• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Ripcord

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,777
I don't see many, if any, posters painting this an unqualified success going by the past few pages at least. At best, I see people remarking how the situation still sucks even if it is "improved". And if I missed any, then fuck those people, but improvements on policy are a good thing.

The no family separation is a good thing because it's one less thing to have to fight for. That allows us to focus on other issues more easily. And this situation is awful and needs to be improved fast. I don't want any private contractors doing this shit. And I don't trust HHS or ICE or whoever in the government would, either. I do not take them at their word they are doing better. There needs to be more transparency and there should be outside sources going into these places to directly report on these situations so we know exactly how awful they are so we can raise very specific concerns to our officials. Whether by protest or direct contact.
Everyone agrees family separation being halted is a good thing. The call for better conditions and more transparency around these sorts of issues has been the same call for decades. I'll let you make your own judgment on whether the incremental improvements that we get are enough to ultimately resolve this issue on an infinite timeline.
If it is managed by a company with logged prior abuses, then that obviously needs to be addressed as quickly as possible. See my "safe, comfortable, and time-limited" comment above.

But if you don't come up with an actionable plan to protect these children and ensure that child trafficking isn't running rampant, I can't take the "locking up children" thing seriously. Yes, twelve year olds cannot roam freely (in the...desert?), while we ensure that children have a safe place to go within our legal system. Please provide an actual alternative beyond "how about not locking them up", and I will be happy to consider it, but I don't see an easy way around it.
Why is it my job to come up with a plan again? I'm pretty sure that I vote for representatives so that they'll enact my will on a federal level. That's not what happens of course, cause the people I'm forced to elect can't be held accountable in any real degree and so they don't actually give a toss about what's good for me and mine. I'm used to that. But I'll be goddamned if I'm not only expected to canvass and vote for people who only want to enrich themselves, but also hold the bag when they throw their hands in the air to declare once again that better things aren't possible.

Maybe a job exchange? Biden can come to my company and fill in for me, and I'll go to the white house to fill in for him. Then you can ask me what my plan is. Fair?

Or we could just go through history and see what alternatives and suggestions people much more intelligent and suited to the job than I am think. That'll probably be easier. No need to reinvent the wheel right?
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
Maybe a job exchange? Biden can come to my company and fill in for me, and I'll go to the white house to fill in for him. Then you can ask me what my plan is. Fair?

Or we could just go through history and see what alternatives and suggestions people much more intelligent and suited to the job than I am think. That'll probably be easier. No need to reinvent the wheel right?
I'm sorry, but I do not find this sufficient. You're being snarky, but I could just as easily claim *you* want twelve year olds wandering the desert with no assistance or care.

That's not a fair assumption, but if there is no solution offered to a problem, I would rather there be a system in place that can find homes and safe places for these children. They are *children*. I would see them cared for. And that does mean a twelve-year-old cannot randomly wander out of a door into the desert.

This is a *separate argument* from "are these facilities currently actually safe", so please don't misrepresent me, thanks. They *need* to be safe, immediately, and at any cost.
 
OP
OP
Samiya

Samiya

Alt Account
Banned
Nov 30, 2019
4,811
The "well, what alternative do you have to locking kids up in detention camps, huh?" arguments are making me dizzy.

As if there are not any other solutions than putting kids behind bars in a facility established under Trump and overseen by a company with a history of abuse and mistreatment of its prisoners. The "this is necessary" view is extremely limited and ends up justifying and rationalizing very inhumane practices that we all were against under Trump.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,096
Sydney
Can you explain to me how you draw the conclusion that BCFS is disproportionately bad? I am not doubting you, I just don't understand the metric you're using to determine proportionality.

Southwest Key has the most cases, but they are also the largest organization.
BCFS has the second most cases, but they are also the second largest organization.

I don't see a metric of how many children each manages. If you compare the ratio of cases to federal funds, BCFS is twice as a good as the others.

These three organizations are disproportionately bad because they account for over half of all abuse allegations amongst minors amongst government contractors.

If you're saying Southwest Key is worse because it's larger, that suggests the issue is endemic and these sorts of contractors shouldn't be running these facilities at all regardless of size.
 
Jun 20, 2019
2,638
Here's a question. If the problem is actually that the US child services and foster system are overwhelmed why is the answer to lock up the immigrant children? If this were actually true, if we couldn't do anything else for the current rate of guardianless children, wouldn't the moral thing be to send children at random to an "overflow facility"? Or devise some other metric that does not discriminate in immigration status, primary language, ethnicity or race?
 

Garrett 2U

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,511
These three organizations are disproportionately bad because they account for over half of all abuse allegations amongst minors amongst government contractors.

If you're saying Southwest Key is worse because it's larger, that suggests the issue is endemic and these sorts of contractors shouldn't be running these facilities at all regardless of size.
You can't just account for the raw numbers of cases because each organization has a different amount of children under their management.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,914
Here's a question. If the problem is actually that the US child services and foster system are overwhelmed why is the answer to lock up the immigrant children? If this were actually true, if we couldn't do anything else for the current rate of guardianless children, wouldn't the moral thing be to send children at random to an "overflow facility"? Or devise some other metric that does not discriminate in immigration status, primary language, ethnicity or race?
You know that these facilities are a temporary, in-between measure, correct? They're there for a few weeks, longer than they should be and longer than they are required to be under Flores but still a fairly short time, before being either connected to a family member or guardian or entered into the foster system. They aren't an endpoint as your question suggests they are.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,096
Sydney
You can't just account for the raw numbers of cases because each organization has a different amount of children under their management.

I'm saying these contractor organizations shouldn't have kids under their control at all.

There appears to be little to no oversight, they're running facilities often in remote locations with relaxed safety standards, which coupled with a high volume of abuse is a big problem!
 
Nov 2, 2017
2,240
At the very least, don't hire the contractor with dozens of abuse claims lodged against them.

Part of the problem of that is that if you're looking for a corrections contractor without a history of abuse, you're probably talking about hiring a corrections agency with zero history.

It's a problem on a much deeper level that cannot be addressed by just hiring the good company (even before the part where we consider that capitalism renders "good company" to be a contradiction in terms).
 

Ogodei

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,256
Coruscant
You get it. That's why posters are trying really hard to paint this as success because it registers as success for them. No family separation? Problem solved. Kids in detention camps are nuance that can be sorted out later.

Better things aren't possible.

The folks on your side of the argument have failed to reasonably delineate what those "better things" are.

Unaccompanied minors come into the country. Maybe they're looking for family here, maybe they have none. Until the government can figure out the best destination for these children, they need to live somewhere. They aren't being kept in cages like cattle any longer, they have reasonable accommodations, and will be released as soon as they're cleared for Covid and have a new housing solution found. They are not going to be thrown out of the country.

Tell me what should be done differently.
 

CesareNorrez

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,520
Everyone agrees family separation being halted is a good thing. The call for better conditions and more transparency around these sorts of issues has been the same call for decades. I'll let you make your own judgment on whether the incremental improvements that we get are enough to ultimately resolve this issue on an infinite timeline.

Look, you fight hard for changes. And you have to fight this hard just for incremental changes because our system is rotten and soul-crushing. And I speak from experience engaging with local, state, and federal officials. I've been to public meetings were people speak openly about their struggles to government officials and it's a total bummer because very likely nothing is going to improve by the time the next public meeting (in a few months at best) happens. And yet the fight goes on. And if there is a win, it allows for the focus to ever so slightly narrow and the resources to be pulled more tightly to hopefully get a win at some point in the future.

We talk about the lawyers advocating for these immigrants, so not having family separations be an issue is big because they have more time to focus on these living conditions as presented in this article (an everlong fight as you point out). The incremental improvements are not enough, they never are, and if we don't stay vigilante we go backwards. It's depressing how often the fight is just to maintain the status quo. I mean the children in these facilities might have it better than those that went through them last year, but they don't know that. It's an absolutely awful experience they are going through today, so what others experienced doesn't matter. And yet somehow things are supposed to better. It's totally fucked to even think this is an improvement at all. The children that make it out of this will carry it with them forever, yet the fight continues and we point to these milestones as progress and try to make sure the next children that come through it are a little less traumatized. And maybe someday these increments add up and we can remark we have come a long way, and it might even seem to have come together quickly at some point, but we'll know the fight was long and laborious. And the work still won't be done because we can always do better, so we keep fighting.
 

Ripcord

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,777
I'm sorry, but I do not find this sufficient. You're being snarky, but I could just as easily claim *you* want twelve year olds wandering the desert with no assistance or care.

That's not a fair assumption, but if there is no solution offered to a problem, I would rather there be a system in place that can find homes and safe places for these children. They are *children*. I would see them cared for. And that does mean a twelve-year-old cannot randomly wander out of a door into the desert.

