent messaging from everyone slated for an interview ready to go. They didn't because they hadn't actually implemented those systems all the way through and tested them yet - it was clear several people had no idea how the system would work in several use cases. Just a really bad self goal
 

Decarb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,641
Jumping over backwards to repaint MS as the good guy.

I'm tired, so very tired.
Imagine saying the original Xbone DRM was pro-consumer because you didn't need the disk once you installed it. I feel like I'm in a twilight zone. A part of me wishes they had never done a 180 on their policy and see where it took them, so we wouldn't have this revisionist history 8 years later. "Their intention was good but their messaging was bad". No, we knew what the fuck was going on and what they were trying to do.
 
May 31, 2021
1,088
This is an excellent post.

It's also worth noting that Sony's paid exclusivity designed to keep content off of other platforms goes back to the back half of the PS3 generation, when they signed a deal with EA to bring entire games/game remakes (medal of honor and the dead space rail shooter, for instance--which had Move support but could be played with a normal controller, which is how I played it). It appeared at the time--and remains so--that Sony was very nervous about Microsoft building momentum that gen and they started playing pretty dirty shortly after. That Microsoft was explicitly asked if they would do the timed exclusivity model and outright rejected it in interviews around 2014 or so (memory fuzzy, can't recall correctly) speaks highly to Microsoft's leadership.

Microsoft's timed exclusivity has always been "this would not exist if we funded it." GTA4's DLC, for instance, which is the first timed content MS did that I know of, was not going to exist until MS funded its creation. To my knowledge, several other projects with timed exclusivity were funded entirely or mostly by Microsoft. There's nothing wrong with a moneyhat that brings a game into existence--if you give me twenty million dollars to make a game and ask for exclusivity in return, I will do that for you. I have, in fact, done that for a publisher (;D); there is everything wrong with a moneyhat that's a fraction of a game's budget, designed to keep games away from other platforms.

Sony's a bit different; Final Fantasy XVI would exist whether Sony moneyhatted it or not; the Capcom leak revealed that Sony isn't paying entire dev budgets to make these games happen, it's only a couple mil at most on games that are routinely in the 20-60 million dollar range. Sony's targeting has always been about damaging the competition, not enriching the platform. It has always been insidious; buying the worst managed publisher of all time from its owners so the devs have a fighting chance of making what they want and not be forced to waste their talents in the Call of Duty mines is a far cry from Sony's targeted moneyhatting.

By the by, we know this to be an absolute fact, because the confirmed Capcom leaks indicated Sony quite literally paid to keep MHWorld off the PC for a set period of time.

I could be wrong, but didn't MS pay to keep Titanfall 1 off of PlayStation? I remember that was suppose to be a year timed exclusive but then went full. I'll admit I'm not 100% sure of the details of that situation tho.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
I feel like a lot of gaming communities are learning how capitalism works for the first time. If you've grown up with the console wars, you've been trained to think about this business like a sport. Gaming enthusiasts tend to believe there are these standard, accepted rules of competition to see who can sell the most consoles. The precedent set by Nintendo and Sony's early playbooks are "ok" because we've been conditioned to them over time. In actuality, both corporations wanted to squeeze out the competition, make more profits and were cut-throat about it. Does anyone believe Jim Ryan wouldn't slit Microsoft Gaming's throat and kill it from existence with a snap if he had that power? Kudos for the successful tactics of Sony and Nintendo in the past but spending more money is a tactic too.

The gaming deals are getting bigger because the industry is growing and is far more lucrative. There's more demand for content, developers, IP than ever before. Big failing corporations getting bought out by bigger, more stable corporations for strategic purposes is just how our system works. Microsoft doesn't have a moral obligation to allow TenCent or Facebook to buy Activision just because that would be more "fair" for the console wars.

Imagine entertaining the idea that these acquisitions are ''answers'' to timed exclusives, how dense you need to be?

Acquisitions are the answers for exclusive content when you need to guarantee to your customers that the content will travel with the ecosystem beyond consoles. It's not an answer to Sony. It's an answer to Microsoft Gaming's business objectives which go well beyond console wars with Sony.
 
Jan 20, 2019
10,681
I feel like a lot of gaming communities are learning how capitalism works for the first time. If you've grown up with the console wars, you've been trained to think about this business like a sport. Gaming enthusiasts tend to believe there are these standard, accepted rules of competition to see who can sell the most consoles. The precedent set by Nintendo and Sony's early playbooks are "ok" because we've been conditioned to them over time. In actuality, both corporations wanted to squeeze out the competition, make more profits and were cut-throat about it. Does anyone believe Jim Ryan wouldn't slit Microsoft Gaming's throat and kill it from existence with a snap if he had that power? Kudos for the successful tactics of Sony and Nintendo in the past but spending more money is a tactic too.

The gaming deals are getting bigger because the industry is growing and is far more lucrative. There's more demand for content, developers, IP than ever before. Big failing corporations getting bought out by bigger, more stable corporations for strategic purposes is just how our system works. Microsoft doesn't have a moral obligation to allow TenCent or Facebook to buy Activision just because that would be more "fair" for the console wars.



Acquisitions are the answers for exclusive content when you need to guarantee to your customers that the content will travel with the ecosystem beyond consoles. It's not an answer to Sony. It's an answer to Microsoft Gaming's business objectives which go well beyond console wars with Sony.

