WA Post / Los Angeles : "A trans woman undressed in a spa. Customers said they were ‘traumatized,’ and a protest ensued."

[kyorii]

I don't know why it seems like you're repeatedly trying to justify this group's transphobic response when it's been stated in the thread that this was not a good faith cis person being offended at seeing a trans person nude in a changing room for a nude spa (where it is completely appropriate to be nude) which would be dumb and transphobic enough, but is in fact a targeted action from a group trying to harm and discredit trans people…. I really don't think this thread is about what you seem to think it is.

And even if it *was* about the question of whether trans people should be allowed to be nude in gender-segregated spaces… yes, that would be transphobic. It is transphobic to suggest that cis people's comfort should be placed above trans people's right to exist in their bodies in public. Please drop this weird attempt to start a debate about this.

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I honestly don't have the full story here, just the article and some videos here. Im not looking to justify anything. As folks even mentioned in this thread only finding out about this locally or so. This is more the reality that these things are happening (as seen in jessie genders video) and navigating them. As some already have replied, America is ultra conservative especially on nudity. And we are losing this culture war on issues like trans gender rights and critical race theory currently.

And you're putting words into my mouth now. Never did I suggest trans individuals shouldn't be allowed nor would i ever suggest that. I quoted folks ive interacted with and that's about it.

What the fuck is this thread. The "protest" was Qanon, a gun was pulled, someone was hit by a pipe, multiple stabbings, and OP wants to focus on and is framing the thread as maybe this could be a real issue?

Get the fuck out of here, this is transphobic.

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My understanding is it was qanon at first but then counter protesters including antifa showed up. Jessie genders video goes into the brutal reality on what these issues have become. That riot cops had to show up to stop both sides fighting over trans rights.

 

[Lonewolf]

I don't know why it seems like you're repeatedly trying to justify this group's transphobic response when it's been stated in the thread that this was not a good faith cis person being offended at seeing a trans person nude in a changing room for a nude spa (where it is completely appropriate to be nude) which would be dumb and transphobic enough, but is in fact a targeted action from a group trying to harm and discredit trans people…. I really don't think this thread is about what you seem to think it is.

And even if it *was* about the question of whether trans people should be allowed to be nude in gender-segregated spaces… yes, that would be transphobic. It is transphobic to suggest that cis people's comfort should be placed above trans people's right to exist in their bodies in public. Please drop this weird attempt to start a debate about this.

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Yep, I agree with Woylie. Replace trans person/people with POC and see if you're still comfortable with their argument? It's the same damn thinking. It was the "norm forever" for POC not to use the "whites only" bathrooms and pools and when it changed these same types of people came out of the woodwork to pour bleach into the pools being used by black swimmers.

 

[16bits]

just trying to rile up uneducated bigots

whenever you hear "wont someone think of the children" , its always the adults that are the problem

 

[Deleted member 25606]

I honestly don't have the full story here, just the article and some videos here. Im not looking to justify anything. As folks even mentioned in this thread only finding out about this locally or so. This is more the reality that these things are happening (as seen in jessie genders video) and navigating them. As some already have replied, America is ultra conservative especially on nudity. And we are losing this culture war on issues like trans gender rights and critical race theory currently.

And you're putting words into my mouth now. Never did I suggest trans individuals shouldn't be allowed nor would i ever suggest that. I quoted folks ive interacted with and that's about it.

My understanding is it was qanon at first but then counter protesters including antifa showed up. Jessie genders video goes into the brutal reality on what these issues have become.

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Yeah counter protesters showed up because people are sick of this shit. That's what Antifa resistance exists for. Or are you playing the Antifa is bad card?

And it's still not addressing the fact you think this incident is a good way to frame a "debate" on are there spaces a trans person shouldn't be allowed.

Funny I am 43 years old and laser focused on trans issues and the first time I ever hear about this being an issue at a spa it's a protest by far right extremists.

Your being transphobic, full stop.

