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WaPo: Bernie Sanders briefed by U.S. officials that Russia is trying to help his presidential campaign
- Thread starter chadskin
- Start date
Oh look Trump realizes hat the more unhinged NeverBerners think he's a Russian plant and is playing into that.
Russia's just engaging in some arbitrage betting (betting on both sides) right now. I think a lot of people are dumb enough to think Russia is doing this because they think Sanders will definitely lose to Trump. No polling supports that and Sanders is already the frontrunner in the Democratic primary. People are too focused on the Russia-Trump connection.
Russia's goal is to distrupt American democracy and sow further division between the two major parties and Americans in general. As much as I love Bernie, he would no doubt cause a great deal of chaos for the political establishment and you know the MSM will do whatever it can to convince the US population that Sanders is just as bad as Trump. I think either side serves Russia's purpose. Trump's just the preferred outcome.
Russia's goal is to distrupt American democracy and sow further division between the two major parties and Americans in general. As much as I love Bernie, he would no doubt cause a great deal of chaos for the political establishment and you know the MSM will do whatever it can to convince the US population that Sanders is just as bad as Trump. I think either side serves Russia's purpose. Trump's just the preferred outcome.
Yeah, they've got their fingers up our butts already. No matter how this goes that's still true.
Having Bernie as President give more speeches about how most of us in the real world have more in common than what we allow to divide us.
Having a way to educate the public about the dangers of the internet.
When you have a Healthy (M4A) educated (free college) society...and a Government that ACTUALLY looks out for your well being...you have less chance of being torn apart by BS.
As much as the Democratic Establishment and MSM try to portray Bernie as a divider.... he has the personality to bring all different types of people together. It would take some time, but as long as we are headed in the right direction..that's what matters.
So people were less divided on issues like race, gender identity, and sexuality from 1930 - 1980?
let's be honest. None of that is correct at all. As society progressed on issues like race, gender identity, and sexuality, people voted against their economic interests to gain back the social hierarchy.
yes. Exactly, the video and his message has never showed how plans to actually counteract. Indeed, the only thing he's done is say white Mississippi Republicans are not racist, and it's not necessarily racist to vote against a PoC simply because you don't feel comfortable voting for PoC.
What is this from, 2002 or so?
Nevermind, description says 2003. Amazing how it continues to occur. Freaking Bush did it in 2004 but putting "traditional marriage" on the ballot, or whatever it was.
Ten points:
1 - as we know, the meddling is already causing division as intended, possibly emboldened by and since Trump's impeachment acquittal;
2 - importantly: the news itself is also causing division -- this may not be intentional on Russia's part, but it would not surprise me -- either way, Russia is not at all hindered by this news becoming public;
3 - the trending hashtags today are likely driven by both Russian trolls and salty NeverBerners;
4 - Russia obviously doesn't want Bernie to actually win the Presidency but they would love a brokered convention that will inevitably enflame and enrage millions of voters one way or another;
5 - they have probably been working for quite some time to ensure Bernie has remained at least viable, through the first few states, by helping impassion his supporters, and depress that of his opponents (as in 2016, passionate supporters is not bad in and of itself, but it's certainly a ticking time bomb);
6 - it's likely a play-by-ear strategy, whereby Russia would want to limit its support of Bernie, were his popularity to go beyond some arbitrary threshold;
7 - Russia will just as easily turn on Bernie during the General, obviously focusing on the "socialism" label, etc, but bear in mind, if Bernie actually ended up winning, this wouldn't be the end of the world for them, they will rebound from any possible perceived backfire with more continuous meddling;
8 - NeverBerners are now poring through Bernie's record to prove that he's a Russian asset, and as expected disinformation is swirling (such as his vote against the original Maginsky act, and against Russian sanctions in the inevitably passed Iranian sanctions bill);
9 - this is going to be a clusterfuck unless everyone calms down and goes through all this information with clear heads, and the media does not jump on this irresponsibly, but.........
