WaPo opinion piece: Joe Biden is the candidate of Other People. Is that enough?

[BADMAN]

Bernie Sanders has been a fucking Washington insider for the last three decades.

This idea that Sanders is some outsider who is immune to right wing smear is devoid of any reality and the fact you so willingly fall for right wing smears against Clinton to try and prove your point that Sanders' is immune, just proves the point even more that some folks are really out of touch with reality.

You say "how would you take down someone like Sanders using a bad faith attack machine", ignoring what the entire concept of "bad faith" is! You are contradicting yourself two sentences into your own post about how Sanders is smear proof using logic that is self contradicting.

Saying shit like "he fights with conviction" is just stupid. It's stupid because it brings this idea that nobody else does, that nobody gives a fuck and he's somehow in all of politics the only person who is capable of saving the human race in some majestic, inhuman way. He fight's with "conviction" because apparently, repeating the same thing for thirty years is what people find inspiring. Nah fuck getting shit done, fuck actually doing politics where you have to inherently compromise when you're dealing with 60 votes (within your own party across two branches of legislature), that shit is WEAK.

Real conviction is having the same stump speech over and over again, where you get to point at a video from 20 years ago and say "See! I have conviction because I'm just saying the same thing", because when ever the conversation is brought up that's literally all anyone ever does.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but Sanders is not some magical person that's going to inspire a generation. He didn't do it in 2016, he didn't do it in 2018, and nothing is showing he's doing it now. He's not some underdog that is up against the machine. He's not losing because it's him vs. the world and the world is doing everything to keep him down, no matter how much people keep repeating that same tired bullshit.

Bernie Sanders is DC. Bernie Sanders is politics. Bernie Sanders is not above the bullshit. Bernie Sanders, when the chips are on the table, takes the money and does what any person representing their state does. He has a record of doing it even when it's shit like the Military Industrial Complex, or gun control. It's why people get fucking tired of hearing Sanders as some holy symbol that if criticized simply "doesn't care about working class people", because it's all reductionary bullshit about class warfare.

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I get it, you don't like Bernie. You don't have to be so aggressive about it.

 

[Kyra]

Biden is the easiest person to run a campaign against. Simple headlines that bring down favorability like "SEXUAL ASSAULT" and "BIDEN FLIP FLOPS" will be very effective against him. The picturs of him uncomfortable close to women write their own ads. And this fucked up world those matter more than amorphous concepts like socialism.

 

[KHarvey16]

Moderate voters will not redeem or transform the GOP. It will not happen. The party is beyond rehabilitation at this point.

The electorate needs to be changed. It's the only way out.

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Who's suggesting it will transform the GOP? It's about getting elected. Trump won by like 80,000 votes. The GOP was crushed in the midterms and moderate and traditional democrats did far better than leftists even with a huge turnout on both sides.

And how does Bernie change the electorate? Is it still this mythical youth turnout argument? The silent majority? Lol.

 

[The Adder]

The GOP aren't going to bring up a Daily Beast article where some of the prominent black leaders in Vermont had issues with Bernie's lack of focus on racial issues. The liberal leaning corporate media outlets might try to make the general case that Bernie has a race problem, but it'll likely be in bad faith as opposed to bring up actual criticisms.

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I'm not being a dick about it, you clearly have no experience with how this works. The GOP attacls from the left and the right. Whichever benefits them most. They have different media organizations to perform these kinds of attacks. If you think the only people atracking Clinton from the left last election were actual leftists you are incredibly naive.

They brought out the 1970's article last time around and it didn't really gain any traction.

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He wasn't the nominee.

And finally, people like Bernie because he's pushing policies that people want. This isn't the 1990's or even 2012.

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"Things are different now" is a hell of an unproven argument.

