I just need a few weirdos on social media's posts to satiate my dark hunger
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WaPo opinion piece: Joe Biden is the candidate of Other People. Is that enough?
- Thread starter Saucycarpdog
- Start date
You won't see that from anyone around here. Hop over in the other thread and even the most ardent Hillary stans from 2016 have said many times they'll vote for Sanders in the general without a moment's hesitation if he is the nominee.
I voted for Sanders in 2016 and voted for Clinton in the general. I'm probably going to vote for Sanders again in the primary unless Warren rebounds, but I'll vote for Biden in the general if he's the nominee (and right now, I think he will be). Anyone who went Bernie or Bust in 2016 is a jerk, anyone who went PUMA in 2008 and voted for McCain is a jerk, anyone who keeps this up next year, regardless of the nominee, is a jerk. Why is this so hard?
I'd say the pettiest thing I'm looking forward to out of a Sanders presidency is his supporters realizing he won't actually be able to wave his magic wand on day one and we'll suddenly have single-payer, legal weed and everyone's student loans paid off, but I actually don't look forward to because I'd rather prefer if those things did happen, and also I suspect many of his disillusioned supporters would simply choose to believe that Sanders himself was the problem all along, rather than recognizing the systemic obstacles that make change in this country extremely difficult at best.
You don't gotta be a dick about it.
The GOP aren't going to bring up a Daily Beast article where some of the prominent black leaders in Vermont had issues with Bernie's lack of focus on racial issues. The liberal leaning corporate media outlets might try to make the general case that Bernie has a race problem, but it'll likely be in bad faith as opposed to bring up actual criticisms.
They brought out the 1970's article last time around and it didn't really gain any traction.
And finally, people like Bernie because he's pushing policies that people want. This isn't the 1990's or even 2012.
Mehhhhhh who cares. The strategy is unchanged: vote for whoever I like (Warren) in the primary. Vote for whoever wins the primary to get Trump out. I don't have time to be a sore loser.
No matter who you support in the Dem primaries, I think we all need to keep in mind how powerful and effective the Republican attack machine is, and how it has yet to be turned on any of the current candidates with full force.
Clinton was one of the most popular politicians in the country before she ran...
I wasn't talking about anyone in particular, but thanks for the breakdown. You definitely out petty-ed me
All the top candidates are too old and the people who vote are too old. There should be an age limit, nobody over 70 should vote or run for office. They don't have enough time left to live with the consequences of their choices and many are in severe mental and/or physical decline.
To be fair, the smear of Clinton was done over decades. It was easy to pick up dirt on her when it was purposely built for them.
My pettiness largely comes from wanting to believe that the left will win and make things better, but repeatedly being burned by voter apathy and ignorance.
2016? Please, I'm still mad about the 2014 and 2010 elections.
Dealing with leftist bandwagoners - some who I know definitively did not vote in 2014, and in some cases even 2012 - jumping down my throat throughout the 2016 campaign for not blindly believing that Sanders would win despite Clinton's consistent lead in the delegate count and resorting to increasingly desperate scenarios to justify the belief that he'd pull it off ("it's okay, all he has to do is win literally all of the delegates in California, totally doable") jaded my view on politics somewhat.
My original point is that I see Biden getting fucked by that machine WAAAAAAYYYY harder than Sanders. The GOP has unsuccessfully attacked socialist policies for the past 4 years. The true strength of their attack machine has always been criticizing establishment democrats for their perceived corruption and entrenchment in the Washington machine.
Mix that with Biden's nonsensical doddering and embarrassing past speeches and I think you have the makings of a fatal attack campaign.
Every one of these politicians has dirt on them to be exploited, much of which is already in oppo folders at the RNC & Trump headquarters. No one will get a free ride, and every one of their approval ratings will take a serious hit once we move to the general.
It's why general polling in the primary season is interesting, but not super telling.