10 - fuck
1 - as we know, the meddling is already causing division as intended, possibly emboldened by and since Trump's impeachment acquittal;
2 - importantly: the news itself is also causing division -- this may not be intentional on Russia's part, but it would not surprise me -- either way, Russia is not at all hindered by this news becoming public;
3 - the trending hashtags today are likely driven by both Russian trolls and salty NeverBerners;
4 - Russia obviously doesn't want Bernie to actually win the Presidency but they would love a brokered convention that will inevitably enflame and enrage millions of voters one way or another;
5 - they have probably been working for quite some time to ensure Bernie has remained at least viable, through the first few states, by helping impassion his supporters, and depress that of his opponents (as in 2016, passionate supporters is not bad in and of itself, but it's certainly a ticking time bomb);
6 - it's likely a play-by-ear strategy, whereby Russia would want to limit its support of Bernie, were his popularity to go beyond some arbitrary threshold;
7 - Russia will just as easily turn on Bernie during the General, obviously focusing on the "socialism" label, etc, but bear in mind, if Bernie actually ended up winning, this wouldn't be the end of the world for them, they will rebound from any possible perceived backfire with more continuous meddling;
8 - NeverBerners are now poring through Bernie's record to prove that he's a Russian asset, and as expected disinformation is swirling (such as his vote against the original Maginsky act, and against Russian sanctions in the inevitably passed Iranian sanctions bill);
9 - this is going to be a clusterfuck unless everyone calms down and goes through all this information with clear heads, and the media does not jump on this irresponsibly, but.........
10 - fuck
Obviously, they think Sanders is a weaker national candidate and I don't think they're wrong to assume that. If he gets the nomination, it'll be wall to wall ads saying he's a socialist and he'll take away your private insurance and raise your taxes (and he won't deny any of it) and that's all people would need to hear. People would be willing to deal with four more years of fucking Donald Trump rather than to lose their private insurance and have their taxes go up.
This advice follows a lot of totally unsubstantiated conjecture on your part, just for the record.
Agree on this point.
Look I don't expect him to shove racism up his own ass for it to never be seen again.... but if he has a larger platform, like say The President of the United States.... if he is able to get free health care to 55 year olds..then 45 year olds, etc Make life alittle easier for working class people... and him spreading love and postive energy from the most powerful platform...then I don't know, but I get a feeling that if folks mostly see/feel that with him in charge for 4 years... society might get a little better. As long as we are moving forward again.
And of course it's not only going to be him up there. I know there are some smart geniune good hearted folks from all walks of life that would love to join his administration to help cause change. I just think folks would feel SO MUCH more motivated if he were elected.
I really don't think, at this time, this news will have much of an affect on Bernie at the moment. The whole Bernie = Moscow smear is hardly a new one, and none of this news has any real dynamite.
It probably would have brushed off Trump too had had he not been such a supreme dumbass and carefree about complementing Putin more than once and cheerleading the hacks. Though having Moscow connected staffers on his campaign didn't help and....well the list goes on with Trump.
Bernie is nowhere near that kind of scrutiny, as far as anyone knows. As such, easy to brush off as a smokescreen in light of the more immediate domestic issues at stake.
It probably would have brushed off Trump too had had he not been such a supreme dumbass and carefree about complementing Putin more than once and cheerleading the hacks. Though having Moscow connected staffers on his campaign didn't help and....well the list goes on with Trump.
Bernie is nowhere near that kind of scrutiny, as far as anyone knows. As such, easy to brush off as a smokescreen in light of the more immediate domestic issues at stake.
US and it's media are just going to continue to do their best to normalize foreign interference in our elections period. Nobody in power will do shit, and the media laps this shit up. Putin and any of his allies on this front must be extremely please with how smoothly this is all going. How easy it has been to completely dismantle so many of our systems that were less about rigid structure and more about bullshit decorum and whatever "honor" even means anymore.
Eventually we'll get to a point to where the media is reporting "this Tuesday Putin will be flying in to host a campaign rally for (insert candidate here) and provide dark details on their opponent" and no one will bat an eye.
Eventually we'll get to a point to where the media is reporting "this Tuesday Putin will be flying in to host a campaign rally for (insert candidate here) and provide dark details on their opponent" and no one will bat an eye.
Well let me break it alittle more...
Did ever think you could hear Kellyanne F'n Conway spout for a min and half straight without disagreeing with her?
Watch from 7:54-9:27
Blame the MSM and Democratic Establishment for these easy layups by Donny and Kellyanne.
Whether Sanders would win or lose in the general, Russia would benefit either way.
Sanders is on record as being against eastward-expansion of NATO, meaning he opposes Ukraine becoming a NATO member state. This is absolutely in Russia's interests and against western interests, as a further isolation of Ukraine and potentially falling to Russia would have many repercussions regionally and globally. I'm not saying that not being in NATO would cause this to happen, but it would keep Ukraine more isolated and vulnerable. Sanders also said in 2015 that he'd like a new NATO that includes Russia (https://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2015/11/19/sanders-wants-new-nato-with-russia). This would be extremely problematic considering Russia is working against western interests. A big reason NATO exists is to stop Russian expansion.
I don't think Bernie is colluding with Russia or anything, but he has some really naive views about our relationship with Putin's Russia. So yeah, I think Putin would find a Sanders presidency beneficial to him, but Putin is probably quite fine also with the Russian agent they already have installed in the White House.