 

[KHarvey16]

Biden is the easiest person to run a campaign against. Simple headlines that bring down favorability like "SEXUAL ASSAULT" and "BIDEN FLIP FLOPS" will be very effective against him. The picturs of him uncomfortable close to women write their own ads. And this fucked up world those matter more than amorphous concepts like socialism.

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Why do these same arguments not even move the needle for his support in the primaries? If they're so important, why have they had no effect even among an electorate that doesn't support the President, a man who won despite having the exact issues you've just described?

Arguing it's easier to bury Biden than Sanders or Warren can only be the result of not understanding who voters are and what they care about.

 

[Deleted member 43]

All I'm saying is that Sanders came onto the national stage as an outsider trying to change politics and is continuing to run on that as a part of his core message. That would be a very hard thing to attack him on.

But how does Biden fare against the machine? He's an old guard of the establishment. He has troubles explaining his policies, and only seems to be running off of Obama's legacy and his ability to defeat Trump. He has a bunch of incoherent sound bites and there's a bunch of photos out there of him creepily embracing women. Biden is Karl Rove's wet dream. Do you think it'll be harder for the GOP to take down Biden and Obama's legacy than Bernie and his socialism?

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Again, I don't know why you think that. John Kerry was a war hero before he was a coward. Destroying narratives and building their own are what the GOP excels at.

Joe Biden is a white male mainstream Democrat who appeals particularly well to suburban and rural voters (for a Democrat) and served in a pretty popular administration all things considered.

Bernie Sanders is a Jewish socialist who has little record of legislative accomplishments to point to after 30 years in Congress.

Like, there are clear reasons why the GOP views Biden as their most threatening opponent, and why their attacks during the primary have landed largely on him. They don't want to face him in the general. They would be happier fighting Bernie.

Again, none of that means Bernie can't win, or even would absolutely be the weaker candidate. If he can actually expand the voter pool on Election Day to a meaningful degree that would be enough to put him in office. But he is not a bulletproof candidate, and if he is the nominee by Election Day he will be hated just as deeply as Hillary. Because that's what happens.

 

[Deleted member 8561]

One would think the party of women and social movements would have a larger impact on headlines where the leading candidate could get tagged with "sexual assault" as posters like to imagine as some easy kryptonite against Biden.

 

[danm999]

Who's suggesting it will transform the GOP? It's about getting elected. Trump won by like 80,000 votes. The GOP was crushed in the midterms and moderate and traditional democrats did far better than leftists even with a huge turnout on both sides.

And how does Bernie change the electorate? Is it still this mythical youth turnout argument? The silent majority? Lol.

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Biden is saying that.

"With Trump gone, you're going to begin to see things change," Biden assured. "Because these folks know better. They know this isn't what they're supposed to be doing."

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"With Donald Trump out of the way, you're going to see a number of my Republican colleagues have an epiphany. Mark my words. Mark my words,"

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This is way more delusional than thinking you can increase voter turnout.

 

[Powdered Egg]

We have the data on these moderate voters. They, shockingly, prefer more moderate candidates. Large swaths of the electorate fall into this category. The most reliable voters fall into this category. It's not enough to just want this to not be true.



Did you read that post?



So he was constantly denigrated as a far left despot preparing to take everyone's guns, issue too many executive orders and lead a government takeover of healthcare just because he was black? That's a dangerous simplification. But it's necessary given what you want to believe about leftism and electability. So you believe it for that reason alone.

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LOL It's because I'm Black. Regressive White folks will literally believe any nonsense said about a Black person. Obama being a threat to their way of life doesn't work if he's White, nor do any of those silly Glenn Beck level smears.

 

[Deleted member 43]

This is way more delusional than thinking you can increase voter turnout.

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That's...not really wrong?

If Biden get elected with a mandate, the GOP will change to account for the new reality. The GOP is actually very, very good at modifying their core platform when the situation demands it. And the vast majority of GOP voters will follow the party wherever it goes, even if that's a little less conservative than where they are now.

 

[KHarvey16]

Biden is saying that.





