I clicked the video expecting bullshit but he was right in the big picture. Unions need leverage and the people who would need union protection don't have any.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Want AAA Games? Embrace Crunch, Reject Unions!
- Thread starter Deleted member 8196
- Start date
In this context we're talking about unionizing as means to abolish/lessen crunch. When in practice, Unions = no crunch is not nearly as simple a solution as it sounds.
Going to go against the grain here, but Jaffe is right about this I think. For those that didn't watch, he's not saying that unions are bad or that AAA devs don't deserve better working conditions as the click-baity thread title suggests.
He's saying that the average dev doesn't have a leg to stand in terms of bargaining with a publisher because cheap overseas outsourcing is aways available. He also compares it to the Hollywood VFX industry (a valid comparison imo), which is completely fucked atm since it has to operate on razor thin margins and compete with cheaper options in Asia.
He's saying that the average dev doesn't have a leg to stand in terms of bargaining with a publisher because cheap overseas outsourcing is aways available. He also compares it to the Hollywood VFX industry (a valid comparison imo), which is completely fucked atm since it has to operate on razor thin margins and compete with cheaper options in Asia.
It will force measures to either eliminate it or alleviate considerably. Otherwise the industry is condemned to either burn out their employees or make them sick to death in the worse case scenario. This cannot continue! (Nier:A reference)
Yikes. Milo is one internet personality that is pretty much certifiably evil. Yet Jaffe is apparently confused why people shout him down.
What's funny is that outside of the VFX industry, Hollywood in general is heavily unionized. The VFX industry in bound to unionze too, because right now is unsustainable as well.
Even assuming that the entire industry unionizing is a realistic scenario (it isn't), if it happened, it wouldn't be able to solve the underlying complexity problem that leads to crunch. The result of forceful elimination of crunch would be ballooning budgets, insanely long dev cycles and much less fun/polished games with a lot less content. The result of which will be studios closing and going bankrupt.
Why do you think they haven't/can't unionize? Because they have competition from abroad. They don't have leverage because the studios can just go to other VFX houses in countries without unions and with more attractive tax subsidies. He actually explains this in the video. You need leverage to have collective bargaining power.
Actually, game devs would have a lot more leverage than VFX studios. Much of the work isn't easily outsourced.
Yeah for sure, but Jaffe's point is that if the work is 100% digital (no one is actually required to be on location), it makes those workers disposable to large studios/publishers/etc as there are always skilled workers overseas that will be cheaper and easier to work with. Which is why both the VFX and AAA game industries are fucked.
What about all the successful AAA games that people like? They had crunch too. It'd easy to shit on game s like anthem. We all saw the train wreck, but should games like The Witcher, The Last of Us, God of War, Halo, Assassins Creed, and so on not exist? Whose to say all those games weren't mismanaged as well? I'd be willing to bet they all had crunch. Only pub I'm not sure crunches is Nintendo, but after hearing stories about how hard Iwata worked....
Tech companies tried the whole outsource everything approach years ago and it ended up blowing up in their faces. The quality of the work is so subpar and it affects the bottom line.
His previous statements have nothing to do with this, and clearly you didn't watch the video because he said nothing about consumers having to pay. So what is the real reason you felt the need to comment. I'm. Not sure it has anything to do with the thread.
That relies on having management that gets the most out of those opportunities. Look at Mass Effect: Andromeda and Horizon Zero Dawn for examples of why it doesn't and does work, respectively.
That's usual liberal fearmongering. Better working conditions don't kill industries unless the profit margins are made entirely of working people to death, in that case, it should die. Actually better and sane working conditions easily leads to better productivity that could easily offset the need of crunch or better production methods to better organize devs work which would improve the development flow and aliviate the need to iterate or extra months of polish.
You're oversimplifying. It's not all about productivity. The work required to make a game isn't just a neatly organized stack of papers that you can work down at a steady pace. Making a game fun very heavily depends on iteration and trying out things, and both things make it hard or impossible to accurately plan or stick to a schedule. Especially in AAA where the technology is being built in parallel to the game, and needs to be cutting edge.
EA won't be able to replace all it's state side studios with outside workforce. In the same way that outside studios won't be able to handle the amount of VFX work needed for the super productions, as much as they work to death their workers. Disney and the other megastudios will need to pay better and improve VFX working rights with the billions of dollars they make each year or enjoy subpar CG quality for their movies or go back to practical effects....
Then it should stop being cutting edge. Is ok, we'll survive.
Throw out AAA games, then. I like AAA games just fine from a personal standpoint, but no amount of entertainment is worth it if it's built on the backs of other people's health and work/life balance (which, in the case of AAA games, it is).
Sadly AAA games aren't going anywhere no matter what we think, but I'd gladly trade them in for a unionized game industry and happier, healthier development teams. Gladly.
Sadly AAA games aren't going anywhere no matter what we think, but I'd gladly trade them in for a unionized game industry and happier, healthier development teams. Gladly.
