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Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
Progressives are the most cannibalistic voting block I've ever seen.

As politicians go, Bernie and Warren are about as clean as it gets yet the vilification on both sides continues.

Biden is shit on a stick but by all means, let's froth and foam over this big, juicy nothing-burger.

And when Biden wins the primary, this meme will perfectly encapsulate the progressive block's strategy:

giphy.gif
 

thebishop

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
2,758
Because if your #1 fails then you've got the other! It's like dual wielding swords in a game, it's great!

Imo this is a fundamentally wrong idea about politics. Who you vote for is of minor concern. Who you *mobilize* for, who you phonebank, canvass, motivate friends and neighbors, fundraise, march, etc is what matters a lot.

The idea of going all out for more than one candidate is kind of silly and also blunts your effectiveness. Elections are not a buffet, they're a fight to the death.
 

y2dvd

Member
Nov 14, 2017
2,481
Even this is giving up too much ground. The only additional context I'm aware of is in the wapo story which says Sanders said something about Trump using nefarious tactics. Does a women have more struggles against Trump than a self described Socialist, or a man who seems to be sunsetting on live TV? Trump will use nefarious tactics against any opponent. In my view it's really on Warren to provide details on what Sanders said, but she has refused.

If I was giving Warren the benefit of a doubt, it's simply a matter of extrapolating "struggles of winning" with "can't win", which several in this thread have already demonstrated having difficulty differentiating, and the unintended effect is insinuating that Sanders is a mysogynist.

Personally, I think she is smarter than this and knows the intended consequences of leaving it vague.
 

neon/drifter

Shit Shoe Wasp Smasher
Member
Apr 3, 2018
4,060
Imo this is a fundamentally wrong idea about politics. Who you vote for is of minor concern. Who you *mobilize* for, who you phonebank, canvass, motivate friends and neighbors, fundraise, march, etc is what matters a lot.

The idea of going all out for more than one candidate is kind of silly and also blunts your effectiveness. Elections are not a buffet, they're a fight to the death.
Dats not what I'm implying though.

I'm saying if your favorite doesn't win the primary then at least you've got number two to support in the general. Both Bernie and Warren are great regardless of this squabble. The fact that we have TWO popular progressives that are actually grabbing headlines and attention is a great position for us to be in. Bad publicity be damned but this is petty stuff we can work past, if only for the greater good.
 

PennyStonks

Banned
May 17, 2018
4,401
I turned away money for college because I was only 90% the intended target of the money.
Lizzy went all out with that 1%
Progressives are the most cannibalistic voting block I've ever seen.

As politicians go, Bernie and Warren are about as clean as it gets yet the vilification on both sides continues.

Biden is shit on a stick but by all means, let's froth and foam over this big, juicy nothing-burger.

And when Biden wins the primary, this meme will perfectly encapsulate the progressive block's strategy:

giphy.gif
Trump might have been involved with an assassination plot, but this is what people care about today.
 

thebishop

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
2,758
Dats not what I'm implying though.

I'm saying if your favorite doesn't win the primary then at least you've got number two to support in the general. Both Bernie and Warren are great regardless of this squabble. The fact that we have TWO popular progressives that are actually grabbing headlines and attention is a great position for us to be in. Bad publicity be damned but this is petty stuff we can work past, if only for the greater good.

Well then I'll just say that the only ways I can imagine Warren getting ahead of Sanders in this race would involve tactics that would cause me not to vote for her. Tactics similar to those we're discussing in this thread. I was already not going to mobilize for her because her politics don't offer a fundamental change to society.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,206
Imo this is a fundamentally wrong idea about politics. Who you vote for is of minor concern. Who you *mobilize* for, who you phonebank, canvass, motivate friends and neighbors, fundraise, march, etc is what matters a lot.

The idea of going all out for more than one candidate is kind of silly and also blunts your effectiveness. Elections are not a buffet, they're a fight to the death.
And you can't do any of that while having a second choice?
 

neon/drifter

Shit Shoe Wasp Smasher
Member
Apr 3, 2018
4,060
Well then I'll just say that the only ways I can imagine Warren getting ahead of Sanders in this race would involve tactics that would cause me not to vote for her. Tactics similar to those we're discussing in this thread. I was already not going to mobilize for her because her politics don't offer a fundamental change to society.
I would argue that... At this point, if we actually elect a Democrat at all for president this year then that is a fundamental change. Society fucking sucks right now. Remove Trump, THEN focus on the rest. Like the races that matter. The courts, the mid terms the local elections.

