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XirCancerlot

Member
Jun 5, 2018
12
USA
A full thread from the casting director on how things went down:



I really appreciate the transparency here and appreciate that she's owning up to how they put the focus on the wrong thing.

THIS is an example of the problem, people. A PoC not only has to fight explicit racism in hiring, but implicit racism from the game design choices not considering the hardship being placed on the PoC community. Explaining why it happened doesn't change the fact that Wargroove contributed to the systemic racism that continues to diminish the efforts of talented people of color all over the industry, and I'm sure we'll see more rationalization like this in the future.
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
A full thread from the casting director on how things went down:



I really appreciate the transparency here and appreciate that she's owning up to how they put the focus on the wrong thing.

I actually really appreciate this response. A lot better than 'sorry you got offended but I'm not really sorry for what I did/said' (sideeye look at CDPR).

I also appreciate that she said that us complaining is a okay and recognized that it's part of the discourse.
 

Urban Scholar

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,603
Florida
I actually really appreciate this response. A lot better than 'sorry you got offended but I'm not really sorry for what I did/said' (sideeye look at CDPR).

I also appreciate that she said that us complaining is a okay and recognized that it's part of the discourse.

I like to point out this isn't complaining but rightful criticism of an industry problem, that over looks people like myself.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,644
I think I may be at odds with Era on this, but I am not seeing the harm in taking the dual approach of "anyone can voice anyone if they're the best for the role, but you want to make a lot more effort to scout out underrepresented pools so you're not just reaching into a pool of white dudes and proclaiming your done."

Fully agreed. Blind casting is a fair process that gets the job done for the product, and if it produces suspiciously inequitable results you have to wonder where the inequalities or biases are coming from: not from the casting director, but from the networking in the recruitment pool. Essentially, who is or isn't in the loop to see casting calls for projects of this scale; who knows how to play this game? Of course prolific and established performers will have an advantage even if you don't look at their credits/CVs, because agencies, talent management, and their peer professional network keep them plugged in and take off some of that burden. It's easy, as the people doing the casting, to wash your hands of this and say it's outside your responsibility or purview, but at the same time they're the only ones who can ultimately move the ball on addressing implicit biases already baked into the search space.

It's entirely possible to support a greater consciousness of systemic biases in employment, and push for active efforts to address them, without falling into the trap of a short-sighted, patronizing ideological dead end like "authentic" voice casting.

Classy and informative response by Kimlinh Tran. I'd agree they certainly made an unforced error in how they announced the cast with headshots, creating a ready-made object of derision that could be held up as an emblem of what's wrong not just at Chucklefish but throughout the industry.
 

LumberPanda

Member
Feb 3, 2019
6,355
This isn't just one black character with one white VA. By itself that would not be much of an issue. But it's not that. It's three black characters with three white VAs, in an industry where black representation is terrible. This doesn't happen by accident. This doesn't happen in a vacuum.

To the "you hire the best person for the job" people: how would you explain the terrible representation in the industry? Why is it that all these games "just so happen" to have white VA's as the "best" VA's for the job?
 

Icemonk191

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,814
Just another example of systemic racism going strong. Also Chucklefish's response is some weak ass shit
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,652
Honestly, this is a really hard topic for me to talk about objectively. I love voice acting and I've always thought that any actor should be able to portray any character because that was the beauty of voice acting in particular. At the same time... I think creators should be able to seek authenticity from the actors that portray their characters and I understand the disappointment from people when that attempt isn't even made at all. Especially because it doesn't happen very often.
Thanks for understanding
You can't? I absolutely can. It's pretty much the norm in threads like these on this forum. There can't even be a thread related to representation for black women in media on this forum without shit like that showing up.
You'd think I'd know better after all the blackface threads
 

SonofDonCD

Member
Oct 26, 2017
393
Fully agreed. Blind casting is a fair process that gets the job done for the product, and if it produces suspiciously inequitable results you have to wonder where the inequalities or biases are coming from: not from the casting director, but from the networking in the recruitment pool. Essentially, who is or isn't in the loop to see casting calls for projects of this scale; who knows how to play this game? Of course prolific and established performers will have an advantage even if you don't look at their credits/CVs, because agencies, talent management, and their peer professional network keep them plugged in and take off some of that burden. It's easy, as the people doing the casting, to wash your hands of this and say it's outside your responsibility or purview, but at the same time they're the only ones who can ultimately move the ball on addressing implicit biases already baked into the search space.

It's entirely possible to support a greater consciousness of systemic biases in employment, and push for active efforts to address them, without falling into the trap of a short-sighted, patronizing ideological dead end like "authentic" voice casting.

Classy and informative response by Kimlinh Tran. I'd agree they certainly made an unforced error in how they announced the cast with headshots, creating a ready-made object of derision that could be held up as an emblem of what's wrong not just at Chucklefish but throughout the industry.
Sure, in theory blind casting would be the best ideal.

Here's the problem: we don't live in an equal, merit-based world. We live in one with systemic racism built into its very roots.

