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shotopunx

Member
Nov 21, 2017
1,588
Dublin, Ireland
I think it's valid to bring up, but his daughter died too and it just seems in poor taste. I get it though. Bring it up. Just don't try to be edgy and shrug off his death. Like a lot of people here don't believe in the death penalty even when someone kills a dozen children. So why go around picking fights over his death?

I wasn't a big fan of his and back in the day I sided with the victim (still do). It should remain a stain on his legacy. And yet, it seems unfair to only focus on that because it appears to be an isolated incident. Maybe he changed after that? Who knows.


It's not about shrugging off his death, it's about the lack of respect we give to victims in these situations. In the last few days, the victim would have to see people falling all over themselves to celebrate and practically canonise Bryant. I empathise greatly with how small and powerless that could make one feel.

In addition to this, sexual assault should not be reduced to "time and a place" rules on when its appropriate to be discussed. This attitude will only serve to silence more voices.
 

Deleted member 6949

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,786
He did that shit and got away with it and people who are shutting down conversation about it have zero integrity. You sound like Republicans after a school shooting. nOw Is ThE tImE fOr ThOuGhTs AnD pRaYeRs AnD nOtHiNg ElSe.
 
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steejee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,604
I feel for the family and friends of innocent people that lost their lives (especially the kids of the mom/dad who died), but to me Kobe was just another big celebrity who got away with something awful and never displayed true remorse for it.

I didn't want to post in the main thread just because it was essentially a memorial thread after a little bit and I'm not going to memorialize such a person.
 

Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,835
I think it can be a hard thing to reconcile that a person can do great things while also being a piece of shit in other ways. The truth is that it's a bit of both, but it can be a hard thing to accept.
 

CaviarMeths

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,655
Western Canada
Why are all these banned posts like 90% identical... time and place, time and place, time and place. Damn, you all passing around rape apologia cue cards or what? Trying to shut down conversation on reset era dot com ain't much better than harassing journalists on Twitter. End goal is to make people stop talking about a miscarriage of justice.

Protip, if you call someone out about being disingenuous in a thread about rape and it turns out it's about The Last Jedi via DMs, don't ever talk to me again.
Lmfao.

I'm sorry, I know this is a sensitive thread, but lol.
 

karmaforgotme

Member
Oct 27, 2017
893
Knoxville, TN
I am slightly surprised how many defenders Kobe has on Resetera. These are the same people that overwhelming preached 'believe her' when it came to Kavanaugh (there is by far more evidence against Kobe than there was ever against Kavanaugh), but they are now claming there is a time and place or other people died be respectful. I promise you if Kavanaugh was on that helicopter, the first thing they would have said was 'good riddance'. Hypocrites. I hate to even use Kavanaugh as an example, but I look at him no different than Kobe.

If only Kavanaugh was good at basketball...
 

FormatCompatible

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,071
The harassment over reporters talking about his rape accusation is horrible and disgusting, and the people doing that and excusing rape in general are just trash. Personally I didn't know much about Kobe Bryant aside from knowing a bit about his fame as a basketball player (through a good friend who is crazy about the sport), so I wasn't aware of the rape accusation, and was dismayed to learn his daughter was with him when the accident happened.

Reading and learning about what happened on the case was shocking and sickening, and reminded me again of how much fame and fortune can shield people from credible accusations. And reading a bunch of the posts in this thread from some people (who even after a mod warning still keep doing the same thing) sadly reinforced that notion.
 

Rover

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,414
I am slightly surprised how many defenders Kobe has on Resetera. These are the same people that overwhelming preached 'believe her' when it came to Kavanaugh (there is by far more evidence against Kobe than there was ever against Kavanaugh), but they are now claming there is a time and place or other people died be respectful. I promise you if Kavanaugh was on that helicopter, the first thing they would have said was 'good riddance'. Hypocrites. I hate to even use Kavanaugh as an example, but I look at him no different than Kobe.

If only Kavanaugh was good at basketball...

This is a bad comparison because Kavanaugh is someone threatening to regressively shape US policy for decades. He is not likeable by default.
 

Yopis

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,767
East Coast
User banned (3 months): Ignoring staff post, dismissing allegations of sexual assault with victim blaming and whataboutism
Don't remember Vice putting articles out about Paul Walker and underage girls after his death. Seems this is different wonder why.

Also why did the victim take the settlement? They were from well off family. History can't be erased all parts of legacy can be reviewed.