This is a *separate argument* from "are these facilities currently actually safe", so please don't misrepresent me, thanks. They *need* to be safe, immediately, and at any cost.
Meh. I'm not even mad at you Feep so I'll stop taking it out on you. I think it's reasonable to say Biden is locking up kids. Agree to disagree.
 

Ripcord

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,777
The folks on your side of the argument have failed to reasonably delineate what those "better things" are.
Let me be honest without making any judgments about you personally. This type of language reeks of, "just asking questions" and that's something I don't fuck with. I'm sure that's not what you're doing but the information is readily available and has been for a long time. I'm not your guy on this cause I'm beyond burned out.
Look, you fight hard for changes. And you have to fight this hard just for incremental changes because our system is rotten and soul-crushing. And I speak from experience engaging with local, state, and federal officials. I've been to public meetings were people speak openly about their struggles to government officials and it's a total bummer because very likely nothing is going to improve by the time the next public meeting (in a few months at best) happens. And yet the fight goes on. And if there is a win, it allows for the focus to ever so slightly narrow and the resources to be pulled more tightly to hopefully get a win at some point in the future.

We talk about the lawyers advocating for these immigrants, so not having family separations be an issue is big because they have more time to focus on these living conditions as presented in this article (an everlong fight as you point out). The incremental improvements are not enough, they never are, and if we don't stay vigilante we go backwards. It's depressing how often the fight is just to maintain the status quo. I mean the children in these facilities might have it better than those that went through them last year, but they don't know that. It's an absolutely awful experience they are going through today, so what others experienced doesn't matter. And yet somehow things are supposed to better. It's totally fucked to even think this is an improvement at all. The children that make it out of this will carry it with them forever, yet the fight continues and we point to these milestones as progress and try to make sure the next children that come through it are a little less traumatized. And maybe someday these increments add up and we can remark we have come a long way, and it might even seem to have come together quickly at some point, but we'll know the fight was long and laborious. And the work still won't be done because we can always do better, so we keep fighting.
An important part of battle is having a clear understanding of who your opponents are. Sometimes it's not always obvious.
 

Pollux

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
940
Meh. I'm not even mad at you Feep so I'll stop taking it out on you. I think it's reasonable to say Biden is locking up kids. Agree to disagree.
Biden may be "locking up" kids - but what is your solution? Everything I read is "do something better" - but they have to stay somewhere while family is found or while suitable long term living solutions are found.
 

Deleted member 6230

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,118
I find the "what's your solution?" retorts to be incredibly facile. One doesn't need to be able to propose a perfect solution to a problem they are presenting to be able to talk about said problem. It's not like one is asking for the Biden administration to figure out a way to break the laws of nature here. It's honestly a bit triggering to hear folks drop that line without any self awareness.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,954
I find the "what's your solution?" retorts to be incredibly facile. One doesn't need to be able to propose a perfect solution to a problem they are presenting to be able to talk about said problem. It's not like one is asking for the Biden administration to figure out a way to break the laws of nature here. It's honestly a bit triggering to hear folks drop that line without any self awareness.

How about any alternative solution?
 

Coolluck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,400
How about any alternative solution?

The two the thread has realistically put forth are put them up in hotels and speed the process up.

The first has been shot down from a few angles and the second runs back into the "how?" Question.

We have an OP who said they don't want to argue about details and just want to play on emotional heartstrings which seemed to be the point of the initial article as well.

I'd like to know more about company contracted. Was the abuse allegation against them specifically and how they cut corners from their contract or were they fulfilling the contract of a cruel government?
 

Pekola

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,507
"Why don't you, the people who weren't chosen democratically for this task, know the alternatives of how to solve the issue?"

I guess we don't need elected officials if we're gonna have to figure all this shit out for ourselves, then.
 

Deleted member 62221

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 17, 2019
1,140
What's the point some people here are trying to make? that if you don't have an alternative plan right away then you can't demand better from your authorities?

Personally I'm pretty upset that the best company they could hire for this has a history of abuse, you are rewarding the fuckers that already made bank during Trump. Are you telling me there's no better alternatives?

And if the problem is that all these companies have history of abuses then the problem is sistemic and a public agency should treat it as a different sort of crisis. Let's say you had a natural disaster or a war and suddenly you had to relocate a lot of AMERICAN orphans? would you give these kids to this company and say "well, what you gonna do? do you have a better idea?".

As a southamerican this shit pisses me off. And no, I don't think there's something wrong with having an "emotional argument" here, we are talking about kids. Good for you if you think you are so above this issue that you can see it with cold eyes but you are just defending the old status quo and saying that things can't be better.
 

Deleted member 6230

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,118
I'm not going to look up your solutions for you. You made the argument something better is possible you bear the burden of supporting that allegation. I'm not doing your work for you.
Youre basically policing the conversation and silencing dissent if you're saying someone is not allowed to have grievances towards something if they can't also have a solution you deem acceptable. It's impossible to talk about what problems are actually here if that's a prerequisite for entering the conversation
 

Pollux

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
940
Youre basically policing the conversation and silencing dissent if you're saying someone is not allowed to have grievances towards something if they can't also have a solution you deem acceptable. It's impossible to talk about what problems are actually here if that's a prerequisite for entering the conversation
When someone says "we need a better solution" and I say "ok what" and they say "look it up" that's not policing the conversation. I deal with this shit everyday, so does BossAttack - try listening to the people that know why actually happening on the ground and not the ERA hot takes.
 

Deleted member 6230

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,118
When someone says "we need a better solution" and I say "ok what" and they say "look it up" that's not policing the conversation. I deal with this shit everyday, so does BossAttack - try listening to the people that know why actually happening on the ground and not the ERA hot takes.
Excuse me but I'm grown. I don't need you to tell me this, quite frankly.
 

Coolluck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,400
What's the point some people here are trying to make? that if you don't have an alternative plan right away then you can't demand better from your authorities?

Personally I'm pretty upset that the best company they could hire for this has a history of abuse, you are rewarding the fuckers that already made bank during Trump. Are you telling me there's no better alternatives?

And if the problem is that all these companies have history of abuses then the problem is sistemic and a public agency should treat it as a different sort of crisis. Let's say you had a natural disaster or a war and suddenly you had to relocate a lot of AMERICAN orphans? would you give these kids to this company and say "well, what you gonna do? do you have a better idea?".

As a southamerican this shit pisses me off. And no, I don't think there's something wrong with having an "emotional argument" here, we are talking about kids. Good for you if you think you are so above this issue that you can see it with cold eyes but you are just defending the old status quo and saying that things can't be better.

The point is that people should understand the situation rather than using tweets and misleading articles. Having seen multiple posters say I dislike this without understanding it is disheartening to see. Progress can be made and I'd argue is being made but if people don't bother to recognize it as such then nothing will ever be good enough except scenarios that don't exist.
 

Deleted member 62221

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 17, 2019
1,140
The point is that people should understand the situation rather than using tweets and misleading articles. Having seen multiple posters say I dislike this without understanding it is disheartening to see. Progress can be made and I'd argue is being made but if people don't bother to recognize it as such then nothing will ever be good enough except scenarios that don't exist.
And you understand the situation better than the activists and lawyers mentioned in the original article?

What's misleading about the company with a history of abuses being given a second chance?
 

antonz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,309
The process is now completing in about 1/3 the time the Trump Administration was doing so they are clearly trying more. There is also only so much speed you can accomplish. Some of these children have legitimate family and may only know they are in New York or Los Angeles so they then have to figure out who these people are and others are giving fishing expeditions.

Ideally family would be aware these kids were coming in the first place and we would not need shelters etc. I mean we do not even provide this for our own homeless
 
Jun 20, 2019
2,638
Treatment of vulnerable migrants and the responsibilities of states for their care is a matter of international concern and has been elaborated upon in several compacts and declarations, including the New York Declaration on Refugees and Migrants, the Global Refugee Compact, and the Global Compact for Safe, Orderly and Regular Migration. First point of order is whether or not these compacts apply to the circumstances of unaccompanied migrant children near the southern US land border. The answer is unambiguously "yes".

The UN maintains a précis on the commitments in the New York Declaration on Refugees and Migrants

New York Declaration

The New York Declaration for Refugees and Migrants expresses the political will of world leaders to save lives, protect rights and share responsibility on a global scale. At the UN Summit on 19 September, we expect to hear from world leaders about how each country will implement these...

Among the commitments are:
  • Work towards ending the practice of detaining children for the purposes of determining their migration status.
UNICEF has published a working paper on "Alternatives to Immigration Detention of Children" which offers proposals for the question that has been asked many times

The paper is worth reading in full. I will quote the opening summary in full because it addresses the issues of detention of unaccompanied migrant children from several directions. I have highlighted several sections that I think bear on the topic of the thread.

