Vrr / serie x/ lg oled

Falus · Nov 8, 2020

So I've came accros this video about the issue regarding gamma level and vrr. I know there is a tv technical thread but I couldn't find answers easily. To put it simple. Is it better to disable vrr on a lg c9/Cx on the Xbox serie x ? (Ps5 doesn't have vrr anyway ).

Thanks !

PennyStonks · Nov 8, 2020

Some TVs raise gamma when VRR is enabled, so maybe?

s0l0kill · Nov 8, 2020

Honestly I don't know why do people even care at this point, XSX or PS5 can't do 4K/120 anyway unless it's on Tetris.
The only people that should care are PC gamers.
If you wanted to completely avoid the raised black levels you could just disable VRR, they'll probably add some gamma options for people to play with at some point, but with the current hardware a full on fix is unlikely.
BTW, that VRR issues exists on all TVs as far as I know, on the OLED it's just more visible because blacks are really black.

Falus · Nov 8, 2020

s0l0kill said:
Honestly I don't know why do people even care at this point, XSX or PS5 can't do 4K/120 anyway unless it's on Tetris.
The only people that should care are PC gamers.
If you wanted to completely avoid the raised black levels you could just disable VRR, they'll probably add some gamma options for people to play with at some point, but with the current hardware a full on fix is unlikely.
BTW, that VRR issues exists on all TVs as far as I know, on the OLED it's just more visible because blacks are really black.

Ori 2 / gears 5 MP / falconeer / probably new COD are 4k120

And I've read it doesn't affect only 4k120 but anything that has vrr enabled. My main question is should I disable it

Xtortion · Nov 8, 2020

I've had a C9 with VRR enabled on my Xbox since March, and haven't noticed this issue. Is there a particular game that demonstrates it?

ChristianM · Nov 8, 2020

Falus said:
Ps5 doesn't have vrr anyway

Wait what?

Wiggy · Nov 8, 2020

Yeah I heard about this issue too, how serious is it? I was gonna buy a CX for my ps5 but am now worried.

Deleted member 28231 · Nov 8, 2020

PS5 doesn't have ALLM either. Hope they'll add it soon.

Hasney · Nov 8, 2020

ChristianM said:
Wait what?

It doesn't have VRR yet.

Xtortion said:
I've had a C9 with VRR enabled on my Xbox since March, and haven't noticed this issue. Is there a particular game that demonstrates it?

It's mostly when games are hitting high frame rates, so you won't notice it until Series X.

If it's an issue, I'm guessing Ori will show it the most, with 120hz output and some real deep blacks.

SublimeAnarky · Nov 8, 2020

ChristianM said:
Wait what?

funo · Nov 8, 2020

I've read a couple of articles on the subject and here are my main takeaways...

- it is a hardware issue that cannot be fully ixed by firmware updates
-however, Firmware Updates CAN improve the TV's bevaviour a tiny bit so the issue won't be as noticable

- Main point that almost all articles mentioned: many ppl won't see it or won't care
The issue is NOT that serious if you simply stop lookin for it to haooen
Just play your games, if it bothers you, turn it off

ChristianM · Nov 8, 2020

Hasney said:
It doesn't have VRR yet.

Well, that's disappointing.

Reektan · Nov 8, 2020

I noticed it over the weekend when playing Little Nightmares and Little Hope. Both very dark games (literally) so you see the weird flashing gamma very often. This was on a 3080 at 4k 120hz using a HDMI 2.1 cable.

I have since just put the tv on 60hz using vsync for the time being and the issue doesn't happen as I was seeing it even at 60hz with gsync enabled which made the instant gaming response VRR fire up.

brain_stew · Nov 8, 2020

It's going to be personnel preference so just play around with it.

I'd personally always value fluidity and reduced stutter over slightly reduced image quality so if I had a CX rather than the B8 that I own I would have VRR enabled.

I'm in no rush to upgrade my B8 so this just gives me another reason to hold off upgrading. I'd ideally want higher peak brightness so that I can enable BFI with HDR content, and we're a long way off from that.