If we allow Trump anything like someone refusing to vote against him in anyway, then we could lose everything. Everything. That's not hyperbole.
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,127
Chile
Progressives are the most cannibalistic voting block I've ever seen.

As politicians go, Bernie and Warren are about as clean as it gets yet the vilification on both sides continues.

Biden is shit on a stick but by all means, let's froth and foam over this big, juicy nothing-burger.

And when Biden wins the primary, this meme will perfectly encapsulate the progressive block's strategy:

giphy.gif

The over-morality of the progressives. Statements that can be mistaken or misunderstood are a bigger issue than actual corruption
 

Kayla

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,316
Yeah, that was pretty cool of Warren to backstab her good friend and then try to (seemingly?) lecture him after refusing a handshake post-debate, right guys?

She's no longer my second choice. Not even in my top 3 anymore. If she's willing to do that to Bernie, who's been pretty much her (political) best friend for years, I doubt she can be trusted to roll out any of the policy she's already wavered on.

This is how I feel. This silly attack on Bernie only benefits republicans and joe Biden. Her leaking this story only caused infighting that we didn't have much of before this. Was it worth it warren?
 

Eidan

Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
8,560
Progressives are the most cannibalistic voting block I've ever seen.

As politicians go, Bernie and Warren are about as clean as it gets yet the vilification on both sides continues.

Biden is shit on a stick but by all means, let's froth and foam over this big, juicy nothing-burger.

And when Biden wins the primary, this meme will perfectly encapsulate the progressive block's strategy:

giphy.gif
I maintain that the left is most effective at policing and destroying those on the left. Biden is going to breeze through this shit if this keeps up.
 

The Boat

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,862
I refer to my post below:

I've used such language before to describe sexism that has occured to me. And I don 't like how many male posters are now suggesting that women who use such language are minimising sexual assault and harassment. This sort of language has always been used by women to describe sexism, sexual assault and harassment is included in that but not just that. If it makes you uncomfortable that the sort of language that is being used in this thread falls into the same pattern that is always used to dismiss women who have been victims of sexism, sexual assault and harassment included, maybe it's on you and others in this thread to look at exaclty what you are saying and how you are saying it, cus it goes beyond defending Bernie Sanders.
Take my opinion for whatever it's worth,seeing as I'm a guy,so seeing phrases like "why bring this up now" obviously originates different reactions.

I didn't suggest anything about women minimizing anything, as I don't even know if I'm talking to women or not. I simply think that post was a very casual dismissal of a valid question/argument by lumping it in with a sexist tactic. Again, the timing of a political statement or leak is very important and relevant, questioning that timing does not make one sexist just because the politician in question is a woman.

Like you said, you used that language when describing sexism, I just don't think questioning the timing of this leak is necessarily sexist (although I'm sure many mysoginists will do it), so instantly dismissing this questioning and lumping it in with sexist tactics is not a good way to go about it.

I don't really care about defending Bernie or attacking Warren, as I think a big clash between him and Warren will only help Biden and/or the GOP. Although, some degree of clashing is unavoidable, they are opponents in this race after all.
 

Aureon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,819
This is as fucking stupid as it could conceivably be.

I don't even care who fucked up, it's embarassing it's dragging on.
 

darz1

Member
Dec 18, 2017
7,077
I definitely don't mean to wade into this too far, but why is everyone so positive that Warren is lying? It seems like everyone is aggressively confident of it and offended by her as a consequence, but I haven't seen what it is that has pushed everyone in that direction. No snark intended, but did I miss something?

Again, not pushing one way or the other, just asking what everyone else knows that I don't.
I think based on everything we know about Bernie, peopleare willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that even if he said something along those lines, he isn't mysogonistic and Warren knows this, but her response implies that he is mysogonistic. She is smart enough to know the implication so it comes across as dishonest.

Unless she truly believes he is mysogonistic, which makes no sense given their perceived friendship
 

skullmuffins

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,419
A CNN host said on air that she planted it.
yes, that's called punditry. Burnett didn't write the story and it would be outrageous for a reporter to go on air and out their sources. it's wild you think a cable host's punditry should be taken as an on-the-record confirmation that the story was planted by the campaign (distinct from the story being leaked by people close to warren's campaign but perhaps not at the campaign's direction or authorization)
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,865
Is it possible neither is lying?

Bernie may have said it meaning one thing and Warren took it as a misogynistic comment?
 