People will remember what they want in the end. Kobe won't be here to defend himself anymore.
 

dennett316

Member
Nov 2, 2017
2,979
Blackpool, UK
Don't remember Vice putting articles out about Paul Walker and underage girls after his death. Seems this is different wonder why.

Also why did the victim take the settlement? They were from well off family. History can't be erased all parts of legacy can be reviewed.

People will remember what they want in the end. Kobe won't be here to defend himself anymore.
This is kinda shameful...might want to edit it, because wow. That's a super shitty take.
 

Deleted member 17402

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,125
This is kinda shameful...might want to edit it, because wow. That's a super shitty take.
Why should they edit it? Clearly you disagree with it and they said their opinion. What good does it do to hide yourself from shit you don't like seeing others say?

And yes I do agree that taking a settlement even if you're well off means jack shit. Not sure what that has to do with the incident itself, so it was a dumb thing for that poster to bring up.
 

viskod

Member
Nov 9, 2017
4,396
I don't watch basketball and I certainly wouldn't describe any player as some kind of "hero" but I think the problem a lot of these people ran into is their methodology was counterproductive to their end goal.

I also think that when remembering the legacies of people like Bryant that its important not to sweep things like this under the rug. But when all you do is tweet out that he's a rapist, or just tweet a link to an old article about the case immediately when the news is breaking of his passing that's not going make people objectively consider everything about the man, it's going to make people do the opposite out of the notion that what you did was in poor taste.

That's just how our society is, whatever that says about our society.

Context, tone, and timing matter in something like this. Especially the context around Bryant's death. If Kobe had just died himself, it would probably be a little different. But he died in a horrific fiery crash with one of his daughters and 7 other people including other children. A tragedy like this grants the person extra immunity to criticism warranted or not, that's just how it is.

I'm not saying it's right, but that's reality. And if you want people to keep his rape case in mind when remembering him, if you want that to be something people think about when they remember him, you have got to be smarter than just tweeting "he was a rapist" right when the news is breaking because that doesn't sound like someone who genuinely thinks this is important to remember, that makes you sound like a pedantic shit stirrer that just wants to incite a reaction.

People are complicated and it is entirely possible that Bryant could be both a person who raped a girl in 2003 and also someone who upon reflection on that changed as a person and by all accounts was a loving husband and father in the 17 years since. If you want people to remember his rape case, if you don't want that swept under the rug, you are going to have to acknowledge the tragic circumstances surrounding his death for what they were and follow by saying its important to remember he was charged with rape even if the prosecution dropped the charges.
 

viskod

Member
Nov 9, 2017
4,396
Don't remember Vice putting articles out about Paul Walker and underage girls after his death. Seems this is different wonder why.

Also why did the victim take the settlement? They were from well off family. History can't be erased all parts of legacy can be reviewed.

People will remember what they want in the end. Kobe won't be here to defend himself anymore.

She took the settlement because the prosecution dropped the charges. That settlement in civil court was the closest thing to justice she was going to get.
 

dennett316

Member
Nov 2, 2017
2,979
Blackpool, UK
Why should they edit it? Clearly you disagree with it and they said their opinion. What good does it do to hide yourself from shit you don't like seeing others say?

And yes I do agree that taking a settlement even if you're well off means jack shit. Not sure what that has to do with the incident itself, so it was a dumb thing for that poster to bring up.
I meant edit it for their own benefit, how did you get to the bold from that? I already saw it, how would it be hiding it from myself?
 

Deleted member 17402

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,125
I meant edit it for their own benefit, how did you get to the bold from that? I already saw it, how would it be hiding it from myself?
Ah okay. Well what good would it do to edit for their own benefit as well? That's why I didn't assume you meant that because if that's their opinion, why would they edit it to say anything else?
 

karmaforgotme

Member
Oct 27, 2017
893
Knoxville, TN
This is a bad comparison because Kavanaugh is someone threatening to regressively shape US policy for decades. He is not likeable by default.

Trust me I hate to be even using his name. That said they are both people who used their privilege enough to get away with sexual assault. Why should they be treated differently? My point is more of how can one claim they support the #metoo movement and speak out against Kavanaugh, but give Kobe a free pass after what he did? While Kavanaugh might be able to do even more damage on the Supreme Court, it doesn't change what Kobe has in common with him.
 

Kurtikeya

One Winged Slayer
Member
Dec 2, 2017
4,439
Okay, so we've established/are establishing that he did rape a girl. Not just accused of, not just alleged to have done so, but that he actually did it.