The default is white. The default characters are overwhelmingly white, and the majority of the talent pool is white. The vast majority of the time a white VA is going to play a white character (there are exceptions, but they are just that, EXCEPTIONS). So as a POC voice actor, you're already at a disadvantage. Then you throw in the fact that very often you are also competing with white voice actors for the relatively few POC characters available? How is that fair and equitable? How do you deal with that?

If you truly care about diversity and real equality, you have to actively pursue it. In this specific case, the main way to do this is by saying you'll only hire a POC to play one. You can make all the heartfelt apologies, well-meaning explanations and declarative statements you want, but they mean nothing if you don't actively do anything about it. If you do something like blind casting, most likely you'll just end up hiring another white actor as there are more of them, and more with of them with more experience in the industry. Hence, you're not actually creating diversity.
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,323
This was the first thing I thought of. While who they got to play Nadine did a fantastic job, it was still pretty shitty.
I think they tried to somewhat even it out by then also casting a white role with a women of color

cZl0unh.jpg


Though there's also the whole thing with Laura Bailey apparently being cast before the race of the character was set
 

Raijinto

self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
10,091
Yeah my take on this whole thing is that this is *exactly* why their approach to hiring their VAs was a bad approach. If nothing else, it serves as a good case example for the future of what to avoid. No duh if you just sample some random people's auditions based off of their voice samples alone you're gonna end up with 9 white peoples' voice samples for every minority one- it almost goes without saying. I'll echo an earlier comment praising Overwatch here- they went the distance to get authentic and talented actors for character such as Doomfist.

I'll give Chucklefish the benefit of the doubt that there's nothing overtly malicious here but it's nonetheless a bad approach like I said.

Also big oof at the 15 post user who has been here since October 2017 proudly doing a racism ITT. Cowards.

Edit: and yeah the tweet in the OP with the VA pictured next to their characters was definitely emblematic of their lack of understanding that is at fault here. At least they've acknowledged that since.
 

Velezcora

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 16, 2017
3,124
If you have created PoC characters, wouldn't you send out a casting call for PoC voice actors? Otherwise why bother creating PoC characters to then whitewash them.

Casting a white voice actor for a poc character isn't whitewashing though. You only hear the voice and people only discovered the problem when the headshots were posted.

Chucklefish done goofed here for sure but lets not muddy the water here with trying to psycho analyse the staff working there.

They had poc characters and should have cast appropriately.
 

Deleted member 2669

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,044
If you just cover your eyes, the privileged mechanisms are going to do their work. 90% of the auditions are going to be from white people because this isn't a meritocratic world. And that isn't even getting into how the employer defines what is "best." They could easily have unexamined biases that they project onto an actor's work, extending the cycle.

I'm reiterating a lot of what people here have already posted, but it all bears repeating.
 

Urban Scholar

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,603
Florida
I like the tweet one of the devs made that implied they basically hit their darkie quota for the game


Also, admitting you had POCs apply and you turned them away during this situation is an astounding thing to do. :lol


I'm not out to drag anyone but her tweets read like when you're a part of the problem.

Again, hey we tried but nah. It sucks & the more I read her explanations, I facepalm
 

Deleted member 2669

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,044
I like the tweet one of the devs made that implied they basically hit their darkie quota for the game


Also, admitting you had POCs apply and you turned them away during this situation is an astounding thing to do. :lol

What the hell does "creative vision" mean here? She doesn't actually make it sound like anything got in the way of casting that woman. It reeks of "can you sound less black?"
 
Sep 14, 2019
3,030
Why the fuck would you blindly pick the VA using only audio files? Is that common in the industry?



I did this once for a game project several years ago. Blind auditions, I mean. I figured I'd just listen to the voice and pick whoever sounded right for the role without knowing what they look like.

But, this was after I discussed with the VA director that I wanted to match the ethnicity of the VAs with the ethnicity of the characters. I was told it's hard to find voices that fit the personality AND share the same ethnicity.

Looking back... I think every PoC character in the project was voiced by a White person... As a Person of Color myself, I should've known better...

I definitely would handle things differently now.

Edit: The more I think about it, the more I cringe... What the heck was I thinking...
 

kiriku

Member
Oct 27, 2017
947
A full thread from the casting director on how things went down:



I really appreciate the transparency here and appreciate that she's owning up to how they put the focus on the wrong thing.


Wow, had no idea Kimlinh's a casting director nowadays, that's awesome. She was a voice actor on a number of games where I edited the dialogues, so I have heard a lot of her voice. lol

Also, to add to the thread. I've worked on a game where the director set out specifically to cast people with the same ethnicity as the character they are portraying to the highest degree possible (and the game had a wide variety of PoC characters). And only local talents to boot, which made it harder since the studio is an indie developer in Sweden. It took a lot of auditions but they made it work, and I think it turned out pretty well all things considered.
 
