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oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,014
UK
I find it hard to believe there won't at least be a push for PS1-PS3 titles over Now.

I suppose it's getting easier for people to emulate PS1/PS2 on PC, you don't even need a powerhouse PC to get those games running well

I can emulate PS1 games pretty well on a Pi3, the Pi5 when it comes out will probably be able to do PS2

A lot of the better PS3 games have been remastered on PS4 or remade

So people will still play their older games, only a lot of people will just pirate them because that becomes the easiest way to play PS1/PS2 games as discs get harder to find

This is why even if it's not a huge earner for Sony, they should try and get PS1/PS2 games on sale, because there is a demand for them, even if it's only a smaller group of enthusiasts. They might as well make some money from it, seeing as people will be playing their PS1/PS2 games anyway
 

Belthazar90

Banned
Jun 3, 2019
4,316
I don't think they "don't care". It's more like: Sony focuses on other stuff than BC for pre-current gen consoles. Stuff they deem far more important than that.
Offering PS5 exclusives right off the bat might be an example. And if the current hype level around PS5 is any indication, they probably bet on the right horse.

That's basically it, their resources are allocated where it matters the most for the majority of the userbase.
 

mute

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,062
It's pretty bullshit.

I also don't get the warm and fuzzies about all the possible "ps5 patches" going out to games recently.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,756
It seems a bit strange to crucify Sony for this, considering the first time I remember anything being backwards compatible was the PS2, and then when I bought my PS3, it was compatible with PS2 AND PS1; PS4 is really when the wheels fell off, and now they are full BC again with PS5.

BC existed long before the PS2 though. The Genesis/Mega Drive and Game Gear both had adapters that let you play Master System games, the SNES had the Super Game Boy, and I'm fairly sure Amiga/Atari/Commodore other home computers also had varying degrees of BC.

Anyway, I'd love it if the PS5 had at least. PS1 and PS2 BC, but it is what it is. So my PS3s aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
 

Mona

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
26,151
quantum computing is less power than the cell

im a huge fan of legacy content though, so for me sony screwed the pooch
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,014
UK
I've never owned an Xbox before, but I'm interested in the Series S just because I can get Gamepass for 6 months and play a ton of the best Xbox games from the last 20 years, insane value
 

gifyku

Member
Aug 17, 2020
2,739
The Vice author wrote a long article that ends up with him talking about how he has a PS3, PS4, Vita and nintendo systems. MS has done a lot for BC but that hasn't led to much apart from some favorable press.

At the end of the day, if consumers dont value something with their wallet, no point expecting corporations to do something out of the kindness of their hearts.
 

Grimmy11

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,764
Then why haven't Microsoft release an all-encompassing solution for Xbox and Xbox 360 emulation on X1 and XSX/S? At this point only a fraction of both libraries are available for play. There are clearly licensing complications that we are unaware of in making the games available in a new system.

That's true, I am curious as to how PS5/Series X can play pretty much all current gen games including delisted ones but 360 games seem to need game by game agreements even if they aren't adding enhancements. I guess it's something to do with Microsoft modifying the games slightly and playing a digital copy even if it's a physical disc.
 

asmith906

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,354
The Vice author wrote a long article that ends up with him talking about how he has a PS3, PS4, Vita and nintendo systems. MS has done a lot for BC but that hasn't led to much apart from some favorable press.

At the end of the day, if consumers dont value something with their wallet, no point expecting corporations to do something out of the kindness of their hearts.
I don't know how you can say BC hasn't gotten MS favorable press. BC is the main selling point of the system atm.

Could you imagine how bad of a position the XSX would be in without BC
 

chrominance

Sky Van Gogh
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,575
I'll preface this by saying that I think Sony closing down the PS3/Vita/etc. webstore sucks, and represents the beginning of the end for not only those platforms but the library of PS1, PS2 and PSP classics that will also soon have no place to call home. (Some PS2 classics run on PS4, but the library of PS2 classics on PS3 and PS2 ports on PS4 are mutually exclusive as far as I know.)

