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MetalMagus

Avenger
Oct 16, 2018
1,645
Maine
It's really hard to gauge this kind of thing, because the characters generally seem to be as powerful as they need to be for the plot to work. Vision seemed extremely powerful in Age of Ultron and Civil War, only to get taken down like a chump in Infinity War by the same Goblin creature who was later kicked around by Black Widow and Falcon. Now he's back to seeming pretty powerful again in WandaVision. It's all over the place.

The scriptwriters made it a point that Corvus Glaive surpises and backstabs Vision to effectively put him out of commission for the movie precisely because he was too powerful. If that hadn't happened Vision washes both of them easily.

Doctor Strange on the other hand has neutralized Loki with zero effort, and as mentioned above he at the very least wasn't decimated by Thanos in a 1v1...but he was also knocked out pretty damn easily by Ebony Maw, one of Thanos' henchmen in Infinity War.

I imagine the "glass cannon" general rule for mages applies to Strange. Give him time and some space and he can wipe cities off the face of the earth. Get in his face and beat him around and he's about as tough as your average 50 year old surgeon.
 

Rellyrell28

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,887
While we'll see what her arc is in MoM but I do think we should get a Scarlett Witch movie somewhere along the line. If anything to have Agatha back.
 
Oct 25, 2017
32,274
Atlanta GA
The scriptwriters made it a point that Corvus Glaive surpises and backstabs Vision to effectively put him out of commission for the movie precisely because he was too powerful. If that hadn't happened Vision washes both of them easily.

Yeah look at Ebony Maw on the other hand. Dispatches Doctor Strange with ease and then gets taken out by Iron Man and Spider-Man in one shot.

While we'll see what her arc is in MoM but I do think we should get a Scarlett Witch movie somewhere along the line. If anything to have Agatha back.

I'm actually gonna be pretty bummed if there isn't a Scarlet Witch and The Vision series after their follow up appearances in Strange and (hopefully) Armor Wars for Vision.
 

Thronazuug

Member
Mar 30, 2019
244
lol you're still trying so hard.

Did you forget Wanda started out in the MCU as a villainous member of a Nazi terrorist organization? Or that the Sokovia Accords were fast-tracked largely because she killed a bunch of innocent civilians in Africa? Or that she spent time heavily drugged in a straight jacket at a maximum security super-prison? Her and Vision were wanted fugitives in Infinity War. She's still a wanted fugitive now.

Even still, she clearly felt ashamed and disgusted after realizing the full extent of what she put the citizens of Westview through. She immediately opened the Hex to let them escape, only closing it back up when she saw her children and husband disintegrating in front of her eyes. She saved the militia who came to murder her from Agatha's drop. In the end, she still sacrificed her family to close the Hex because she knew that the Hex was wrong.

Monica knows what she did. She knows what she gave up to let those people be free. Wanda didn't intend to create the Hex and imprison everyone. Her entire life she's known nothing but loss. Even after developing superpowers, her life continues to consist of tragedy after tragedy. Now that she finally has access some answers regarding her powers (which have caused her nothing but trouble), she took the source of those answers and went into seclusion to study where she can't hurt anyone.

Complaining that she isn't facing consequences is ludicrous. She's lost everyone close to her. She has no family left. She doesn't even have the Avengers. She has suffered. It's understandable that she is not going to volunteer to go back to being a chemically-induced vegetable at the Raft. Or worse, part of an experiment to create a brainwashed sentient weapon like they tried to make out of her husband. Why would she trust the government at this point? Thus far they have not been the "good guys."
Perfectly said! If there is still weird "lock her up" obsession after this post, it's a loss cause to try explaining further. Not sure what kind of outcome would satisfy this obsession? It's ironic especially after seeing handwaving of two real villain's actions then obsessively want the character who is having a psychosis, caused by seeing her love of life killed twice (first time by her own hands) and being denied a funeral then being showed a cruel autopsy while a jerk claims the body of her lover is his property, all happening in the freaking same week! This after a life time of loss of family, country and freedom!
People forgave Tony, Bucky or Loki for worst crimes but Wanda who had to deal loss after loss, tragedy after tragedy, who killed her own family to undone the wrongdoing of hers, needs to be locked down by "authorities" who clearly doesnt give two shits about rehabilitation or help. Considering the same authorities tried to kill her and her kids like three times just in 3 days!

Besides it is especially weird to see people reacting this strongly for fictional town people getting hostage for 3 days by an unintentional magic of a fictional character where in real life slave labour of uyghur people for the next gen consoles doesnt get this much heat. (It never hurts to mention and remind a real tragedy. Please go and sign the petition on the gaming forum to make some noise).

