Ah ok, that's interesting. But really glossed over if that's the case.
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WandaVision | Paul Bettany is in this | Fridays on Disney+
- Thread starter Deleted member 1248
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- OT
Ah ok, that's interesting. But really glossed over if that's the case.
I think it's 100% up in the air that Wanda is a good person. They left that up in the air (and muddled the message in trying to make her not outright bad).
I'm not "kill the bitch" I'm "either the MCU is turning Wanda into a bad guy, or they are yet again letting their protagonist characters skate on having done some pretty bad shit, just like Tony." Wanda's more understandable than Tony, who is a narcissistic trust fund child. But the show makes sure we know just how bad her actions were. That's a creative choice, they could have just as easily written her effect to be amnesiac and not torture.
I don't actually see anyone really calling to "punish/kill the bitch", and I feel like the people acting like they are are showing more about themselves then they think. Like the only possible system of justice, or even the only possible way to show remorse, is to be thrown in prison or punished. I don't want Wanda to get shot. I want literally anyone in this goddamn franchise to realize that feeling bad about what you did is not a sufficient reaction to hurting other people.
The fact that everyone keeps citing Agatha/Hayward is just a sign of how much the writers used them as a sleight of hand, again. By contrasting Wanda with "really" bad people who are actual villains it deflects from examining what she actually did
Edit: Cognizant, no offense but I don't think you have the slightest idea how denial works. How do you imagine gay men who almost exclusively had sex with men, achieve to be in denial and claims to be heterosexual? It is different than mental health issues and mostly product of lifetime of gaslighting by heteronormative society but denial is denial and it works like that. For some it might even take a lifetime. So no, she can be in denial and not really aware even if she was very close to the truth.
All of this. Going off and isolating and getting better at magic is not responsible. Whether or not the creators mean it to be a bad choice is up in the air, the MCU is full of a lot of bad behavior.
I'm with you. I've seen a lot of people make big assumptions regarding the five-year plan for the MCU. Many of the assumptions seem likely, but I wouldn't consider them foregone conclusions, especially with the uncertainty around new tentpole properties being integrated into the MCU (e.g., F4, mutants).
There's no strong evidence that anyone in the show is revealed as the person in witness security. It seems like it was just a plot device to get Agent Woo to Westview since he'd otherwise have no reason to be there.
Wanda made everyone that personally knew about Westview forget it exists, just like she made everyone that personally knew anyone from Westview forget they existed as well. The Hex wasn't just limited to affecting everyone inside its borders. There was a sign for Westview literally two feet from the police officers who swore they couldn't see the town nor had ever heard of Westview and Woo's first course of action when his witness went dark was to contact their relatives, who didn't know who he was talking about.
I assume, on some subconscious level, Wanda didn't want anyone from outside the town coming there to find the people she wouldn't let leave Westview.
Wanda literally can't do anything until she understands how to use her magic. Until then shit will just happen at random if she feels sad or threatened or whatever. As Agatha said, the Scarlet Witch needs no incantations. Her magic just comes out and does shit because she can't control it. we literally just saw that in this episode when she unintentionally choked those people.
We've seen what happens when Wanda is imprisoned by the government. She turns herself in and they'd eventually escalate things and cause enough harm to her that she ends up just lashing out, and then a lot of people are dead.
Her only move was to separate herself so she could stop causing harm to people.
I imagine SWORD will set something up, or that the "nosy neighbor" will simply be the persona she's trapped in. But I imagine the next time we see Agatha, we'll get a clearer answer. Heck, they may pull an Odin and off-handedly say she was put in a facility and then gone MIA.
Also, Agatha goes limp shortly after her powers stop working and it's implied Wanda was using her own magic to keep her afloat and lower her to the ground.
I understand that people who are in this kind of crisis do sometimes isolate, it makes narrative sense that she'd make that choice. It's not responsible, mental health wise, however. The MCU might recognize this, or ignore it, as this kind of their weak spot creatively.