I think a lot of people understand how capitalism works, pretending that MS never bought time exclusives or block any games from other platforms is reaching a step to far.

Everybody does it.
 

Liliana

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,375
NYC
Imagine entertaining the idea that these acquisitions are ''answers'' to timed exclusives, how dense you need to be?

Imagine reading entire posts instead of cherry-picking select parts and framing it to suit your narrative.

I could be wrong, but didn't MS pay to keep Titanfall 1 off of PlayStation? I remember that was suppose to be a year timed exclusive but then went full. I'll admit I'm not 100% sure of the details of that situation tho.

Titanfall 1 would not exist the way it is today if not for Microsofts backing, according to Respawn. In fact, they initially went to Sony but got turned down because Sony did not want to disclose PS4 information (this was before launch), and were told to make Titanfall a Vita game. Respawn declined and went to Microsoft. I think one of the terms for the funding, publishing and massive marketing campaign was to make it a permanent exclusive. There's zero correlation compared to, say, FFXVI, MGS4 or FFVIIR.
 

Bitterman

Banned
Nov 25, 2017
2,907
Imagine still thinking MS is concerned with competing with Sony anymore. The writing has been on the wall for a few years now, but folks still can't wrap their heads around it.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
I think a lot of people understand how capitalism works, pretending that MS never bought time exclusives or block any games from other platforms is reaching a step to far.

Everybody does it.

Yeah, content is king. Moneyhats and acquisitions are all within the rules and have been part of the industry formula for success since the start. The general principle behind those things is the same. Pretending there are good guys and bad guys based on who started what or who's spending more is silly.
 
May 31, 2021
1,088
Titanfall 1 would not exist the way it is today if not for Microsofts backing, according to Respawn. In fact, they initially went to Sony but got turned down because Sony did not want to disclose PS4 information (this was before launch), and were told to make Titanfall a Vita game. Respawn declined and went to Microsoft. I think one of the terms for the funding, publishing and massive marketing campaign was to make it a permanent exclusive. There's zero correlation compared to, say, FFXVI, MGS4 or FFVIIR.
Gotcha, thanks for clearing that up.
 
Jun 11, 2021
509
Imagine entertaining the idea that these acquisitions are ''answers'' to timed exclusives, how dense you need to be?
We'll off course that is not the main reason but Im sure it is a big factor. If you can't form a coherent argument, then just don't say anything. No need to jump to name calling just because some people don't agree with your reasoning.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,315
Getting pretty exhausted by all the mud slinging, tit for tat, they started it stuff.

Please keep in mind that everybody you're talking to is a human person. We all have our own hypocrisies, we all care much more about things which negatively impact us than those that don't affect us.

It's very, very difficult to not see most of the discussion occurring through the lens of console wars. It's not a coincidence that the group of people most concerned about consolidation are those who have invested in a platform, an ecosystem and a community which is going to be harmed by these moves. It's also not a coincidence that the people who are involved in the platforms, ecosystems and communities which stand to benefit in many ways from it are primarily not concerned with these moves, or are actively happy about them.

We could compare the reactions of Microsoft threads to Tencent threads to show that the scale of people caring about consolidation is about 1000x higher when Sony is negatively impacted. That might be mildly amusing, but we could also dig up numerous occasions when Xbox fans have been tier 1 pissbabies about various forms of exclusivity. That can be funny too. But it's not useful.

Instead, I propose basically trying to have some genuine sympathy for people who get burned by any given development. It actually does suck that people who only own a PS5, or who strongly prefer playing there (trophies, their communities of friends, controller preference, etc) have lost the output from a whole stack of game studios and some franchises. There is a little ambiguity over what will happen to CoD specifically but even so, tons of other games are definitely not going to come to PS again beyond the next 2 years. People having emotions about this is pretty normal. I would have emotions about this if my preferred places to play lost a bunch of shit I really cared about. Most enthusiasts would.

The second thing I suggest is that collectively, a lot of people should be going outside and touching grass. Having feelings is one thing, but there is definitely a level of proportional response that we need to try and keep in mind. It's videogames. If you find yourself screaming at people here or on twitter or anywhere else, or if you find yourself obsessing over the hypocricy of the fanboys, like yeah ok, but also get over it.

========================================================================

As an addendum to the above, I'd like to point out that if you're participating in arguments that anthropomorphise a huge corporation (Sony) or a megacorporation (Microsoft), or reduce their motivations to playground antics, maybe stop thinking about things that way. Who struck first, who "broke rules" or whatever is not how this is working in reality.

Sony and Microsoft are pursuing business models. You should try and think about things in those terms. Microsoft isn't buying companies because Sony moneyhatted Final Fantasy 16, nor because it got a bunch of exclusives last gen. It's not revenge for this, and it's definitely not revenge for memes about "xbox haz no gaems". Instead, they are executing on the expected needs for their business model paradigm shift - which is about growing services and expanding customer base as widely as they can. To facilitate this, they need production capacity, they need content, and they need IPs. And they needed a lot.

(Side side note - if you find yourself upset by the idea that Call of Duty might stay on playstation post acquisition, grow tf up).
Fucking thank you.

This is the post everyone should be cheerleading.

Yup. Missed opportunity by MS for SFV.
The SFV deal was massive perception wise.