I kind of get why Sony's doing this. it definitely doesn't do much for their bottom line, and yeah I guess don't rely on Sony to keep these things alive for us blah blah blah. But that means the people who do care are caught in that terrible valley between "financially lucrative enough to put energy into selling" and "financially dead enough to give away for free." There's clearly some value in continuing to provide access to and sell PS3, Vita, etc. games, but no value to Sony in trying to either update that infrastructure to work with the modern systems they're setting up for PS5, or making that infrastructure work with the legacy games in such a way that allows them to remain active on the webstore.

But Microsoft has a similar problem: 360 games are stuck on an older webstore separate from the Xbox One webstore. They didn't close down the 360 webstore, and at this point it's pretty obvious either Microsoft's going to leave it in place or put in the work to migrate everything over, because it would be ridiculous to make backwards compatibility such a big part of your pitch for the next generation of Xboxes and then remove a key method of buying those games. Sony has made a decision to actively decommission their infrastructure. And you can say they've got good reasons for doing so--they want to concentrate on PS5, the old infrastructure is shit (I don't know but I've seen that cited as a common reason), nobody's buying those games anymore anyways, etc. But they still made the decision, and I still get to be unhappy with it.

Long story short, I've been busy trying to dump my PS3 games in preparation for an eventual PSN shutdown on PS3, and doing the same for Vita as well. Because we are very close to seeing what happens when your digital library is made obsolete because no active platform supports it anymore, with the PSP. Will they shut down the download list functionality on the PSP after they sunset PSN access on the Vita and PS3, which are the only two methods of buying PSP games now? And obviously, what happens to Vita and PS3 at that point? Storing a big library of PSP games isn't so bad, but PS3 and Vita games are quite a bit larger and in the case of the Vita, your options for storage are extremely limited.

I don't think they "don't care". It's more like: Sony focuses on other stuff than BC for pre-current gen consoles. Stuff they deem far more important than that.
Offering PS5 exclusives right off the bat might be an example. And if the current hype level around PS5 is any indication, they probably bet on the right horse.

I mean, this is functionally equivalent to "they don't care."
 

Richter1887

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
39,146
Sony are really disappointing with this.

I don't mind PS2 and PS1 as those can be played easily on PC but PS3 and Vita? Those are the ones that need backwards compatibility. The Vita has tons of gems on it like Killzone Mercenary and a bunch others. Same goes to the PS3 which has games that would benefit a lot from better hardware (Resistance 3 is the first one that came to mind).

If they could have a team to make it they would find a way. That I am sure of. They got the documents and the secrets already so it should be even easier to do compared to the people working on Emulators for the PC.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,014
UK
I've not kept up to date on gaming news this week, have they confirmed the PS3/Vita stores are being closed down, and if so, when?

Or is it all rumours still currently?
 

SkoomaBlade

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,052
Sony definitely deserves some criticism. How they don't have at the very least PS1 emulation is beyond me. Arguments can certainly be made for the difficulty in PS3 emulation but the same can't be said for the rest of their legacy systems. I can't imagine it being either difficult or costly to implement PS1, PS2, or PSP emulation on the PS5.
 

TsuWave

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,978
Yep. Sony's complete and utter lack of regard for their history (unless they can pay someone like Bluepoint a lot of money to put a shiny-ass filter over it and charge full price,

I know people give you a hard time and I think I've seen people referring to you as a black hole for negativity, but this is such a bad post. Like godamn.
 

MrDoctor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
375
USA
Do you complain to Panasonic that your Hitchcock VHS tapes don't work on their 4K player? No, you hang on to your VHS player or you wait until Dial M for Murder releases on UHD Blu Ray, or just buy a DVD or something. Because it's not up to Panasonic.

Kind of a dumb analogy
i don't complain because classic cinema is actually well-preserved and widely available in the highest quality for the most part. the biggest importance of bc is so those games aren't forever lost to time when hardware fails. also, dvd is a decades old format that remains compatible with modern devices. are you going to argue that everyone wouldn't be pissed if their entire dvd libraries(hell, throw in standard blu-rays) were suddenly invalidated? sure it happened with vhs, but that didn't remain relevant for as long as dvd has after hd displays became standard.
 