I sure hope they're not recasting the kids for Young Avengers. I like the kid playing Billy a lot, he was good in Hill House too. I'd definitely be okay with them being on the younger end of the team too.
It's pretty clear that Wanda is a good person. A regular good person, not Steve Rogers good person. A good person with far more power than regular people should have.
Doesn't mean she shouldn't be hold accountable, like someone who drinks and drives should be held accountable, but what you gonna do, no prison could hold her, and she's not a martyr. It's a good thing for Earth is she's around, maybe not great for the people close to her though.
The only true ideal good people in the MCU are like, Steve Rogers and the Vision. And the Vision is artificial.
Doesn't mean she shouldn't be hold accountable, like someone who drinks and drives should be held accountable, but what you gonna do, no prison could hold her, and she's not a martyr. It's a good thing for Earth is she's around, maybe not great for the people close to her though.
The only true ideal good people in the MCU are like, Steve Rogers and the Vision. And the Vision is artificial.
One person who could hold her accountable is Strange. And he's not going to like that she's studying the Darkhold. It's obvious where this is going and that there will be consequences for Wanda in some form. And she has to make good on her promise so what she did to Westview never happens again.
Makes zero sense to argue for her turning herself in to SWORD or Thunderbolt Ross or something. She has no reason to trust any government authority.
With the timescale of these projects, I was guessing they cast them young because by the time they get major screentime again they will be the right age.
This. Time and time again her trust was betrayed. She cant even trust herself why should she trust authorities. She saw what they did to Visions corpse.
Yeah a full on YA teamup is still 2-3 years away at best. I'm still surprised Cassie got recasted but it could have been for a number of reasons.
This seems the likey route to me as well, but I am done predicting.
My issue wasn't that she should have turned herself in to SWORD, but that the narrative/Monica is trying to have it both ways. (And she should have sought help, but bad choices are part of fiction.)
If a character is in denial about something so bad that the story itself doesn't make it clear to the viewer explictly or implicity, then that's a failure on the writers part. I'm arguing that the direction and writing of the show, for me, does not convey that she's in complete denial. It argues the opposite in fact, that she's regularly lucid, capable of guilt, self-awareness, and has full agency. And that this makes her a successfully interesting character. Your comment is too broad. If you want a good depiction of characters in denial watch something like Mad Men, which does it properly, there is no question to the audience if characters are in denial or not. The content of a story needs to backup your claim otherwise you could claim every protagonist of the MCU is in denial.
Maybe she shacks up with Ralph for real who falls for her...
That's a good catch.
My prediction regarding the Skrull at the end: Following Hayward's arrest, the Skrulls and Nick Fury are going to convince Monica to reform SWORD into a purely space based program, with the place Fury is in at the end of Far From Home as their new base, the Peak. So it becomes the Sentient World Observation and Response Division instead of Sentient Weapon Observation and Response Division.
It's kinda funny that Strange needs a special living cloak to fly but Agatha and Wanda can fly for free.
But they did, though. Denial means not confronting the truth right. Any time she faces slightly the truth something happens and she distracts herself. Facing off Hayward is a bit different. She and her kids targeted by missiles and Hayward was a dickwad to her. Her anger towards him more than enough to dissociate. Not to forget there were more than a dozen of guns pointed at her. Not a very clear and lucid environment.
I think the closest she came to the truth when Fietro was explaining further about the hex and approving. The important detail is she believed this stranger is her brother instead of refusing she still tries to prove that he isnt. So that isnt very luvid either. But the moment she started questioning the truth and possibility, she had to save vision and got distracted again. So only time she was lucid is when townsfolk directly confronts her.
The point is that the writers used contrived narrative to influence how the audience percieves villany, and everyone's characterizations suffered for it.