 

[kyorii]

Yeah counter protesters showed up because people are sick of this shit. That's what Antifa resistance exists for. Or are you playing the Antifa is bad card?

And it's still not addressing the fact you think this incident is a good way to frame a "debate" on are there spaces a trans person shouldn't be allowed.

Funny I am 43 years old and laser focused on trans issues and the first time I ever hear about this being an issue at a spa it's a protest by far right extremists.

Your being transphobic, full stop.

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I mean did you watch Jessie genders video though? Its pretty heartbreaking. She even showcases a clip from a couple years back of a politician running for office harassing someone in the bathroom. Im not saying antifa is bad at all. Im pro antifa in fact, but the sad hyper polarized reality is that all these issues end up in something violent. As jeesie said. Its super sad this happening on something like transgender rights. Someone just trying to exist and live

Where are you seeing that i am saying there should be spaces a trans person shouldn't be allowed?

 

[Kyuuji]

OK im gonna toss a bigger lens on this. I know it's simple for ERA and most of us to say yeah, no big deal, rah rah trans rights. But IRL is not so black and white/simple.

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You know we're humans right, not some niche forum debate topic?

 

[kyorii]

You know we're humans right, not some niche forum debate topic?

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Absolutely i never said you werent. What i am looking at besides what happened here is how to navigate this with irl individuals i know, but overall too. Who are normally very progressive. That's what has caught me off guard. Some replies here have followed up on the fact and it's not so simple. We have a long fight ahead of us.

 

[Clefargle]

Sure the children were traumatized...

Children don't care about things like this, they might ask you what a penis is or why a woman has one. A parent's job is to explain it, should be 1-2 sentences, then the child will move on to the next barrage of questions about whatever.

The people making this about the children are just too cowardly to say it's about their own need to be outraged

Go to any nude beach, there's usually lots of children running around. They're fine

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Wait, were there children at this spa?

 

[TrueSloth]

Wait, were there children at this spa?

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Why is children being at a spa like this an issue?

 

[Lonewolf]

Wait, were there children at this spa?

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From the article:

The spa's Facebook page warns that "modesty must be checked at the door, as no clothing is worn in these gender-separated areas." Two customers said they — and two girls who were present — were "traumatized" after seeing the transgender woman's genitals.

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Sounds like two women brought their daughters.

 

[Kyuuji]

Absolutely i never said you werent. What i am looking at besides what happened here is how to navigate this with irl individuals i know. Who are normally very progressive. That's what has caught me off guard.

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Then don't come in with the notion that you're going to 'toss a bigger lens' on it. The bigger lens is that "rah rah trans rights" you so handily dismiss. That is the bigger picture. Decades of being treated as deviants, freaks and predators are what drives this reaction, are what moves people to be violent when they come across our bodies. It's right there in the article:

Those against gender-inclusive public facilities have long cited safety and privacy concerns, saying these accommodations could open the door for predators to enter spaces such as restrooms and changing rooms.

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"It's not discrimination, it's an impostor," one customer said. "You cannot identify an impostor? Someone faking to be a woman just because they feel like they want to call themselves a woman?" Another woman in the video vowed to protect little girls "in Jesus's name."

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The no-nonsense push for trans rights against transphobia and the far right is what turns the wheel of change on this. Not pumping the brake the moment someone sees a trans woman in a woman's space.

 

[kyorii]

From the article:


Sounds like two women brought their daughters.

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No idea if this is true or not at this point. Seems to be fake outrage based off further evidence. Although a good question is are children even allowed at this spa.

 

[Lonewolf]

Why is children being at a spa like this an issue?

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I don't think it's an issue, just some posters surprised that people would bring their kids to such a place. It's not something commonly done in the US.

 

[TrueSloth]

I don't think it's an issue, just some posters surprised that people would bring their kids to such a place. It's not something commonly done in the US.

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We need to work on destigmatizing the naked human body. To assume it's something that we should hide from children is very damaging. Lest posters come off sounding like prudes.

