Wanting more accessible fight games=wanting button mashing, wanting games to be "dumbed down"?

[fireflame]

On another thread about a famous hack and slash, I read the statement that many people here wanted fight games to be "dumbed down" into button-mashing...This felt a bit dismissive, and I think there are is another way, more constructive, to view the problem

We often talk about the learning curve in fight games, and how they can e frustrating to many people. The complexity of combos and special moves probably plays a part in that frustration.

However, why couldn't we make very accessible fight games without "annoying" experts of the genre who could stay on games they like? Other factors than buttons can be introduced to make fights interesting but are not often mentioned. For example, we could imagine games with easy combos and special moves, where everything would reside in a sense of timing.

Or fight games with weapons where each weapon would have a specificity, weight, reach?here are probably many other factors i am not thinking about, but that a talented gae designed could introduce, to offer an accessible experience where learning doesn't rely only in pressing a series of buttons wtih right timing.
The problem I see is that we keep associating fight games to "execution", the same way starcraft games are associated with the number of actions per minute you can perform.

Because fight games have made us used to execution and complex combos, we think there is no other way, at least, not if you intend to make the game a reference among fight games.

 

[Gilver]

Its not a problem if you like it that way. Essentially different strokes.

 

[Just Great]

These games already exist and no one plays them.

 

[Zuly]

Nowdays, most fighters have auto-combos or press the same button in 4 directions to do a combo and people will still get blown up by players with a lifetime of experience or a solid understanding of fundamentals. The first thing people fail to learn in fighting games are fundamentals and that will carry you a long way. Learning combos is just extra.

 

[Type-Zero]

This is a topic often discussed due to the nature of fighting games. The catch 22 is that fighting games have evolved alot since its conception to what it is now which many fans enjoy the satisfaction of skill and mindset paying off. The people who just dabble in the genre are not really invested and making it simplified in its current state will lose both audiences. My opinion is a new shift to new fighters is necessary if you attach an old series to a new way to play you upset both. But no one is willing to start fresh cause its too late for that.

 

[A Strong Latte]

The hardest part of the game isn't combo execution or special moves, its the mental game

 

[faceless]

There are already games that do this and they just aren't popular.

People can already play turn based games where execution literally is not a barrier.

 

[Harken Raiser]

What you're describing sounds a lot like Bushido Blade, OP.

 

[Spacejaws]

The only thing I want is things like down, back instead of down, down back, back to make it easier in pad players. So many controller D Pads suck for that movement and greatly gives advantage to fight stick players.

 

[Mesoian]

These games already exist and no one plays them.

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DBFZ is doing okay.

But yeah, I think we talked about it in the other fighting game accessibility thread, but easy special moves and simple combos don't really help when people don't learn the fundamentals of the game. Sure they look flashy and maybe you can do a 50% combo every once in a while, but people are more frustrated by getting put in the blender because they don't know how to get out of the corner with their character of choice, but often don't know how to vocalize that, so it comes out as "but these combos though".

There's so much more to learn about fighting games than just doing combos and that fact is what's not well telegraphed in modern fighting games. The extent of training in most games that come out now is "do these target combos, okay we have nothing left for you".

If you can get in on someone, spamming an auto combo is fine. You won that fight. You won your turn.

What you're describing sounds a lot like Bushido Blade, OP.

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Or the new SamSho.

The only thing I want is things like down, back instead of down, down back, back to make it easier in pad players. So many controller D Pads suck for that movement and greatly gives advantage to fight stick players.

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This is just me, but MK control schemes are way harder for me than Japanese fighting game control schemes, and I play pad.

Rolling is way simpler for me.. That being said, when I can, I use a saturn pad.

 

[faceless]

The only thing I want is things like down, back instead of down, down back, back to make it easier in pad players. So many controller D Pads suck for that movement and greatly gives advantage to fight stick players.

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But lots of pros use dpads.

 

[Squarehard]

What you describe exist, but in older game franchises, many of which aren't around for a few gens now.

 

[Spacejaws]

But lots of pros use dpads.

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They are pro's lol. Some play ranked with controllers upside down for a laugh.

 

[Fancolours]

My guy, plenty of games have simplified execution and still retain complex decision making, but everyone (specially a lot of people asking for them) ignores them, except the people who actually care about fighting games.