Then what? Are we just going to keep drilling that to people who are mourning him and who will continue to mourn and remember him, especially when he gets enshrined into the Basketball Hall of Fame? Are we going to keep saying it until we hear from his victim and absolutely confirm that she's still suffering/has healed/is pissed that he's being grieved, etc? What if she doesn't want to break her silence to strangers like us, for any reason whatsoever?

I'm not insinuating that it's pointless to bring the dark fact up. It's not. But this same stain on his legacy will inevitably manifest itself yet again when he gets inducted into the HoF, when a year has passed and the world or at least the NBA will remember the occasion and therefore the fact that he died, when/if the Lakers win the title and they inevitably bring him up. Again we'll talk about it and be mad about it and and sift through it and stuff. But what are we supposed to do besides bringing it up when he gets commemorated or hoping that the victim is in a better place? As much as we may want to, we just can't ask those survived by him to relinquish the power he's amassed, or to use it to help people similar to the one he wronged. I apologize if such a question makes me come off as uninformed but it's a sincere question. Because I tried to bring my own victimiser to justice but it didn't get me anywhere but a sense of betrayal and defeat. But I try not to think about him anymore. It's not worth it for me to remind mutuals that he assaulted me if they bring him up.

I remember when Chris Paul forgave his grandfather's killer, and he got flak for it by some Redditors, like it wasn't the right decision, like it wasn't his decision to do so, like he was failing humanity by doing so. Similarly, a poet I follow wrote about her trauma, released a book of essays about it, and is now being pressured on a constant basis to talk about it by well-meaning people when she doesn't really want to. If these victims have spoken up and aren't allowed to have the final say, what are we, as the concerned, supposed to do?
 

dennett316

Member
Nov 2, 2017
2,979
Blackpool, UK
Ah okay. Well what good would it do to edit for their own benefit as well? That's why I didn't assume you meant that because if that's their opinion, why would they edit it to say anything else?
I don't get your confusion. It was a shitty attempt to attack the character of a rape victim. People edit shit out of comments they've made in anger on this forum all the time...people reflect on what they've said and decide it was inappropriate or questionable. That's all I meant, that they might want to edit that shit, because it had nothing to do with their implication that Vice were being racist in mentioning Kobe's past but not Paul Walker's.
 

Deleted member 17402

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,125
I don't get your confusion. It was a shitty attempt to attack the character of a rape victim. People edit shit out of comments they've made in anger on this forum all the time...people reflect on what they've said and decide it was inappropriate or questionable. That's all I meant, that they might want to edit that shit, because it had nothing to do with their implication that Vice were being racist in mentioning Kobe's past but not Paul Walker's.
Okay I misunderstood you
 

Fiction

Fanthropologist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,727
Elf Tower, New Mexico
Don't remember Vice putting articles out about Paul Walker and underage girls after his death. Seems this is different wonder why.

Also why did the victim take the settlement? They were from well off family. History can't be erased all parts of legacy can be reviewed.

People will remember what they want in the end. Kobe won't be here to defend himself anymore.
Maybe actually read up on the case before showing your ass?
'Sure Kobe said he raped her but she took a settlement after her life was ruined even though she had some money already! She's lying obviously!'
 

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
Don't remember Vice putting articles out about Paul Walker and underage girls after his death. Seems this is different wonder why.

That was six years ago, long before MeToo raised more awareness about these things among the general public and the media, and I absolutely have seen articles about Paul Walker in years since, and they frequently got the same hostile reaction as the Kobe articles. Paul Walker actually has a similar defense force who will attack and harass anyone who brings up these allegations on social media.
 

Deleted member 9932

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,711
Okay, so we've established/are establishing that he did rape a girl. Not just accused of, not just alleged to have done so, but that he actually did it.

Then what? Are we just going to keep drilling that to people who are mourning him and who will continue to mourn and remember him, especially when he gets enshrined into the Basketball Hall of Fame? Are we going to keep saying it until we hear from his victim and absolutely confirm that she's still suffering/has healed/is pissed that he's being grieved, etc? What if she doesn't want to break her silence to strangers like us, for any reason whatsoever?

That's what happens when you commit heinous acts. Polanski also raped a woman, she already came forward saying she forgave him and you can bet almost anyone in this board will, rightfully so, call him what he is.