 

[Lonewolf]

Then don't come in with the notion that you're going to 'toss a bigger lens' on it. The bigger lens is that "rah rah trans rights" you so handily dismiss. That is the bigger picture. Decades of being treated as deviants, freaks and predators are what drives in this reaction, are what moves people to be violent when they come across our bodies. It's right there in the article:


The no-nonsense push for trans rights against transphobia and the far right is what turns the wheel of change on this. Not pumping the brake the moment someone sees a trans woman in a woman's space.

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Not to mention that it's the same bullshit they've been doing for absolute ages against gay people, attempting to equate them to pedophiles.

 

[kyorii]

Then don't come in with the notion that you're going to 'toss a bigger lens' on it. The bigger lens is that "rah rah trans rights" you so handily dismiss. That is the bigger picture. Decades of being treated as deviants, freaks and predators are what drives this reaction, are what moves people to be violent when they come across our bodies. It's right there in the article:


The no-nonsense push for trans rights against transphobia and the far right is what turns the wheel of change on this. Not pumping the brake the moment someone sees a trans woman in a woman's space.

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Not dismissing at all. I know 100 percent how supportive era is of trans individuals and LGBTIAQ+ in general. But the unfortunate reality is the entire world isn't there yet. Confronting that reality is the challenge.

 

[Deleted member 25606]

I mean did you watch Jessie genders video though? Its pretty heartbreaking. She even showcases a clip from a couple years back of a politician running for office harassing someone in the bathroom. Im not saying antifa is bad at all. Im pro antifa in fact, but the sad hyper polarized reality is that all these issues end up in something violent. As jeesie said. Its super sad this happening on something like transgender rights. Someone just trying to exist and live

Where are you seeing that i am saying there should be spaces a trans person shouldn't be allowed?

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I don't need to watch a fucking video, I am transgender, this is my fucking existence and my life has been stunted along with major mental issues and substance abuse based on my fear of a world that would rather see me dead.

And yes framing this about changing rooms or spas being different than bathrooms is literaly making it a debate about excluding trans people from some spaces.

 

[Kyuuji]

Not dismissing at all. I know 100 percent how supportive era is of trans individuals and LGBTIAQ+ in general. But the unfortunate reality is the entire world isn't there yet. Confronting that reality is the challenge.

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Confronting that reality is what life is. If your friends, or you, are caught up over a trans woman being in a women's spa then move to learn about the history of transphobia and how these things come to be.

 

[meowdi gras]

OP has strong JAQ vibes, IMO. Been seeing a lot of that lately, as in recent threads on some of last week's Olympics board rulings.

As for the topic of the thread, I recall once I was invited by a cis friend to come workout with her at a dance studio. Due to concerns similar to those exhibited at this spa, I phoned the studio owners ahead of time and received their assurance that they had absolutely no issue with me using their women's changing room and that their clientele wouldn't either. (This was shortly after starting my transition before I was able to pass.) Although I was more than a bit nervous as this was my first time ever using a women's changing room and I didn't get fully naked, absolutely no one gave me any shit or so much as seemed to give me the side-eye. And this was in the American South. I was just another woman using the changing room at a dance studio, working out, then using it again afterwards to change back into my regular clothes. No big deal.

But the context here is that this was in mid-2014, before all this disingenuous culture war bullshit had been put into high-gear and trans women were suddenly a malignant threat to women and girls everywhere. Had I done this in more recent times, with all these bad actor Q-nutjobs lurking about looking to start shit, who knows that I wouldn't have wound up a target of national outrage?

In any event, this business at the spa is all manufactured bs. Let's not kid ourselves that it is anything otherwise.

 

[kyorii]

Edited op and clarifications.

 

[Clefargle]

I don't think it's an issue, just some posters surprised that people would bring their kids to such a place. It's not something commonly done in the US.

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Yeah that's why I asked, didn't know it was even a thing

 

[Deleted member 5086]

We need to work on destigmatizing the naked human body. To assume it's something that we should hide from children is very damaging. Lest posters come off sounding like prudes.