Oct 30, 2017
8,706
I was talking about Wii U not Wii. You're basically seeing a repeat of those arguments but applied to Sony with "I have to pay to play the upgraded Spider-Man?!" Wii U was 99% BC with Wii at no extra charge and neither Xbox nor PS4 had any BC at that time. It used all your controllers and people complained it was too confusing and they should have just dumped the features and made it more powerful instead. They don't have Microsoft's resources so they did it in a way they could.

And it's really weird seeing people trying to claim Sony is generally better than Nintendo while not listing Nintendo's portables.
I don't really think the Wii U's problems were it's confusing backward compatibility. The BC seemed like one of the highlighting features of the system.
Especially when modded for GC games.

I think more people complained about the gamepad jacking up the price of the system. Because yeah, at $350 in 2012, it was barely outperforming (and in some cases worse performance) a $399 console that launched in 2005.

I think the Wii U's small form factor, price, and game pad were it's detractors from it achieving better visuals. Not the backward compatibility implementation.
 

Green

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,409
I don't think they "don't care". It's more like: Sony focuses on other stuff than BC for pre-current gen consoles. Stuff they deem far more important than that.
Offering PS5 exclusives right off the bat might be an example. And if the current hype level around PS5 is any indication, they probably bet on the right horse.

It's not that they don't care, it's that their care is placed everywhere except BC.

lol
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,484
I know people give you a hard time and I think I've seen people referring to you as a black hole for negativity, but this is such a bad post. Like godamn.

Sony's whole mentality with legacy content seems to be "if we can't charge $60 for it, we don't care about it". They don't care about preservation or archival, they just care about whatever they can convert into something that looks like a AAA modern game so they can sell it for full price all over again.

Meaning the overwhelming majority of games that Sony's leadership doesn't deem as "worthy" for the AAAmake treatment just rot in obscurity until they're literally no longer playable.
 

Deleted member 16657

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,198
I mean this was always happening after remasters and remakes became easy money last gen. There's no point in giving people the option to play the old game.
 

Menchi

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,138
UK
I expect it's like the article says - people care more about the new and shiny games and don't see why you'd need to play older titles. I don't really agree with it at all, but it's definitely a common sentiment. Personally it's one of the things pushing me to buying a Series S or X.

Yeah, that's probably my best guess too. It is strange how you sometimes end up seeing call out for remasters/remakes from those same people though :/
 

OSHAN

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,931
BC existed long before the PS2 though. The Genesis/Mega Drive and Game Gear both had adapters that let you play Master System games, the SNES had the Super Game Boy, and I'm fairly sure Amiga/Atari/Commodore other home computers also had varying degrees of BC.

Anyway, I'd love it if the PS5 had at least. PS1 and PS2 BC, but it is what it is. So my PS3s aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

OH yeah, I had all those chunky add-ons. I guess I was thinking more same machine, no add-ons, I put the old game in, and it works. No idea if the PS2 was a first for that.
 
Oct 29, 2017
7,500
But Microsoft has a similar problem: 360 games are stuck on an older webstore separate from the Xbox One webstore. They didn't close down the 360 webstore, and at this point it's pretty obvious either Microsoft's going to leave it in place or put in the work to migrate everything over, because it would be ridiculous to make backwards compatibility such a big part of your pitch for the next generation of Xboxes and then remove a key method of buying those games. Sony has made a decision to actively decommission their infrastructure. And you can say they've got good reasons for doing so--they want to concentrate on PS5, the old infrastructure is shit (I don't know but I've seen that cited as a common reason), nobody's buying those games anymore anyways, etc. But they still made the decision, and I still get to be unhappy with it.

Backwards compatible 360 games have been migrated to the new MS Store website and you can buy them there.

Buy Fallout 3 | Xbox

Vault-Tec engineers have worked around the clock on an interactive reproduction of Wasteland life for you to enjoy from the comfort of your own vault. Fallout 3 includes an expansive world, unique combat, shockingly realistic visuals, tons of player choice, and an incredible cast of dynamic...
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,747
I don't really think the Wii U's problems were it's confusing backward compatibility. The BC seemed like one of the highlighting features of the system.
Especially when modded for GC games.

I think more people complained about the gamepad jacking up the price of the system. Because yeah, at $350 in 2012, it was barely outperforming (and in some cases worse performance) a $399 console that launched in 2005.