This is way more delusional than thinking you can increase voter turnout.

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Lol, why are you deflecting like this? You tried to argue Bernie will motivate all kinds of people to vote who don't usually and that they'll overcome whatever backlash there is against a leftist. Now you're quoting Biden talking about congressional GOP not being Trump supporters after Trump leaves office? How is that relevant to anything you're arguing?

Everyone gets you don't like Biden. But that's not sufficient support for whatever anti-Biden argument you want to make.

 

[The Adder]

but energizing disenfranchised people who don't vote through things like class politics is a fairy tale for idiots

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Until Sanders can manage it in the primaries, where this is supposedly his base, then yes. It's a fairytale.

 

[Kyra]

Why do these same arguments not even move the needle for his support in the primaries? If they're so important, why have they had no effect even among an electorate that doesn't support the President, a man who won despite having the exact issues you've just described?

Arguing it's easier to bury Biden than Sanders or Warren can only be the result of not understanding who voters are and what they care about.

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There has always been a double standard when it comes to Dems vs Repubs. It will be amazing how suddenly these issues matter when the propaganda machine is in full swing against Biden and pounds that easily digestible message every day. I fully beleive the most electabe candidate is the one who has the least amount of ammunition to give for lines of attack. Having a candidate that is in any way comparable to Trump, even if its bullshit, will result in people breaking for Trump. Not every peice of baggage is the same and I dont have faith in Joe to be effective at deflecting controversy.

 

[KHarvey16]

LOL It's because I'm Black. Regressive White folks will literally believe any nonsense said about a Black person. Obama being a threat to their way of life doesn't work if he's White, nor do any of those silly Glenn Beck level smears.

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Well whatever is motivating it it's causing you a blind spot. Dismissing the GOP reaction to Obama as a democrat as nothing more or less than racism will ruin any ability you might have to understand the electorate or what their likely reaction will be to a progressive.

 

[danm999]

Lol, why are you deflecting like this? You tried to argue Bernie will motivate all kinds of people to vote who don't usually and that they'll overcome whatever backlash there is against a leftist. Now you're quoting Biden talking about congressional GOP not being Trump supporters after Trump leaves office? How is that relevant to anything you're arguing?

Everyone gets you don't like Biden. But that's not sufficient support for whatever anti-Biden argument you want to make.

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You asked me who was claiming the GOP would be transformed. It was Biden.

Pretty straightforward. His strategy won't work.

That's...not really wrong?

If Biden get elected with a mandate, the GOP will change to account for the new reality. The GOP is actually very, very good at modifying their core platform when the situation demands it. And the vast majority of GOP voters will follow the party wherever it goes, even if that's a little less conservative than where they are now.

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It's totally wrong, look how they behaved after the 2008 election.

 

[KHarvey16]

There has always been a double standard when it comes to Dems vs Repubs. It will be amazing how suddenly these issues matter when the propaganda machine is in full swing against Biden and pounds that easily digestible message every day. I fully beleive the most electabe candidate is the one who has the least amount of ammunition to give for lines of attack. Having a candidate that is in any way comparable to Trump, even if its bullshit, will result in people breaking for Trump. Not every peice of baggage is the same and I dont have faith in Joe to be effective at deflecting controversy.

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How in the world is Bernie the candidate with less ammunition against him compared to Biden? You really, really don't understand the American electorate. Bernie isn't even the candidate with less ammo against him amongst primary voters. Just think about that.

You asked me who was claiming the GOP would be transformed. It was Biden.

Pretty straightforward. His strategy won't work.

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You are dodging and deflecting the point of the discussion to focus on this irrelevant specific detail that you're likely wrong about anyway.

 

[Boiled Goose]

Biden can lose again.

You were warned once.

I don't think enough have learned their lesson.

Republican lite is a losing strategy.