Turn on any tv in us, europe, asia, nobody is talking about Kobe as some kind of rapist. Nobody is drilling anything. This thread points an objective fact, some reporters during this canonization process of Kobe tried to remember he did a terrible thing in the past, suffered no consequences over it and they were harassed by pointing that out. The same exact thing happened on era, users were dogpilled, insulted and wished that they would die (and some of those users who actually pointed a fact, untactful or not, were actually banned by the mods). This is Kobe's legacy, the good and the bad. As far as I know he never really showed publicly any kind of remorse or made amendments with the act besides that settlement/public apology way back in 2005.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
I've been leaving this mostly alone, since now is a time of grief and I don't want to intentionally screw up anyone's mourning. People mean a lot to others for a lot of reasons and while I may not care for the man, I've said most of what I have to say in the past when it was a lot more relevant. Nine people dying is a tragedy and while I may not have had a lot of respect for one of them, it isn't like I wished death on him. I don't wish that on anyone who isn't actively causing terrible harm to others, and even those who are I'd prefer to just stop causing that harm. Even his death is sad, but death doesn't make saints of any of us and when it's time to tell someone's story, we should tell the true story.

While I wouldn't choose this moment to bring this up, I also won't tell those who choose to do so that they're wrong for doing so. I can empathize with his friends and family and fans who are mourning someone they loved, either up close or from afar. I can also empathize with those who find seeing an admitted rapist lionized nauseating.

I believe in second chances, and that people can learn and grow after mistakes, even after truly heinous ones. I don't support the death penalty for exactly that reason. I believe most any human life can have worth. There are some things that don't wash off though. There are some acts so despicable that they don't go away no matter how much good you later do. It doesn't mean your entire life is judged by only those things. It means that thing will always be part of your story though. If you kill someone and you get out and spend the next fifty years working with at risk kids to turn their lives around, that's awesome. When you die, we should talk about all the good work you did. We're going to talk about the murder too though. What you did was bad enough that you can't remove it from your narrative. It's going to be a part of your story and it should be. I'd consider rape one of those things. After that, all you can do is hope to do enough good that it's only part of the story instead of the whole thing.

In addition, I'll just say that in order to truly move toward growth, paying for what you did really should be the first step. I don't consider his statement admitting to it to truly be that because he issued that in large part to avoid going to jail, and he still spent a large portion of it trying to defend his actions. I also can't say cutting a check later on in the civil suit is really paying for it, not when you're that kind of rich. Really owning his mistakes would have been the first step and he never did that. I can understand why he didn't. Doing so could have made him a pariah and considering how easily the public had forgiven him it was a lot easier to just move on. That's kind of the point though.
Well stated.
 

PhaZe 5

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,444
I think the way it's been handled here on ERA is appropriate: a separate thread reminding people of Kobe's unsettling history, and a thread specifically not just about his death but the other 8 people that were traveling with him.
 
Nov 2, 2017
2,239
Are we going to keep saying it until we hear from his victim and absolutely confirm that she's still suffering/has healed/is pissed that he's being grieved, etc? What if she doesn't want to break her silence to strangers like us, for any reason whatsoever?

You say this like it's an option.

Those aren't options for her. The settlement includes a clause that requires her not to speak to the public. If she wanted to speak, if she wanted to say something about the fucking deification that's going on about someone who admitted to raping her, in order to do so she'd have to break the agreement and cause legal hell for herself.

It's fucking gross to take the silence that Kobe bought and then try to turn that into "well, maybe she just doesn't want talk about it".
 

Kurtikeya

One Winged Slayer
Member
Dec 2, 2017
4,439
That's what happens when you commit heinous acts. Polanski also raped a woman, she already came forward saying she forgave him and you can bet almost anyone in this board will, rightfully so, call him what he is.

Turn on any tv in us, europe, asia, nobody is talking about Kobe as some kind of rapist. Nobody is drilling anything. This thread points an objective fact, some reporters during this canonization process of Kobe tried to remember he did a terrible thing in the past, suffered no consequences over it and they were harassed by pointing that out. The same exact thing happened on era, users were dogpilled, insulted and wished that they would die (and some of those users who actually pointed a fact, untactful or not, were actually banned by the mods). This is Kobe's legacy, the good and the bad. As far as I know he never really showed publicly any kind of remorse or made amendments with the act besides that settlement/public apology way back in 2005.