Moving on to the show. I'm pleased with the finale. I was wrong on many theories, I really wanted Mojo for mostly Spiral origin with Dottie. However maybe it is not too late. Who knows? There are still very suspicious details like who informed about Vision's corpse's whereabouts or like why would Vision buy a land next to a house with a powerful magicpoint basement or who gave the deed to Wanda? I think there is more to this and we will see more. Probably not gonna lead to Spiral but hopefully she gets her own series on phase 5.
I'm hopeful about the quality it wouşd have after WandaVision.
 

Heroicpiglet

Avenger
Dec 22, 2017
2,064
Yeah look at Ebony Maw on the other hand. Dispatches Doctor Strange with ease and then gets taken out by Iron Man and Spider-Man in one shot.
he doesn't have a chance to fight the uncle and nephew combo
and personally for me, the reason Strange can go toe to toe with Thanos because he sees exactly how the fight would go like a million time lol
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
I'm seeing friends on facebook wanting more of this series, but like that's not going to happen. This was like an origin story, and now that she's aware she isn't going to repeat that control over a whole town.

I would think they are mostly suggesting they want a family show that sees the Maximoff Vision family trying to settle into their lives among less extraordinary people.
 

Rellyrell28

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,887
I didn't even process during the witch fight when Wanda did that taunting teleport that was literally a signal to us that she was learning from Agatha which sets up the rune spell cause Agatha did that same teleport when she finally got the answers she was looking for out of Wanda. I though how she did that looked dope but wasn't think about the fact that she was taunting before it as a warning that she was learning from her.
 

Rampage

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,134
Metro Detriot
See I just don't come away from the finale thinking that the show wants us to view Wanda as anything other than "a troubled woman with some things to work out"
Did you not feel for any of the towns people who were begging to die rather than continue under Wanda's control? Did you not see their pain and rage?

And yes the goal of the series was to show that Wanda is a troubled women with some thing to work out. Her whole life has been nothing but war, tragedy, and trauma. Nobody get over that in such a short time. For Wanda it has been less than a month since she killed Vision, Thanos killed Vision, that she fought with the Avenger to taking down Thanos, adjusting to the Blip world while finding out the copse of partner who fought to save humanity was being desecrated.

What did you expect the show to be about?
 

deimosmasque

Ugly, Queer, Gender-Fluid, Drive-In Mutant, yes?
Moderator
Apr 22, 2018
14,164
Tampa, Fl
Won't know for sure till Dr Strange MoM, buttttt in the Marvel comics the Necromicon is a flawed copy of the Darkhold
So what your saying is we should expect this:
latest

In the Moon Knight show.

(Yes Cthuluhu is canon in the Marvel 616 Universe)
 

loco

Member
Jan 6, 2021
5,502
That was a dope finale. I missed the part with what happened to white vision. Did he just fly away to somewhere else after getting the stone back?
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,161
Greater Vancouver
I mean... he ain't wrong.



Speaking of, he also hosts the Cerebro podcast where every episode, he and a guest deepdives into the history of a particular X-Men/mutant. It's good shit.
 

loco

Member
Jan 6, 2021
5,502
He left, yeah. I imagine that was a lot to take in all at once.

He didn't get the mind stone back just the memories. But presumably not an emotional attachment to them, as yet.
Thanks for explaining that. I love it! So he's basically a blank canvas Vision with old Vision's memories as a foundation for his identity. I can't wait until they revisit him in a future movie or series!
 

Mandos

Member
Nov 27, 2017
30,879
Thanks for explaining that. I love it! So he's basically a blank canvas Vision with old Vision's memories as a foundation for his identity. I can't wait until they revisit him in a future movie or series!
It's basically West Coast Avengers Vision arc(cept Wanda got to say goodbye to old vision this time).
Personally think he'll reappear in Armor wars, Rhodey is probably the only authority figure left he'd personally trust(although under the sokovia accords he may decide to report to Ross)
 

AWizardDidIt

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,461
I wasn't overly impressed with the Wanda vs Agatha fight but man that Vision vs Vision fight was fantastic. I loved the two Visions actually using their phasing powers to good effect. Made for a spectacular fight.
 

GreenMamba

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
1000

Agatha's fingers look like she's suffering from frostbite or something. I wonder if it's due to her powers.

----

It's also funny that though Agatha does have a very different and antagonistic role in the MCU in comparison to the comics... she did still technically teach Wanda a little bit about magic via the runes.
 
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Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,615
Man Agatha's plan was stupid

She could have actually gotten Wanda to give her her magic in exchange for making sure her hex world stayed in tact, if she hadn't gone over the top evil and strangled her kids
 

Borgus

Member
Apr 14, 2020
734
Toronto
I was pretty bummed out that Agatha ended up being a somewhat mediocre villain. This is pretty common for MCU so I'm not too surprised but Kathryn Hahn was so great up until the last two episodes. Just evil for the sake of being evil, really.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,615
Agatha says later that the hex could never be stabilized
She tells her the world she made will forever be broken, but that's after she thinks she's won and she's got Wanda's power. Just a few minutes before she was still telling her:

"Give me your power and I will correct the flaws in your original spell. And you and your family, and the people of Westview can all live together in peace. And no one will ever have to feel this pain again. Not even you."