 

[Kyra]

How in the world is Bernie the candidate with less ammunition against him compared to Biden? You really, really don't understand the American electorate. Bernie isn't even the candidate with less ammo against him amongst primary voters. Just think about that.

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I didn't say that Bernie was that candidate. I'm saying Biden defiantly isn't that candidate.

 

[KHarvey16]

I didn't say that Bernie was that candidate. I'm saying Biden defiantly isn't that candidate.

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So who has less ammunition against them but is still losing badly to Biden in the polling?

 

[Chaos Legion]

Bernie Sanders has been a fucking Washington insider for the last three decades.

This idea that Sanders is some outsider who is immune to right wing smear is devoid of any reality and the fact you so willingly fall for right wing smears against Clinton to try and prove your point that Sanders' is immune, just proves the point even more that some folks are really out of touch with reality.

You say "how would you take down someone like Sanders using a bad faith attack machine", ignoring what the entire concept of "bad faith" is! You are contradicting yourself two sentences into your own post about how Sanders is smear proof using logic that is self contradicting.

Saying shit like "he fights with conviction" is just stupid. It's stupid because it brings this idea that nobody else does, that nobody gives a fuck and he's somehow in all of politics the only person who is capable of saving the human race in some majestic, inhuman way. He fight's with "conviction" because apparently, repeating the same thing for thirty years is what people find inspiring. Nah fuck getting shit done, fuck actually doing politics where you have to inherently compromise when you're dealing with 60 votes (within your own party across two branches of legislature), that shit is WEAK.

Real conviction is having the same stump speech over and over again, where you get to point at a video from 20 years ago and say "See! I have conviction because I'm just saying the same thing", because when ever the conversation is brought up that's literally all anyone ever does.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but Sanders is not some magical person that's going to inspire a generation. He didn't do it in 2016, he didn't do it in 2018, and nothing is showing he's doing it now. He's not some underdog that is up against the machine. He's not losing because it's him vs. the world and the world is doing everything to keep him down, no matter how much people keep repeating that same tired bullshit.

Bernie Sanders is DC. Bernie Sanders is politics. Bernie Sanders is not above the bullshit. Bernie Sanders, when the chips are on the table, takes the money and does what any person representing their state does. He has a record of doing it even when it's shit like the Military Industrial Complex, or gun control. It's why people get fucking tired of hearing Sanders as some holy symbol that if criticized simply "doesn't care about working class people", because it's all reductionary bullshit about class warfare.

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This is the best post I've seen in ages and far more eloquently said than I could ever hope.

Biden is the easiest person to run a campaign against. Simple headlines that bring down favorability like "SEXUAL ASSAULT" and "BIDEN FLIP FLOPS" will be very effective against him. The picturs of him uncomfortable close to women write their own ads. And this fucked up world those matter more than amorphous concepts like socialism.

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Umm...I would agree if we were not in the current reality we are living in. Against most other candidates, I'd be inclined to agree. But, the current occupant of the White House:
- Has no concept of truth and speaks in consistent lies and flip flops
- Audibly bragged about sexual assaulting women
- Has over 20 sexual assault claims against him
- Was accused of rape by a former ex-wife
- Has bragged about being in teenage pageant dressing rooms
- Rawdogged a porn star while his wife was pregnant and used campaign funds to pay for her silence
- Had yet another credible rape allegation emerge this summer, that was pushed under the rug, because it was the least attention demanding scandal he was embroiled in over the summer

I mean...

Biden is saying that.

This is way more delusional than thinking you can increase voter turnout.

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[danm999]

You are dodging and deflecting the point of the discussion to focus on this irrelevant specific detail that you're likely wrong about anyway.

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The point of this discussion is to focus on Biden's political strategy and assess whether it will work.

Joe Biden's political strategy of appealing to Republicans is literally the first line in the first quote;

Joe Biden is the candidate of Other People. While there have been candidates in the past who made similar arguments about electability, in recent history we haven't seen a front-runner for whom his supposed appeal to the other party was so central to his campaign. His support in polls neither grows nor shrinks, but he remains the Democrat about whom it is most often said that he has the best chance to persuade Republicans to vote for him.