I would post the thisistheworstdayofmylife.jpeg if I had it
It's not easy being this young, sexy, and optimistic, but I make it work
I love Warren but I'm still not super sure if I'm voting Sanders or Warren. Right now it's 50/50 in my mind.
Because Warren and Bernie have class consciousness. Some low class salt of the Earth (R) might tangibly see a benefit from two terms of Warren or Bernie (+ successor) and eventually be more responsible and reasonable when it comes to politics. Nothing will change for him under Biden, he will retreat to bitter and hateful and here comes efficient as hell Fascist 2.0 running for the presidency who isn't dogshit dumb like Trump.
The Fascist right has a better chance of coming back even more powerful with another corporate groveling rich folks first Centrist in power.
To be clear, the GOP has absolutely not attacked Sanders (or any other Dem) with anything close to their full weight. Right now GOP strategists view Sanders as an easier opponent to beat, and are therefore largely laying off him, but again they are saving their big guns for the general For every candidate.
I'm not sure where you got the idea socialist policies are popular enough with the general public that those numbers can't be damaged, or that GOP attacks against such policies have not been effective in the past. They have been, very much so.
ideally i think biden should've been "acting president" in 2016 to see the obama era carried out and then 2020 he tosses it over to whoever. but of course politics isn't that tidy and predictable. i'm down with that same gameplan in 2020. like i'm not doing cartwheels and backflips over biden but if he's the guy ok i guess
Glad that my genuine dismay that Russ Feingold, sole vote against the Patriot Act in the Senate and co-author of the McCain-Feingold campaign finance bill that was gutted by Citizens United (a ruling that I have since been informed was totally supported by the Democratic establishment, bro), lost in 2010 due to sub-50% turnout continues to bring joy to the lives of younger leftists
Clinton is Haiti's Trump. You don't need to manufacture her dirt when it's 90 miles off the coast of FL. She's a hypocrite of the highest order. Democrats need to do better and stop rallying around trash.
Warren is a million times more sincere, better, and genuine person than her. Much more deserving of the presidency.
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It doesn't bring me joy, I've just seen people post it and you acknowledge that it was you. I thought it would be a fun joke. I didn't know the context of your entire online posting history.
Let's be honest, when the article mentions Republicans in 2016 willing to flip on Trump, they were never going to flip for Hillary. Those are the types of voters they're talking about. Could Biden pull it off now? Now that Republicans who are actually somewhat honest with themselves have gotten a taste? Maybe?
Yeah, it was a long con. And then they used her time as SoS as a disadvantage to low information voters. This information war and propaganda game has been going on for a couple decades now, and it really spiked up in 2016 with a lot of *ahem* help.
Then you throw in the SDNY blackmail, Comey, Kremlin black propaganda, millions upon millions of dark money boosting the coffers of GOP operatives around the country to engage in their Kremlin overtures, and then of course polling data and god knows what else handed over to foreign actors.
Curious how those battleground states were of importance. So much importance that after 1 meeting everyone involved pulled a movie mob tactic and all left out of different exits. Nothing there of course, nothing that proved conspiracy. Totally normal election shenanigans.
People think they know what went down in 2016, and they think everyone else already does after 3 years, but they're damn wrong. So so so much fuckery happened, and the Goebbels tactics on Hillary or her own pathetic coasting campaign only scratch the surface of what went wrong in 2016.
I'll never get over how depressing it is that for many the "smart" strategy is trying to flip republicans with inscrutable motivations by going as far right as possible while still keeping your D, but energizing disenfranchised people who don't vote through things like class politics is a fairy tale for idiots. We have a very cool country.
It's really two different questions. Who do you think would win with the same electorate as 2016, and who do you think would win if the makeup of the electorate ends up being radically different?
If it's the former, I think Biden wins enough of those voters. If we need to expand the playing field to win, that looks better for Sanders.
I'm a single issue voter: Need Trump gone. I'd vote for any person or living creature or any inanimate object, gladly, as long as they're not Trump.