I think the Wii U's small form factor, price, and game pad were it's detractors from it achieving better visuals. Not the backward compatibility implementation.
There were lots of issues with the Wii U, but people absolutely complained about the BC. Back on gaf it was often called anti-consumer and it drove me fucking nuts.
 

CorpseLight

Member
Nov 3, 2018
7,666
As someone who still owns their PS3 and Vita, I agree. Sony needs to have their feet held to the fire for a lot of the decisions they have made lately.
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,124
Chile
My stance is that it's about as reasonable to demand Sony do more with BC as it is to demand that Microsoft invest in VR and support it with the Xbox Series S and X. Now I'm sure we can pick bones about whether these are really equivalent, but I think they more or less are. They are of interest to a relatively small number, they are expensive to develop, and there is significant opportunity cost. Jim Ryan has said that he doesn't think people care about BC and Phil Spencer has said he doesn't see VR as a priority. I can absolutely understand why people find these things disappointing... but they are part and parcel of how these companies want to direct their businesses. There are pros and cons to both of these platforms and people have to come to terms with that.

Sony don't seem to think that expanded backwards compatibility is worth it. Perhaps they're wrong. But if they are right? Very hard to be outraged about it.

I don't think it's really comparable. VR asks from the consumer to invest more, on equipment, compatible games, even the room itself. BC is about keeping the value of what you already own. It even is a bit "eco friendly" since it gives the media longer longevity.

Maybe from a corporate perspective they are alike, but I don't think so either. VR is an investment so it makes more sense. As a consumer I care more about the consumer pov anyway though :P
 

Siinova

Member
Oct 29, 2017
635
I may be totally off base with this but I kind of feel like them trying to address the PS1 and PS2 preservation on PS3 really messed things up for future preservation on those platforms.

They were decently active with it during that time and seemingly tried to bring back a number of games for PS2 and PS1 while others were remastered.

Doing this on PS3 kind of locked away the work they did on that platform however due to the architecture differences.

It looks like they tried this again on PS4, even going a step further by updating the games but, they likely weren't as committed to pouring the resources into it again.

Had some of this effort been made on PS4 instead of PS3 maybe we'd have more games preserved since their work would likely carry forward to PS5.

This is all assuming there isn't more to their preservation plan for legacy titles than we are aware of at this time.

Edit: Replaced BC with preservation as that fits more with what I'm speaking to.
 
Oct 31, 2017
8,613
Yeah, one of the main reasons why I never bought a PS4 until now is the lack of BC.

There's really no reason for my PS Classics to not be available on PS4!
 

Shining Star

Banned
May 14, 2019
4,458
Console manufacturers aren't invested in so-called "legacy content." The margins are slim, the interest is substantially lower than the mass market interest in New Shit.
And we've basically accepted this. Sony doesn't need to include backwards compatibility to sell PS5s. The bid didn't work with the PS3 in the end. And full price remasters of old games have proven much more profitable on the PS4 than the slim sales numbers of so-called "legacy content" ever could.

I mean...this is true isn't it? it's not some lie that we've accepted. Most people don't care about playing old games on their new system and there's not much reason for them to do it.
 

Bitch Pudding

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,202
It's not that they don't care, it's that their care is placed everywhere except BC.
You simply confuse "resources" with "care", there's this new thing called limited resources almost any company without an unlimited war chest has to deal with. Those companies are dealing with this by focusing resources in things which actually matter to their customers. If those customers would prefer BC above anything else, then Sony would have offered it. But they simply don't. They want some new shiny games for their new toy and that's what Sony delivers day 1.
 

SpaceCrystal

Banned
Apr 1, 2019
7,714
I'm probably one of the biggest PS supporters you'll meet, but the way Sony has treated the Vita and PS3 is shameful.

Even though 3ds has been continued Nintendo of all companies continue to treat the Wii U and 3ds way better than Sony does with PS3 and Vita.

Nintendo still to this day has great sales on the 3ds. I've bought more games from the 3ds eshop this year alone since I've done since I got the system at launch.

The only Vita game you will see on sale is one that happens to be cross buy with the ps4 version. It's not just that Sony wants to kill their legacy consoles it's like they want to actively punish their customers for investing in those ecosystems.

