How familiar are you with fighting games in general?
After my time with GBVS, I'd say start there, but that game is also not out for another 3 months.
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Video: the many problems of Fighting games
- Thread starter fireflame
- Start date
How familiar are you with fighting games in general?
After my time with GBVS, I'd say start there, but that game is also not out for another 3 months.
I've played smash with friends, played injustice 1 a lot with my brother, I've picked up Pokken, and arms on switch and played them a bit, but could never get people consistently interested in it.
loved the dragon ball z fighters when I was a kid, really wanted to get fighters Z but was pretty intimidated so I never ended up picking it up.
He's saying that while it's all well and good that fighting games have a high skill ceiling requiring effort, it should still be fun getting better at the game to begin with. It's unreasonable for a new player to want to play the game not until they get good (the optimal outcome of putting time into the game), but until it starts being fun.
I'd say a low investment game that could work is KI since it's on gamepass.
If you want something current that's easy to jump into and bombastic enough to grab people's attention, DBfZ is really good for that.
Penitentiaries are pack with promise makers, never realized the time these stick people is wastin institutionalize buying product built to crumble.
Fighting games seem to be a alien place to some people.
Fighting games seem to be a alien place to some people.
It's fun from the start if you like the genre, and that's true with most games and their respective genres. I don't like sports games, the start or getting better at them isn't' going to change that. It would be silly for me to start blaming the genre.
If you don't enjoy the act of just playing a fighting game, then...what are you even doing?
I love everything about fighting games, even when I'm losing.
I would honestly say just wait for Granblue at this point. It'll have a large community at the outset, it's really simple to pick up and play and a good starting point.
they talked about practice reducing controls being stressful, which still makes it a terrible example
all players, casual or hardcore or in-between, need to practice to get better at games. ANY game. i don't care if it's Bloodborne, MK11, or Angry Birds, you can only get better with practice.
That isn't my point at all. Where did you get that idea?
Sure, I think there has not yet been a traditional fighting game with more accessible inputs which have the presentation and character design that hangs with the best in the genre, but that does not mean I think the answer is taking over the series that are already good and popular with current fighting game fans. Nor does it mean i hate everything about fighting games and that there's never be a game that could satisfy me. I think Granblue looks pretty good and it might be the thing for me.
And the only pushback I really mean to exert is on the arguments that don't make sense to me. I feel like you're misunderstanding that pushback because you're assuming an agenda which I don't have.
There seems to be a huge number of false assumptions fighting game fans make about the people talking about this stuff. You say it's because you're too fed up to engage, but I wonder there's a feedback loop of assuming the worst from people, and letting that inform your next engagement assuming even worse from people.
I don't think people are saying this. People are getting too hung up with the inputs. As we keep saying, there are games out there with simple inputs, but simple inputs alone isn't going to make a fighting game fun for you and they're not going to automatically make you a better player. When someone just wants to throw a hadouken constantly with Ryu, will they still find it fun when their opponent/CPU avoids it and counters because they don't know about blocking, movement, and spacing, etc.? There are no two ways about it, regardless of special moves, controls, inputs or what have you. If you want to learn a fighting game, you will have to put in time and effort. This goes for all of them, Smash included.
The main issue I have is just that I don't think that simplified inputs alone are what's going to crack this nut of getting people into the core experience of the competitive 1v1 thing. At a fundamental level I think people are just missing the forest for the trees in analyzing what makes Smash Ultimate fun and Street Fighter V too uninviting (for instance). What the former really has going for it is presentation and incredibly flexible gameplay. Sure, that every character has the same basic inputs might help a bit. But Smash isn't going to be fun for you if you just decided to hop into the competitive rulesets without wanting to learn how to play the game.
That's a lot of superfluous details that ignores the core of the comparison, which is that both Dark Souls and Street Fighter take a couple hours before you're really used to the controls and able to move beyond that phase to start meaningfully playing and having fun.
Now you could argue that even a couple hours is too much and all games should be accessible enough to be able to engage with immediately, but it's still a good comparison.