  • Immigration detention of children – whether they are travelling alone, or with their families - is never in their best interests, is a violation of their rights, and should be avoided at all costs.
  • Immigration detention is expensive, burdensome to administer and rarely fulfils its stated objectives as a migration management tool, and it does not act as a deterrent to would-be migrants.
  • The provisions on detention of children (as a 'measure of last resort') in the Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC) may apply to children in conflict with the law, but are not applicable to immigration proceedings and therefore cannot be used to justify immigration detention of children.
  • Child immigration detention cannot be justified solely on the basis of a child being unaccompanied or separated. When children are accompanied, the need to keep the family together also is not a valid reason to justify a child's detention.
  • To avoid the risk of detention for unaccompanied or separated children, the key mechanism is swift identification, referral to national child protection authorities and provision of a guardian.
  • Alternatives to detention for children and families include a range of options such as supported community placement, including placement with host families, bail schemes to ensure compliance with immigration proceedings or reporting requirements, or schemes whereby guarantors or sponsors agree to support the care and supervision of a migrant family in the community. The most effective alternatives involve case management provided by a range of actors – social workers, civil society or specialised staff from immigration authorities.
  • Many states in all regions of the world already implement a mixture of alternative measures for both unaccompanied children and families; states that have invested in alternatives have found them both effective and cost-efficient, with low rates of absconding and high rates of compliance with migration status determination processes, including removal orders.
  • The commitment of States to end the practice of immigration detention of children in the New York Declaration on Refugees and Migrants needs to be translated into concrete road maps supported by investment and political change.
  • To meet commitments in the Global Refugee Compact (GCR) and Global Compact for Safe, Orderly and Regular Migration (GCM), UNICEF calls upon states to develop national action plans to manage the transition from the use of detention to the use of alternatives and a prohibition of child immigration detention.
Later in the paper under a heading "Special Measures for Unaccompanied and Separated Children" is this statement:

For unaccompanied and separated children, once identified, the key mechanisms that states can put in place to prevent detention are referral to national child protection authorities, and provision of a guardian. An unaccompanied and separated child should be accorded the same protection, support and care that any national child deprived of parental care would be offered. No State would wish to deprive a child citizen of their liberty simply because they are without parental care. If the obligation of the CRC to treat all children on a territory in a non-discriminatory manner is to be met, then migrant and refugee children must receive the same treatment.​

I have to emphasize the bolded sentences above: Unaccompanied migrant children must receive exactly the same care as non-migrant children. This stance is damning for the US policy of detaining migrant children in separate facilities under conditions that are never applied to native children. The location, physical plant, supervision, and freedom of movement all differ markedly from conditions of non-migrant children. Above all is the policy of segregation of migrant children from other non-migrant children, and indeed from society at large.

The sentence highlighted in orange addresses the matter in a different way: lack of parental care does not justify taking away a child's liberty. Children are not to be confined as flight risks are locked in compounds for their own safety or any other reason; their status as citizens or aliens makes no difference.

Regarding the practical application of these obligations the UNICEF paper points to Zambia as a case of humane child migration policy. The Zambia program is described in another paper, Alternatives to Detention in Zambia.

A National Referral Mechanism (NRM) and associated Guidelineswere developed to effectively identify vulnerable migrants and refer them to appropriate authorities and services. According to the NRM, vulnerable migrants include refugees, asylum seekers, rejected asylum seekers, victims of trafficking (including 'presumed' and 'potential' trafficked persons), unaccompanied and separated children, stranded migrants and stateless migrants. The NRM process starts with an initial interview and registration of migrants by front-line officers.​
The purpose of this initial interview is to assess immediate protection/assistance needs and to collect and register basic bio-data. The migrant is then referred to the relevant authority for a more comprehensive assessment and status determination. The relevant authority may include the police (for victims of trafficking), the social welfare ministry (for unaccompanied or separated minors), the Office of the Commissioner for Refugees (for refugees, asylum seekers and refused asylum seekers) and the immigration authorities (for stranded migrants or stateless persons).​
After this comprehensive assessment, migrants are referred to relevant service providers to address short, medium and long-term needs and to appropriate authorities to facilitate case resolution. Following an initial piloting stage, the Guidelines have been rolled out across Zambia. More than 200 front-line officers have received training on the Guidelines and NRM.​

Note in particular that emphasis is placed on speed and that unaccompanied children are placed in the care of the Social Welfare Ministry. They are not placed under the supervision of border security, law enforcement, or the military. They are put into the same system as native Zambian children.

This is what I demand. I demand a processing system that will make preliminary determinations of status in a matter of hours, not days or weeks or months. I demand that border control thugs have absolute minimum contact with children and that unaccompanied children are handed over to our child welfare social services in a matter of hours, not days or weeks or months. I demand that from that point onward migrant children be treated exactly as native children are treated in similar circumstances of unknown or missing family. I demand they be placed in communities all across the country to minimize the risk of systemic failures in border communities. I demand that the children be placed with guardians as quickly as possible with no prejudice for their immigration status, that they attend public schools with their peers regardless of immigration status, and that they have freedom of movement and association that any other American child would enjoy.
 
Oct 25, 2017
21,442
Sweden
Treatment of vulnerable migrants and the responsibilities of states for their care is a matter of international concern and has been elaborated upon in several compacts and declarations, including the New York Declaration on Refugees and Migrants, the Global Refugee Compact, and the Global Compact for Safe, Orderly and Regular Migration. First point of order is whether or not these compacts apply to the circumstances of unaccompanied migrant children near the southern US land border. The answer is unambiguously "yes".

The UN maintains a précis on the commitments in the New York Declaration on Refugees and Migrants

New York Declaration

The New York Declaration for Refugees and Migrants expresses the political will of world leaders to save lives, protect rights and share responsibility on a global scale. At the UN Summit on 19 September, we expect to hear from world leaders about how each country will implement these...

Among the commitments are:
  • Work towards ending the practice of detaining children for the purposes of determining their migration status.
UNICEF has published a working paper on "Alternatives to Immigration Detention of Children" which offers proposals for the question that has been asked many times

The paper is worth reading in full. I will quote the opening summary in full because it addresses the issues of detention of unaccompanied migrant children from several directions. I have highlighted several sections that I think bear on the topic of the thread.

  • Immigration detention of children – whether they are travelling alone, or with their families - is never in their best interests, is a violation of their rights, and should be avoided at all costs.
  • Immigration detention is expensive, burdensome to administer and rarely fulfils its stated objectives as a migration management tool, and it does not act as a deterrent to would-be migrants.
  • The provisions on detention of children (as a 'measure of last resort') in the Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC) may apply to children in conflict with the law, but are not applicable to immigration proceedings and therefore cannot be used to justify immigration detention of children.
  • Child immigration detention cannot be justified solely on the basis of a child being unaccompanied or separated. When children are accompanied, the need to keep the family together also is not a valid reason to justify a child's detention.
  • To avoid the risk of detention for unaccompanied or separated children, the key mechanism is swift identification, referral to national child protection authorities and provision of a guardian.
  • Alternatives to detention for children and families include a range of options such as supported community placement, including placement with host families, bail schemes to ensure compliance with immigration proceedings or reporting requirements, or schemes whereby guarantors or sponsors agree to support the care and supervision of a migrant family in the community. The most effective alternatives involve case management provided by a range of actors – social workers, civil society or specialised staff from immigration authorities.
  • Many states in all regions of the world already implement a mixture of alternative measures for both unaccompanied children and families; states that have invested in alternatives have found them both effective and cost-efficient, with low rates of absconding and high rates of compliance with migration status determination processes, including removal orders.
  • The commitment of States to end the practice of immigration detention of children in the New York Declaration on Refugees and Migrants needs to be translated into concrete road maps supported by investment and political change.
  • To meet commitments in the Global Refugee Compact (GCR) and Global Compact for Safe, Orderly and Regular Migration (GCM), UNICEF calls upon states to develop national action plans to manage the transition from the use of detention to the use of alternatives and a prohibition of child immigration detention.
Later in the paper under a heading "Special Measures for Unaccompanied and Separated Children" is this statement:

For unaccompanied and separated children, once identified, the key mechanisms that states can put in place to prevent detention are referral to national child protection authorities, and provision of a guardian. An unaccompanied and separated child should be accorded the same protection, support and care that any national child deprived of parental care would be offered. No State would wish to deprive a child citizen of their liberty simply because they are without parental care. If the obligation of the CRC to treat all children on a territory in a non-discriminatory manner is to be met, then migrant and refugee children must receive the same treatment.​

I have to emphasize the bolded sentences above: Unaccompanied migrant children must receive exactly the same care as non-migrant children. This stance is damning for the US policy of detaining migrant children in separate facilities under conditions that are never applied to native children. The location, physical plant, supervision, and freedom of movement all differ markedly from conditions of non-migrant children. Above all is the policy of segregation of migrant children from other non-migrant children, and indeed from society at large.