If people didn't expect MS to react to that, they're naive.
So, which is it? MS bungled the exclusivity deals by rejecting SFV, or they were blindsided by it because Sony was first and had to promptly react?

I read elsewhere (that other post everyone praised as truthfacts) that Sony's moneyhat of SFV "buried" the fighter genre. Yet it appears that Phil himself wasn't interested in SF and preferred to focus on promoting Killer Instinct. In fact there's an old thread here on Era where lots of folks were downplaying the SFV exclusivity as no big deal (and arguing that MS having the Dead Rising exclusivity deal was smarter) because SFV "underperformed". Some even called it a "bad investment" by Sony. Yet according to Jawmuncher in that thread, MS actually turned down the SFV deal, too.

Go figure. 🤷‍♀️
 

larryfox

Member
Apr 27, 2020
1,071
Because it was the most anti-consumer practice any console company has ever tried to pull and people rebelled against it. Nothing Sony has done comes close.
FYI Sony explored doing the same thing but never did. one of the reasons Microsoft was planning the always online thing was because publishers and developers wanted it. I heard this from Jeff gertsman clubhouse room he did back last year.
 

thecaseace

Member
May 1, 2018
3,218
I feel like a lot of gaming communities are learning how capitalism works for the first time. If you've grown up with the console wars, you've been trained to think about this business like a sport. Gaming enthusiasts tend to believe there are these standard, accepted rules of competition to see who can sell the most consoles. The precedent set by Nintendo and Sony's early playbooks are "ok" because we've been conditioned to them over time. In actuality, both corporations wanted to squeeze out the competition, make more profits and were cut-throat about it. Does anyone believe Jim Ryan wouldn't slit Microsoft Gaming's throat and kill it from existence with a snap if he had that power? Kudos for the successful tactics of Sony and Nintendo in the past but spending more money is a tactic too.

The gaming deals are getting bigger because the industry is growing and is far more lucrative. There's more demand for content, developers, IP than ever before. Big failing corporations getting bought out by bigger, more stable corporations for strategic purposes is just how our system works. Microsoft doesn't have a moral obligation to allow TenCent or Facebook to buy Activision just because that would be more "fair" for the console wars.
Good post.

Anyone with even a light education in business would realise a lot of the discourse is incredibly naïve.

Words like monopoly are thrown around with no regard for how far away from monopoly the current state of the industry is.

And people saying it's 'not fair' or 'upsetting the industry' because Microsoft have chosen to use their capital to acquire skills and content from another company rather than embarking on a much slower decades long project to 'build organically'.

An astounding number of people seem to have no appreciation of the fact that MS are doing precisely what capitalism compels them to do to compete, not just with Sony but with any company that Microsoft views as a threat to their future ability to gain capital.
 
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Firima

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,471
User Banned (1 day): Platform warring
At this point, considering how so many people here love it when Sony removes value from the industry by paying third-parties to limit what are ostensibly multiplatform releases and are willing to support them for doing so (not to mention screeching bloody murder when Microsoft did it in defiance of the new One Console Future with Rise of the Tomb Raider), I can't be bothered to feel bad when people want to trot out the red flags and whine about the perils of late stage capitalism or evil corporations when Microsoft acquires developers. It all rings so hollow.

And whenever people say that acquisitions are inherently worse because some people won't ever get to play those games, but then moneyhats can be played elsewhere eventually...well, that's a load of shit. The point of moneyhats is to get people who like a specific game or franchise or who want to play a game to buy the platform that monetary agreements have locked it to, and that puts fans of said IP squarely in that ecosystem. Enough of these over time and you may find that you've locked your fanbase to a single platform, and it might not even be worth the effort to release elsewhere, and this effect compounds the more people you sucker into buying your platform because of temporary exclusivity, to the point where a lot of games just skip other platforms entirely and future moneyhats are now even cheaper because the marketshare numbers start to snowball in your favor. Moneyhats aren't a one off thing; the point is to depress another platform's library, which can have lasting effects in the long run.

But here's the thing: it's exponentially cheaper to do moneyhats than to develop your own games and still reap a similar benefit, which is why Sony was content to essentially rent other publishers' games rather than spending that money at home creating, building. And that's now gone and blown up in their faces spectacularly. "Why does Microsoft have to buy? They must not be able to create," is something we've seen repeated from people, like "Why does Sony have to pay devs not to release on Xbox? They must not be able to create" is never something that crosses their minds. People are angry because they were ready to shovel that first bit of dirt onto Xbox's coffin, as shown by numerous post history callouts in this thread and others, and now Microsoft has not only survived, not only thrived, but is in a position to now dominate the industry. It's a reversal of fortune like little else.