Wanda, Hayward, and Agatha are all villains. But Hayward was atleast trying to rid the world of a hostage taker thats tortures her victims... let's have him shoot at kids so the audience doesn't forget he's the real bad guy. Agatha was atleast trying to strip the power of a mythological harbinger of agony and death. Let's have her choke kids and kill a dog, so the audience doesn't forget Agatha is the real bad guy.
These people are suffering, and will do so for a lifetime. Not because Hayward wanted to reanimated a weapon. Not because Agatha's power lust lead her to kill her coven. They are suffering because of Wanda.
Wanda's the only Villain in the story who's actions in Westview resulted in a net negative for society. And rather than embrace this, the writers decided to hide from it at the last second.
It's incredibly problematic that only the antagonist highlight the damage that Wanda has caused and ultimately runs away from, while Monica and Vision give her a completely unearned benefit of the doubt at the end.
It would have been amazing to see how the people of Westview viewed the Wanda/Agatha fight after Agatha gave them reprieve. Even though the narrative went with the idea that Agatha had no intentions of saving them, they surely would have viewed her as a savior. I wonder how it makes them feel to see Agatha/Agnes subjected to the torture they just escape from - a permanent reminder of what their families had to endure. Instead we're left with Monica suggesting Wanda is the unsung hero for her sacrifice.
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Haven't we also only seen Strange project into the Astral Dimension while unconscious? Wanda can make tea and do it.
For me it looks like Strange is the Sorcerer Supreme the same way Tony Stark is Iron Man, it's something that he can do because he works at it, and studies and reads. For Wanda and Agatha and probably other "naturals", it's something they're born with.
I love that Agatha told Wanda that the Scarlet Witch's power exceeds that of the Sorcerer Supreme and then in the final post-credits scene Wanda is proving it via waking astral projection. She's gonna be a great villain for Steven.
Monica's send-off kinda stuck that landing, to me.
Edit: And the kids, obv
I think the distinction they were going for was that Wanda wasn't hurting people on purpose, but rather as an unintended reaction. She is still a villain for sure, but her motivations make her a more sympathetic one than either Hayward or Agatha. Those two want power and only pay lip service to the greater good. Wanda wants the greater good but is cursed with power.
Monica's send-off kinda stuck that landing, to me.
Edit: And the kids, obv
Was a decent watch, but the sitcom stuff, especially the first 3 episodes really annoyed me.
And so did the Vision she created. But they all lacked physical forms, they were essentially manifestations of her magic.
And my only point there is that the kids Wanda quite literally dreamed up can't be used as an after-the-fact excuse for all the terrible shit she did.
I'll never not find the image of her leaving the sword facility and getting in a Buick hilarious.
Neither Hayward or Agath deserve sympathy. What but in writing unforgivable actions into the 2 secondary villains final moments, and validating Wanda's actions through Monica and Vision, the writers undermined the characterizations of multiple characters in one fell swoop. Monica's conversation with Wanda devastated the story of me.
I just edited the post you replied to to include that the victims perspective was completely glossed over. If you were a member of Westview in the town square, you'd probably view Agatha and SWORD as heroes (minus the absurd shooting at kids scene). But we don't get to see that. Instead we get Monica and Vision, the real heros of Westview, giving Wanda unearned validation before Wanda flies off to do the opposite of learn from her mistakes.
I think it's like the marvel version of the Necronomicon
It's explicitly forbidden knowledge for a reason. It is the source of lots of bad magical things in the Marvel universe. Literally nothing good has come of it iirc.
I think this is still Mephisto's play and his shot was to get the Scarlet Witch and the Darkhold together.
Dottie: You took everything from me...
Wanda: I don't even know who you are.
This is completely fair. While I kinda get it from Vision, who Wanda literally created, it's odd from Monica. Her grief alone isn't enough to sell me on the hand-waving.
Hoping her future stories address that.
And I am not denying they are both bad guys. There is nothing wrong having stories follow the action of bad guys. Show like Sopranos and Breaking Bad have there place in story telling. Wanda Vision falls into that camp.