 

[faceless]

The hardest part of the game isn't combo execution or special moves, its the mental game

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Yep. Some people think 'i could win if I could do that damaging combo' without even considering they would have to find the opening against their opponent to actually land that damaging combo.

 

[P00PNINJAMVC3MK]

We got a shit ton of arena fighters, Fantasy Strike, HeroVS, Power Ranger BFTG and more for your accessible needs. Nobody is playing them.

 

[Xeno]

If you are a casual player, you are inevitably going to run into someone who beats you, simply because they have better execution. That's frustrating, but it's a staple of fighting games. As others have said, many fighters have tried to lower the barrier for entry, and no one plays them.

If execution is an issue, then I would recommend turning to MOBAs. That's what I did. I love Street Fighter, but I've played Smite way more than any SF game, because it's accessible and I don't have to practice.

 

[faceless]

They are pro's lol. Some play ranked with controllers upside down for a laugh.

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point is the controller works. maybe the advantage is the person holding the controller?

 

[DatManOvaDer]

Because this comes up again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
These games that simplify execution already exist but the people that ask for them never fucking play them.
Its so extremely tiring at this point.
The people who claim to want the execution simplified so they can play them will just complain about something else.

 

[Banana Aeon]

Easier inputs don't mean you ain't going to get hit by a mixup. Specialized stats aren't going stop people from always jumping. Auto combos aren't going to teach you how to anti-air.

No matter the ease of the fighting game, it still is going to require you to invest some time into learning the game. Not just the basics. The mechanical feel and how everything works in conjunction. Most people don't respect the genre enough to do so.

 

[Mesoian]

Like, I seriously worry about GBVS because it's exactly what OP is describing, but people are still gonna get scared off the first time they get hit with a 70% combo, which are WAY EASIER to do since it has a simplified control scheme.

 

[Harken Raiser]

Or the new SamSho.

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Yeah, but the OP mentioning various weapons made me think of how you can equip different weapons in Bushido Blade, as opposed to SamSho where the weapon is the character.

This might also be up the OP's alley:

 

[Sanox]

The only thing I want is things like down, back instead of down, down back, back to make it easier in pad players. So many controller D Pads suck for that movement and greatly gives advantage to fight stick players.

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But motions are no problem on pad

 

[Mesoian]

Yeah, but the OP mentioning various weapons made me think of how you can equip different weapons in Bushido Blade, as opposed to SamSho where the weapon is the character.

This might also be up the OP's alley:

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Maybe For Honor as well. Man that game turned around in a big way.

 

[Platy]

Thanks for making it very clear what you mean by making games acessible.
The discussion often leaves nowhere because each people have a different meaning to what they think acessible means in a fighting game



That Arc Sys game based on that mobile game have one button specials that work behind cooldowns ... so it will be interesting to see.

 

[Banana Aeon]

Thanks for making it very clear what you mean by making games acessible.
The discussion often leaves nowhere because each people have a different meaning to what they think acessible means in a fighting game



That Arc Sys game based on that mobile game have one button specials that work behind cooldowns ... so it will be interesting to see.

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Outside of instant charge attacks woth Charlotta, I don't see much use for them. Lower damage and worse properties than just doing the motion.

 

[Harken Raiser]

Have you tried out Fantasy Strike, OP?

Maybe For Honor as well. Man that game turned around in a big way.

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That's very true, if someone's looking for a non-traditional fighting game that has a healthy player base then For Honor is the way to go.

 

[A Strong Latte]

Yep. Some people think 'i could win if I could do that damaging combo' without even considering they would have to find the opening against their opponent to actually land that damaging combo.

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I used to see heaps of players in sfv ranked than when given an opening would reel off a perfect punish combo but just couldn't do shit in the neutral ever so I'd just beat em anyway. The problem is perception and I think it's hard to teach proper strategy.

 

[VariantX]

We got a shit ton of arena fighters, Fantasy Strike, HeroVS, Power Ranger BFTG and more for your accessible needs. Nobody is playing them.

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Yep.

Because this comes up again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
These games that simplify execution already exist but the people that ask for them never fucking play them.
Its so extremely tiring at this point.
The people who claim to want the execution simplified so they can play them will just complain about something else.