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[BADMAN]

I'm not being a dick about it, you clearly have no experience with how this works. The GOP attacls from the left and the right. Whichever benefits them most. They have different media organizations to perform these kinds of attacks. If you think the only people atracking Clinton from the left last election were actual leftists you are incredibly naive.


He wasn't the nominee.

"Things are different now" is a hell of an unproven argument.

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Yeah you're still coming off as a dick though. I do understand that, my bigger point was that the article you posted isn't an ace in the hole. It'd be a hell of a lot easier to hit someone like Biden with race stuff since he was a law and order democrat that championed the crime bill.

Hillary and pundits were trying very hard to stop Bernie's momentum. But fine, we'll see how the sex article works in the General.

Things are different now. They CLEARLY are different now. You'd have to be incredibly naive not to see that ;)

 

[The Adder]

It's totally wrong, look how they behaved after the 2008 election.

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Black men have to be better than perfect to come out on top of scrutiny. Old white men are mostly bulletproof. The GOP not working with a black man gets blamed on the black man. The GOP not working with a white man gets blamed on the GOP. Compare Clinton's administration to Obama's for evidence.

I imagine the same is true with a woman.

The one thing Biden has right is that the GOP wouldn't be able to get away with being as obstructive to him as they were with Obama. Which doesn't mean they'd have an actual change of heart. They'd just slip the mask back on.

Wouldn't need them to put the mask back on if we got the Senate majority and killed the filibuster, though. Which Warren has been pushing for from jump and Sanders has started to advocate. Biden, however, does not.

And more than any of his other shortcomings, that's the reason not to vote for Biden in the primaries.

 

[Deleted member 43]

Yeah you're still coming off as a dick though. I do understand that, my bigger point was that the article you posted isn't an ace in the hole. It'd be a hell of a lot easier to hit someone like Biden with race stuff since he was a law and order democrat that championed the crime bill.

Hillary and pundits were trying very hard to stop Bernie's momentum. But fine, we'll see how the sex article works in the General.

Things are different now. They CLEARLY are different now. You'd have to be incredibly naive not to see that ;)

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"Race stuff"? In what electorate will "race stuff" hurt Biden?

Honestly that line of attack is more likely to help him in the demos we most need help in.

 

[KHarvey16]

The point of this discussion is to focus on Biden's political strategy and assess whether it will work.

Joe Biden's political strategy of appealing to Republicans is literally the first line in the first quote;

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The point of this discussion was your assertion that Biden would somehow motivate a larger backlash against Democrats than Bernie or Warren would.

 

[Kay]

Almost want to see the pure senility of a Biden v Trump debate. I doubt either of them could answer a single question if the debate was after 6pm.

 

[BADMAN]

"Race stuff"? In what electorate will "race stuff" hurt Biden?

Honestly that line of attack is more likely to help him in the demos we most need help in.

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It was in context of The Adder saying that the GOP is going create a narrative that Bernie is bad on race issues.

 

[danm999]

The point of this discussion was your assertion that Biden would somehow motivate a larger backlash against Democrats than Bernie or Warren would.

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I said he'd dissipate electoral energy, not motivate a larger backlash. The backlash, as I said, is going to be there for any Democrat.

What's important is, how is the Democratic President going to weather it.

 

[Reverse Giraffe]

Honestly, yes.
He is very popular amongst older people.. who tend to vote at higher rates than the rest of the population.

 

[Deleted member 41502]

I have started to worry the Bernie/Warren camp is just too "socialist!" for this year. Mostly after I see how scared they both get when people ask about raising taxes.