I know that already, but you seemed to have glossed over the succeeding paragraphs. We will call him a rapist when he gets inducted into the Hall of Fame. We will call him that again if the Lakers win the title and they dedicate the win to him. But what else is there to do besides pointing it out? As my final paragraph touches upon, Chris Paul and a poet I'll not name out of respect are two victims who have spoken out and yet their words aren't allowed to be the final say, with CP even being dogpiled by some for forgiving his victimisers, like it's his decision and not theirs. What suffices as a final say for cases like this, besides actually cancelling them, considering that we unfortunately actually can't?

You say this like it's an option.

Those aren't options for her. The settlement includes a clause that requires her not to speak to the public. If she wanted to speak, if she wanted to say something about the fucking deification that's going on about someone who admitted to raping her, in order to do so she'd have to break the agreement and cause legal hell for herself.

It's fucking gross to take the silence that Kobe bought and then try to turn that into "well, maybe she just doesn't want talk about it".

I wasn't aware that it wasn't an option and I apologise for being uninformed. My statement came from reading about how people want to hear from her and how she feels about all this, so I thought that that was an option. Again, I'm sorry.

But it's also "fucking gross" to say that's what I'm getting at. If that's how it came across then yet again I apologise. But my question still stands, what can we do besides being disgusted when he inevitably gets honoured in the future?
 
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Chrome Hyena

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,768
User banned (1 month): Ignoring Staff Mod Post, Whataboutism, Dismissing Sexual Assault
Don't remember Vice putting articles out about Paul Walker and underage girls after his death. Seems this is different wonder why.

Also why did the victim take the settlement? They were from well off family. History can't be erased all parts of legacy can be reviewed.

People will remember what they want in the end. Kobe won't be here to defend himself anymore.

I know this is a predominantly white forum, so I'm sure this will go over like a lead balloon but we know why it's different. It's ridiculous that people don't seem to be able to even consider why some black people may take a sideways glance at this shit. It's not like there isn't a history in America of black men being completely fucked over and railroaded for even looking at white women. It's not like there is not real historical context for that shit even up to the present. So am I saying he was innocent? Of course not. I don't know I wasn't there, but I know about America's history when it comes to this kind of thing.

So yeah while this may be part of his legacy, Kobe meant a lot to the black community and black families, he did a lot for us, and so yeah we will mourn him and feel for him and his family. It has nothing to do with not caring about victims. So keep that white liberal talking point to yourself.
 

Fiction

Fanthropologist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,727
Elf Tower, New Mexico
I know that already, but you seemed to have glossed over the succeeding paragraphs. We will call him a rapist when he gets inducted into the Hall of Fame. We will call him that again if the Lakers win the title and they dedicate the win to him. But what else is there to do besides pointing it out? As my final paragraph touches upon, Chris Paul and a poet I'll not name out of respect are two victims who have spoken out and yet their words aren't allowed to be the final say, with CP even being dogpiled by some for forgiving his victimisers, like it's his decision and not theirs. What suffices as a final say for cases like this, besides actually cancelling them, considering that we unfortunately actually can't?



I wasn't aware that it wasn't an option and I apologise for being uninformed. But it's also "fucking gross" to say that's what I'm getting at. If that's how it came across then I'm sorry. But my question still stands, what can we do besides being disgusted when he inevitably gets honoured in the future?
The whole reason most are talking about this is the highlight these issues that persist on our culture in order to change them.
 

BAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,565
USA
Okay, so we've established/are establishing that he did rape a girl. Not just accused of, not just alleged to have done so, but that he actually did it.

Then what? Are we just going to keep drilling that to people who are mourning him and who will continue to mourn and remember him, especially when he gets enshrined into the Basketball Hall of Fame? Are we going to keep saying it until we hear from his victim and absolutely confirm that she's still suffering/has healed/is pissed that he's being grieved, etc? What if she doesn't want to break her silence to strangers like us, for any reason whatsoever?

I'm not insinuating that it's pointless to bring the dark fact up. It's not. But this same stain on his legacy will inevitably manifest itself yet again when he gets inducted into the HoF, when a year has passed and the world or at least the NBA will remember the occasion and therefore the fact that he died, when/if the Lakers win the title and they inevitably bring him up. Again we'll talk about it and be mad about it and and sift through it and stuff. But what are we supposed to do besides bringing it up when he gets commemorated or hoping that the victim is in a better place? As much as we may want to, we just can't ask those survived by him to relinquish the power he's amassed, or to use it to help people similar to the one he wronged. I apologize if such a question makes me come off as uninformed but it's a sincere question. Because I tried to bring my own victimiser to justice but it didn't get me anywhere but a sense of betrayal and defeat. But I try not to think about him anymore. It's not worth it for me to remind mutuals that he assaulted me if they bring him up.