With that in mind, despite liking Warren and Bernie just fine, I'd vote Biden in the primary because I truly believe is the most electable in the general, and I think he'd also be a decent president who can be worked with to move things in the right direction.
With that in mind, despite liking Warren and Bernie just fine, I'd vote Biden in the primary because I truly believe is the most electable in the general, and I think he'd also be a decent president who can be worked with to move things in the right direction.
Biden doesn't appeal to swing voters because he's to the right though, he appeals to them because he's a funny old white dude with an explicit connection to the popular Obama presidency.
Just to reiterate, Biden's platform is positioned significantly to Obama's left.
I think your argument really is "this is what I want to be true so I will argue it is."
It's not a coherent or logical position. You just assert a voting group that simply hasn't demonstrated any kind of voting power will suddenly become the difference maker. It's not a supported position.
Lol, this is just assertion. And not even very reasonable or logically supported assertion at that.
It really seems like all of you just argue things for the sole reason you wish they were true. That seems like enough to argue they actually are true. It's going to lead you all to a lot of disappointment.
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Wishcasting defined much of the online discourse surrounding Sanders' candidacy against the establishment favorite (Clinton in 2016, Biden in 2020) last election, doesn't seem like anything's changed.
You were informed very badly, the democratic establishment was against Citizen United, one of the few times Obama broke his usual protocol and frontally attacked the Supreme Court majority. After the judicial decision was made there was little to be done, except to support a constitutional amendment or expect a liberal majority in the Supreme Court reverse the decision.
90%+ of Republicans will vote for Trump no matter what, as historical data from the article suggests. It's a folly to believe Biden can change that in any meaningful way, and certainly not enough to compensate alienated youth democrat voters.
Why would my Black ass want an efficient Trump in power? I don't want to be proven true at all and hope I'm wrong. If Biden wins, he's got 4 years to prove me wrong and make sure Jedidiah doesn't turn to Nazism.
Trump voters can be pulled away, we saw that in 2018.
The election could absolutely be won even if the exact same people voted as in 2016.
It honestly seems bizarre to me that after what Obama dealt with with even perceived leftism you and others think actual far left progressivism is the option that would motivate less blacklash.
They haven't yet, that's true. But they won't be successful when they do. How would you take down someone like Sanders using a bad faith attack machine? It wasn't hard to do for Clinton because people were already susceptible to the idea that she's a part of the corrupt Washington machinery. All Clinton had to do was do the dumb fucking email thing and it got people's minds racing about what she was trying to hide, forwarding on the GOP's narrative.
They don't have something like that for Bernie. The best they can do is try to discredit socialism, which again, I think will backfire on them. Socialism is inherently an outsider ideology in this country and people REALLY want someone outside of the D.C. bubble to be President. I think that reasoning is the main reason why independents went for Trump in 2016. People may not entirely understand what Bernie wants to do, but he'll appear like someone who will bring change to the office and therefore the Government as a whole in the way they wanted Trump to do.
And Bernie has conviction in his policies. One of the reasons the GOP has been so successful in fucking with public opinion on Democratic policies is because the Dems fold on things as soon as the tide starts turning. Their policies are also generally complicated and therefore are easier to obscure and misinform about. And yeah, maybe my bias has blinded me to some degree, but I'm willing to bet that they won't find leverage on Bernie's policies. They are simple to understand and good for everyone at the expense of rich people. Things have gotten bad for working class and middle class people, it's going to be hard to convince people that getting things they need by taking money from the INCREDIBLY WEALTHY is a bad thing.
But we'll see. The industries that Bernie is going after are going to dump an epic shit ton of cash to prevent him from becoming president. If Bloomberg can buy 5% of democratic voter's attention, maybe the GOP and the health insurance industry can buy the votes they need to get Trump reelected.