The sentence highlighted in orange addresses the matter in a different way: lack of parental care does not justify taking away a child's liberty. Children are not to be confined as flight risks are locked in compounds for their own safety or any other reason; their status as citizens or aliens makes no difference.

Regarding the practical application of these obligations the UNICEF paper points to Zambia as a case of humane child migration policy. The Zambia program is described in another paper, Alternatives to Detention in Zambia.

A National Referral Mechanism (NRM) and associated Guidelineswere developed to effectively identify vulnerable migrants and refer them to appropriate authorities and services. According to the NRM, vulnerable migrants include refugees, asylum seekers, rejected asylum seekers, victims of trafficking (including 'presumed' and 'potential' trafficked persons), unaccompanied and separated children, stranded migrants and stateless migrants. The NRM process starts with an initial interview and registration of migrants by front-line officers.​
The purpose of this initial interview is to assess immediate protection/assistance needs and to collect and register basic bio-data. The migrant is then referred to the relevant authority for a more comprehensive assessment and status determination. The relevant authority may include the police (for victims of trafficking), the social welfare ministry (for unaccompanied or separated minors), the Office of the Commissioner for Refugees (for refugees, asylum seekers and refused asylum seekers) and the immigration authorities (for stranded migrants or stateless persons).​
After this comprehensive assessment, migrants are referred to relevant service providers to address short, medium and long-term needs and to appropriate authorities to facilitate case resolution. Following an initial piloting stage, the Guidelines have been rolled out across Zambia. More than 200 front-line officers have received training on the Guidelines and NRM.​

Note in particular that emphasis is placed on speed and that unaccompanied children are placed in the care of the Social Welfare Ministry. They are not placed under the supervision of border security, law enforcement, or the military. They are put into the same system as native Zambian children.

This is what I demand. I demand a processing system that will make preliminary determinations of status in a matter of hours, not days or weeks or months. I demand that border control thugs have absolute minimum contact with children and that unaccompanied children are handed over to our child welfare social services in a matter of hours, not days or weeks or months. I demand that from that point onward migrant children be treated exactly as native children are treated in similar circumstances of unknown or missing family. I demand they be placed in communities all across the country to minimize the risk of systemic failures in border communities. I demand that the children be placed with guardians as quickly as possible with no prejudice for their immigration status, that they attend public schools with their peers regardless of immigration status, and that they have freedom of movement and association that any other American child would enjoy.
great post. thank you.
 

Deleted member 30544

User Requested Account Closure
Banned
Nov 3, 2017
5,215
Treatment of vulnerable migrants and the responsibilities of states for their care is a matter of international concern and has been elaborated upon in several compacts and declarations, including the New York Declaration on Refugees and Migrants, the Global Refugee Compact, and the Global Compact for Safe, Orderly and Regular Migration. First point of order is whether or not these compacts apply to the circumstances of unaccompanied migrant children near the southern US land border. The answer is unambiguously "yes".

The UN maintains a précis on the commitments in the New York Declaration on Refugees and Migrants

New York Declaration

The New York Declaration for Refugees and Migrants expresses the political will of world leaders to save lives, protect rights and share responsibility on a global scale. At the UN Summit on 19 September, we expect to hear from world leaders about how each country will implement these...

Among the commitments are:
  • Work towards ending the practice of detaining children for the purposes of determining their migration status.
UNICEF has published a working paper on "Alternatives to Immigration Detention of Children" which offers proposals for the question that has been asked many times

The paper is worth reading in full. I will quote the opening summary in full because it addresses the issues of detention of unaccompanied migrant children from several directions. I have highlighted several sections that I think bear on the topic of the thread.

  • Immigration detention of children – whether they are travelling alone, or with their families - is never in their best interests, is a violation of their rights, and should be avoided at all costs.
  • Immigration detention is expensive, burdensome to administer and rarely fulfils its stated objectives as a migration management tool, and it does not act as a deterrent to would-be migrants.
  • The provisions on detention of children (as a 'measure of last resort') in the Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC) may apply to children in conflict with the law, but are not applicable to immigration proceedings and therefore cannot be used to justify immigration detention of children.
  • Child immigration detention cannot be justified solely on the basis of a child being unaccompanied or separated. When children are accompanied, the need to keep the family together also is not a valid reason to justify a child's detention.
  • To avoid the risk of detention for unaccompanied or separated children, the key mechanism is swift identification, referral to national child protection authorities and provision of a guardian.
  • Alternatives to detention for children and families include a range of options such as supported community placement, including placement with host families, bail schemes to ensure compliance with immigration proceedings or reporting requirements, or schemes whereby guarantors or sponsors agree to support the care and supervision of a migrant family in the community. The most effective alternatives involve case management provided by a range of actors – social workers, civil society or specialised staff from immigration authorities.
  • Many states in all regions of the world already implement a mixture of alternative measures for both unaccompanied children and families; states that have invested in alternatives have found them both effective and cost-efficient, with low rates of absconding and high rates of compliance with migration status determination processes, including removal orders.
  • The commitment of States to end the practice of immigration detention of children in the New York Declaration on Refugees and Migrants needs to be translated into concrete road maps supported by investment and political change.
  • To meet commitments in the Global Refugee Compact (GCR) and Global Compact for Safe, Orderly and Regular Migration (GCM), UNICEF calls upon states to develop national action plans to manage the transition from the use of detention to the use of alternatives and a prohibition of child immigration detention.
Later in the paper under a heading "Special Measures for Unaccompanied and Separated Children" is this statement:

For unaccompanied and separated children, once identified, the key mechanisms that states can put in place to prevent detention are referral to national child protection authorities, and provision of a guardian. An unaccompanied and separated child should be accorded the same protection, support and care that any national child deprived of parental care would be offered. No State would wish to deprive a child citizen of their liberty simply because they are without parental care. If the obligation of the CRC to treat all children on a territory in a non-discriminatory manner is to be met, then migrant and refugee children must receive the same treatment.​

I have to emphasize the bolded sentences above: Unaccompanied migrant children must receive exactly the same care as non-migrant children. This stance is damning for the US policy of detaining migrant children in separate facilities under conditions that are never applied to native children. The location, physical plant, supervision, and freedom of movement all differ markedly from conditions of non-migrant children. Above all is the policy of segregation of migrant children from other non-migrant children, and indeed from society at large.

The sentence highlighted in orange addresses the matter in a different way: lack of parental care does not justify taking away a child's liberty. Children are not to be confined as flight risks are locked in compounds for their own safety or any other reason; their status as citizens or aliens makes no difference.

Regarding the practical application of these obligations the UNICEF paper points to Zambia as a case of humane child migration policy. The Zambia program is described in another paper, Alternatives to Detention in Zambia.

A National Referral Mechanism (NRM) and associated Guidelineswere developed to effectively identify vulnerable migrants and refer them to appropriate authorities and services. According to the NRM, vulnerable migrants include refugees, asylum seekers, rejected asylum seekers, victims of trafficking (including 'presumed' and 'potential' trafficked persons), unaccompanied and separated children, stranded migrants and stateless migrants. The NRM process starts with an initial interview and registration of migrants by front-line officers.​
The purpose of this initial interview is to assess immediate protection/assistance needs and to collect and register basic bio-data. The migrant is then referred to the relevant authority for a more comprehensive assessment and status determination. The relevant authority may include the police (for victims of trafficking), the social welfare ministry (for unaccompanied or separated minors), the Office of the Commissioner for Refugees (for refugees, asylum seekers and refused asylum seekers) and the immigration authorities (for stranded migrants or stateless persons).​
After this comprehensive assessment, migrants are referred to relevant service providers to address short, medium and long-term needs and to appropriate authorities to facilitate case resolution. Following an initial piloting stage, the Guidelines have been rolled out across Zambia. More than 200 front-line officers have received training on the Guidelines and NRM.​

Note in particular that emphasis is placed on speed and that unaccompanied children are placed in the care of the Social Welfare Ministry. They are not placed under the supervision of border security, law enforcement, or the military. They are put into the same system as native Zambian children.