But complicated inputs alone can make a fighting game NOT fun. Smash Bros., Naruto Gekitou Ninja Taisen (I think they're called Clash of Ninjas in English?), Rising Thunder - these were all games that were fun right from the start. They're flashy & easy to play and in 2 of those cases, have a great 4 player FFA mode.
Simplifying the controls isn't the only route that these games could take to make them more fun for new players. For example, I'd totally play a cool fighting game that had a DMC-style story mode. That provides a low stress way for people to enjoy the gameplay and learn how to play before hopping into online multiplayer.
Correct, it's been done. The direct and immediate success doesn't translate.
It's almost like the characters and content sell more than the direct mechanics...while the mechanics will keep existing players playing longer.
Yup. Even with smash, if you go into Elite smash lobbies without knowing how to play that game, and there is a LOT to learn, you're going to have a bad time.
Is there any other competitive game where there's sustained resistance to loosened dexterity requirements? I remember, for instance, that when Starcraft 2 was announced, all the old pros were up in arms about the improved pathing, saying it would make things too easy, but this quickly died down.
I stopped enjoying most fighting games a long time ago because of input complexity (both in remembering and in executing) but people like me and others will just be told that they need to treat a game like a serious hobby and don't dare complain about controls because you''ll just be shouted down by people with fighting game avatars spouting the same five talking points ad infinitum.
I can't see how newcomers to fighters find fun in a genre of games they don't yet understand.
I would assume part of the problem for those getting into fighting games is that they don't love them heart and soul like you do, naturally, because they have no reason to yet.
Smash is fun to learn because there's a slab of meat surrounding the bones. You learn
Simplifying the controls is just one (arguable) piece of the puzzle that everyone involved on both sides of the argument is too focused on.
If you pick up Smash and then immediately try to dunk someone better than you than yeah, of course that ain't gonna work, but Smash is like the poster boy of putting surrounding content in a game that makes it worthwhile beyond just improving for its own sake
If you aren't having fun playing Bloodborne or Angry Bird while learning the mechanics, why continue? What value is there, inherently, in getting better a video game?
I Got Gud at Bloodborne because it was worth getting into and it seems the problem is that casual fans of fighters who want to break into the genre aren't seeing the payoff of that effort.
And just think how so many of these people that can't do QCF or string together combos can build a hotel while jumping and headshotting you in under 5 seconds in Fortnite.
If all your friends were doing it, you would put in the time to do it. When people say they go online in modern matchmaking fighters and get destroyed and perfected, just know you are getting matched up with others with no experience in that game...so it's very telling.
If all your friends were doing it, you would put in the time to do it. When people say they go online in modern matchmaking fighters and get destroyed and perfected, just know you are getting matched up with others with no experience in that game...so it's very telling.
This is probably an unrealistic ask of most FG devs, but these kinds of single player experiences are what get people to play and learn complex action games without running away scared.
Capcom is especially good about this. DMC, Monster Hunter, Dragon's Dogma, these are all pretty complicated games, but people stick with them and learn them because they gradually ramp up the difficulty and complexity while proving lures in the form of story, spectacle, and repeated victories against the computer. Fighters dump you online after you're done with the tutorial and you'll either fight players around your skill level and win 50% of the time or the matchmaking will fail and you'll get blown up by killers.
Case in point: If I go online when SF6 comes out and the matchmaking works as intended, I'll win 50% of my matches. Meanwhile I didn't fail a single hunt in Monster Hunter for my first 100 hours. One of those feels a lot better.
Do you think we all were just born with fighting game knowledge or something? We all started off that way. From the birth of the Genre (Karate Champ or so) up to Tekken 3 I was casual as hell. I didn't understand most of the mechanics in these games, and I found them just as enjoyable as I do now. I couldn't even throw fireballs back in SFII. I wouldn't actually learn that until Alpha. I can't play SFII worth shit to this day besides fundamentals.