And all those people saying "well, Microsoft just needs to have games, and then maybe we'll care?" Well, Xbox fans said it because they wanted games, and so many others (especially here) said it because it lends a veneer of honesty to otherwise thinly-veiled console warring. But while they thought it was just slightly obscured "no games" talk, they might not have expected that when some people wanted Xbox to have games, and others "wanted" Microsoft to "have games," Microsoft was taking that as feedback. And now here we are. They acquired two major publishers with a large and dedicated built-in fanbase, effectively wiping out the gains of a decade's worth of Sony's market-siphoning moneyhats, with little evidence that they're going to slow down, and I don't think I could care less that they're consolidating like this because Microsoft is just doing directly was Sony was doing indirectly for the last twenty-five years, and it effectively leaves Sony with no real gains as a result. And both the Xbox brand and the studios they now own will all be better off for it. This is a good acquisition. And what we're seeing play out is an example of competition. Go complain about your capitalist hellscape somewhere else. It's not Microsoft's fault that Sony had ten years to build their business up to weather this storm rather than sit on streaming and just kick ladders down behind them. And now they're boxed in by a Nintendo that has effectively wiped out their marketshare in Japan, and a Microsoft that is buying up western IP and dev talent to keep it out of the hands of FAANG, who cold just as easily have made this purchase and effectively spelled the end of Activision Blizzard.

Sony underestimated the largest company on the planet, which is a disastrous thing to do no matter what their histories are, and I don't see a way forward for them long-term that doesn't involve Microsoft keeping them around to further serve as a market buffer against FAANG companies entering the market. I'm not saying Sony can't still do well in this new paradigm, its just that when people say "all three are doing their own thing, Microsoft doesn't need to compete with Sony to do well," they're absolutely right, just not the way they think they are. Microsoft isn't competing with Sony anymore. Microsoft isn't even in the same galaxy anymore. They reached for the stars and found bigger threats out there. And if you care about gaming at all, you should be rooting for them right about now.
 
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UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
Jumping over backwards to repaint MS as the good guy.

I'm tired, so very tired.

Who is even the "good guy" ... was it ever Sony?

On top of the stuff we know about and has leaked out about Sony's practices, I'd bet good money there's a bunch of shady, under handed things Sony did to Nintendo and especially Sega during the 90s/2000s that will may never come to light or maybe somewhat in a few decades.

That's why I don't really get that invested in "who's the good guy". There is a certain irony to Sony finally being on the receiving end of being pushed around by a bigger company.
 

PoeticProse22

Member
Oct 25, 2017
805
Who is even the "good guy" ... was it ever Sony?

On top of the stuff we know about and has leaked out about Sony's practices, I'd bet good money there's a bunch of shady, under handed things Sony did to Nintendo and especially Sega during the 90s/2000s that will may never come to light or maybe somewhat in a few decades.

That post didn't suggest anything about Sony being the "good guy". It simply stated that Microsoft isn't. Many prior posts were seemingly positing MS as the "good guy" correcting decades of mistreatment by the "bad guy" that is Sony. Justifiably, that poster was exasperated by the notion.

Getting pretty exhausted by all the mud slinging, tit for tat, they started it stuff.

Please keep in mind that everybody you're talking to is a human person. We all have our own hypocrisies, we all care much more about things which negatively impact us than those that don't affect us.

It's very, very difficult to not see most of the discussion occurring through the lens of console wars. It's not a coincidence that the group of people most concerned about consolidation are those who have invested in a platform, an ecosystem and a community which is going to be harmed by these moves. It's also not a coincidence that the people who are involved in the platforms, ecosystems and communities which stand to benefit in many ways from it are primarily not concerned with these moves, or are actively happy about them.

We could compare the reactions of Microsoft threads to Tencent threads to show that the scale of people caring about consolidation is about 1000x higher when Sony is negatively impacted. That might be mildly amusing, but we could also dig up numerous occasions when Xbox fans have been tier 1 pissbabies about various forms of exclusivity. That can be funny too. But it's not useful.

Instead, I propose basically trying to have some genuine sympathy for people who get burned by any given development. It actually does suck that people who only own a PS5, or who strongly prefer playing there (trophies, their communities of friends, controller preference, etc) have lost the output from a whole stack of game studios and some franchises. There is a little ambiguity over what will happen to CoD specifically but even so, tons of other games are definitely not going to come to PS again beyond the next 2 years. People having emotions about this is pretty normal. I would have emotions about this if my preferred places to play lost a bunch of shit I really cared about. Most enthusiasts would.

The second thing I suggest is that collectively, a lot of people should be going outside and touching grass. Having feelings is one thing, but there is definitely a level of proportional response that we need to try and keep in mind. It's videogames. If you find yourself screaming at people here or on twitter or anywhere else, or if you find yourself obsessing over the hypocricy of the fanboys, like yeah ok, but also get over it.

========================================================================

As an addendum to the above, I'd like to point out that if you're participating in arguments that anthropomorphise a huge corporation (Sony) or a megacorporation (Microsoft), or reduce their motivations to playground antics, maybe stop thinking about things that way. Who struck first, who "broke rules" or whatever is not how this is working in reality.

Sony and Microsoft are pursuing business models. You should try and think about things in those terms. Microsoft isn't buying companies because Sony moneyhatted Final Fantasy 16, nor because it got a bunch of exclusives last gen. It's not revenge for this, and it's definitely not revenge for memes about "xbox haz no gaems". Instead, they are executing on the expected needs for their business model paradigm shift - which is about growing services and expanding customer base as widely as they can. To facilitate this, they need production capacity, they need content, and they need IPs. And they needed a lot.

(Side side note - if you find yourself upset by the idea that Call of Duty might stay on playstation post acquisition, grow tf up).

This is a superb post. I couldn't agree more.
 

SDR-UK

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,394
Everything feels like console wars from back in the GameFAQs days but with longer and longer walls of text to parse through.

