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Darryl M R

The Spectacular PlayStation-Man
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,721
Full article here by Gita Jackson

Over the past twenty years, The Sims has done its best to keep up with a rapidly changing world, and to be more inclusive in terms of what kind of people you can play as. From the first game's notorious same-sex kiss at E3 that lead to the game including same-sex romance in 2000 to The Sims 4's trans-masc icon Morgyn Embers, the franchise has always tried for a maximalist approach to play, including in customizing your character. Pearson and I talked all about that, and also about our favorite conspiracy theories regarding the disappeared Bella Goth.


Although my Sims play time has fallen over the last few years, I always enjoyed the welcoming and inclusive nature of the games. The article is a good and short read.
 

tr1b0re

Member
Oct 17, 2018
1,329
Trinidad and Tobago
Well they aren't wrong

I distinctly remember being really surprised as a kid that you could have same sex romances in the first game; something that I barely saw in media in general at the time

Really important as a gay kid growing up in a pretty homopobic country
 

Order

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,465
Gita's love for the Sims is infectious

I'm downloading the Sims 4 when I get off work
 

Vitor

Member
Oct 30, 2017
517
The way they deal with gender stuff in TS4 is amazing, every game with a character creator should aspire be like it.
 

Pau

Self-Appointed Godmother of Bruce Wayne's Children
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,847
Read this when it was linked in the Sims OT. Great article!

I haven't made the switch to 4 yet... maybe after I finish grad school.
 

Deleted member 3815

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Oct 25, 2017
6,633
Disagree completely, to date there is a complete exclusion of disabled sim. So if a disabled person wanted to created themselves into the sim, they can not.
 

Deleted member 7883

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
2,387
Disagree completely, to date there is a complete exclusion of disabled sim. So if a disabled person wanted to created themselves into the sim, they can not.
while The Sims (and a helluva lot of other games) need more representation from disabled folks, I think it's unfair to flatout say NOPE to their impact. The Sims have supported Same-Sex relationships in one form or another since day one... even tho you can't actually have same-sex marriage. BUT. It was the 90s, they were miles ahead of any other dev in terms of inclusivity, and they've stayed in front ever since.

Lastly, seeing as you completely ignored the article in OP, you should be interested in learning that Maxis has confirmed "they are actively looking into adding disabled Sims into the game, but they seem cautious and want to do it properly, which I believe is a good thing." Unless you already knew about this?
 

Ravelle

Member
Oct 31, 2017
17,804
Disagree completely, to date there is a complete exclusion of disabled sim. So if a disabled person wanted to created themselves into the sim, they can not.

From a mechanical standpoint I can see this become difficult, sims get stuck and have trouble listening at times unless you brute force them to do something. Having them have disabilities, wheelchairs and such seems hard to do but who knows, perhaps they'll think of something.
 
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Darryl M R

Darryl M R

The Spectacular PlayStation-Man
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,721
Disagree completely, to date there is a complete exclusion of disabled sim. So if a disabled person wanted to created themselves into the sim, they can not.
Completely? A flat out denial of the Sims being a pioneer of diversity and inclusion seems odd, especially when it is hard to point to other games that contain similar diversity of characters. That's not to say the Sims couldn't try to implement a system for Sims with disabilities, but it seems reactionary to state that the Sims isn't leading the charge.

If there is future implementation, I hope it doesn't come as a DLC pack but rather an update for the base game(s).

From a mechanical standpoint I can see this become difficult, sims get stuck and have trouble listening at times unless you brute force them to do something. Having them have disabilities, wheelchairs and such seems hard to do but who knows, perhaps they'll think of something.
I'd imagine that it would limit certain mechanics, but people already do that with pack updates like Small Living. I could see new custom animations being required and few activities being locked off, but I think a lot of people find fun in making their Sims unique and not a jack of all trade. So it sounds like a win-win situation if (and hopefully when) disabled Sims are added.
 
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Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,359
Disabled Sims are a difficult issue to tackle. Just imagine the bad press it will garner when players (or journos) do to disabled Sims what they already did for 20 years to every other Sim in existence. Like, setting them on fire, selling the ladder-out of the pool, entomb a Sim to make him starve, etc.
You don't see at a glance if the Sim that was set on fire was straight or LGBTQ+, but when the picture displays a Sim in a wheelchair getting set on fire...
 
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OP
Darryl M R

Darryl M R

The Spectacular PlayStation-Man
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,721
Fail states would have to be altered or removed for sure. It could be something like, "Because you traverse through the world more aware of obstacles, your actions are more intentions, thus ensuring 100% success for certain actions."
 

Ted

Member
Oct 25, 2017
431
-72.290091, 0.795254
I haven't made the switch to 4 yet...

There are dozens of us!

On topic, I'm conflicted about the interview, because I agree with this entirely:

Really important as a gay kid growing up in a pretty homopobic country

Having representations of yourself and being able to actively experiment without fear of failure or scorn are incredibly, incredibly important to learning and personal growth.

But, I also have to agree with:

Disagree completely, to date there is a complete exclusion of disabled sim. So if a disabled person wanted to created themselves into the sim, they can not.

It seems to me that the conversation around inclusivity tends to either ignore disabled folks or write the issue off as too hard or too sensitive.