Good single-player modes are definitely something that all fighting game devs need to work on, no question. But I remember those good ole days with GNT and Naruto: Ultimate Ninja on PS2. They were super super simple and incredibly fun, but if you didn't learn about jutsu locking or wave dashing or input canceling, you just lost all the time against other people. Even the simplest games still require learning. But yes, there should be things in these games, from the mainstream to the lesser-known that makes learning these techniques fun.
And at the end of the day, we still have yet to figure out a way to make people want to keep playing once the single-player gameplay is over, because the most likely thing that happens is that the techniques used to fight the CPU don't apply AT ALL against human players, and they get bodied because their opponent had a better understanding of fighting games then they did.
Unfortunately I don't have an Xbox, but cost isn't really a barrier for me at this point in my life, so I'm not really worried about paying for new games. Is dbfz's comm
comes out in May? Cool, I'll pick it up when it's out.
But practically every fighting game now has a story mode? In addition to other single player "low stress" modes, like the standard Arcade mode. Nobody is expecting inexperienced players to just jump online from the get-go. These offline modes are there, along with tutorials and - most stress free of all - training mode.
Unless you meant something more specific by "DMC-style"
Heh, it's funny, I started KI last month ended up going 60/60 on my path to gold, and couldn't tell if that was me being okay at the game or KI's matchmaking being godlike.
February (if XSEED doesn't mess this up[Please don't mess this up])
exactly
why play fighting games and complain about them if you aren't enjoying them? leave them alone and let the people who *do* like them continue to play them
I really don't get people that say that a newbie gotta train a lot before they have fun. I had fun doing arcade SF4 runs on a 360 pad before I even learned how to throw a fireball. I had fun being bopped online because moving, trying to guess what my opponent was gonna do and hitting buttons was fun. Seeing my opponent pull out a crazy option and pull off some awesome looking combos was fun, even if I was the one taking them. The fun was always there. Just because you lost doesn't mean the match wasn't fun.
Of course not, but if you started when you were a little kid then of course you didn't mind not understanding shit about fighters. It was just fun to flail around.
I think the problem in the first place is that they want to get better but it feels like an insurmountable wall without much reason to continue.
Why can't you have fun flailing around now? That's what playing casual is, so people want to play casual but NOT play casual?
I would just say you have a good attitude about it.
If these threads are any indication, people get super frustrated knowing there's tech they can't do immediately because of lack of dexterity or knowledge, even if they don't know how to wield said moves or knowledge.
Moving, while simultaneously adjusting a camera & doing actions also prevents a high control barrier of entry, but the difference there is that many different genres (including single-player games) use these kinds of controls so it's much easier to become experienced with them. Give a total non-gamer a FPS and they'll probably have even more trouble than they would with the latest fighting game.
But are they good story modes? Most story modes of fighting games I've played have been "Don't play the game for long stretches of time while you read bad fanfic & then periodically play 1 fight of a standard Arcade mode." Unless you really care about the story, it doesn't make for great 1P content.
By DMC-style, I meant that Devil May Cry seems about as close to a 1P fighting game as you can get. If the next Street Fighter had a 1P mode that was basically a short DMC game with Street Fighter characters, I'd pick it up. At the very least, Edge Master Mode way back when in Soul Edge was a fun RPG-lite way of playing the game & there's no good reason why a fighting game can't at least do something as fun as that.
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I basically just think that we are conflating different issues. One group of people is arguing that it's too daunting to get good at fighting games and are trying to figure out how we can decrease the skill barrier so that people can get good faster and start having fun. Personally? I think these people are attacking the conversation all wrong. What Smash Bros. does is make a game that is so flexible that people can play it however they like and have fun and never have to get good at it. If all you want to do is play timed free for alls with items on on zany stages then have at it! If, however, your aim is to actually climb the ranks of Elite Smash and prove your mettle in the game I think you're going to run into the same walls here as you do in other fighting games.