I still like Bernie's chances over Biden though. All those embarrassing soundbites are going to kill him
Wishcasting defined much of the online discourse surrounding Sanders' candidacy against the establishment favorite (Clinton in 2016, Biden in 2020) last election, doesn't seem like anything's changed.
That reminded me of some fun WA state trivia:
Bernie won the WA state caucus 73 to 27.
Buuuut back then we did a funny little thing: we also had a ballot primary for (reasons) that didn't count but way more people participated in. Caucus was like 26,000, ballot was like 800K.
Bernie lost that 52-47.
We don't do that anymore though; ditched the caucus and now the ballot counts for realsies.
It's not so much that I'm sure that building a coalition of people who don't traditionally vote will work.
It's that I'm sure that building an electoral coalition with Republicans has 0% chance of working. Zip, zilch, nada.
That was sarcasm.
Sanders supporters - who hadn't paid any attention to politics until 2016 and assumed everything wrong with the status quo was Obama's fault - often told me that Obama and the Clintons secretly supported the Citizens United decision. Hillary Clinton supporting the act in Congress as a co-sponsor and decisive vote? Just playing the long game, you mindless sheep. The Clintons were the plaintiffs in the actual Citizens United case (which rewarded the defendants)? Didn't matter, all part of the act. The fact that the SCOTUS justices who were appointed by Obama and Bill Clinton were the four who voted against it? Well you see, Obama and Clinton were just too stupid to anticipate that this would happen, or didn't know how their judges would vote on issues related to campaign finance.
Obviously.
I was also told that Clinton didn't support a constitutional amendment to overturn Citizens United, and when it turned out that whoops, actually she did, she was just lying, of course! Not that a constitutional amendment would have gained any traction though, given how polarized the nation is and how unlikely it is to get 2/3rds of Congress to agree on something that significant. The only way Citizens United will actually get overturned, I would point out, is if Democrats held the presidency and won the Senate majority so they could appoint a Supreme Court justice, either Garland or someone new. But then I was informed that Obama was pushing for Garland because he knew Garland would vote to affirm Citizens United. Again, refer to paragraph 2.
I was also told not to worry about Trump getting elected, because even if he did, there was no way he could get any justices appointed due to Congressional gridlock. I can't say I ever found that argument compelling, but even if I did there's a rapist and a Gorsuch on the Court right now who would dissent with that hypothesis.
That's what I've been dealing with for the last four years. Angry leftists who never gave two flips about politics in their lives until Bernie ran for president, convinced that Obama, Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, Pelosi etc. are the real enemy, that Trump is a joke who could lose to anyone so we might as well just run the most leftist candidate possible and see what happens, and whose political knowledge is woefully inadequate but more than made up for by aimless rage and bluster.
Bernie has been in Congress for 30 years. He is not a Washington outsider, or at least no one will think of him that way when the GOP is done.
Most of your statements are just theories, which could be true, but I don't think we have any data to back them up. What we do know is that socialism has been a boogeyman in America for 100 years, and the GOP will pull every trick possible to make the electorate remember that.
It might not work, but you can't just say it will fail with any certitude.
What leftism did he introduce? He was a centrist. The man described himself as right leaning had he been elected in a previous decade.
Obama went through his nonsense because he was Black, not because any perceived leftism.
If he personally handed Republican voters each a million dollars they'd still call him an N by Sunday. The naive fella wouldn't get the message and would invite them for dinner to change their minds.
You know as well as I do that Bernie is perceived as an outsider. He ran against Hillary Clinton and did an incredible job at it considering he was relatively unknown prior to that. His public perception is inextricably linked to his opposition of Clinton and his major policy differences to the Democratic platform.
But yeah, these are all theories. There's some numerical data to back some of it up but certainly not enough to prove all of my points. We'll see soon enough.
You don't win an election by having the same people show up. If the youth aren't going to show up then we are fucked no matter who the nominee is. The object isn't to try it's to win. We cant try to save the world, we have to do it.