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Nothing wrong with children seeing naked bodies, but it is however strange to bring your children to a nude spa and then go "think of the children" like a puritan. If you don't want your children seeing genitals, simply do not bring them there.

 

[Thordinson]

OK im gonna toss a bigger lens on this. I know it's simple for ERA and most of us to say yeah, no big deal, rah rah trans rights. But IRL is not so black and white/simple.

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It is that simple. Trans rights are human rights. There's no grey area when it comes to human rights. There's no compromise to be made. Trans folk have the right to be who they are whenever and wherever they may be.

Absolutely i never said you werent. What i am looking at besides what happened here is how to navigate this with irl individuals i know, but overall too. Who are normally very progressive. That's what has caught me off guard. Some replies here have followed up on the fact and it's not so simple. We have a long fight ahead of us.

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They aren't normally very progressive if they have problems with trans folk. They aren't as progressive as you believe them to be.

 

[NeoBasch]

Something was bothering me earlier when I looked into this. The responses about potential predators... I dismissed them at first, but it was too troubling for me to ignore, so I started thinking...

Was that trans person actively preying on them? If not, then they shouldn't be concerned. While not common, at least that I know of, cis-male and females don't tend to prey on each other in the bathrooms. Again as far as I know, women only worry about men entering their bathrooms and preying on them. Which means they are worried because she was a male in terms of sex. However, she identifies as female and I assume it works in terms of gender identity too. Trans-women use the women's bathroom/spa's because that is how they identify. On top of that, they likely feel safe amongst their own sex.

I'm probably making huge assumptions here, and may be commenting on something I don't completely understand. Any trans people feel free to speak up. But I feel that they are basically calling for forcing trans-people to use bathrooms and spa's of the opposite sex, which they may not feel comfortable in. That's segregation.

And besides, what about trans-people's fears for being preyed on by the opposite sex if forced to use their bathrooms and spa's?

Anyways, those were just my thoughts.

/rant

 

[Snowybreak]

Damn, Era's gotten so bad that raw JAQing-off about trans folk is totally cool now.

 

[Stellares]

Damn, Era's gotten so bad that raw JAQing-off about trans folk is totally cool now.

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No kidding.

Our rights aren't some intellectual curiosity for you to debate OP. Framing our bodies as something that could offend your "progressive" cis friends as if we should be ashamed of ourselves and hide from the public.

 

[Deleted member 17092]

Oh no a penis.

I don't understand why people are so weird about nudity.

As long as someone isn't like obviously aroused/being a creep who gives a shit.

Honestly the lady making a stink is being a creep by staring and making a big thing out of this.

Mind your own business lady.

 

[BrightLightLava]

People keep saying "nude spa" like the nudity is the point, it's not a nude spa, it's a Korean Spa. You get there, you go to the locker rooms, undress, and bathe. Then you have the option of staying in the gendered naked section, with it's hot tubs, saunas and steam rooms or you can get dressed in the clothes they provide to go to the common area where they have all sorts of different steam rooms and saunas spa treatments and a snack bar.

You're expected to be naked during the bathing portion so you don't make the steam rooms gross.

For a lot of people that go, it's an all day family affair. They bring their kids (who rush through the bathing part to get to the snacks or play on the computers in the common area) and hang out all day to relax. People bring books to read or just take naps on the heated floors.

I've been a few times, and would guess the breakdown is usually 55% Asian, 30% white, 15% Black and Latino.

You can watch the segment from Conan, it's the same one that he went to.

 

[DOT_mjo]

Good on the spa for not caving to the bigots. We share the planet with some absolutely disgusting people smh. Imagine going to a nude spa and then being upset when you see ......somone nude. And they always have to bring up the Almighty Lord and Savior himself, Jesus Christ. The man in the sky who cares so much about what's swinging or not swinging between your legs.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

The poor framing of the source article is not conducive to good discussion. As such, this thread is being locked. If a better source on this story presents itself, feel free to make a new thread.