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People will be fine with that because premiums will go down. The hang up is that they don't how much those premiums will decrease.
Hopefully since during the general election we would be focusing on only 3 candidates (someone will try to run as an independent party spoiler) Sander's team can sufficiently explain the trade offs to their satisfaction.
So Bernie doesn't want NATO to expand eastward...but he wants a new NATO that expands to include eastern countries. Gotcha.
You know, wanting to bring Russia into the international community isn't naive, it's an acknowledgment that isolating them has only ever led to more aggressive actions by Russia and less reliable diplomatic channels to work through to address that aggression.
It's a resource cursed autocracy that's terrified of western encroachment and lashes out whenever it sees an action they deem as overreaching. Putin's actions aren't complicated to understand. If Russia's in a new NATO they may become less skittish since they hold some levers of power within the power structure (NATO) the US and other western nations would use to potentially weaken Russia.
Doesn't NATO partiaully exist as a kind of military-backed geopolitical Hadrian's Wall against Russia?
Let's face it, Republicans are going to do that anyway no matter who the candidate is. The difference between Bernie and the other candidates is that he has integrity. Which actually makes him harder to attack.
And who is supposed to be the "stronger" democratic candidate anyway? The half demented Joe Biden? lol
Americans don't care about nuance. We mostly care about our own situations. From what I've read, people that actually have insurance are happy with it. Telling people that they'll lose their private insurance, pay higher taxes for who knows how long, and then at some point down the line they might see lower premiums would be a disaster. Trump and his assholes would only need to claim that Bernie will get rid of their insurance and they'll pay higher taxes. Simple and effective. The irony is that even if Sanders would win, moderate Dems in Congress would never pass his plan.
No. The only difference is that Bernie would actually say, "Yes. I want to get rid of your insurance and you'll pay higher taxes." Like I said, that would be a disaster. Think of all the ads with sound bites of him saying that he'll get rid of your insurance and you'll pay higher taxes. No other Dems would have audio and video saying something so politically damaging.
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Ukraine also is nowhere near ready to become a NATO member. Between the currently unresolved occupied territory issues, its extreme poverty (relative to Europe) and general government house cleaning, it's just way too premature. Grooming Ukraine into EU membership is a more viable path but even that is on the distant horizon.
I agree that Ukraine should not be isolated and should be helped, but there is a very long road ahead to get that country on its feet.
I agree that Ukraine should not be isolated and should be helped, but there is a very long road ahead to get that country on its feet.
That's why there's an argument that it's outdated. It was originally made as a preventative measure against any possible retaliation by Germany or the Soviet Union following WWII. These days Russia isn't a super power anymore and their main objective is built around maintaining their own sphere of influence (which they think includes former Soviet Union states much to the chagrin of the west).
A new NATO with Russia and Arab states included would basically seek to prevent any power from attacking any other power, period. You know, instead of being built around keeping Russia from taking former Soviet states.
Pretty sure he is not going to frame it this way. And the tax raises aren't aimed at the lower and middle class which make up 90+% of the voters.
Do you think Russia advanced into crimea in 2017? The 2017 bill was bullshit, it escalated tensions with Iran and basically unloaded every economic bad consequence to the EU.
Dude if the rest of candidates were stonger they would be beating him right now like Hillary was. They're really not so he's the best shot you got.
Arguing that Bernie will take insurance away by giving everyone insurance seems a bit odd. Not to mention most people I know personally couldn't care less about their private insurance. It's their doctors and physicians they have through that insurance they want to keep, which they still can under a Medicare-For-All system. What's private insurance going to provide that M4A doesn't when M4A even includes eye glasses, hearing aids, and dental insurance? It's just a silly premise imo.
Secondly, it's not hard to say, "Your taxes go up, but you pay no premiums, co-pays, or anything else on your insurance so you end up paying less overall." That's pretty easy to understand if you ask me.
Thirdly, I'm not as concerned with the "Bernie's a socialist and socialism is bad!" argument. The GOP has been calling Democrats socialists since forever. Heck, they called Obama a socialist, which is one of the dumbest things you could possibly say. The term has lost all meaning at this point.
This is the angle I believe is true. Sure, he is polling well, but he is also a wild card.
I know the underlined part is effective, but I just don't get why. It takes very few dealings with private insurance to realize it absolutely sucks for all parties involved but the insurer.