If she hadn't gone, again, over the top evil, she could have probably actually convinced Wanda to give her her power and without Wanda sabotaging it with the runes.
 

demosthenes

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,588
1000

Agatha's fingers look like she's suffering from frostbite or something. I wonder if it's due to her powers.

----

It's also funny that though Agatha does have a very different and antagonistic role in the MCU in comparison to the comics... she did still technically teach Wanda a little bit about magic via the runes.

Thanks for pointing this out. I thought it only happened near the end.
 

davepoobond

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,537
www.squackle.com
She tells her the world she made will forever be broken, but that's after she thinks she's won and she's got Wanda's power. Just a few minutes before she was still telling her:

"Give me your power and I will correct the flaws in your original spell. And you and your family, and the people of Westview can all live together in peace. And no one will ever have to feel this pain again. Not even you."

If she hadn't gone, again, over the top evil, she could have probably actually convinced Wanda to give her her power and without Wanda sabotaging it with the runes.

later she says there was no fixing it cause the original spell can't be corrected or something.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,969
Oh I completely agree. I think what she does to Agatha is really fucked up. Does the show? Or does the show think a villain got her just desserts? The tone of the last ten minutes of that episode sure feels like the latter

The show keeps saying things in its text that point towards how fucked up everything is and then framing it completely inconsistently in a way that communicates sympathy for Wanda for "what she had to go through" and not a lot of sympathy for anyone else
 

Sandstar

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,739
I think the show thinks she's still a hero, when she's not. Not in any way, shape, or form. We're supposed to sympathize with her, and be outraged by Agatha's actions, but she's right "A hero doesn't hold people hostage."
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,969
Maybe I'd have more patience for "it'll be addressed in the next movie" if they didn't keep trying to pull that card only to suddenly have things be "atoned" for off screen. They've pulled this shit so many times and its a naked sleight of hand to avoid having to do any serious work in the stories themselves. From Loki just hanging out in an Asgardian cell until he can get released to join Thor again to the complete wet fart that was the personal "rift" between Tony and Steve, this franchise doesn't get any benefit of the doubt for "this complex and negative character thing will be addressed soon"

The Agatha thing is another sleight of hand in a similar way: by introducing someone so nakedly villainous you make it easy to point and say "See Wanta isn't that bad! She had to fight Agatha, who is actually evil!"
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316
Maybe I'd have more patience for "it'll be addressed in the next movie" if they didn't keep trying to pull that card only to suddenly have things be "atoned" for off screen. They've pulled this shit so many times and its a naked sleight of hand to avoid having to do any serious work in the stories themselves. From Loki just hanging out in an Asgardian cell until he can get released to join Thor again to the complete wet fart that was the personal "rift" between Tony and Steve, this franchise doesn't get any benefit of the doubt for "this complex and negative character thing will be addressed soon"

The Agatha thing is another sleight of hand in a similar way: by introducing someone so nakedly villainous you make it easy to point and say "See Wanta isn't that bad! She had to fight Agatha, who is actually evil!"
The rift between Tony and Steve that directly lead to Thanos' snap?
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,928
I think the show thinks she's still a hero, when she's not. Not in any way, shape, or form. We're supposed to sympathize with her, and be outraged by Agatha's actions, but she's right "A hero doesn't hold people hostage."

After a few days to think about it and a rewatch, I still feel the same about the finale and show as whole as I did when the finale aired:

WandaVision makes a lot more sense if it's a setup for a villain/antagonist story.

Because there's just no washing away the horrible things Wanda's done, and continues to do. They've hit this "Wanda does bad things but she really didn't mean it oh super tragic" story beat multiple times now. And it's like...shit or get off the pot, there's really no justification for it. I'm sorry, but her grief doesn't cut it when she's literally torturing a town full of people. Vision is technically still alive, and the kids ARE fake. You don't get to use the kids as some ex post facto excuse for torturing a town full of people.

WandaVision made me understand Wanda; it did not make me sympathize with her. And that's a pretty damn good setup for a villain (or a misguided antagonist, which Wanda has already been). I just really don't see the MCU going through with it; it really felt like, through Monica, the show just wants to gloss over that Wanda essentially created a human rights atrocity that only ended because an evil witch rolled through town and trolled her.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,969
The rift between Tony and Steve that directly lead to Thanos' snap?
That's just moving chess pieces around, its like the barest sketch of character drama by way of "If they'd still been friends they would have coordinated their fighting better". The causality of their rift "causing" the snap has always been iffy, and Tony's tirade in Endgame makes more sense as an irrational outwelling of emotion than a logical description of what happened. Which also doesn't make much sense. The whole thing always felt muddled to me