I somehow subscribed to some super conservative mailing list and today's headlines were "Hunter Biden HUMILIATED As He's SNUBBED By His Own Father". When did the right become obsessed with Hunter Biden even? He's not even running for office. It's weird the shit these people fall for.

 

[danm999]

Black men have to be better than perfect to come out on top of scrutiny. Old white men are mostly bulletproof. The GOP not working with a black man gets blamed on the black man. The GOP not working with a white man gets blamed on the GOP. Compare Clinton's administration to Obama's for evidence.

I imagine the same is true with a woman.

The one thing Biden has right is that the GOP wouldn't be able to get away with being as obstructive to him as they were with Obama. Which doesn't mean they'd have an actual change of heart. They'd just slip the mask back on.

Wouldn't need them to put the mask back on if we got the Senate majority and killed the filibuster, though. Which Warren has been pushing for from jump and Sanders has started to advocate. Biden, however, does not.

And more than any of his other shortcomings, that's the reason not to vote for Biden in the primaries.

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My honest prediction is that if Biden were the nominee, the GOP would start investigating him over the Hunter Ukraine stuff and try to impeach him. If they won the 2022 mid terms, they would impeach him. They're probably going to try and impeach the next Democratic President next time they get the House regardless of who it is/what they did.

 

[Deleted member 43]

It was in context of The Adder saying that the GOP is going create a narrative that Bernie is bad on race issues.

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Well that's stilly too.

None of the attacks you've listed will seriously hurt Biden with the moderate electorate, and not a single one is as damaging as "Jew" or "socialist."

Again, for Bernie to win, he needs to bring in new voters. The people we already know will vote will have plenty of reasons to hate him by Election Day.

 

[KHarvey16]

I said he'd dissipate electoral energy, not motivate a larger backlash. The backlash, as I said, is going to be there for any Democrat.

What's important is, how is the Democratic President going to weather it.

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Despite having more support he'll "dissipate electoral energy." It seems what you're really arguing is it'll just be disappointing to you if he wins.

 

[BADMAN]

Well that's stilly too.

None of the attacks you've listed will seriously hurt Biden with the moderate electorate, and not a single one is as damaging as "Jew" or "socialist."

Again, for Bernie to win, he needs to bring in new voters. The people we already know will vote will have plenty of reasons to hate him by Election Day.

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That's the secret sauce.

 

[Deleted member 43]

My honest prediction is that if Biden were the nominee, the GOP would start investigating him over the Hunter Ukraine stuff and try to impeach him. If they won the 2022 mid terms, they would impeach him. They're probably going to try and impeach the next Democratic President next time they get the House regardless of who it is/what they did.

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There isn't anything to the Ukraine stuff, but yeah, I agree the GOP will investigate whoever the Dem is. Hell, I got called in once to testify before a House committee because of Issa's pointless investigations of the President. So it's kinda a moot point in this discussion.

That's the secret sauce.

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OK, but we have heard that song and dance before and it rarely happens. Nothing about that outcome in anything close to guaranteed, or even probable.

But it's possible, and would be amazing if it did happen.

 

[danm999]

Despite having more support he'll "dissipate electoral energy." It seems what you're really arguing is it'll just be disappointing to you if he wins.

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Yes that's right. People will go with him because they think he can win, and they want Trump out of there, there isn't much thought put into what he will do if he wins, and what the consequences of that will be.

 

[The Adder]

Yeah you're still coming off as a dick though. I do understand that, my bigger point was that the article you posted isn't an ace in the hole. It'd be a hell of a lot easier to hit someone like Biden with race stuff since he was a law and order democrat that championed the crime bill.

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Firstly, no, that wasn't your point. Stop moving the goal posts.

Secondly, it's no easier or harder. If anything the Crime Bill hits softer because it's a round that's already been fired repeatedly. No major media outlet has actually taken Sanders to task on race. That's new information for 90% of the electorate.

Hillary and pundits were trying very hard to stop Bernie's momentum.