Falus · Nov 8, 2020

Reektan said:
I noticed it over the weekend when playing Little Nightmares and Little Hope. Both very dark games (literally) so you see the weird flashing gamma very often. This was on a 3080 at 4k 120hz using a HDMI 2.1 cable.

I have since just put the tv on 60hz using vsync for the time being and the issue doesn't happen as I was seeing it even at 60hz with gsync enabled which made the instant gaming response VRR fire up.

You can still have 120fps without vrr on serie x isn't it ? So the best solution is just disabling vrr maybe ?

Fliep · Nov 8, 2020

Really bummed about the LG Oleds. Got a C9 in spring and VRR was one of the main things I was looking forward too. I hope it won't be really noticeable but I won't get my hopes up.

Edge · Nov 8, 2020

Fliep said:
Really bummed about the LG Oleds. Got a C9 in spring and VRR was one of the main things I was looking forward too. I hope it won't be really noticeable but I won't get my hopes up.

It's not particular about the LG OLEDs, even if the video, that nobody linked yet, has this as main topic.

He also says that this affects other TVs too including LCDs and QLED. It's a general problem. But he sums it up with that he still recommends everyone the C9 and CX because even with that they are with the absolute best that you can buy for games.

Ferrs · Nov 8, 2020

If you notice it and annoys you, disable VRR, if no, keep it. Shouldn't be much noticeable or straight out not noticeable overall, but depends on the scene.

Falus · Nov 8, 2020

Ferrs said:
If you notice it and annoys you, disable VRR, if no, keep it. Shouldn't be much noticeable or straight out not noticeable overall, but depends on the scene.

But can it be explained more easily ? Which gsme will it affect exactly ? Only 4k120'likr ori or every game as long as 4k120 is enabled in settings ?

Ferrs · Nov 8, 2020

Falus said:
But can it be explained more easily ? Which gsme will it affect exactly ? Only 4k120'likr ori or every game as long as 4k120 is enabled in settings ?

The issue comes in near black image, so the darker the image the most noticeable should be, so horror games for example. Brighter games would surely will be not noticeable at all.

This is why the issue is more noticeable on OLEDs, even though it also happens on LEDs.

The issue doesn't kick when you put 120hz, it kicks (if I understand it correctly) when the VRR "works" (for saying something) with the variable refresh rate, and it constanly shift depending on how the framerate moves, that's why it's not possible to just patch it or simpy change the calibration. So if you put your TV in 120hz mode it doesn't happen as long as VRR is off (or it's ON and the framerate is locked) and even still if it happens it would only be noticeable in near black detail.

Rbk_3 · Nov 8, 2020

Fliep said:
Really bummed about the LG Oleds. Got a C9 in spring and VRR was one of the main things I was looking forward too. I hope it won't be really noticeable but I won't get my hopes up.

I have been playing on mine at 120fps with VRR for a year plus and haven't noticed this issue at all. I am pretty anal when it comes to this kind of thing. It's not a big deal at all.

napk1ns · Nov 8, 2020

I haven't noticed VRR on the C9 menu - is that something you'd adjust on the console side?

Falus · Nov 8, 2020

Ferrs said:
The issue comes in near black image, so the darker the image the most noticeable should be, so horror games for example. Brighter games would surely will be not noticeable at all.

This is why the issue is more noticeable on OLEDs, even though it also happens on LEDs.

The issue doesn't kick when you put 120hz, it kicks (if I understand it correctly) when the VRR "works" (for saying something) with the variable refresh rate, and it constanly shift depending on how the framerate moves, that's why it's not possible to just patch it or simpy change the calibration. So if you put your TV in 120hz mode it doesn't happen as long as VRR is off (or it's ON and the framerate is locked) and even still if it happens it would only be noticeable in near black detail.

So says Ori 2. It has pretty deep black in many areas. It's 4k120. It should be visible possibly ? And does it happens with 4k60 games with vrr as well ?

napk1ns · Nov 8, 2020

Ferrs said:
The issue comes in near black image, so the darker the image the most noticeable should be, so horror games for example. Brighter games would surely will be not noticeable at all.