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Its true. These games have been out there for years. Going all the way back to shit like Gundam vs and Naruto Gekitou Ninja Taisen

 

[Sera]

Wasn't drop kick designed to be accessible?

 

[SoH]

Just put the blue turtle shell into Street Fighter and get it over with already.

 

[Iori Loco]

Just put the blue turtle shell into Street Fighter and get it over with already.

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Weren't those called ultras? Kappa

 

[A Strong Latte]

Gundam VS is actually a pretty good take ona low/no execution fighter and i think that's why it's so popular in japan. The arcades were always popping with gundam when i was there

 

[Master Milk]

the problem is you can't cure stupid or lazy by designing the game a little differently

 

[Zolbrod]

I think DBFZ is the perfect example of doing it right.
It's got auto-combos and super simple controls, so anyone can pull off flashy moves with ease, but there's still a huge skill level gap.

 

[SoH]

Weren't those called ultras? Kappa

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wake up ultras should be guaranteed hits do not at me

 

[Spacejaws]

But motions are no problem on pad

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Tell that to my Switch Pro Controller.

 

[smurfx]

Because this comes up again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
These games that simplify execution already exist but the people that ask for them never fucking play them.
Its so extremely tiring at this point.
The people who claim to want the execution simplified so they can play them will just complain about something else.

Click to shrink...

i think they mostly want to be able to beat good players but that will never happen because good players will always take advantage of any features made to simplify the game.

 

[Jaded Alyx]

The only thing I want is things like down, back instead of down, down back, back to make it easier in pad players. So many controller D Pads suck for that movement and greatly gives advantage to fight stick players.

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Tell that to my Switch Pro Controller.

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You get a better d-pad if you're having issues. No fighting game is really designed nowadays for fightsticks primarily, especially in terms of movement.

This thread goes the same way each time. People complain about fighting games not being accessible, people point out that there are plenty of FGs out there based around the entire point of making it easy to play. People don't care. Even the well known established titles are easier now than they've ever been.

Just don't think that "accessible" means you'd stand a chance against people who know fundamentals. Being able to do combos and moves easily might make it more fun for you but it won't necessarily make you better.

 

[Sanox]

Even if people who say they want the games to be more accessible don't intend for them to be dumbed down its ultimately going to be the result. You can't simplify a character without taking away things or not allowing characters to really shine in aspects that make the character unique. Just look at Zamasu in Fighterz how he turned out and what could have been when you think about a character with flight mode in a vs like game designed by Arc Sys

BBTag with its tag mechanics ended up being anything but accessible but if you look at individual characters you see what happens when you simplify characters. Yes they had to be a bit simpler due to the tag mechanics but it still works as a comparison given Daisuke Ishiwatari's intentions for the new GG. When you compare the BB characters in Tag to Central Fiction it just makes you sad and I don't even wanna think about that the new GG could end up even worse when it comes to character movesets and their individual depth

 

[Zero-ELEC]

However, why couldn't we make very accessible fight games without "annoying" experts of the genre who could stay on games they like? Other factors than buttons can be introduced to make fights interesting but are not often mentioned. For example, we could imagine games with easy combos and special moves, where everything would reside in a sense of timing.

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Those are done, they exist.

Play DBFZ (relatively easy inputs, autocombos) or MvCI (easy hypers, auto combo) or Fantasy Strike (simple inputs), Divekick (literally two buttons) or any arena fighter (easy inputs all around)? Heck, play Smash Bros., Slap City, Rivals of Aether! Any platform fighter!

 

[Jaded Alyx]

Because this comes up again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
These games that simplify execution already exist but the people that ask for them never fucking play them.
Its so extremely tiring at this point.
The people who claim to want the execution simplified so they can play them will just complain about something else.

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A thousand times this.

 

[Spacejaws]

You get a better d-pad if you're having issues. No fighting game is really designed nowadays for fightsticks primarily, especially in terms of movement.

This thread goes the same way each time. People complain about fighting games not being accessible, people point out that there are plenty of FGs out there based around the entire point of making it easy to play. People don't care. Even the well known established titles are easier now than they've ever been.