We all need a collective break from cheering on billion/trillion dollar companies buying other companies me thinks.
 

DocSeuss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,784
This is a lie, like, you only need to walk 1 year to tell that this incredible false.
You are incorrect. I would know because I've worked with both companies.

Jumping over backwards to repaint MS as the good guy.

I'm tired, so very tired.

It's very easy to look at what makes this industry healthy (more games and easier ways to access them while giving dev teams independence) and what makes this game unhealthy (paying to keep games off competing platforms, including PC) and go "I prefer what Microsoft is doing to what Sony is doing," because there's no reality in which you can look at "paying to keep games off platforms" and go "this is a good thing" without being a fanboy about it. If Sony was doing what Microsoft was doing and helping bring games into existence, it would be awesome, but Sony's focused on keeping big games that were gonna get made off platforms, while every single project I know of Microsoft funding would not have existed without Microsoft funding it. Like, there is no way to be objective without preferring what Microsoft is doing here.

Spreading FUD about "but they bought activision" is laughable when the same people have been crowing about MS has no studios, claiming Sony grew organically (they bought a bunch of independent studios, just like MS has done, but mandate what kinds of games those studios can make and shut down studios that are trying new and interesting things, which is bad for us as game devs; Sony's push towards trying to make 'cinematic games' is harmful to their studios and the complete opposite of MS basically just giving all their studios free reign to make whatever, which is how you get things like Grounded), or acting like taking over from the worst management in history is somehow worse for the devs than the only other alternative, leaving them there to be shit on by ATVI management.

There's just no way to be objective about this and be like "oh yeah MS is definitely worse than Sony and MS did a bad thing here." Consolidation isn't great but ATVI needs to die way more.
 
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Shpeshal Nick

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,856
Melbourne, Australia
I could be wrong, but didn't MS pay to keep Titanfall 1 off of PlayStation? I remember that was suppose to be a year timed exclusive but then went full. I'll admit I'm not 100% sure of the details of that situation tho.

Not quite? Depending on how you want to view it
The game was going to be multiplat.

Then EA was going to cancel it so MS stepped in to fund its completion in exchange for exclusivity.

Or so the story goes.
 

Shpeshal Nick

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,856
Melbourne, Australia
I find Synth's post so hilariously ironic. And the fact that people go "Yeah, yeah, this is it" is even funnier.

It skips over an entire generation with MS doing exactly that. Paying to keep DLC off the other console. Etablishing themselves as the FPS box with the marketing deal and timed exclusive DLC for Call of Duty.
Bioshock. Mass Effect. Mass Effect 2. Saints Row. Skyrim DLC.

At least try to not form some kind of biased narrative and make it sound like "MS was FORCED to do something!"
One could easily say that Sony was FORCED then aswell during the PS4 generation since MS did it to them previously.

Both companied do and did the exact same thing. Both companies are equally horrible.

So uh…if we're taking this path, how far back you plan on going?
 

Raspyberry

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,237
It's hardly just a couple of moneyhats though. Sony have been signing exclusivity deals relentlessly all last generation, and they've done them largely unanswered as a result of both Xbox having a weaker market position making it cheaper for them to do, but also because the practice of signing them is widely accepted for them, but not for MS.

There's a reason why something like Final Fantasy sells so disproportionately on PlayStation... it's because these exclusivity deals reinforce (or in some cases disrupt) audiences on a given platform, and as time goes on that becomes more difficult to undo. Sony's had Final Fantasy in their corner for a long time now, going back to Final Fantasy 7, but the series DID eventually come to Xbox day and date beginning with Final Fantasy XIII, and was starting to cultivate an audience within that ecosystem that had a desire to play JRPGs. That Final Fantasy 7 Remake got moneyhatted (for what is still an uncertain length of time in regards to Xbox) isn't a random coincidence. This type of moneyhat is a precisely targeted one to cause an entire genre of game not be viable on the platform.

There are some IP that within their sphere carry so much weight that they cause ripple effects across the genre. Sony's Street Fighter V moneyhat effectively buried the entire fighter genre on Xbox, because nobody invested in that genre was going to opt for a console that lacked Street Fighter.. and as a result other titles that weren't (or at least I'm not aware of being) moneyhats would start to skip the console also, because if nobody that's invested in that genre is opting for that console, why should the smaller, more niche IP target that console either, right?

So yes... timed exclusives very much can be used to push a competing platform out of the market, and Sony was routinely targeting games that would be the most crippling across the spectrum. Whether that be Final Fantasy (and possibly Persona?) in the JRPG space, Street Fighter in the fighting game space, the year (or two) long exclusive content deals for Destiny, and the exclusive map content for COD in the FPS space, etc... the goal was to make it so Xbox as a platform wasn't a viable choice for the majority of the market. And quite frankly, it was working and working well... hence the situation in 2016 where MS bowing out of the market entirely was a very real possibility.