This is why the issue is more noticeable on OLEDs, even though it also happens on LEDs.

The issue doesn't kick when you put 120hz, it kicks (if I understand it correctly) when the VRR "works" (for saying something) with the variable refresh rate, and it constanly shift depending on how the framerate moves, that's why it's not possible to just patch it or simpy change the calibration. So if you put your TV in 120hz mode it doesn't happen as long as VRR is off (or it's ON and the framerate is locked) and even still if it happens it would only be noticeable in near black detail.

This is super disappointing. Hopefully this is just an issue with VRR and not 120hz in general.

ChristianM · Nov 8, 2020

Rbk_3 said:
I have been playing on mine at 120fps with VRR for a year plus and haven't noticed this issue at all. I am pretty anal when it comes to this kind of thing. It's not a big deal at all.

This! Most people will never even notice.

EvilBoris · Nov 8, 2020

There are very few games that actually engage VRR from my experience, and when there is, if it really bothers you, turn the brightness down in game to compensate

Lobster Roll · Nov 8, 2020

Edge said:
It's not particular about the LG OLEDs, even if the video, that nobody linked yet, has this as main topic.

He also says that this affects other TVs too including LCDs and QLED. It's a general problem. But he sums it up with that he still recommends everyone the C9 and CX because even with that they are with the absolute best that you can buy for games.

Whoa wtf? I assumed that both consoles were able to use VRR? Like I thought it was just a standard feature this gen.

ChristianM · Nov 8, 2020

Falus said:
So says Ori 2. It has pretty deep black in many areas. It's 4k120. It should be visible possibly ? And does it happens with 4k60 games with vrr as well ?

If the game runs at 120hz with no drops (as they state) it doesn't matter. The "issue" occurs when VRR kicks in. I.e. when the framerate drops below 120hz.

CottonWolf · Nov 8, 2020

Lobster Roll said:
Whoa wtf? I assumed that both consoles were able to use VRR? Like I thought it was just a standard feature this gen.

It's on the PS5 spec sheet, so it will be getting it presumably, it's just not there at launch apparently.

Vuze · Nov 8, 2020

Just disable it if you notice it, leave it on if you don't? Don't let the problem hype culture on the internet get you.

Edge · Nov 8, 2020

Lobster Roll said:
Whoa wtf? I assumed that both consoles were able to use VRR? Like I thought it was just a standard feature this gen.

You can, it's no problem. But VRR can raise the black level because of the high refresh rate and how self lit pixels work.
There's still a good chance you won't even notice that, it's probably highly situational.

Edit:

Oh you meant PS5? Yeah it doesn't work there yet, but since it was on the sheet, it's either coming with a patch or is always working in the background (which would be pretty bad because of this exact problem as example).

Falus · Nov 8, 2020

ChristianM said:
If the game runs at 120hz with no drops (as they state) it doesn't matter. The "issue" occurs when VRR kicks in. I.e. when the framerate drops below 120hz.

Vrr only kicks in when there is free drops ?

J_ToSaveTheDay · Nov 8, 2020

Two things I'm hoping to clarify:

1) The gamma curve only skews with VRR enabled, I thought? A normal 4K/120Hz signal should be just fine, shouldn't it? Because the panel natively refreshes at 120Hz. I thought the gamma only got weird with VRR enabled because the panel's pixels over or undercharge due to the fluctuation outside of the 120Hz voltage that it's designed for as it dynamically shifts its refresh rate.

2) when the gamma gets weird due to VRR, is the black heightening effect more exaggerated and noticeable than the black levels on backlit displays? Because I can live with black levels that look like LED/LCD if it means higher framerates. But if there's some sort of exaggeration to the effect that's beyond that, I'll either have to tinker on a per game basis or just pass on VRR altogether

ChristianM · Nov 8, 2020

Falus said:
Vrr only kicks in when there is free drops ?

VRR = variable refresh rate. If a game runs at a locked 120hz, VRR does not really do anything. Look at the video by hdtvtest. He explains the issue quite thoroughly.