I can see his points. He is basically saying that crunch is bad (of course no one likes it) and in the perfect Alice in Wonderland world we wouldn´t need it. But in reality, AAA studios that try to move the industry forward and sell bazillions of copies will always utilize it not only to reach a release day target, but also to move technology forward and not take too long to release something that will impress people and sell well. Also not sure how people say he is crazy or dont know what he is talking about when the guy literally lived and experienced that.
Not only is this a ridiculous statement, as we're on ERA of all places, but it ignores why things got to the point that they're at. Some people along the way decided that the DO want to be cutting edge and the market rewarded them for it. So they set the baseline expectation of what cutting edge entails higher for everyone else.
Maybe it is fine if things move a little slower forward then. Though arguably, indie games and smaller games have moved the industry more in the last decade than AAA titles have.
Anyway, you can have both unions and crunch at the same time. The job of unions would merely be to limit how unreasonable it could get, maybe ensure decent compensation etc.
Honestly, my favorite games this year were Disco Elysium and Pathologic 2, both indie passion projects and one of them made by actual communists. The best the medium has to offer isn't even being explored by AAA, so nothing of value will be lost if they fade away. In fact, we may get more unique and interesting experiences like the aforementioned games.
I don't know that youtuber but he seems a bit drunk. Though, he's a bit right.
I don't get people that say "there will be no crunch on Cyberpunk because delays". I don't know a lot of AAA games that don't get delays. The first date that we get is always over optimistic. It's the same in IT. Marketers and execs want the fastest but it's the best way to burnout your workforce.
I don't get people that say "there will be no crunch on Cyberpunk because delays". I don't know a lot of AAA games that don't get delays. The first date that we get is always over optimistic. It's the same in IT. Marketers and execs want the fastest but it's the best way to burnout your workforce.
I applaud anyone who wants to help developers improve their work/life balance. However, I'm surprised people in the games industry aren't focusing their attention on the hardware manufacturing side of things. The people making your PS4, Xbox One and Switch consoles have it far worse than some dude who works for Naughty Dog.
I realize you can advocate for both, believe me, I get it. And attention does need to be paid to these issues, but it almost seems like a blindspot for some when few journalists and other seem to overlook those who work on the hardware. Ideally more attention should be paid to those in the industry who have it worst while still having some attention on those in major AAA studios because they obviously have challenges as well.
I realize you can advocate for both, believe me, I get it. And attention does need to be paid to these issues, but it almost seems like a blindspot for some when few journalists and other seem to overlook those who work on the hardware. Ideally more attention should be paid to those in the industry who have it worst while still having some attention on those in major AAA studios because they obviously have challenges as well.
Some of the best games this decade hasn't been cutting edge, the whole Nintendo business is based on not being cutting edge and is one of the most successful publishers. Minecraft, Roblox, LoL and many more has been incredible successful despite not being cutting edge.
The whole mobile gaming industry is based on not being cutting edge.
The AAA race has already killed many studios and publishers in the last gen, because is solely based in that only a few ones can follow it by burning devs out. Gaming will be fine, without the few publishers that can push AAA games on a constant autodestructive race for graphics.
Actually gaming has thrived way more unded indies and small devs than through AAA publishers and the more developing tools becomes more easy and simple to use and the need for graphics slows down the better, because more people will be able to create games which will push forward the medium way more than AAA games.
I don't know, man. Highly subjective. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of games of the decade list that people can agree on will be the likes of Witcher 3, Last of Us, Uncharted, GTA, RDR2, and so on.
Putting up indies as poster child of not crunching is questionable as well because they're often the most notorious for crunch.
Figuring out how to avoid crunch would mean the following: Your team can consistently create games that are very fun to play without a lot of guesswork and iteration. That's an insanely hard place to get to. Nintendo seems to have it figured out, I give you that. But it's not like any studios can just hire "better managers" and it's an easily solvable problem. If it was, whoever figures it out is sitting on a mountain of gold.
Insomniac always seemed like a cool place to be. It won awards for work places or something too.
AAA would most definitely still be possible with union protection. Workers are more efficient with shorter hours and overtime wouldn't have to be paid- for countries like Poland that require paid overtime anyway, salaried workers in the US are probably SOL. I don't really get Jaffe's point about competition, either, because if you're both AAA and put out a quality product, you will sell. The only true obstacle (and this is Jaffe's core point) is that companies won't let this happen because it's not the absolute most they can get away with while still remaining within the law, and therefore may not be as efficient (although studies on overwork may not support this conclusion!) There are plenty of solutions that would let both AAA games and workers that aren't killing themselves exist simultaneously, just our current corporate hellscape isn't interested in anything but the former.
Figuring out how to completely avoid crunch, while still putting out successful and fun games would be an insanely valuable competitive advantage for any studio. They would drown in resumes from great, experienced game devs. Publishers and businesses not wanting it is only half the problem. The much bigger issue is that it's just very hard to do, even in a vacuum.