If you don't like show that explore darker side of humanity, that is fine./ But there is nothing wrong with the basic premise they set out to tell.
At the end of the day, I just want to have more than one fucking story in the MCU centered around a woman with superpowers who is a hero. I'd be more okay with Wanda being played more as a villain or terrible person if there were actually more female leads. (Although I guess if I count WandaVision as being female-led, maybe Antman and the Wasp counts too?)
I hope Monica gets to start in her own show or movie and isn't regulated to supporting cast forever.
I hope Monica gets to start in her own show or movie and isn't regulated to supporting cast forever.
Not sure how you got to that at all, Sopranos, Breaking Bad, and Mad Men are among my favorite shows.
My issue is with the narrative trying to have it both ways, seemingly, and being very unclear in the process.
Coming up we got:
She-Hulk
IronHeart
Ms. Marvel
and with women co-leads:
Eternals
Thor: Love and Thunder
Hawkeye
But we definitely need more of these kinda stories, hopefully they keep coming. And Monica does need her own series/movie or she at least needs to lead a team-up. Hopefully she has a big role in Secret Invasion.
This is poor framing of what happened here. Whether or not someone accepts Wanda has a disorder it becomes irrelevant when she is directly confronted multiple times even with one person not judging her when Fietro talks to her about and she actively denies her control over the town. You can't attempt to end a conversation with Vision by rolling the credits or try to gain control over your kids like "everyone" else and then pass the buck on you don't exactly how you do the things you do.
She's willfully being obtuse. She doesn't need to know exactly how she was doing it but she sure as knew she was the underlying reason why everything that was going was occurring. Even in this last episode she struggled real hard to let go of her copium.
Well said.
I think just calling them "manifestations of her magic" is selling them short. They were alive. Technically our own children are just manifestations of the cells contained in our bodies. They still matter as much as we do.
Regardless of how they came about or what happened ahead of time, the children aren't "fake." They're sentient beings. The post-credits scene seems to indicate that they haven't vanished from existence either. Somehow they have souls. I'm sure that will be explored in MoM.
I'm also pretty sure Wanda will at least be somewhat of an antagonist in MoM. I think it's ridiculously silly to say that Wanda "got away" with what she did. The show itself makes it pretty blatant that what she did was wrong. "You're cruel." "Maybe I already am [the villain]." '"You don't know what you've unleashed." etc. Wanda does not get a hero's reception at the end of the show. She's (still) a fugitive on the run, and her actions seem to have set into motion something far more destructive and evil than what occurred in Westview.
Frankly I think at least a bit of this reaction is rooted in the way we have been conditioned to not see women characters as anything other than one-dimensional. Wanda is a complex character with motivations and behaviors that are often at odds with each other. She's been portrayed as troubled and unstable for her entire run in the MCU.
Hell, Monica admitted she would've done the same thing if it meant bringing her mom back. I think most of humanity would do the same thing in Wanda's position.
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I mean, a lot of this is true and I agree with it. But then you're not talking to me, because I've been pretty clear since the Halloween episode that I think WandaVision is setting up an antagonist storyline and that thematically it works better that way. Wanda is not "good," she's complex, and her complexities have led her to doing some pretty awful things that I hope the MCU eventually accounts for. I just don't have faith in that story being told, but I'd love to be wrong.
I think a lot of this read comes from how Monica reacted to her. Monica for most of the show was set up as the heroic audience surrogate. That she handwaved Wanda's actions without much of a thought for the people she harmed was jarring, to say the least. And it actually made me less excited for a Monica story, moving forward. If she's going to be this feckless.
I think the difference is the methods. Agatha is implied to using the Darkhold to get her power simply because she is accused of practicing the darkest of magics while also stealing knowledge above her age and station, in otherwords she might have literally stolen the most dark magic book to study.