Lastly, seeing as you completely ignored the article in OP, you should be interested in learning that Maxis has confirmed "they are actively looking into adding disabled Sims into the game, but they seem cautious and want to do it properly, which I believe is a good thing." Unless you already knew about this?

This would be great but I don't see any mention of this in the article linked or hear it in the podcast within the article so I'm a bit confused as to what you are referencing?

Disabled Sims are a difficult issue to tackle. Just imagine the bad press it will garner when players (or journos) do to disabled Sims what they already did for 20 years to every other Sim in existence. Like, setting them on fire, selling the ladder-out of the pool, entomb a Sim to make him starve, etc.
You don't see at a glance if the Sim that was set on fire was straight or LGBTQ+, but when the picture displays a Sim in a wheelchair getting set on fire...

No disrespect meant to you personally at all as clearly your concern comes from the right place however I think it is ultimately misplaced and this general view ends up giving the Sims team a plausible excuse to just not.

Besides, surely the things that you describe are essentially just simulated cruelty? In that case the issue is more "why is it fine to want to do that to anything, even pixels in a video game" rather than "where is the line between who we can and can't starve or set fire to for our own amusement". And indeed on the other hand and without applying intent from the player, "why is it funny when my sim accidentally sets fire to themselves cooking macaroni and why wouldn't it be funny if my disabled sim does exactly the same thing?".

I personally don't think we should avoid adding important things that encourage diversity for one group of people to simply pander to the possibility of hate in another. Instead in this context we should simply shut hate down quickly and sternly as and when we find it.

Fail states would have to be altered or removed for sure. It could be something like, "Because you traverse through the world more aware of obstacles, your actions are more intentions, thus ensuring 100% success for certain actions."

I'm not sure why. Surely a much more interesting internal thought process or perhaps external conversation happens when able bodied people are presented with the realities, challenges and outright absurdities that all too often present themselves when you are living with a disability?

The most telling thing for me was that the only real acknowledgement of disability in an interview celebrating diversity was the thought from the Sims producer about how people who had been in an accident and were unfortunately temporarily disabled used the Sims as escapism when they were unable to do the things they usually do.

Now that is a perfectly fine statement in and of itself, hell, I understand it myself as my better half and I long for the days that VR becomes more accessible so we might be able to finally visit or in some cases re-visit places we will never be able to get to now. What sticks in my craw a little about it though is that the conversation they are having before and after this specific comment is about people exploring other versions of themselves yet at no point did anyone take the next step here and wonder out loud if it would be interesting for an able-bodied person to experience life from what would be to them the very different perspective of being differently able.

Ah well, it is what it is I guess. As Stephen Frost said and Rod Fergusson recently referenced, "unless you consciously include, you will unconsciously exclude".

Ultimately, I think I will absolutely celebrate the achievements of the good folks behind the Sims when it comes to pushing boundaries. Frankly, it's quite astonishing how far they have come and how much they have simply done, without any real fanfare, to increase the diversity and inclusiveness of video games. I just won't forget to not let them rest on their laurels quite yet, there's still plenty more people to be and places to see.

Anyway, have a great day/evening/night everyone and apologies for the verbosity, long day!
 

Deleted member 7883

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This would be great but I don't see any mention of this in the article linked or hear it in the podcast within the article so I'm a bit confused as to what you are referencing?

It's behind a hyperlink in the OP.

www.vice.com

'The Sims' Has Always Been a Pioneer of Diversity and Inclusion

Executive producer and general manager Lyndsay Pearson talks to us about keeping the game welcoming.

Oooor not? Wtf. I swear when I made that post they talked about disabled sims being the next goalpost. So much for me calling out that other poster not reading the article. This is embarrassing šŸ™ƒ

I believe this is the article I grabbed that from. Note that it is almost a year old and we still haven't seen any progress yet... soooo idk.

themighty.com

Why We Need Disability Representation in 'The Sims 4'

"'Sims 4' is a game about life, and although it has fantasy elements to it like vampires, disabled people are nowhere to be seen."
 

Ted

Member
Oct 25, 2017
431
-72.290091, 0.795254
Oooor not? Wtf. I swear when I made that post they talked about disabled sims being the next goalpost. So much for me calling out that other poster not reading the article. This is embarrassing šŸ™ƒ

I believe this is the article I grabbed that from. Note that it is almost a year old and we still haven't seen any progress yet... soooo idk.

No problem. It happens.

For clarity, that article sources another article which in turn is based on some tweets from a member of the dev team. I've seen them before and from the tone they feel like they come from the right place. It also sounds like the idea is still being thought through at a conceptual level though so I'm not expecting results immediately but I'd love to see it all turn out well in the end.
 

Arkaign

Member
Nov 25, 2017
1,991
Despite EA, I have a solid amount of respect for the Sims. I wish I enjoyed playing it, but after a short time with each version, a few hours at most I can't stand it. It feels like work to me, with no purpose, which sort of makes me feel existential dread lol, if you scale back that philosophy to my own supposed existence and total irrelevance. I like watching people play it that love it though, like LGR etc.

I also loved that weird Sims movie with Ryan Reynolds. Nine. Nine. Nine. Nine. Nine.