Just don't think that "accessible" means you'd stand a chance against people who know fundamentals. Being able to do combos and moves easily might make it more fun for you but it won't necessarily make you better.

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In my post I said fighting games are plenty accessible. Just this is one thing I think would be a good change. Mortal Kombat does do this and all it translates as is what you want to happen in game comes out more often.

I don't think there's any extra fundamentals or skill needed to drag your thumb across a diagonal space.

Edit* Just realized I changed my first post before I posted it. Originally I meant to say I think fighting games are plenty accessible but I do think that movement is a barrier for new people and I don't really see any legitimate reason why you have to drag through a diagonal movement other than it's tradition. As someone who has started trying to learn fighters after a long hiatus the d pad movements are one of the biggest hurdles and the stock Xbox and Nintendo controllers are dreadful for them.

 

[Mesoian]

Tell that to my Switch Pro Controller.

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The Switch Pro controller is bummy.

Wish I never bought it.

 

[Jaded Alyx]

In my post I said fighting games are plenty accessible. Just this is one thing I think would be a good change. Mortal Kombat does do this and all it translates as is what you want to happen in game comes out more often.

I don't think there's any extra fundamentals or skill needed to drag your thumb across a diagonal space.

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The rest of my post was addressing the OP/thread. But again even so, there are many fighting games that don't use Street Fighter style motion inputs.

 

[Snormy]

A lot of this comes back to the commitment of the player and willingness to learn through practice and study. Study sounds like a chore but sometimes it is as simple as thinking about what you did wrong in the previous match. Or how you might beat an opponent if they repeated the same actions against you.

I'm not going to say execution is not important and the same for combos but I think the idea that long complex combos are mandatory is hugely overblown, especially for casual play. Strong fundamentals is way more important. Knowing when to use what attacks, where to stand in terms of distance to each opponent. If you only practice how to execute strong combos it won't help you in forcing the opportunities to use said combos. Few combos are also always flawless in the sense that depending on the animation of the charcter you hit, the distance and state the combo may or may not be as effective. The simplest example would be that if your combo is meant for a standing target and you begin on a target who is jumping at you, even if you connect and execute perfectly the game's physics/rules may result in the enemy displaced and the combo breaking. It is a constant process of learning, adapting, improving.

That said, there are some execution that I dislike because I don't practice and I sort of wish were easier. On the other hand these are generally more complex moves that aren't fundamental so 🤷‍♂️

 

[Tribal24]

Because this comes up again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again
These games that simplify execution already exist but the people that ask for them never fucking play them.
Its so extremely tiring at this point.
The people who claim to want the execution simplified so they can play them will just complain about something else.

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Yup it is tiring, same people over time ruining fighting game complexities over time.

 

[MysticGon]

One button fighters can have depth.

 

[BeaconofTruth]

Because a lot of that stuff already exists? Fighting game inputs have never been easier to do, with all the negative edge. Combo conversions aren't such a massive issue with how long hit stun is on some of these games now. DBFZ literally lets you skip neutral with the press of a button, and has a powerful anti-air that automatically goes into a combo.

Simply put it is not an input thing exclusively. The only areas fighting games have left to really be accessible is

-better teaching tools n options for the long game (People should be allowed to post tech n combos they find in the game, not me having to search twitter)
-More clear visual feedback on when I am plus or negative or wildly unsafe.

At the end of the day it still comes down the following thing: fighting games are one v one, you have no one else to blame when you lose, there is no meta game no stat, no medals to make you feel better about playing bad the way shooters can still make you feel good about yourself, even if you were technically bad in those games as well. You have to put in the work in those games to actually get better and learn.

Fighting games can certainly do more single player content, look great visually, and dear god PLS FIX THE FUCKING NETCODES!! to appeal to a larger base, but you can not change the part whether its a shallow fighting game or a deep one, the part where if you want to win, and win consistently, you're gonna have to grind matches and lab some stuff out.

Call it what it actually is: scrub talk.

 

[Ferrio]

I wish people had the drive to actually play these games as much as they do to bitch about how they don't play them.

We had this same thread a week before, and the week before that, maybe two in the same week. It was funny at first, but after seeing this same argument over 20 years on the internet it's tiring.