This is what I demand. I demand a processing system that will make preliminary determinations of status in a matter of hours, not days or weeks or months. I demand that border control thugs have absolute minimum contact with children and that unaccompanied children are handed over to our child welfare social services in a matter of hours, not days or weeks or months. I demand that from that point onward migrant children be treated exactly as native children are treated in similar circumstances of unknown or missing family. I demand they be placed in communities all across the country to minimize the risk of systemic failures in border communities. I demand that the children be placed with guardians as quickly as possible with no prejudice for their immigration status, that they attend public schools with their peers regardless of immigration status, and that they have freedom of movement and association that any other American child would enjoy.
What an excellent and informative post. I hope it shuts some mouths in this thread (a very hypocrite and vocal mouths)
 

Amiablepercy

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
3,587
California
Treatment of vulnerable migrants and the responsibilities of states for their care is a matter of international concern and has been elaborated upon in several compacts and declarations, including the New York Declaration on Refugees and Migrants, the Global Refugee Compact, and the Global Compact for Safe, Orderly and Regular Migration. First point of order is whether or not these compacts apply to the circumstances of unaccompanied migrant children near the southern US land border. The answer is unambiguously "yes".

The UN maintains a précis on the commitments in the New York Declaration on Refugees and Migrants

New York Declaration

The New York Declaration for Refugees and Migrants expresses the political will of world leaders to save lives, protect rights and share responsibility on a global scale. At the UN Summit on 19 September, we expect to hear from world leaders about how each country will implement these...

Among the commitments are:
  • Work towards ending the practice of detaining children for the purposes of determining their migration status.
UNICEF has published a working paper on "Alternatives to Immigration Detention of Children" which offers proposals for the question that has been asked many times

The paper is worth reading in full. I will quote the opening summary in full because it addresses the issues of detention of unaccompanied migrant children from several directions. I have highlighted several sections that I think bear on the topic of the thread.

  • Immigration detention of children – whether they are travelling alone, or with their families - is never in their best interests, is a violation of their rights, and should be avoided at all costs.
  • Immigration detention is expensive, burdensome to administer and rarely fulfils its stated objectives as a migration management tool, and it does not act as a deterrent to would-be migrants.
  • The provisions on detention of children (as a 'measure of last resort') in the Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC) may apply to children in conflict with the law, but are not applicable to immigration proceedings and therefore cannot be used to justify immigration detention of children.
  • Child immigration detention cannot be justified solely on the basis of a child being unaccompanied or separated. When children are accompanied, the need to keep the family together also is not a valid reason to justify a child's detention.
  • To avoid the risk of detention for unaccompanied or separated children, the key mechanism is swift identification, referral to national child protection authorities and provision of a guardian.
  • Alternatives to detention for children and families include a range of options such as supported community placement, including placement with host families, bail schemes to ensure compliance with immigration proceedings or reporting requirements, or schemes whereby guarantors or sponsors agree to support the care and supervision of a migrant family in the community. The most effective alternatives involve case management provided by a range of actors – social workers, civil society or specialised staff from immigration authorities.
  • Many states in all regions of the world already implement a mixture of alternative measures for both unaccompanied children and families; states that have invested in alternatives have found them both effective and cost-efficient, with low rates of absconding and high rates of compliance with migration status determination processes, including removal orders.
  • The commitment of States to end the practice of immigration detention of children in the New York Declaration on Refugees and Migrants needs to be translated into concrete road maps supported by investment and political change.
  • To meet commitments in the Global Refugee Compact (GCR) and Global Compact for Safe, Orderly and Regular Migration (GCM), UNICEF calls upon states to develop national action plans to manage the transition from the use of detention to the use of alternatives and a prohibition of child immigration detention.
Later in the paper under a heading "Special Measures for Unaccompanied and Separated Children" is this statement:

For unaccompanied and separated children, once identified, the key mechanisms that states can put in place to prevent detention are referral to national child protection authorities, and provision of a guardian. An unaccompanied and separated child should be accorded the same protection, support and care that any national child deprived of parental care would be offered. No State would wish to deprive a child citizen of their liberty simply because they are without parental care. If the obligation of the CRC to treat all children on a territory in a non-discriminatory manner is to be met, then migrant and refugee children must receive the same treatment.​

I have to emphasize the bolded sentences above: Unaccompanied migrant children must receive exactly the same care as non-migrant children. This stance is damning for the US policy of detaining migrant children in separate facilities under conditions that are never applied to native children. The location, physical plant, supervision, and freedom of movement all differ markedly from conditions of non-migrant children. Above all is the policy of segregation of migrant children from other non-migrant children, and indeed from society at large.

The sentence highlighted in orange addresses the matter in a different way: lack of parental care does not justify taking away a child's liberty. Children are not to be confined as flight risks are locked in compounds for their own safety or any other reason; their status as citizens or aliens makes no difference.

Regarding the practical application of these obligations the UNICEF paper points to Zambia as a case of humane child migration policy. The Zambia program is described in another paper, Alternatives to Detention in Zambia.

A National Referral Mechanism (NRM) and associated Guidelineswere developed to effectively identify vulnerable migrants and refer them to appropriate authorities and services. According to the NRM, vulnerable migrants include refugees, asylum seekers, rejected asylum seekers, victims of trafficking (including 'presumed' and 'potential' trafficked persons), unaccompanied and separated children, stranded migrants and stateless migrants. The NRM process starts with an initial interview and registration of migrants by front-line officers.​
The purpose of this initial interview is to assess immediate protection/assistance needs and to collect and register basic bio-data. The migrant is then referred to the relevant authority for a more comprehensive assessment and status determination. The relevant authority may include the police (for victims of trafficking), the social welfare ministry (for unaccompanied or separated minors), the Office of the Commissioner for Refugees (for refugees, asylum seekers and refused asylum seekers) and the immigration authorities (for stranded migrants or stateless persons).​
After this comprehensive assessment, migrants are referred to relevant service providers to address short, medium and long-term needs and to appropriate authorities to facilitate case resolution. Following an initial piloting stage, the Guidelines have been rolled out across Zambia. More than 200 front-line officers have received training on the Guidelines and NRM.​

Note in particular that emphasis is placed on speed and that unaccompanied children are placed in the care of the Social Welfare Ministry. They are not placed under the supervision of border security, law enforcement, or the military. They are put into the same system as native Zambian children.

This is what I demand. I demand a processing system that will make preliminary determinations of status in a matter of hours, not days or weeks or months. I demand that border control thugs have absolute minimum contact with children and that unaccompanied children are handed over to our child welfare social services in a matter of hours, not days or weeks or months. I demand that from that point onward migrant children be treated exactly as native children are treated in similar circumstances of unknown or missing family. I demand they be placed in communities all across the country to minimize the risk of systemic failures in border communities. I demand that the children be placed with guardians as quickly as possible with no prejudice for their immigration status, that they attend public schools with their peers regardless of immigration status, and that they have freedom of movement and association that any other American child would enjoy.

So informative and clear. Thank you so much for this.

Speaking an Latin immigrant who naturalized as a small child this thread has been quite a read to say the least. Sigh. EtcetEra is such a strange place.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,327
Kids have to sleep somewhere while a safe, responsible adult is located.

What are the conditions like in this place?

what do we do with unaccompanied minors who aren't immigrating? Whatever this is, why cant We do it for kids at the border?
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
Treatment of vulnerable migrants and the responsibilities of states for their care is a matter of international concern and has been elaborated upon in several compacts and declarations, including the New York Declaration on Refugees and Migrants, the Global Refugee Compact, and the Global Compact for Safe, Orderly and Regular Migration. First point of order is whether or not these compacts apply to the circumstances of unaccompanied migrant children near the southern US land border. The answer is unambiguously "yes".

The UN maintains a précis on the commitments in the New York Declaration on Refugees and Migrants

New York Declaration

The New York Declaration for Refugees and Migrants expresses the political will of world leaders to save lives, protect rights and share responsibility on a global scale. At the UN Summit on 19 September, we expect to hear from world leaders about how each country will implement these...

Among the commitments are:
  • Work towards ending the practice of detaining children for the purposes of determining their migration status.
UNICEF has published a working paper on "Alternatives to Immigration Detention of Children" which offers proposals for the question that has been asked many times

The paper is worth reading in full. I will quote the opening summary in full because it addresses the issues of detention of unaccompanied migrant children from several directions. I have highlighted several sections that I think bear on the topic of the thread.