It does not matter how he is perceived now, that's the point. The GOP will attack the idea that he is an outsider, will attack his personal record, will attack socialism, all at a level and intensity that Bernie has never come anywhere close to experiencing. We don't know how he will be perceived a month after the primary ends (if he wins), let alone by Election Day.
Primary results honestly don't matter much for reading the general.
We have the data on these moderate voters. They, shockingly, prefer more moderate candidates. Large swaths of the electorate fall into this category. The most reliable voters fall into this category. It's not enough to just want this to not be true.
Did you read that post?
So he was constantly denigrated as a far left despot preparing to take everyone's guns, issue too many executive orders and lead a government takeover of healthcare just because he was black? That's a dangerous simplification. But it's necessary given what you want to believe about leftism and electability. So you believe it for that reason alone.
Bernie Sanders has been a fucking Washington insider for the last three decades.
This idea that Sanders is some outsider who is immune to right wing smear is devoid of any reality and the fact you so willingly fall for right wing smears against Clinton to try and prove your point that Sanders' is immune, just proves the point even more that some folks are really out of touch with reality.
You say "how would you take down someone like Sanders using a bad faith attack machine", ignoring what the entire concept of "bad faith" is! You are contradicting yourself two sentences into your own post about how Sanders is smear proof using logic that is self contradicting.
Saying shit like "he fights with conviction" is just stupid. It's stupid because it brings this idea that nobody else does, that nobody gives a fuck and he's somehow in all of politics the only person who is capable of saving the human race in some majestic, inhuman way. He fight's with "conviction" because apparently, repeating the same thing for thirty years is what people find inspiring. Nah fuck getting shit done, fuck actually doing politics where you have to inherently compromise when you're dealing with 60 votes (within your own party across two branches of legislature), that shit is WEAK.
Real conviction is having the same stump speech over and over again, where you get to point at a video from 20 years ago and say "See! I have conviction because I'm just saying the same thing", because when ever the conversation is brought up that's literally all anyone ever does.
I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but Sanders is not some magical person that's going to inspire a generation. He didn't do it in 2016, he didn't do it in 2018, and nothing is showing he's doing it now. He's not some underdog that is up against the machine. He's not losing because it's him vs. the world and the world is doing everything to keep him down, no matter how much people keep repeating that same tired bullshit.
Bernie Sanders is DC. Bernie Sanders is politics. Bernie Sanders is not above the bullshit. Bernie Sanders, when the chips are on the table, takes the money and does what any person representing their state does. He has a record of doing it even when it's shit like the Military Industrial Complex, or gun control. It's why people get fucking tired of hearing Sanders as some holy symbol that if criticized simply "doesn't care about working class people", because it's all reductionary bullshit about class warfare.
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The Affordable Care Act was massively redistributive. We also wouldn't be talking about Medicare for All in (somewhat) realistic terms today if it hadn't been passed.
Krugman crunched the numbers better than I could have:
Also can't forget the stimulus bill - Obama pushed for federal stimulus at a time when most countries pursued austerity to deal with the recession, and the end result was the US coming out of it much sooner. Dodd-Frank was also the first significant reform to financial regulations since the Depression after years of deregulation.
I wish he could have gone further but Obama represented a significant shift to the left from the Bush, Reagan and even Clinton policies.
All I'm saying is that Sanders came onto the national stage as an outsider trying to change politics and is continuing to run on that as a part of his core message. That would be a very hard thing to attack him on.
But how does Biden fare against the machine? He's an old guard of the establishment. He has troubles explaining his policies, and only seems to be running off of Obama's legacy and his ability to defeat Trump. He has a bunch of incoherent sound bites and there's a bunch of photos out there of him creepily embracing women. Biden is Karl Rove's wet dream. Do you think it'll be harder for the GOP to take down Biden and Obama's legacy than Bernie and his socialism?
Moderate voters will not redeem or transform the GOP. It will not happen. The party is beyond rehabilitation at this point.
The electorate needs to be changed. It's the only way out.