Deleted member 51646

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 5, 2019
179
No, sanders response was to deny the allegation.
To be fair, I thought Warren was lying before Sanders said anything. That said, I think there's a difference at least rhetorically between denying a nasty accusation against you (and I do think it is nasty), and calling the accuser a liar.
In a situation like this, the kind of denial he gave - a flat "I didn't say that", is very much calling Warren a liar. He could have said any number of other things like "I said something that could have been interpreted that way, but this other things is what I actually meant" or even "I don't remember saying anything like that", and many people in this thread speculate that something along those lines could be the truth, but Sanders went with the stronger statement.

Absolutely, I more meant why are so many people who were previously pretty supportive of both of them suddenly so aggressively convinced that she is lying?

I am not questioning why people have a belief here, just why people are so sure when many of them seemingly liked both of them well enough previously.

I feel like I am missing a very convincing and damning piece of evidence.
I never got the impression that most people, especially here, liked both candidates equally. My understanding is that many people saw her as a clearly inferior choice because she doesn't go as far as Sanders on some policies, single payer healthcare being a key differentiator that she somewhat walked back on. That also explains why people here support her less than they used to. So when forced to pick between Sanders and Warren due to the strength of Sanders' denial, they picked one.
 

gutter_trash

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
17,124
Montreal
as a non-supporter of either, this is a lose-lose for both but more for Warren.

Bernie has his immovable block of supporters but Liz's block of support is softer.

Biden wins
 

MrBadger

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,552
User Banned (1 month): Sexist strawman, trolling
Calling out racism isn't very Trumpian, I admit. Your common inclination to call any woman who says something disparaging about your candidate a liar is straight Donald though.

Reasons to believe Sanders: his history on policy, all of his public actions to this point, other witness reports, Warren's history of lying about her race as a political move

Reasons to believe Warren: BELIEVE WOMEN, #imwithher, "calling a woman a liar, eh? Sounds pretty trumplike to me"
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,650
It's not outside the realm of possibility for Bernie to have suggested it was harder for a woman to win than a mam
Do you think it's outside the realm of possibility that maybe Bernie did say something misogynistic? Like, he's not perfect, people can make mistakes and say a dumb thing. I feel like to not even believe it's a possibility is putting him on a ridiculously high bar that very few people are going to be able to reach. It doesn't have to undo all the good he's done to just consider it, and if he did say it and apologized for it I guarantee most people would say hey, he did the right thing by apologizing and not hold it against him.
as a non-supporter of either, this is a lose-lose for both but more for Warren.

Bernie has his immovable block of supporters but Liz's block of support is softer.

Biden wins
Unfortunately, yeah pretty much
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,469
Reasons to believe Sanders: his history on policy, all of his public actions to this point, other witness reports, Warren's history of lying about her race as a political move

Reasons to believe Warren: BELIEVE WOMEN, #imwithher, "calling a woman a liar, eh? Sounds pretty trumplike to me"

Under reasons to believe Sanders, don't forget both the timing of the leak and Warren's friendliness in the year and a half since the meeting.
 

Venomgxt

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
88
It seems like desperate attempt on Warren's part to slow down Sanders' momentum.

Bernie has integrity. Sorry Warren fans.
 

Cymbal Head

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,373
It's clear Sanders doesn't want to to be talking about this publicly. Warren says the same, but then puts out posts and emails that lean into the messaging. She wants to have and eat her cake on this, which marks it as nothing more than a political ploy (if that wasn't already obvious).

I've said it before, but the most striking thing about this whole episode has been the sheer ineptitude with which the Warren camp has deployed it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
855
Lots of hand-wringing here and talk about progressives being at each other. Actually, the truth is pretty much as simple as this:



There's only one person truly fighting for the working class in this race and it's Bernie Sanders.
 

fierygunrob

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jan 16, 2018
299
Something tells me, if we were to find out somehow what was actually discussed, Bernie said something along the lines of what he's claiming, and Warren heard what she's claiming, they didn't clarify anything with each other and this is all a big stupid distraction that the centrist lane of the democrats are just loving because it's taken up as much oxygen as it has.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
Take my opinion for whatever it's worth,seeing as I'm a guy,so seeing phrases like "why bring this up now" obviously originates different reactions.

I didn't suggest anything about women minimizing anything, as I don't even know if I'm talking to women or not. I simply think that post was a very casual dismissal of a valid question/argument by lumping it in with a sexist tactic. Again, the timing of a political statement or leak is very important and relevant, questioning that timing does not make one sexist just because the politician in question is a woman.