Edit: Maybe the issue occurs anyway, just by having VRR enabled, even when the framerate is locked at 120hz. But the way he describes it I would think no. But I should state that I'm not 100% sure.

Jamaro · Nov 8, 2020

napk1ns said:
This is super disappointing. Hopefully this is just an issue with VRR and not 120hz in general.

The displays are optimized for 120hz and there will be no issue with steady 120hz. It's an issue with VRR only.

Still really disappointing to hear as VRR up to 120 hz at 4K is a reason I was happy to get the C9. But I guess there are still a thousand other reasons to enjoy the TV, and hopefully the issue isn't glaringly obvious to where VRR will need to be turned off or settings will need to be tweaked.

ChristianM said:
Edit: Maybe the issue occurs anyway, just by having VRR enabled, even when the framerate is locked at 120hz. But the way he describes it I would think no. But I should state that I'm not 100% sure.

I'm far from an expert on this but it logically shouldn't do anything if you have VRR on and the game is holding completely steady at 120 FPS thus not causing the display to vary the refresh rate. It has to do with panels being optimized for sub pixel charging at 120Hz, therefore when going to a lower refresh rate causing sub pixels to sometimes be overcharged. The statement from the OLED association in the video gives an example, where a 40Hz frame is longer than a 120Hz frame, resulting in overcharged sub pixels because of the gamma curve being optimized for 120Hz.

So by this logic I'm thinking it's something that may be far less noticeable the closer the refresh rate is to 120Hz, and perhaps it becomes more noticeable the slower the refresh rate is. I could be wrong about this.

Seb 117 · Nov 8, 2020

Just bring down brightness to 48 on the tv ,or in the game settings.

Falus · Nov 8, 2020

Seb 117 said:
Just bring down brightness to 48 on the tv ,or in the game settings.

I've spent hours doing my settings for video. I don't want to change :(

Jtrizzy · Nov 8, 2020

Never noticed this on my C9, personally. I play at 1440p120hz.

Seb 117 · Nov 8, 2020

Falus said:
I've spent hours doing my settings for video. I don't want to change :(

I have an oled bx , and turned on freesync premium and the vrr option on xbox one x , and started to play warzone, never noticed a change even on the gulag, that place is very dark. My tv is set 100 oled light, 100 contrast , 49 brightness.

Falus · Nov 8, 2020

Seb 117 said:
I have an oled bx , and turned on freesync premium and the vrr option on xbox one x , and started to play warzone, never noticed a change even on the gulag, that place is very dark. My tv is set 100 oled light, 100 contrast , 49 brightness.

I'm at 50 brightness. I shall see soon

Rhaknar · Nov 8, 2020

P40L0 you're up

Powerofthecloud · Nov 8, 2020

EvilBoris said:
There are very few games that actually engage VRR from my experience, and when there is, if it really bothers you, turn the brightness down in game to compensate

Wouldnt we already have seen this with Gsync though on the c9/cx. I mean if thats what it looks like, I guess its fine to me.

EvilBoris · Nov 8, 2020

Powerofthecloud said:
Wouldnt we already have seen this with Gsync though on the c9/cx. I mean if thats what it looks like, I guess its fine to me.

indeed. The same thing happens there. It's not a big deal, it's very slight.

P40L0 · Nov 8, 2020

Falus said:
So I've came accros this video about the issue regarding gamma level and vrr. I know there is a tv technical thread but I couldn't find answers easily. To put it simple. Is it better to disable vrr on a lg c9/Cx on the Xbox serie x ? (Ps5 doesn't have vrr anyway ).

Thanks !

Rhaknar said:
P40L0 you're up

Once you've updated CX to latest firmware (OTA or manually via LG website), you should enable 4K/120hz and VRR on your Xbox Series X|S (just disable AMD Freesync which automatically disable Dolby Vision...and you want to have Dolby Vision).

VRR "issues" with C9/CX are way overly exaggerated.

It actually works and looks great as per Digital Foundry Gears 5 preview on XSX, and you probably may never notice the Gamma variation in very few situations.

sirap · Nov 8, 2020

You notice it or you don't.