  • Immigration detention of children – whether they are travelling alone, or with their families - is never in their best interests, is a violation of their rights, and should be avoided at all costs.
  • Immigration detention is expensive, burdensome to administer and rarely fulfils its stated objectives as a migration management tool, and it does not act as a deterrent to would-be migrants.
  • The provisions on detention of children (as a 'measure of last resort') in the Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC) may apply to children in conflict with the law, but are not applicable to immigration proceedings and therefore cannot be used to justify immigration detention of children.
  • Child immigration detention cannot be justified solely on the basis of a child being unaccompanied or separated. When children are accompanied, the need to keep the family together also is not a valid reason to justify a child's detention.
  • To avoid the risk of detention for unaccompanied or separated children, the key mechanism is swift identification, referral to national child protection authorities and provision of a guardian.
  • Alternatives to detention for children and families include a range of options such as supported community placement, including placement with host families, bail schemes to ensure compliance with immigration proceedings or reporting requirements, or schemes whereby guarantors or sponsors agree to support the care and supervision of a migrant family in the community. The most effective alternatives involve case management provided by a range of actors – social workers, civil society or specialised staff from immigration authorities.
  • Many states in all regions of the world already implement a mixture of alternative measures for both unaccompanied children and families; states that have invested in alternatives have found them both effective and cost-efficient, with low rates of absconding and high rates of compliance with migration status determination processes, including removal orders.
  • The commitment of States to end the practice of immigration detention of children in the New York Declaration on Refugees and Migrants needs to be translated into concrete road maps supported by investment and political change.
  • To meet commitments in the Global Refugee Compact (GCR) and Global Compact for Safe, Orderly and Regular Migration (GCM), UNICEF calls upon states to develop national action plans to manage the transition from the use of detention to the use of alternatives and a prohibition of child immigration detention.
Later in the paper under a heading "Special Measures for Unaccompanied and Separated Children" is this statement:

For unaccompanied and separated children, once identified, the key mechanisms that states can put in place to prevent detention are referral to national child protection authorities, and provision of a guardian. An unaccompanied and separated child should be accorded the same protection, support and care that any national child deprived of parental care would be offered. No State would wish to deprive a child citizen of their liberty simply because they are without parental care. If the obligation of the CRC to treat all children on a territory in a non-discriminatory manner is to be met, then migrant and refugee children must receive the same treatment.​

I have to emphasize the bolded sentences above: Unaccompanied migrant children must receive exactly the same care as non-migrant children. This stance is damning for the US policy of detaining migrant children in separate facilities under conditions that are never applied to native children. The location, physical plant, supervision, and freedom of movement all differ markedly from conditions of non-migrant children. Above all is the policy of segregation of migrant children from other non-migrant children, and indeed from society at large.

The sentence highlighted in orange addresses the matter in a different way: lack of parental care does not justify taking away a child's liberty. Children are not to be confined as flight risks are locked in compounds for their own safety or any other reason; their status as citizens or aliens makes no difference.

Regarding the practical application of these obligations the UNICEF paper points to Zambia as a case of humane child migration policy. The Zambia program is described in another paper, Alternatives to Detention in Zambia.

A National Referral Mechanism (NRM) and associated Guidelineswere developed to effectively identify vulnerable migrants and refer them to appropriate authorities and services. According to the NRM, vulnerable migrants include refugees, asylum seekers, rejected asylum seekers, victims of trafficking (including 'presumed' and 'potential' trafficked persons), unaccompanied and separated children, stranded migrants and stateless migrants. The NRM process starts with an initial interview and registration of migrants by front-line officers.​
The purpose of this initial interview is to assess immediate protection/assistance needs and to collect and register basic bio-data. The migrant is then referred to the relevant authority for a more comprehensive assessment and status determination. The relevant authority may include the police (for victims of trafficking), the social welfare ministry (for unaccompanied or separated minors), the Office of the Commissioner for Refugees (for refugees, asylum seekers and refused asylum seekers) and the immigration authorities (for stranded migrants or stateless persons).​
After this comprehensive assessment, migrants are referred to relevant service providers to address short, medium and long-term needs and to appropriate authorities to facilitate case resolution. Following an initial piloting stage, the Guidelines have been rolled out across Zambia. More than 200 front-line officers have received training on the Guidelines and NRM.​

Note in particular that emphasis is placed on speed and that unaccompanied children are placed in the care of the Social Welfare Ministry. They are not placed under the supervision of border security, law enforcement, or the military. They are put into the same system as native Zambian children.

This is what I demand. I demand a processing system that will make preliminary determinations of status in a matter of hours, not days or weeks or months. I demand that border control thugs have absolute minimum contact with children and that unaccompanied children are handed over to our child welfare social services in a matter of hours, not days or weeks or months. I demand that from that point onward migrant children be treated exactly as native children are treated in similar circumstances of unknown or missing family. I demand they be placed in communities all across the country to minimize the risk of systemic failures in border communities. I demand that the children be placed with guardians as quickly as possible with no prejudice for their immigration status, that they attend public schools with their peers regardless of immigration status, and that they have freedom of movement and association that any other American child would enjoy.
Thanks for this post. This thread has been unsurprisingly vile, but at least this is starting to make up for it.
 

bluexy

Comics Enabler & Freelance Games Journalist
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
14,513
It's gaslighting to demand people have a "solution" ready in order for their criticism to be valid.
 

shotopunx

Member
Nov 21, 2017
1,588
Dublin, Ireland
Seems to me a lot of posters can't deal with the fact that the US is rotten with or without Trump.

In terms of solutions:

Short Term: Provide better housing and care. No reason to treat these unaccompanied children differently just because they're not citizens. Dont lease out this work to private companies looking for profits. Dont lease out this work to abusers.

Long Term: Accept responsibility for the actions the US took that led to the poor conditions in central America driving immigration. Take real, actionable steps to improve the living conditions for the region. Maybe give the aid you give to Israel to that region instead. Maybe stop fucking around in the middle east and put those resources into an improvement plan for Central America.

Most importantly, accept that the US is up to its neck in blood, and always has been. Strive to make up for that.
 

SpaceCrystal

Banned
Apr 1, 2019
7,714
Nobody in that article, including the activists, offers an alternative, though. What would that look like? Immediately allowing the children to roam the U.S. unaccompanied? Immediately having any stateside family pick up the kids (how would you even find/verify)? Sending them back to Mexico?

Does everyone understand these children are not being separated from their parents forcefully like the Trump administration was doing?

These facilities are far from perfect, but they are for unaccompanied minors. Obviously they should be very transparent and if they aren't, they should be appropriately criticized. But without passage of the immigration bill, there's not much money for building new facilities.

Exactly. It's not an easy thing.

Seems to me a lot of posters can't deal with the fact that the US is rotten with or without Trump.

In terms of solutions:

Short Term: Provide better housing and care. No reason to treat these unaccompanied children differently just because they're not citizens. Don't lease out this work to private companies looking for profits. Don't lease out this work to abusers.

Long Term: Accept responsibility for the actions the US took that led to the poor conditions in central America driving immigration. Take real, actionable steps to improve the living conditions for the region. Maybe give the aid you give to Israel to that region instead. Maybe stop fucking around in the middle east and put those resources into an improvement plan for Central America.

Most importantly, accept that the US is up to its neck in blood, and always has been. Strive to make up for that.

Also this.
 

Aran

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
354
Treatment of vulnerable migrants and the responsibilities of states for their care is a matter of international concern and has been elaborated upon in several compacts and declarations, including the New York Declaration on Refugees and Migrants, the Global Refugee Compact, and the Global Compact for Safe, Orderly and Regular Migration. First point of order is whether or not these compacts apply to the circumstances of unaccompanied migrant children near the southern US land border. The answer is unambiguously "yes".

The UN maintains a précis on the commitments in the New York Declaration on Refugees and Migrants

New York Declaration

The New York Declaration for Refugees and Migrants expresses the political will of world leaders to save lives, protect rights and share responsibility on a global scale. At the UN Summit on 19 September, we expect to hear from world leaders about how each country will implement these...

Among the commitments are:
  • Work towards ending the practice of detaining children for the purposes of determining their migration status.
UNICEF has published a working paper on "Alternatives to Immigration Detention of Children" which offers proposals for the question that has been asked many times

The paper is worth reading in full. I will quote the opening summary in full because it addresses the issues of detention of unaccompanied migrant children from several directions. I have highlighted several sections that I think bear on the topic of the thread.