Like you said, you used that language when describing sexism, I just don't think questioning the timing of this leak is necessarily sexist (although I'm sure many mysoginists will do it), so instantly dismissing this questioning and lumping it in with sexist tactics is not a good way to go about it.

I don't really care about defending Bernie or attacking Warren, as I think a big clash between him and Warren will only help Biden and/or the GOP. Although, some degree of clashing is unavoidable, they are opponents in this race after all.
My main issue is that the type of rheteric going around threads like this is depressingly familiar, and matches my experiences to a "T". Does that make everyone a big sexist? No, but we are raised by a sexist society and we shold step back and look how we frame things. And the big thing is when a lot of posters when you point out what type of language is being used, then say that you are doing a disservice to "real" women's issues like sexual assault and harassment, and that using such comparisons in such situations that aren't sexual assault and harassment are "disgusting", to me, that's really crossing the line. My issue isn't even with Sanders, he likely said it and didn't relise what it came across as, it happens all the time to me with guys, even my friends and family, I let it go (maybe have a wee complain with my friends to let off steam) and move on because they are still good people and one sexist statement doesn't define them completely, we are raised in a sexist society, everyone is affected by it. I suspect that's what Warren did and moved on. The reason it's coming out now? Well, such things will generate rumours, a good journalist will find sources confirming and quite frankly it was ther perfect time to release and get a lot of clicks. More money for them. It doesn't benefit either Sanders or Warren. And it's escalated cus the two of them are on a public platform, and there are alot of people getting in the way, and I don't think it helped that Bernie pretty much said she lied. But the ones that I find a lot more disturbing for sexism are the kind of comments from Bernie's supporters going on in this forum, Bernie's thing didn't bother me that much, but what his supporters have come up with to defend him really really have. And quite frankly, I think they are making it worse for Sanders, as if they weren't so vehement with their defense, it would have blow over by now.

Also going to point out, am from the UK, do not have a vote in this, and would be happy for either Bernie or Liz to win. Just hate to see how the political discourse on what' is the left and is meant to be more progressive, is so sexist in how it goes against a female politician. The language they use and how they frame it is important.
 

requiem

Member
Dec 3, 2017
1,448
Progressives are the most cannibalistic voting block I've ever seen.

As politicians go, Bernie and Warren are about as clean as it gets yet the vilification on both sides continues.

Biden is shit on a stick but by all means, let's froth and foam over this big, juicy nothing-burger.

And when Biden wins the primary, this meme will perfectly encapsulate the progressive block's strategy:

giphy.gif
This is all very true, and it's largely a result of those in the establishment left's pocket (CNN, MSNBC) pitting progressives against each other to weaken them. Progressives need to stop falling for the bait.
 

Byakuya769

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
2,718
It's clear Sanders doesn't want to to be talking about this publicly. Warren says the same, but then puts out posts and emails that lean into the messaging. She wants to have and eat her cake on this, which marks it as nothing more than a political ploy (if that wasn't already obvious).

I've said it before, but the most striking thing about this whole episode has been the sheer ineptitude with which the Warren camp has deployed it.
After it leaked, other than "oops, I was lying!", what response from Warren would make you happy?
 

Cymbal Head

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,373
After it leaked, other than "oops, I was lying!", what response from Warren would make you happy?

I'd be fine with her statement that it was a private conversation which she doesn't want to discuss further, except the campaign subsequently sent out fundraising emails like this:

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And tweets like this:



Which are clearly attempts to benefit off of the narrative that the story has created. The campaign wants to have it both ways: not face a damaging direct fight with Sanders over what was said, but do fundraising off of the implications.
 

Doran

Member
Jun 9, 2018
1,847
Handshake gate is the weakest of all the gates.

This is going to turn into a Knives Out sequel (it already kind of has).
 

cartographer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,004
That this is the biggest story today is a great recent example of how far in the toilet the 24-hour news cycle has taken discussion about politics and government. It's like people want to recreate a government TV drama in real life.
 

Kazooie

Member
Jul 17, 2019
5,013
Denial is not clarification.
He denied to have said what Warren claimed (i.e. a woman cannot win), but he did confirm that he talked about additional challenges women may face in an election against Trump (him being sexist and using sexism against the opposing candidate). This is a clarification. Of course, Warren might (and does) disagree with his discription of the event, but it is not a wholesale denial. His side of the story gives a basis for why she might have felt that this is what he wanted to express, while at the same time denying that he outright said it.
 
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