I do, which is why I bump down brightness and deal with a slight black crush. The effect gets worse the lower your frame rate is in VRR, and huge fluctuations in FPS will make flickering very apparent in darker scenes. 100-120 FPS is fine. It's barely there at 80-90, and the gamma lift is very noticeable at or below 60. It's not the end of the world, at worse you'll have near blacks that look very similar to FALD TVs.

It's an annoyance but what can you do. Just hope that console developers do it right and optimize their games to perform at a solid 30/60.

LavaBadger · Nov 8, 2020

Is there any video of this happening that people could post? I've actually been researching this for days.

If VRR/gsync has a problem on the CX, I'm not paying nearly 2k for it; it should be damn near perfect.

But if the problem really is exaggerated, and the gamma change is very subtle (Maybe unless you're seeing really hard swings in fps), then I'd still consider it.

sirap · Nov 8, 2020

LavaBadger said:
Is there any video of this happening that people could post? I've actually been researching this for days.

If VRR/gsync has a problem on the CX, I'm not paying nearly 2k for it; it should be damn near perfect.

But if the problem really is exaggerated, and the gamma change is very subtle (Maybe unless you're seeing really hard swings in fps), then I'd still consider it.

I'll try to record mine when I have the time, but this video demonstrates it clearly.

It's very slight, but it can be annoying when you're used to OLED's inky blacks or play in the dark. Bumping down the brightness does help, but it's not an ideal solution unless you don't mind micromanaging your settings for different games. The bigger issue is flickering.

dadoes · Nov 8, 2020

LavaBadger said:
Is there any video of this happening that people could post? I've actually been researching this for days.

If VRR/gsync has a problem on the CX, I'm not paying nearly 2k for it; it should be damn near perfect.

But if the problem really is exaggerated, and the gamma change is very subtle (Maybe unless you're seeing really hard swings in fps), then I'd still consider it.

Issues can happen at any price range. Just because something costs a certain amount didn't mean it's perfect.

I see people make this same argument all the time.

I paid 30k for my car, why does it have all those problems.

I paid 1 mill for this brand new house, why does this wall have a crack in it.

Lol

Yappa · Nov 8, 2020

sirap said:
You notice it or you don't.

I do, which is why I bump down brightness and deal with a slight black crush. The effect gets worse the lower your frame rate is in VRR, and huge fluctuations in FPS will make flickering very apparent in darker scenes. 100-120 FPS is fine. It's barely there at 80-90, and the gamma lift is very noticeable at or below 60. It's not the end of the world, at worse you'll have near blacks that look very similar to FALD TVs.

It's an annoyance but what can you do. Just hope that console developers do it right and optimize their games to perform at a solid 30/60.

Does the framerate have to fluctuate, e.g. playing a game at 60 fps that sometimes has 55-58 fps or do the issues also show up when playing a game with locked 60 fps as long as VRR is enabled?

LavaBadger · Nov 8, 2020

sirap said:
I'll try to record mine when I have the time, but this video demonstrates it clearly.

It's very slight, but it can be annoying when you're used to OLED's inky blacks or play in the dark. Bumping down the brightness does help, but it's not an ideal solution unless you don't mind micromanaging your settings for different games. The bigger issue is flickering.

Thank you for the video. Definitely the issue I'm actually concerned with is the in-game effect of the change. The flicker (Presumably induced by shifts in frame rate) sounds like it would be very distracting, and given that the whole point of VRR is to smooth out the way experience of frame rate shifts, would be pretty counter to using it. I don't mind bumping the brightness up or down in a game to account for the use of VRR, but you can't really account for it if the gamma is going to be constantly and noticeably shifting.

dadoes said:
Issues can happen at any price range. Just because something costs a certain amount didn't mean it's perfect.

I see people make this same argument all the time.

I paid 30k for my car, why does it have all those problems.

I paid 1 mill for this brand new house, why does this wall have a crack in it.

Lol

Not really a helpful remark, nor a logical comparison.

If you're fine with paying for a premium product and don't care if one of the selling points has problems, then that's great for you.

Vrr / serie x/ lg oled

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