When that didn't occur, Sony looked to land killer blows right away at the start of this generation. Hence the announcement of Final Fantasy XVI's timed exclusivity ahead of the consoles being released, and the murmurs of a whole slew of others to be revealed in time. And the general response here was just that it was a foregone conclusion that PS5 would just continue to build on PS4's momentum largely unimpeded. And considering the shit MS took back in 2015 when they dared to land a single comparable exclusivity deal with Rise of the Tomb Raider, that avenue of retaliation was clearly not available to them. Look how quick the clarification of the duration of exclusivity of RoTR was forced out of MS and SquareEnix, and then contrast that with Crash N'Sane Trilogy, Nier Automata, Final Fantasy 7R, KOTOR remake... or any of countless other deals where their eventual Xbox release was happily left vague as hell. That's how we're here today, because MS were either gonna commit fully and land some true heavy blows that made a real difference to the current landscape, or they were inevitably going to see their platform marginalised to the point where they had to drop out.

If people didn't want to see the level of escalation we're seeing now today... well, they shouldn't have been so comfortable commending the ever increasing frequency and severity of deals Sony was making to cripple their primary competition. "Final Fantasy sells 80%+ on PlayStation anyways, so they may as well" and by extension "of course it makes sense for game X to skip Xbox, because the audience is all on PlayStation". Well, congrats... now they won't all be. The rampant desire for the glory days of PS2-era domination has led us here, and so cries about how unfair it is ring hollow.
This is exactly it. Sony created this situation and I'm glad Microsoft has responded the way they have. Hopefully it stops the money hatting of exclusives by Sony and we have more multiplatform titles for console and PC in the future.
 

Pokémon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,679
This is exactly it. Sony created this situation and I'm glad Microsoft has responded the way they have. Hopefully it stops the money hatting of exclusives by Sony and we have more multiplatform titles for console and PC in the future.
I think it's too late for that. MS/Sony will go down even harder in acquisitions and moneyhats I think.
 

ThisIsBlitz21

Member
Oct 22, 2018
4,662
It's hardly just a couple of moneyhats though. Sony have been signing exclusivity deals relentlessly all last generation, and they've done them largely unanswered as a result of both Xbox having a weaker market position making it cheaper for them to do, but also because the practice of signing them is widely accepted for them, but not for MS.

There's a reason why something like Final Fantasy sells so disproportionately on PlayStation... it's because these exclusivity deals reinforce (or in some cases disrupt) audiences on a given platform, and as time goes on that becomes more difficult to undo. Sony's had Final Fantasy in their corner for a long time now, going back to Final Fantasy 7, but the series DID eventually come to Xbox day and date beginning with Final Fantasy XIII, and was starting to cultivate an audience within that ecosystem that had a desire to play JRPGs. That Final Fantasy 7 Remake got moneyhatted (for what is still an uncertain length of time in regards to Xbox) isn't a random coincidence. This type of moneyhat is a precisely targeted one to cause an entire genre of game not be viable on the platform.

There are some IP that within their sphere carry so much weight that they cause ripple effects across the genre. Sony's Street Fighter V moneyhat effectively buried the entire fighter genre on Xbox, because nobody invested in that genre was going to opt for a console that lacked Street Fighter.. and as a result other titles that weren't (or at least I'm not aware of being) moneyhats would start to skip the console also, because if nobody that's invested in that genre is opting for that console, why should the smaller, more niche IP target that console either, right?

So yes... timed exclusives very much can be used to push a competing platform out of the market, and Sony was routinely targeting games that would be the most crippling across the spectrum. Whether that be Final Fantasy (and possibly Persona?) in the JRPG space, Street Fighter in the fighting game space, the year (or two) long exclusive content deals for Destiny, and the exclusive map content for COD in the FPS space, etc... the goal was to make it so Xbox as a platform wasn't a viable choice for the majority of the market. And quite frankly, it was working and working well... hence the situation in 2016 where MS bowing out of the market entirely was a very real possibility.

When that didn't occur, Sony looked to land killer blows right away at the start of this generation. Hence the announcement of Final Fantasy XVI's timed exclusivity ahead of the consoles being released, and the murmurs of a whole slew of others to be revealed in time. And the general response here was just that it was a foregone conclusion that PS5 would just continue to build on PS4's momentum largely unimpeded. And considering the shit MS took back in 2015 when they dared to land a single comparable exclusivity deal with Rise of the Tomb Raider, that avenue of retaliation was clearly not available to them. Look how quick the clarification of the duration of exclusivity of RoTR was forced out of MS and SquareEnix, and then contrast that with Crash N'Sane Trilogy, Nier Automata, Final Fantasy 7R, KOTOR remake... or any of countless other deals where their eventual Xbox release was happily left vague as hell. That's how we're here today, because MS were either gonna commit fully and land some true heavy blows that made a real difference to the current landscape, or they were inevitably going to see their platform marginalised to the point where they had to drop out.

If people didn't want to see the level of escalation we're seeing now today... well, they shouldn't have been so comfortable commending the ever increasing frequency and severity of deals Sony was making to cripple their primary competition. "Final Fantasy sells 80%+ on PlayStation anyways, so they may as well" and by extension "of course it makes sense for game X to skip Xbox, because the audience is all on PlayStation". Well, congrats... now they won't all be. The rampant desire for the glory days of PS2-era domination has led us here, and so cries about how unfair it is ring hollow.
This is right on the money, and the best post in this thread.
 

Cranster

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,788
It's hardly just a couple of moneyhats though. Sony have been signing exclusivity deals relentlessly all last generation, and they've done them largely unanswered as a result of both Xbox having a weaker market position making it cheaper for them to do, but also because the practice of signing them is widely accepted for them, but not for MS.