From what Strange says when he accuses The Ancient One of drawing power from the Dark Dimension, he says he saw the missing pages in the Book of Cagliostro were on immortality but the same pages were also used by Kaecilius to summon Dormammu so even though Dormammu and the Dark Dimension are used interchangeably due to how the movie presents most of the magic Strange learns to be drawn from other dimensions, I do think that Kaecilius and the zealots show how they are more directly tapping into Dormammu's power and immortality, and therefore how it corrupts them, while The Ancient One probably just sips on it to live longer and other power and that is when she gets the mark.
In the comics, Strange draws powers from power entities and the movie doesn't quite go that far, but we see in Infinity War how Strange uses magic from other entities like the Winds of Watoomb and the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak so I think it's only a matter of time until they introduce the concept since they introduce relics embed with magic from entities like the Staff of the Living Tribunal.
And interesting note is that in the comics, the Book of Cagliostro is a personal history of Cagliostro and a collection of mystic knowledge gained from numerous sources, including passages from the Darkhold. It would make sense if Kaecilius stole those pages if it was the only knowledge in the library about dark magic from the Dark Dimension and Dormammu since they didn't have the Darkhold.
Hayward denied Wanda, a person who just help defeated Thanos, a proper burial for her partner. Then he false accused her of attacking SWORD. Treating a war heroes like shit. How noble of him!
His callousness and selfish pet project pushed Wanda over the edge. Is he not accountable for his unintentional action that lead to the formation of the Hex? Remember, Hayward was not at the Hex to protect the town. His first and foremost goal was to trigger Wanda power so he could active White Vision- NOT save the towns people. His goal to wipe out Wanda was to cover up his actions- not save the towns people.
Also, remember Hayward is the reason Wanda attacks Monica- Hayward is the director of SWORD, who Monica works for. Hayward action made all of SWORD bad in Wanda's eyes.
To what ends? Self preservation yes. But was she really doing it for towns people? Or like her flashback showed she just another person who kills to obtain power. Agatha had the power inside the Hex to free the captured people from Wanda's control at any time. Why didn't she release the people earlier? Why didn't Agatha work with Monica? Simple, her goal was not to help people, it was to study Wanda until she figured out Wanda's magic so she could drain Wanda.
Wanda fuck up big time, there is no denying it. What is ridiculous is people white washing Hayward and Agatha motive to make Wanda look more evil. Honestly, it isn't a competition. They all did bad things.
The big issue with keeping the current actors for the twins is that they're way too young. Like, quick Google search is telling me Julian Hilliard and Jett Klyne, who play Billy and Tommy respectively, are 9 and 11 respectively. Contrast that with Cassie Lang now played by current-24-year-old Kathryn Newton.
Rolling with the YA anytime soon means making them the babies of the team unless you did some additional recastings. It's one thing to have a gap like that with a team of adults, it's another with a team exclusively of teenagers.
Those show follow negative character arcs. WandaVision follows Wanda's negative character arc. Wanda obtains closure and stability over losing Vision at the cost of becoming a villain to the world.
I think allot of people are hung up on Wanda is suppose to be a hero and can't accept that WandaVision is taking her character somewhere else. They keep projection what Wanda should have done despite Wanda's sorted history of choices.
Kinda disappointed in her origin to be honest. She walked through a barrier twice. Got vague powers. Shows no emotion whatsoever to the bizarre changes occurring to her body. I mean, the utter lack of shock on her face made me think she even had powers before she showed up to Westview.
It was a bit of an oddly structured season. The runtime kept changing, got longer with each episode, but not enough time was devoted to the subplots. SWORD stuff was very perfunctory in contrast to the experimentation of the hex. It's very rare for me to say "I wish a TV season was longer" but this show could have benefited from a few more episodes worth of runtime. Just to add some meat to the SWORD stuff, Monica dealing with powers, having Wanda-infused nightmares, scenes of White Vision being born and exploring his new surroundings, etc.