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No. They weren't. He caught a single hard elbow the entire primary in Florida when they went in hard on his having said pro-Castro things in the past and it tanked him in that state.

Things are different now. They CLEARLY are different now.

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There is no evidence of people following policy any closer than they ever have. Politics is sheer personality and soundbytes, not policy wonk. The general public doesn't care what your policy is, they care about the bottom line of how much it's going to tale out of their pocket, how it's going to directly benefit them personally, and how well you can sell those things.

People voted for Democrats last year for neither Medicare for All nor a Public Option. They voted for them because Trump made their healthcare bills go up.

 

[danm999]

There isn't anything to the Ukraine stuff, but yeah, I agree the GOP will investigate whoever the Dem is. Hell, I got called in once to testify before a House committee because of Issa's pointless investigations of the President. So it's kinda a moot point in this discussion.

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Yeah it's basically baked in. Any Democrat is getting investigated and, if possible, impeached. I think a few Republicans have already said they need to impeach the next Democratic President already, which is wild because they don't even know who the fuck that is or when they'll take office lol.

 

[KHarvey16]

Yes that's right. People will go with him because they think he can win, and they want Trump out of there, there isn't much thought put into what he will do if he wins, and what the consequences of that will be.

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But that's just your assertion. Biden has a standard democratic platform. And what relevance are consequences in a Biden specific point if you keep arguing any candidate will face them?

 

[Kyra]

So who has less ammunition against them but is still losing badly to Biden in the polling?

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If you ask me It's Liz. If she can find away to sell her vision of healthcare I dont see what skeletons she has that would be as sticky as the others. Sadly, It may be too late for that. Substance doesnt matter, the harder to understand the attack, the less effective it is. At least if someone attacks Liz and Bernie about Socialism it may open up a discussion about what exactly that means and could be an opportunity to turn that attack into something constructive. When joe is challenged he tells them to vote for other people.

 

[KHarvey16]

If you ask me It's Liz. If she can find away to sell her vision of healthcare I dont see what skeletons she has that would be as sticky as the others. Sadly, It may be too late for that. Substance doesnt matter, the harder to understand the attack, the less effective it is. At least if someone attacks Liz and Bernie about Socialism it may open up a discussion about what exactly that means and could be an opportunity to turn that attack into something constructive. When joe is challenged he tells them to vote for other people.

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But she's losing to both Bernie and Biden. Arguing there's less ammunition against her is either wrong or moot given her position. The electorate is such that relatively far left positions are extremely effective ammunition in a general.

 

[BADMAN]

Firstly, no, that wasn't your point. Stop moving the goal posts.

Secondly, it's no easier or harder. If anything the Crime Bill hits softer because it's a round that's already been fired repeatedly. No major media outlet has actually taken Sanders to task on race. That's new information for 90% of the electorate.


No. They weren't. He caught a single hard elbow the entire primary in Florida when they went in hard on his having said pro-Castro things in the past and it tanked him in that state.



There is no evidence of people following policy any closer than they ever have. Politics is sheer personality and soundbytes, not policy wonk. The general public doesn't care what your policy is, they care about the bottom line of how much it's going to tale out of their pocket, how it's going to directly benefit them personally, and how well you can sell those things.

People voted for neither Democrats last year for Medicare for All nor a Public Option. They voted for them because Trump made their healthcare bills go up.

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Agree to disagree then. One more point though. Sanders policies are hitting regular people because the policies aren't wonky. They're easy for everyone to understand. That's why it's effective. Healthcare for everyone, free public college. You don't have to be a wonk to hear those things and like them. You do have to be a wonk to understand ACA and to a lesser degree, Public option.

 

[danm999]

But that's just your assertion. Biden has a standard democratic platform. And what relevance are consequences in a Biden specific point if you keep arguing any candidate will face them?

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Because if every candidate is going to face those challenges, the difference will be how they deal with them. Biden seems to believe that, if elected, things will get easier and the GOP, or at least the moderates, will become more pliable.