If Bernie ends up being the nom, he really needs to hammer home what a mess our insurance system is. He does a good job with the macro view, but he needs to focus on the micro as well. Like, "Have you ever noticed that your insurance....fucking sucks? Do you actually like pouring over legalese trying to figure out what your plan does or does not cover? Do you enjoy watching your healthcare provider try to estimate what your MRI will cost out of pocket? Are you a big fan of getting surprise bills months after the fact for services you thought were covered? Are you aware that you pay for the care of the uninsured (including those scary brown illegals) in the form of ever-higher premiums? Have you ever stopped to consider that your premiums and co-pays are effectively taxes?"
Like, I just don't get why there are so many working folk who are scared to give this up in favor of: no premiums, no co-pays, no deductibles, and about 1/10th the amount of legalese and red tape to deal with. In a sane world, this would be a really easy sell.
A thousand times this and a good summary of a point I made in passing earlier. The "taking away private insurance" line is just asinine. It completely ignores how odious private insurance is for the consumer. Once again, most people want to keep THEIR DOCTORS AND PHYSICIANS the private insurance provides, not the private insurance itself. If you give them a Medicare-For-All plan that lets them keep their doctors they'll be more than satisfied.
It'll likely be a question asked during a debate that he'll have to respond to. Everyone would have to pay more in taxes. You can't raise the kind of money he would need for single-payer by just taxing the rich and corporations. You'd need everyone to pay more.
It's easier than you think. "Like your current insurance? Bernie will take it away." Like I said, his plan requires too much nuance. He can't have it both ways. Everyone's covered, but you'll also lose your current insurance and you'll pay more in taxes. Single-payer is just a hard sell. It requires people to forget about how insurnace has always worked and be willing to pay more in taxes to try something new. I just don't see people wanting to rock the boat. The ACA was a walk in the park compared to uprooting the entire system. Besides, if the government ran the entire healthcare system, can you imagine the fuckery that Republicans would try in terms of killing plans and feeding contracts to their pharmaceutical friends?
Oh you mean the Russia that has been openly and nakedly trying to incrementally take back former Soviet States by destabilizing their governments, installing pro-Russia oligarchs and actual military land invasions? The Russia fighting a hot land war in the Ukraine? A war solely designed to take back former Soviet territory? The Russia that invaded its neighbors? The Russia that has bet its entire economy on energy and is being starved by a parasitical dictator and his cronies? That Russia? The one that blackmails its European neighbors with natural gas shortages? The one that is building neo nazi movements in every western democracy it can to destabilize them and improve Russia's position? I'd love for Russia to become a part of or a partner to Europe - Russia has and had the potential to be a world-beating economy - a technological, manufacturing and agricultural and energy powerhouse - but what you're suggesting is impossible until Putin is removed from power and Russian democracy is repaired. And there's zero sign of that happening.
Russia could and should be one of the shining beacons of Democracy in the world. It had the opportunity post-Glasnost, but the efforts of a single opportunist have paused that development for almost two decades. Like the US, it's a potentially incredible positive influence on the world, stymied by greed and power concentrated into one pair of literally evil hands - and the sooner he's gone, the better off the whole world will be.
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well every other country has voted for their own crazy candidate that would change everything, Bernie is the only chance that we'll ever get when it comes to actual change
This is one of the best campaign videos I've seen. Incredible
But that's just the thing. Moderate Democrats in Congress will never allow this to happen. You think Nancy Pelosi or Chuck Schumer (assuming Dems can even take back the Senate) would ever allow single-payer? Do you think congressmen with large private insurance companies in their states will just say, "Sure. Let's do single-payer and puts thousands of people in my state out of work." I'm afraid we're stuck with what we have. Imo, if we targeted hospitals and drugs companies and stopped them from overcharging, that would be a great start. Insurance companies raise rates because hospitals and drug companies keep their raising prices. We'd still need to figure out how to get more people covered, but at least then you're helping people avoid getting screwed by overbilling for things that they need.
That's neither full of nuance or a hard sell. Try harder.
Nobody likes their insurance, by the way.
this the media market is gonna need to be restructured (perhaps a return of the fairness doctrine) for any long term systemic fixes....which requires a dem majority on all three levels in all likelyhood...which is oh god we are soooo fucked.
Yes, that man was Boris Yeltsin and he would not have become president of Russia if it weren't for US meddling.
It is absolutely frustrating to watch some people on the left completely absorbed in what the Republicans will do. At some point we have to stop worrying about their bullshit and just push as hard as we can. The people who constantly concern troll about what is actually possible would be far more useful if they stopped pulling to the right and started pulling left.
This is Limbaugh / Jones level of conspiracy theory peddling.
Is it? I don't think it's hard to believe that wealthy democrats would take Trump over Bernie. Wealthy people will do whatever it takes to protect their own interests as we've seen again and again.
Just look at the media coverage surrounding Bernie.