  • Immigration detention of children – whether they are travelling alone, or with their families - is never in their best interests, is a violation of their rights, and should be avoided at all costs.
  • Immigration detention is expensive, burdensome to administer and rarely fulfils its stated objectives as a migration management tool, and it does not act as a deterrent to would-be migrants.
  • The provisions on detention of children (as a 'measure of last resort') in the Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC) may apply to children in conflict with the law, but are not applicable to immigration proceedings and therefore cannot be used to justify immigration detention of children.
  • Child immigration detention cannot be justified solely on the basis of a child being unaccompanied or separated. When children are accompanied, the need to keep the family together also is not a valid reason to justify a child's detention.
  • To avoid the risk of detention for unaccompanied or separated children, the key mechanism is swift identification, referral to national child protection authorities and provision of a guardian.
  • Alternatives to detention for children and families include a range of options such as supported community placement, including placement with host families, bail schemes to ensure compliance with immigration proceedings or reporting requirements, or schemes whereby guarantors or sponsors agree to support the care and supervision of a migrant family in the community. The most effective alternatives involve case management provided by a range of actors – social workers, civil society or specialised staff from immigration authorities.
  • Many states in all regions of the world already implement a mixture of alternative measures for both unaccompanied children and families; states that have invested in alternatives have found them both effective and cost-efficient, with low rates of absconding and high rates of compliance with migration status determination processes, including removal orders.
  • The commitment of States to end the practice of immigration detention of children in the New York Declaration on Refugees and Migrants needs to be translated into concrete road maps supported by investment and political change.
  • To meet commitments in the Global Refugee Compact (GCR) and Global Compact for Safe, Orderly and Regular Migration (GCM), UNICEF calls upon states to develop national action plans to manage the transition from the use of detention to the use of alternatives and a prohibition of child immigration detention.
Later in the paper under a heading "Special Measures for Unaccompanied and Separated Children" is this statement:

For unaccompanied and separated children, once identified, the key mechanisms that states can put in place to prevent detention are referral to national child protection authorities, and provision of a guardian. An unaccompanied and separated child should be accorded the same protection, support and care that any national child deprived of parental care would be offered. No State would wish to deprive a child citizen of their liberty simply because they are without parental care. If the obligation of the CRC to treat all children on a territory in a non-discriminatory manner is to be met, then migrant and refugee children must receive the same treatment.​

I have to emphasize the bolded sentences above: Unaccompanied migrant children must receive exactly the same care as non-migrant children. This stance is damning for the US policy of detaining migrant children in separate facilities under conditions that are never applied to native children. The location, physical plant, supervision, and freedom of movement all differ markedly from conditions of non-migrant children. Above all is the policy of segregation of migrant children from other non-migrant children, and indeed from society at large.

The sentence highlighted in orange addresses the matter in a different way: lack of parental care does not justify taking away a child's liberty. Children are not to be confined as flight risks are locked in compounds for their own safety or any other reason; their status as citizens or aliens makes no difference.

Regarding the practical application of these obligations the UNICEF paper points to Zambia as a case of humane child migration policy. The Zambia program is described in another paper, Alternatives to Detention in Zambia.

A National Referral Mechanism (NRM) and associated Guidelineswere developed to effectively identify vulnerable migrants and refer them to appropriate authorities and services. According to the NRM, vulnerable migrants include refugees, asylum seekers, rejected asylum seekers, victims of trafficking (including 'presumed' and 'potential' trafficked persons), unaccompanied and separated children, stranded migrants and stateless migrants. The NRM process starts with an initial interview and registration of migrants by front-line officers.​
The purpose of this initial interview is to assess immediate protection/assistance needs and to collect and register basic bio-data. The migrant is then referred to the relevant authority for a more comprehensive assessment and status determination. The relevant authority may include the police (for victims of trafficking), the social welfare ministry (for unaccompanied or separated minors), the Office of the Commissioner for Refugees (for refugees, asylum seekers and refused asylum seekers) and the immigration authorities (for stranded migrants or stateless persons).​
After this comprehensive assessment, migrants are referred to relevant service providers to address short, medium and long-term needs and to appropriate authorities to facilitate case resolution. Following an initial piloting stage, the Guidelines have been rolled out across Zambia. More than 200 front-line officers have received training on the Guidelines and NRM.​

Note in particular that emphasis is placed on speed and that unaccompanied children are placed in the care of the Social Welfare Ministry. They are not placed under the supervision of border security, law enforcement, or the military. They are put into the same system as native Zambian children.

This is what I demand. I demand a processing system that will make preliminary determinations of status in a matter of hours, not days or weeks or months. I demand that border control thugs have absolute minimum contact with children and that unaccompanied children are handed over to our child welfare social services in a matter of hours, not days or weeks or months. I demand that from that point onward migrant children be treated exactly as native children are treated in similar circumstances of unknown or missing family. I demand they be placed in communities all across the country to minimize the risk of systemic failures in border communities. I demand that the children be placed with guardians as quickly as possible with no prejudice for their immigration status, that they attend public schools with their peers regardless of immigration status, and that they have freedom of movement and association that any other American child would enjoy.
Great post, hopefully some on this thread learn by reading this and stop trying to defend the vile shit that the US is doing.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,296
new jersey
The "well, what alternative do you have to locking kids up in detention camps, huh?" arguments are making me dizzy.

As if there are not any other solutions than putting kids behind bars in a facility established under Trump and overseen by a company with a history of abuse and mistreatment of its prisoners. The "this is necessary" view is extremely limited and ends up justifying and rationalizing very inhumane practices that we all were against under Trump.
It feels like most people don't actually care about the kids, just got outraged when Trump did it.

I hope Biden does better. Truly do. I voted for him. I do not want to go backwards.
 

CerealKi11a

Chicken Chaser
Member
May 3, 2018
1,956
Treatment of vulnerable migrants and the responsibilities of states for their care is a matter of international concern and has been elaborated upon in several compacts and declarations, including the New York Declaration on Refugees and Migrants, the Global Refugee Compact, and the Global Compact for Safe, Orderly and Regular Migration. First point of order is whether or not these compacts apply to the circumstances of unaccompanied migrant children near the southern US land border. The answer is unambiguously "yes".

The UN maintains a précis on the commitments in the New York Declaration on Refugees and Migrants

New York Declaration

The New York Declaration for Refugees and Migrants expresses the political will of world leaders to save lives, protect rights and share responsibility on a global scale. At the UN Summit on 19 September, we expect to hear from world leaders about how each country will implement these...

Among the commitments are:
  • Work towards ending the practice of detaining children for the purposes of determining their migration status.
UNICEF has published a working paper on "Alternatives to Immigration Detention of Children" which offers proposals for the question that has been asked many times

The paper is worth reading in full. I will quote the opening summary in full because it addresses the issues of detention of unaccompanied migrant children from several directions. I have highlighted several sections that I think bear on the topic of the thread.

  • Immigration detention of children – whether they are travelling alone, or with their families - is never in their best interests, is a violation of their rights, and should be avoided at all costs.
  • Immigration detention is expensive, burdensome to administer and rarely fulfils its stated objectives as a migration management tool, and it does not act as a deterrent to would-be migrants.
  • The provisions on detention of children (as a 'measure of last resort') in the Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC) may apply to children in conflict with the law, but are not applicable to immigration proceedings and therefore cannot be used to justify immigration detention of children.
  • Child immigration detention cannot be justified solely on the basis of a child being unaccompanied or separated. When children are accompanied, the need to keep the family together also is not a valid reason to justify a child's detention.
  • To avoid the risk of detention for unaccompanied or separated children, the key mechanism is swift identification, referral to national child protection authorities and provision of a guardian.
  • Alternatives to detention for children and families include a range of options such as supported community placement, including placement with host families, bail schemes to ensure compliance with immigration proceedings or reporting requirements, or schemes whereby guarantors or sponsors agree to support the care and supervision of a migrant family in the community. The most effective alternatives involve case management provided by a range of actors – social workers, civil society or specialised staff from immigration authorities.
  • Many states in all regions of the world already implement a mixture of alternative measures for both unaccompanied children and families; states that have invested in alternatives have found them both effective and cost-efficient, with low rates of absconding and high rates of compliance with migration status determination processes, including removal orders.
  • The commitment of States to end the practice of immigration detention of children in the New York Declaration on Refugees and Migrants needs to be translated into concrete road maps supported by investment and political change.
  • To meet commitments in the Global Refugee Compact (GCR) and Global Compact for Safe, Orderly and Regular Migration (GCM), UNICEF calls upon states to develop national action plans to manage the transition from the use of detention to the use of alternatives and a prohibition of child immigration detention.
Later in the paper under a heading "Special Measures for Unaccompanied and Separated Children" is this statement:

For unaccompanied and separated children, once identified, the key mechanisms that states can put in place to prevent detention are referral to national child protection authorities, and provision of a guardian. An unaccompanied and separated child should be accorded the same protection, support and care that any national child deprived of parental care would be offered. No State would wish to deprive a child citizen of their liberty simply because they are without parental care. If the obligation of the CRC to treat all children on a territory in a non-discriminatory manner is to be met, then migrant and refugee children must receive the same treatment.​

I have to emphasize the bolded sentences above: Unaccompanied migrant children must receive exactly the same care as non-migrant children. This stance is damning for the US policy of detaining migrant children in separate facilities under conditions that are never applied to native children. The location, physical plant, supervision, and freedom of movement all differ markedly from conditions of non-migrant children. Above all is the policy of segregation of migrant children from other non-migrant children, and indeed from society at large.

The sentence highlighted in orange addresses the matter in a different way: lack of parental care does not justify taking away a child's liberty. Children are not to be confined as flight risks are locked in compounds for their own safety or any other reason; their status as citizens or aliens makes no difference.

Regarding the practical application of these obligations the UNICEF paper points to Zambia as a case of humane child migration policy. The Zambia program is described in another paper, Alternatives to Detention in Zambia.