If the argument is that more games need to look at GBFV's forthcoming RPG campaign mode and have stuff like that as an entry point then I agree that's the best path for growth. If the argument is that more people would play SFV ranked modes if they had dedicated Hadouken and Shoryuken buttons then I disagree and think that this will make little difference.
Nothing should ever improve or change lest people territorial about their preferences get upset.
I was way into Starcraft 2, and I don't remember that much pushback against the loosened dexterity requirements at all. Discussion about it for sure, but I wouldn't say pushback. I think people did find it going a bit too far when Protoss balls of units were the most efficient micro, but that was solved by buffing and designing more units with positioning requirements.
It probably helped that the huge boost to popularity of the franchise outside of korea helped those pro's careers, and I think everyone knew that'd probably not be as much the case if not for simplifying the execution.
If you want to get better at anything, then you have to practice. And now we're back at the original point that was brought up, and will continue to be brought up, in that casual players want to find excuses to avoid improving.
Now I want to see a Fighting game version of The Witness where it controls like Street Fighter but has no threats of any kinds so people can figure out the controls in peace while not feeling like they aren't progressing because it's training mode.
But they ARE changing.
Those people just ignore the changes, slump their shoulders and lament about how hard it all is.
Real talk, that's what Shenmue was once.
But also real talk...Let me tell you about a little game called GRAN BLUE FANTASY VERSUS!
I feel like this is always the way of argument for dedicated fighting game players. Not improving or enjoying the game is not the fault of the game or the way in which it does or does not bring people along. The game is perfect. All hail the game.
Counterpoint, from one of the most influential and well-known FGC players and commentators in the entire scene (language warning if you're sensitive to that kind of thing)
And so many more that I can't embed in a single post, like
And so many more that I can't embed in a single post, like
I've seen that mentioned a lot and I have no idea what it is. This reply is finally making me go and investigate.
An adult player will, naturally, try to improve at the game and hit a ceiling that a child won't care about. Eventually they'll stop having fun because of hitting this ceiling.
The game needs to be worth improving at, is what I was trying to get at. I think, in particular to fighting games, it's daunting because there's dozens of titles that all require a time and money commitment.
I mean, those people say that because people make simplified fighters all the time and the people complaining about how hard fighters are don't play them.
You can have a bevy or reasons to choose a fighting game, but like, you gotta start somewhere. At least you can still rent games.
But things don't improve from these discussions, all that happens is devs make a game with a lower skill ceiling so it's easier understand and learn, casuals still don't buy it since they don't actually play those kind of games, fans drop it quickly since it gets boring, and then the next game goes back to actually considering the audience that buys these games.
It's a tale as old as time and happens in every genre.
"Games take time to play"
The time doesn't matter if you actually enjoy playing the game. This goes for all games, look when people complain about the length of game, it's always tied to how much like/hate the game.
That's the thing...I've always liked them. From the moment I put a quarter in to SF2. I didn't know wtf I was doing, but I enjoyed everything about playing.
This also ignores the fact that there's literally a world of difference between SoulCalibur and SF. Between KI and Psychic Force. I loved Ehrgheiz, Tobal, Bloody Roar and Destrega.
It doesn't take "getting into." I'm the type of person who will never agree with the "wait until it gets good." If you're not enjoying from jump, then move on. That's cool, not everything is for everybody. If you haven't found a fighting game out there that makes you want to keep playing, and through playing get better, then it's not the genre.
vvvvv
^^^^^
games take time to play? real shit!?!?
I never understand how simplifying stuff makes less skilled players better. It just makes the people who were already good at the game even better and more likely to win. The only way is through gambling mechanics not microtransactions but actual gamble mechanics and shit like Xfactor. Straight robbing the skilled players of wins.
Go play any other MP games like COD, League, Overwatch and you have the same if not worse in skill gaps but you can blame others for your losses or the losses aren't very well communicated in that they are meaningless.
Go play any other MP games like COD, League, Overwatch and you have the same if not worse in skill gaps but you can blame others for your losses or the losses aren't very well communicated in that they are meaningless.