There's a reason why something like Final Fantasy sells so disproportionately on PlayStation... it's because these exclusivity deals reinforce (or in some cases disrupt) audiences on a given platform, and as time goes on that becomes more difficult to undo. Sony's had Final Fantasy in their corner for a long time now, going back to Final Fantasy 7, but the series DID eventually come to Xbox day and date beginning with Final Fantasy XIII, and was starting to cultivate an audience within that ecosystem that had a desire to play JRPGs. That Final Fantasy 7 Remake got moneyhatted (for what is still an uncertain length of time in regards to Xbox) isn't a random coincidence. This type of moneyhat is a precisely targeted one to cause an entire genre of game not be viable on the platform.

There are some IP that within their sphere carry so much weight that they cause ripple effects across the genre. Sony's Street Fighter V moneyhat effectively buried the entire fighter genre on Xbox, because nobody invested in that genre was going to opt for a console that lacked Street Fighter.. and as a result other titles that weren't (or at least I'm not aware of being) moneyhats would start to skip the console also, because if nobody that's invested in that genre is opting for that console, why should the smaller, more niche IP target that console either, right?

So yes... timed exclusives very much can be used to push a competing platform out of the market, and Sony was routinely targeting games that would be the most crippling across the spectrum. Whether that be Final Fantasy (and possibly Persona?) in the JRPG space, Street Fighter in the fighting game space, the year (or two) long exclusive content deals for Destiny, and the exclusive map content for COD in the FPS space, etc... the goal was to make it so Xbox as a platform wasn't a viable choice for the majority of the market. And quite frankly, it was working and working well... hence the situation in 2016 where MS bowing out of the market entirely was a very real possibility.

When that didn't occur, Sony looked to land killer blows right away at the start of this generation. Hence the announcement of Final Fantasy XVI's timed exclusivity ahead of the consoles being released, and the murmurs of a whole slew of others to be revealed in time. And the general response here was just that it was a foregone conclusion that PS5 would just continue to build on PS4's momentum largely unimpeded. And considering the shit MS took back in 2015 when they dared to land a single comparable exclusivity deal with Rise of the Tomb Raider, that avenue of retaliation was clearly not available to them. Look how quick the clarification of the duration of exclusivity of RoTR was forced out of MS and SquareEnix, and then contrast that with Crash N'Sane Trilogy, Nier Automata, Final Fantasy 7R, KOTOR remake... or any of countless other deals where their eventual Xbox release was happily left vague as hell. That's how we're here today, because MS were either gonna commit fully and land some true heavy blows that made a real difference to the current landscape, or they were inevitably going to see their platform marginalised to the point where they had to drop out.

If people didn't want to see the level of escalation we're seeing now today... well, they shouldn't have been so comfortable commending the ever increasing frequency and severity of deals Sony was making to cripple their primary competition. "Final Fantasy sells 80%+ on PlayStation anyways, so they may as well" and by extension "of course it makes sense for game X to skip Xbox, because the audience is all on PlayStation". Well, congrats... now they won't all be. The rampant desire for the glory days of PS2-era domination has led us here, and so cries about how unfair it is ring hollow.

I cannot agree more. Your response is entirely spot on.

rock-clapping.gif
 

Bitterman

Banned
Nov 25, 2017
2,907
It's hardly just a couple of moneyhats though. Sony have been signing exclusivity deals relentlessly all last generation, and they've done them largely unanswered as a result of both Xbox having a weaker market position making it cheaper for them to do, but also because the practice of signing them is widely accepted for them, but not for MS.

There's a reason why something like Final Fantasy sells so disproportionately on PlayStation... it's because these exclusivity deals reinforce (or in some cases disrupt) audiences on a given platform, and as time goes on that becomes more difficult to undo. Sony's had Final Fantasy in their corner for a long time now, going back to Final Fantasy 7, but the series DID eventually come to Xbox day and date beginning with Final Fantasy XIII, and was starting to cultivate an audience within that ecosystem that had a desire to play JRPGs. That Final Fantasy 7 Remake got moneyhatted (for what is still an uncertain length of time in regards to Xbox) isn't a random coincidence. This type of moneyhat is a precisely targeted one to cause an entire genre of game not be viable on the platform.

There are some IP that within their sphere carry so much weight that they cause ripple effects across the genre. Sony's Street Fighter V moneyhat effectively buried the entire fighter genre on Xbox, because nobody invested in that genre was going to opt for a console that lacked Street Fighter.. and as a result other titles that weren't (or at least I'm not aware of being) moneyhats would start to skip the console also, because if nobody that's invested in that genre is opting for that console, why should the smaller, more niche IP target that console either, right?

So yes... timed exclusives very much can be used to push a competing platform out of the market, and Sony was routinely targeting games that would be the most crippling across the spectrum. Whether that be Final Fantasy (and possibly Persona?) in the JRPG space, Street Fighter in the fighting game space, the year (or two) long exclusive content deals for Destiny, and the exclusive map content for COD in the FPS space, etc... the goal was to make it so Xbox as a platform wasn't a viable choice for the majority of the market. And quite frankly, it was working and working well... hence the situation in 2016 where MS bowing out of the market entirely was a very real possibility.