A National Referral Mechanism (NRM) and associated Guidelineswere developed to effectively identify vulnerable migrants and refer them to appropriate authorities and services. According to the NRM, vulnerable migrants include refugees, asylum seekers, rejected asylum seekers, victims of trafficking (including 'presumed' and 'potential' trafficked persons), unaccompanied and separated children, stranded migrants and stateless migrants. The NRM process starts with an initial interview and registration of migrants by front-line officers.​
The purpose of this initial interview is to assess immediate protection/assistance needs and to collect and register basic bio-data. The migrant is then referred to the relevant authority for a more comprehensive assessment and status determination. The relevant authority may include the police (for victims of trafficking), the social welfare ministry (for unaccompanied or separated minors), the Office of the Commissioner for Refugees (for refugees, asylum seekers and refused asylum seekers) and the immigration authorities (for stranded migrants or stateless persons).​
After this comprehensive assessment, migrants are referred to relevant service providers to address short, medium and long-term needs and to appropriate authorities to facilitate case resolution. Following an initial piloting stage, the Guidelines have been rolled out across Zambia. More than 200 front-line officers have received training on the Guidelines and NRM.​

Note in particular that emphasis is placed on speed and that unaccompanied children are placed in the care of the Social Welfare Ministry. They are not placed under the supervision of border security, law enforcement, or the military. They are put into the same system as native Zambian children.

This is what I demand. I demand a processing system that will make preliminary determinations of status in a matter of hours, not days or weeks or months. I demand that border control thugs have absolute minimum contact with children and that unaccompanied children are handed over to our child welfare social services in a matter of hours, not days or weeks or months. I demand that from that point onward migrant children be treated exactly as native children are treated in similar circumstances of unknown or missing family. I demand they be placed in communities all across the country to minimize the risk of systemic failures in border communities. I demand that the children be placed with guardians as quickly as possible with no prejudice for their immigration status, that they attend public schools with their peers regardless of immigration status, and that they have freedom of movement and association that any other American child would enjoy.
This is great. Place these kids into 5 star hotels, not in a fucking "detention facility"

I'm very disappointed that now that Trump is gone, people are starting to find ways to justify this system. It wasn't ok five months ago, and it isn't ok now. Full stop.
 
OP
OP
Samiya

Samiya

Alt Account
Banned
Nov 30, 2019
4,811
Treatment of vulnerable migrants and the responsibilities of states for their care is a matter of international concern and has been elaborated upon in several compacts and declarations, including the New York Declaration on Refugees and Migrants, the Global Refugee Compact, and the Global Compact for Safe, Orderly and Regular Migration. First point of order is whether or not these compacts apply to the circumstances of unaccompanied migrant children near the southern US land border. The answer is unambiguously "yes".

The UN maintains a précis on the commitments in the New York Declaration on Refugees and Migrants

New York Declaration

The New York Declaration for Refugees and Migrants expresses the political will of world leaders to save lives, protect rights and share responsibility on a global scale. At the UN Summit on 19 September, we expect to hear from world leaders about how each country will implement these...

Among the commitments are:
  • Work towards ending the practice of detaining children for the purposes of determining their migration status.
UNICEF has published a working paper on "Alternatives to Immigration Detention of Children" which offers proposals for the question that has been asked many times

The paper is worth reading in full. I will quote the opening summary in full because it addresses the issues of detention of unaccompanied migrant children from several directions. I have highlighted several sections that I think bear on the topic of the thread.

  • Immigration detention of children – whether they are travelling alone, or with their families - is never in their best interests, is a violation of their rights, and should be avoided at all costs.
  • Immigration detention is expensive, burdensome to administer and rarely fulfils its stated objectives as a migration management tool, and it does not act as a deterrent to would-be migrants.
  • The provisions on detention of children (as a 'measure of last resort') in the Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC) may apply to children in conflict with the law, but are not applicable to immigration proceedings and therefore cannot be used to justify immigration detention of children.
  • Child immigration detention cannot be justified solely on the basis of a child being unaccompanied or separated. When children are accompanied, the need to keep the family together also is not a valid reason to justify a child's detention.
  • To avoid the risk of detention for unaccompanied or separated children, the key mechanism is swift identification, referral to national child protection authorities and provision of a guardian.
  • Alternatives to detention for children and families include a range of options such as supported community placement, including placement with host families, bail schemes to ensure compliance with immigration proceedings or reporting requirements, or schemes whereby guarantors or sponsors agree to support the care and supervision of a migrant family in the community. The most effective alternatives involve case management provided by a range of actors – social workers, civil society or specialised staff from immigration authorities.
  • Many states in all regions of the world already implement a mixture of alternative measures for both unaccompanied children and families; states that have invested in alternatives have found them both effective and cost-efficient, with low rates of absconding and high rates of compliance with migration status determination processes, including removal orders.
  • The commitment of States to end the practice of immigration detention of children in the New York Declaration on Refugees and Migrants needs to be translated into concrete road maps supported by investment and political change.
  • To meet commitments in the Global Refugee Compact (GCR) and Global Compact for Safe, Orderly and Regular Migration (GCM), UNICEF calls upon states to develop national action plans to manage the transition from the use of detention to the use of alternatives and a prohibition of child immigration detention.
Later in the paper under a heading "Special Measures for Unaccompanied and Separated Children" is this statement:

For unaccompanied and separated children, once identified, the key mechanisms that states can put in place to prevent detention are referral to national child protection authorities, and provision of a guardian. An unaccompanied and separated child should be accorded the same protection, support and care that any national child deprived of parental care would be offered. No State would wish to deprive a child citizen of their liberty simply because they are without parental care. If the obligation of the CRC to treat all children on a territory in a non-discriminatory manner is to be met, then migrant and refugee children must receive the same treatment.​

I have to emphasize the bolded sentences above: Unaccompanied migrant children must receive exactly the same care as non-migrant children. This stance is damning for the US policy of detaining migrant children in separate facilities under conditions that are never applied to native children. The location, physical plant, supervision, and freedom of movement all differ markedly from conditions of non-migrant children. Above all is the policy of segregation of migrant children from other non-migrant children, and indeed from society at large.

The sentence highlighted in orange addresses the matter in a different way: lack of parental care does not justify taking away a child's liberty. Children are not to be confined as flight risks are locked in compounds for their own safety or any other reason; their status as citizens or aliens makes no difference.

Regarding the practical application of these obligations the UNICEF paper points to Zambia as a case of humane child migration policy. The Zambia program is described in another paper, Alternatives to Detention in Zambia.

A National Referral Mechanism (NRM) and associated Guidelineswere developed to effectively identify vulnerable migrants and refer them to appropriate authorities and services. According to the NRM, vulnerable migrants include refugees, asylum seekers, rejected asylum seekers, victims of trafficking (including 'presumed' and 'potential' trafficked persons), unaccompanied and separated children, stranded migrants and stateless migrants. The NRM process starts with an initial interview and registration of migrants by front-line officers.​
The purpose of this initial interview is to assess immediate protection/assistance needs and to collect and register basic bio-data. The migrant is then referred to the relevant authority for a more comprehensive assessment and status determination. The relevant authority may include the police (for victims of trafficking), the social welfare ministry (for unaccompanied or separated minors), the Office of the Commissioner for Refugees (for refugees, asylum seekers and refused asylum seekers) and the immigration authorities (for stranded migrants or stateless persons).​
After this comprehensive assessment, migrants are referred to relevant service providers to address short, medium and long-term needs and to appropriate authorities to facilitate case resolution. Following an initial piloting stage, the Guidelines have been rolled out across Zambia. More than 200 front-line officers have received training on the Guidelines and NRM.​

Note in particular that emphasis is placed on speed and that unaccompanied children are placed in the care of the Social Welfare Ministry. They are not placed under the supervision of border security, law enforcement, or the military. They are put into the same system as native Zambian children.

This is what I demand. I demand a processing system that will make preliminary determinations of status in a matter of hours, not days or weeks or months. I demand that border control thugs have absolute minimum contact with children and that unaccompanied children are handed over to our child welfare social services in a matter of hours, not days or weeks or months. I demand that from that point onward migrant children be treated exactly as native children are treated in similar circumstances of unknown or missing family. I demand they be placed in communities all across the country to minimize the risk of systemic failures in border communities. I demand that the children be placed with guardians as quickly as possible with no prejudice for their immigration status, that they attend public schools with their peers regardless of immigration status, and that they have freedom of movement and association that any other American child would enjoy.

Thanks for this.

This thread has been pretty eye-opening to me. Now I understand what people mean when they say Democrats and Republicans are similar. People really don't care about the well-being of children and people of color. It's all just a game to them and the authoritarian racism is fine when it's their team doing it. I wish people would grow a spine, do some soul-searching, and have some actual principles to adhere to.