Also look at how little care Sony put into the PS1 mini. PS1 is probably my favorite console of all time but I can't even play that system because not only is the selection of games not great, how the actual software runs is abysmal. Who the hell greenlit pal games in the year 2020.

And the irony of PS Classic? They used an open-sourced emulator made by fans themselves to run the games with (called PCSX ReArmed).
 

lunanto

Banned
Dec 1, 2017
7,648
Sony doesn´t give a f about BC and old games. I think this is generally accepted at this point.

I think they have put PS4 BC on PS5 just because if not the backlash would have been epic.
 

chrominance

Sky Van Gogh
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,575
Backwards compatible 360 games have been migrated to the new MS Store website and you can buy them there.

Buy Fallout 3 | Xbox

Vault-Tec engineers have worked around the clock on an interactive reproduction of Wasteland life for you to enjoy from the comfort of your own vault. Fallout 3 includes an expansive world, unique combat, shockingly realistic visuals, tons of player choice, and an incredible cast of dynamic...

Oh, weird. Because I was looking at this page and it's still using the old store interface:

https://marketplace.xbox.com/en-CA/...wDIRaKI-vnQVc8dvlFelqh4_frwJfqs6yU&noSplash=1
 

Roliq

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Sep 23, 2018
6,177
Money and resources are not infinite. Every dollar spent on BC is a dollar not spent on new games.
lol, This is not how it works if you somehow believe that ports would take the same requires as a new game you must sure be confused about how ports are being created because money is like the least of the problems that Sony has
 

Green

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,409
You simply confuse "resources" with "care", there's this new thing called limited resources almost any company without an unlimited war chest has to deal with. Those companies are dealing with this by focusing resources in things which actually matter to their customers. If those customers would prefer BC above anything else, then Sony would have offered it. But they simply don't. They want some new shiny games for their new toy and that's what Sony delivers day 1.

So you're saying it's not that they don't care it's that they can't afford it?
 
Oct 29, 2017
7,500

Belthazar90

Banned
Jun 3, 2019
4,316
Yeah, one of the main reasons why I never bought a PS4 until now is the lack of BC.

There's really no reason for my PS Classics to not be available on PS4!

Those games were licensed for use on the PS3, they can't make them available on PS4 without entering in an agreement with the publishers and making their first party titles would end up in another headache with only a fraction of the purchased games being carried forward.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,957
Germany
Once the PS6 has enough power to emulate PS3 games on an open-source emulator that Sony can just snatch off the internet, they'll gladly sell you PS3 games again in a badly maintained, special "retro" section of their store.
 

Scottoest

Member
Feb 4, 2020
11,321
Almost brings a tear to your eye, seeing how empathetic and understanding people are about business concerns at the expense of their own. Not all heroes wear capes.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
You simply confuse "resources" with "care", there's this new thing called limited resources almost any company without an unlimited war chest has to deal with. Those companies are dealing with this by focusing resources in things which actually matter to their customers. If those customers would prefer BC above anything else, then Sony would have offered it. But they simply don't. They want some new shiny games for their new toy and that's what Sony delivers day 1.
I'm not sure customers need to want it "above anything else" to get a decent BC plan and see it executed. And to say customers don't care...I don't recall a poll being taken to ask me if I thought it was important or not. Did you take part?
 

StereoVSN

Member
Nov 1, 2017
13,620
Eastern US
Sony are really disappointing with this.

I don't mind PS2 and PS1 as those can be played easily on PC but PS3 and Vita? Those are the ones that need backwards compatibility. The Vita has tons of gems on it like Killzone Mercenary and a bunch others. Same goes to the PS3 which has games that would benefit a lot from better hardware (Resistance 3 is the first one that came to mind).

If they could have a team to make it they would find a way. That I am sure of. They got the documents and the secrets already so it should be even easier to do compared to the people working on Emulators for the PC.
Yeah, PS3 and Vita, especially the latter, are basically in the most danger. Also, patches/DLCs aren't easy to get to emulate and there is no Vita emulator anyways. Sony's stance sucks, which is quite sad considering rich library of content on their systems.