When that didn't occur, Sony looked to land killer blows right away at the start of this generation. Hence the announcement of Final Fantasy XVI's timed exclusivity ahead of the consoles being released, and the murmurs of a whole slew of others to be revealed in time. And the general response here was just that it was a foregone conclusion that PS5 would just continue to build on PS4's momentum largely unimpeded. And considering the shit MS took back in 2015 when they dared to land a single comparable exclusivity deal with Rise of the Tomb Raider, that avenue of retaliation was clearly not available to them. Look how quick the clarification of the duration of exclusivity of RoTR was forced out of MS and SquareEnix, and then contrast that with Crash N'Sane Trilogy, Nier Automata, Final Fantasy 7R, KOTOR remake... or any of countless other deals where their eventual Xbox release was happily left vague as hell. That's how we're here today, because MS were either gonna commit fully and land some true heavy blows that made a real difference to the current landscape, or they were inevitably going to see their platform marginalised to the point where they had to drop out.

If people didn't want to see the level of escalation we're seeing now today... well, they shouldn't have been so comfortable commending the ever increasing frequency and severity of deals Sony was making to cripple their primary competition. "Final Fantasy sells 80%+ on PlayStation anyways, so they may as well" and by extension "of course it makes sense for game X to skip Xbox, because the audience is all on PlayStation". Well, congrats... now they won't all be. The rampant desire for the glory days of PS2-era domination has led us here, and so cries about how unfair it is ring hollow.
This post needs to read a dozen times by the closet fanboys who think timed exclusivities isn't a big deal. It very much is and any other company would have bowed out for sure. Unfortunately for Sony, MS isn't like any other company.
 

takriel

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,221
Wouldn't it make sense to have GamePass on PlayStation?

Every Xbox exclusive day one on PS plus their own exclusives. Not sure what is taking PS so long on this one.
 

Rosenkrantz

Member
Jan 17, 2018
4,920
Phil is just giving PR lip service on that. They wouldn't put Game Pass on Playstation even if Sony allowed it.
I think they would. MS is going beyond hardware and wants to turn their business model to be more service like, success of GP is crucial in this endeavour, no matter what platform it happens to be on. Obviously Xbox/Windows version of GP is going to be a better deal because it'll also have 3rd party games on it and potential GP on PS or Switch would be limited to XGS' own output.
 

Frieza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,850
I think they would. MS is going beyond hardware and wants to turn their business model to be more service like, success of GP is crucial in this endeavour, no matter what platform it happens to be on. Obviously Xbox/Windows version of GP is going to be a better deal because it'll also have 3rd party games on it and potential GP on PS or Switch would be limited to XGS' own output.
Why do people keep saying this? Microsoft won't create a second Game Pass that will cause confusion about their service and cause people to think it's worse than it actually is. Has Netflix created a second Netflix? Of course not because it doesn't make any sense.
 

Arn

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,728
Wouldn't it make sense to have GamePass on PlayStation?

Every Xbox exclusive day one on PS plus their own exclusives. Not sure what is taking PS so long on this one.
Firstly it'll eat in their own subscription revenue and secondly Microsoft will want something in return. It won't be charity. Game Pass is their leverage to get first party games from PlayStation and Nintendo on their platforms.
 

immortal-joe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,417
So uh…if we're taking this path, how far back you plan on going?

Far enough to paint the full picture, and not leave out the parts that contradict a narrative people are trying to form.

The main sticking point with me is reframing that history in a way that makes Sony the only instigator. It's absurd.

Microsoft was relentless with securing third party exclusivity throughout the 360 gen and well into the next one. They even started by trying to buy Square.

Sony ain't high and mighty, but all we're seeing here is the bigger fish outspending the smaller one, yet being portrayed as being forced to do so.
 

Mad_Rhetoric

Banned
May 7, 2019
3,466
Phil is just giving PR lip service on that. They wouldn't put Game Pass on Playstation even if Sony allowed it.

Exactly. People thinking MS needs sony's money/audience is always funny to me. MS still cares about their Xbox hardware, theyre not going to devalue it by giving sony their 1P games that they paid billions for.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,348
Canada
I find Synth's post so hilariously ironic. And the fact that people go "Yeah, yeah, this is it" is even funnier.

It skips over an entire generation with MS doing exactly that. Paying to keep DLC off the other console. Etablishing themselves as the FPS box with the marketing deal and timed exclusive DLC for Call of Duty.
Bioshock. Mass Effect. Mass Effect 2. Saints Row. Skyrim DLC.

At least try to not form some kind of biased narrative and make it sound like "MS was FORCED to do something!"
One could easily say that Sony was FORCED then aswell during the PS4 generation since MS did it to them previously.

Both companied do and did the exact same thing. Both companies are equally horrible.
Mass Effect 1 was a game funded and published by Microsoft. Saints Row 1 came out before the PS3 even released.
 

Afrikan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
16,970
I think they would. MS is going beyond hardware and wants to turn their business model to be more service like, success of GP is crucial in this endeavour, no matter what platform it happens to be on. Obviously Xbox/Windows version of GP is going to be a better deal because it'll also have 3rd party games on it and potential GP on PS or Switch would be limited to XGS' own output.

Are they going to port every single game designed for the Series consoles?

Or just expecting gamers to stream these games through Xcloud.