I just don't think that's right. If he's the nominee I think he has to accept the reality the GOP will block him and oppose him at every turn, on an almost universal basis.

 

[Vic Damone Jr.]

Biden's entire campaign is based on him simply existing in the Obama administration, and a built in assumption that in the general, Democratic voters will easily be taken for granted in order to win the megan mccains of the world, instead of the younger voters or convincing voters who have given up on the process to vote through real reasons(IE far more realistic options for expanding the democratic vote against GOP)

Essentially, its an acknowledgement of the overton window shifting in the democratic establishment. they are moderate republicans and belive they have democratic party voters held in chains sufficiently because of how insane the GOP has become to allow them to openly wave that flag.

Of course, as Biden has said, they are banking on convincing people that Trump is an anomaly. Get him out and everything is "back to normal". That's the real goal, to sell people on the status quo for as long as possible.


Its also true that there will be plenty of people who are self defeatists and think this strategy is a winning one, despite losing in 2016 and countless races 2010 through 2015. Even if it were a winning one, does it even matter if the win itself largely is canceled out by pretty much everything else?

If your not playing to advance people's interests, your not playing for anything but to say you won, and if that's the case, for how long does a strategy like that continue to exist in the face of the right wing only growing more and more powerful over it?

If Biden were to hypothetically win by being a republican, and governs as a republican, sharing beers and capitulating to them at every turn under the guise of "bipartisanship" then congratulations, you have essentially just become someone who supports republicans, even if you say your a democrat

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Well said.

People are so shook from 2016 that it is clouding their judgement. The reality is that Trump is hated by the majority of Americans and his base isn't enough to win.

I think basically any Dem is going to win. Bernie might scare away some moderates but he would pick up enough of the youth vote so it doesn't matter. Basically same goes for Biden but in reverse.

Dems should pick who they want the best instead of deluding themselves into thinking they know what Republicans are going to do.

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Its u Dres T'Andre why they're shook but they gotta snap out of it.

And it'll allow the next fascist despot to rise from the GOP trash heap to do the same. 'Normalcy' is how we ended up here. Trump isn't abnormal, he's a creation of the system moderates desperately want to go back to.

The center cannot hold.

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The majority of Americans benefit status quo so they'll run blindly back to it and pay for it in the future like you've stated.

 

[Kill3r7]

If he wins the primary from the votes by other people than so be it.

 

[KHarvey16]

Because if every candidate is going to face those challenges, the difference will be how they deal with them. Biden seems to believe that, if elected, things will get easier and the GOP, or at least the moderates, will become more pliable.

I just don't think that's right. If he's the nominee I think he has to accept the reality the GOP will block him and oppose him at every turn, on an almost universal basis.

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Lol ok so the candidates with further left positions in such an environment are the better answer? They will just yell their positions louder and the deadlocked congress will realize they're wrong and start working again?

 

[Mizeris Lutz Ether Lanai]

In the weapon triangle of politics, you have no choice but to match a husky white man with another husky white man. Or counter him with a Barack Obama, if you unlocked the side quest to get him to join your party.

 

[Foffy]

Why are we trying to push a candidate from the center to get people who have likely normalized their cult leader?

Shouldn't we be focused on increasing voter turnout? We have the demographics; the key is using them in the swing states.

 

[TheGullsHaveBeaks]

Biden is probably the only dem candidate out of the top 4 who won't drive off people into voting for Trump. Most of the republicans Biden will try to convince are people in suburbs who probably voted for Dems in 2018, so Biden not being too far to the left helps his electability argument. I can see the election easily being portrayed as a far left vs far right election and Trump winning if Warren or Sanders win the primary. Some of his problems are completely over exaggerated like several of his speaking "gaffes" which I don't think anyone really cares about.

 

[Tfritz]

does this count as bezoian slander against bernie sanders