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Mr. Blue Sky

Member
Oct 25, 2017
366
I know it's been brought up a bunch already in this thread but I always love the "Best person for the job" excuse. If you look back at like every time this type of situation comes up and is followed up by this rhetoric it's almost like you can starting drawing a sort of conclusion that white people are the best for every job. Makes you think.
 

MajesticSoup

Banned
Feb 22, 2019
1,935
People too hung up on a voice actors color matching their character.
A game like Witcher 3 with a 100% white voice cast is a 100x more problematic.
If you were getting ready to type 'Its ok because the game is set in Scandinavia' then you're part of the problem.
 

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
Not to say you are doing it wrong or anything, you know better than I do, but I do some volunteer work in the Asian American film space, and we frequently get casting calls/calls for artists/ etc that specifically say "looking for an Asian American male..." "looking to hire POC artists", etc - so it can't be absolutely illegal.
No, my point was that we (being indie devs) don't always know what we're doing. We had a process that we felt was safe and effective and there was no reason for us at the time to do anything differently. I think players tend to assume competence most of the time and that's really not usually the case.
 

daybreak

Member
Feb 28, 2018
2,415
No, my point was that we (being indie devs) don't always know what we're doing. We had a process that we felt was safe and effective and there was no reason for us at the time to do anything differently. I think players tend to assume competence most of the time and that's really not usually the case.

Yeah, definitely this. I have to do VA casting sometimes, and started with absolutely no clue what I was doing (neither did anyone else on the team). The learning process for anything requires a lot of failure to perfect. In the past I've only ever done blind VA casting auditions because it made sense to me in that it was fast, easy, produced a "best for the role" result and, most importantly, fit the budget...all while logically seeming fair to me, at least in a business sense.

Big shoutouts to Patrick Klepek for his article - he helped break this all down in a way that gave me a better understanding of the situation. I've never had to hire roles based on ethnicity, but now I know a bit better should I ever have to.
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,370
Houston, TX
Looking back, this has been a problem for a good long while, & I don't just mean regarding Nadine (granted, her being black was decided after Laura Bailey's casting, but an argument could be made for recasting Nadine after her design was finalized). Even in Fire Emblem: Three Houses, Claude & Dedue (two of the few people of color in the game) are voiced by white guys.
 

aiswyda

Member
Aug 11, 2018
3,093
As everyone else in the thread has mentioned an issue with blind casting is internal biases/racism. White casting directors esp end up choosing white VAs bc poc sound "weird" or "wrong for the part" ie. not in line with their own experiences/ideas. On top of that, it's a positive feedback loop; the more white VA dominate, the more that sounds like the 'correct type of VA', and so the more white voices get roles.

It's just sort of a thing that happens--we like voices that sound like our own, and overlook mistakes that sound like ones we've made. Perhaps not a one for one example, but I recall a college professor saying she doesn't ever grade on grammar / style so long as your point is understandable because she was white and raised in a well off family, and she found that even with blind grading, she ended up picking up on grammatical mistakes / disliking the style of students who were immigrants, poc, or of lower socio economic status. It was never intentional but her internal biases preferred what she was used to--so she just threw away even grading that stuff. I wish more people were aware and would own up to that--recognition is the first stop to preventing that behavior and stopping it from negatively impacting others.
 

Urban Scholar

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,603
Florida
Looking back, this has been a problem for a good long while, & I don't just mean regarding Nadine (granted, her being black was decided after Laura Bailey's casting, but an argument could be made for recasting Nadine after her design was finalized). Even in Fire Emblem: Three Houses, Claude & Dedue (two of the few people of color in the game) are voiced by white guys.

Right, that's an opportunity for the industry to do better & be better.

I feel like were going have this discussion a lot but regardless I'll be there.
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,895
Wasn't Chucklefish accused of not paying ppl not too long ago? They seem like a shitty company.
Yeah, the CEO was verbally abusive, they didn't pay people for working on Starbound, and they tried to (and in some cases did) get people to give them fan works for nothing; Novakids were originally a fan race, and they tried to the same with Avali.
 

Just_a_Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,030
Yeah, the CEO was verbally abusive, they didn't pay people for working on Starbound, and they tried to (and in some cases did) get people to give them fan works for nothing; Novakids were originally a fan race, and they tried to the same with Avali.

Yikes. The sewage always flows from the top on down, and that twitter thread hasn't convinced me that they've learned anything.

Like, what the hell does this even mean?

My favorite for Vesper was actually a black actress! But the creative vision of the production had to be met, and every role had its own set of challenges.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,953
Houston
I like the tweet one of the devs made that implied they basically hit their darkie quota for the game


Also, admitting you had POCs apply and you turned them away during this situation is an astounding thing to do. :lol

i just noticed she had to put the line "i didn't exclude" marginalized voices part. no one does total exclusion anymore like the olde days that's how we get the 1 POC max things and the likes. So that's also a problem she's unaware expecting Classic Racism instead of Racism Zero Calories


also we should somehow trick them into saying yes only white people can voice POC's and then let POC's let voice the white/white japanese characters. Then we'll see how often POC characters suddenly show up in games/video/movies/ads