Not necessarily. My parents both worked at GM and were part of the UAW. The contract the union had with GM allowed them to have people on the line work 50 hour weeks (getting overtime of course) and also GM can force them to work X amount of Saturdays a year. Being in a union doesn't guarantee a 40 hour work week, it just sets limits on what those weeks can be like.
I don't necessarily disagree, but one of the prevailing sentiments seems to be that there's no shortage of skilled labor regardless of working conditions so companies don't actually have an incentive to do this. I'll note though that while I'm somewhat knowledgeable about studies that link lighter hours and increased overall productivity having once been a union rep, I am not knowledgeable about the hiring environment for game devs and so I don't know if that sentiment is as true as you might think or if it comes with caveats.
That's why I said either eliminate it or aliviate it, we are seeing crunchs of like 70 or more hours a week, that's insane. 50 hours works would be a massive improvement seeing some of these cases.
This is not true at all. Hiring senior devs is very hard and there are not many good ones. You also lose good talent to big tech all the time.
Entry level juniors are abundantly available, but you need senior talent or projects turn into a shitshow very quickly.
Yes, the CyberPunk 2077 Funko Pop clearly marketed at 10 year olds. What kind of stupid comment is this? You can dislike the guy (with a lot of reason, he has said some terrible stuff) but... Funko Pops? What are you even adding to the discussion?
@topic
I don't think he's wrong at all, outsourcing and the massive amount of employees working in the gaming industry make it very hard to unionize. A lot of work in AAA games is indeed busy work that can be done by "anyone". If we didn't think that the Animation/Gaming industry thought their employees were replaceable we wouldn't have one of the biggest pains in the industry being the requirement to move every 2/3 years.
I met an animator that moved 27 times until he landed on Blue Sky studios (where it seems they like to keep people, this was obviously before the great age of remote working).
I don't really have a solution except the pipe dream of the consumer having a real impact on sales when they know extreme crunch was involved. But that doesn't seem to be possible.
Maybe they are not the same people? I for once don't give a crap about cyberpunk.
Yup, people don't understand how difficult it's to build software. Like, where is CD Project going to outsource? they are bottom of the barrel already.
Then they're an extremely minor group and not reflecting of the reality where tons of people wouldn't be happy if AAA games just stop.
We have at least 1 AAA dev in this thread alone saying Jaffe's (who hasn't worked on a AAA game in quite some time) argument is bullshit and people still wanna carry water for the dude lol
Just look at Era's goty and most anticipated games each year. 9 out of 10 games should be AAA.
Getting rid of AAA is not the answer.
Era is representative of the gaming market?
I meant I like AAA games but I'd have no issue with them disappearing if crunching for months is the only way.
The indie game he uses as an example of devs not understanding AAA crunch and not knowing their place is made by a studio founded by former Rockstar developers, and they still do work on major titles like Hitman and Control. Nice going Jaffe.
He also kind of lost me regarding the high and mighty AAAs when he basically admitted indies are pushing game design and innovation harder in the medium. "But they're pushing PRODUCTION VALUE!!" got a laugh out of me.
He also kind of lost me regarding the high and mighty AAAs when he basically admitted indies are pushing game design and innovation harder in the medium. "But they're pushing PRODUCTION VALUE!!" got a laugh out of me.
Last edited:
Breath of the Wild is an an example of a great AAA game that didn't have crunch. It was originally slated to come out over 3 years after the previous mainline Zelda and was delayed multiple times to refocus scope and deliver a great game.
There have been studios, including Nintendo, that have success without crunch and show that it's not an either/or situation.
If you want to look at the bigger market, AAA games are even more prevalent out there.
Just do a quick "GOTY 2019" google, can you find non AAA games in the result?
I said he's 10 years older than me, not that Funkos are aimed at 10 year olds. I just think of them as cheap junk for young-er people, but not necessarily children. It's weird to see someone in their 40's with a whole bunch of them. Seems like the kind of thing you might put on your desk at work, but not have a bunch of them decorating your house.
As I've added to the discussion elsewhere in the thread though, I think he may be right -- or at least have some points that need to be addressed by someone with knowledge and experience. It seems like game developers wouldn't really have the same collective bargaining powers in a globalized work environment, and that there's simply a class of employee that is willing to work long hours for the prestige that comes with AAA projects. Pretty much anyone that takes a salary does so with the understanding that their workload will probably increase when deadlines loom or there is a busy season. I think most people are willing to accept 6 months of crunch every few years, so long as they have a 2-3 years where they aren't crunching.
AAA gaming is not some special case, you can find similar or more complexity in other fields like microprocessor design, automobiles, medical equipment, construction and so on. The only reason crunch is this widespread in games is because the people in charge can get away with it. It's not some boogeyman shit that just happens randomly, It's planned for and baked into to the budget from the very beginning.
I worked on UFC Trainer for well over a year, implemented leaderboards and more online features on all 3 consoles, and left a couple months before it was released because my contract was up and THQ was too cheap to renew it. Other engineers had to fight with the producers to get them to leave my name in. It was put into Special Thanks.
Special. Thanks.
Whatever, at least my name was on it.