I remember when Chris Paul forgave his grandfather's killer, and he got flak for it by some Redditors, like it wasn't the right decision, like it wasn't his decision to do so, like he was failing humanity by doing so. Similarly, a poet I follow wrote about her trauma, released a book of essays about it, and is now being pressured on a constant basis to talk about it by well-meaning people when she doesn't really want to. If these victims have spoken up and aren't allowed to have the final say, what are we, as the concerned, supposed to do?
I can't figure out if you are saying survivors should be quiet or if you want to police them for saying something that isn't pretty About his history while others want to comment heroic things nonstop about his history. There's a humongous thread where only fun facts about his legacy are allowed because they make him look good, while his admission of rape is not allowed at all. People are getting to deny this just fine.
 
Nov 2, 2017
2,239
I wasn't aware that it wasn't an option and I apologise for being uninformed. But it's also "fucking gross" to say that's what I'm getting at. If that's how it came across then I'm sorry. But my question still stands, what can we do besides being disgusted when he inevitably gets honoured in the future?

Remind people that this isn't about one night of behavior 17 years ago, it's about that night, plus the following two years of leading a character defamation campaign against the victim of a crime he's admitted to committing, plus the fact that he's kept the victim silenced for 15 years while using the same settlement as a shield for why he can't comment, so just move on to talking about literally anything else.

This is an incredibly defeatist attitude. You know how society changes, how we make sure that this stuff gets addressed? We make people think about the fact they're lionizing a rapist, a man who used his fame and fortune to violate a woman and then bully her into silence, an act that has gone on for over a decade and continues to this very day.

Do not let people act as if this was some thing that happened in the past and not an ongoing activity. Society will not just change on its own, it requires people to push it, and talking about this is how people push it. If you don't have the fight in you, if it's too much because of personal reasons, then that's fine, but nothing is going to change if people aren't pushing for better, for reminding people that his victim has been silenced and remains silenced because Kobe Bryant's estate wants to maintain that silence. Settlements like that aren't immutable, the enforced silence could be dropped with a simple agreement and Bryant has gotten public pressure over the years to drop that, and yet it continues. That's not some mistake from 17 years ago, that's his behavior that continued to the very end of his life and continues still now even after he's gone. Do not let people forget that, to comfortably elide that behavior and canonize him as a saint without thinking about it.
 

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,593
It happens when they are alive too. Wait for the defense force on that racist Gal Gadot when Wonder Woman 1984 drops.
Hell, Kobe Bryant got some of this too.

Remember when in the midst of all the #metoo stuff, Kobe won an Oscar for producing the egotrip known as Dear Basketball? And how the people that reported on this and tried to call out The Academy for their bullshit got shut down? Because I remember.
 

not_smiff

Member
Oct 31, 2017
958
User Banned (3 Months): Ignoring Staff Post. Dismissing Allegations of Sexual Assault. Whataboutism
Don't remember Vice putting articles out about Paul Walker and underage girls after his death. Seems this is different wonder why.

Also why did the victim take the settlement? They were from well off family. History can't be erased all parts of legacy can be reviewed.

People will remember what they want in the end. Kobe won't be here to defend himself anymore.
This. It's clear as day.
 

Kurtikeya

One Winged Slayer
Member
Dec 2, 2017
4,439
Remind people that this isn't about one night of behavior 17 years ago, it's about that night, plus the following two years of leading a character defamation campaign against the victim of a crime he's admitted to committing, plus the fact that he's kept the victim silenced for 15 years while using the same settlement as a shield for why he can't comment, so just move on to talking about literally anything else.

This is an incredibly defeatist attitude. You know how society changes, how we make sure that this stuff gets addressed? We make people think about the fact they're lionizing a rapist, a man who used his fame and fortune to violate a woman and then bully her into silence, an act that has gone on for over a decade and continues to this very day.

Do not let people act as if this was some thing that happened in the past and not an ongoing activity. Society will not just change on its own, it requires people to push it, and talking about this is how people push it. If you don't have the fight in you, if it's too much because of personal reasons, then that's fine, but nothing is going to change if people aren't pushing for better, for reminding people that his victim has been silenced and remains silenced because Kobe Bryant's estate wants to maintain that silence. Settlements like that aren't immutable, the enforced silence could be dropped with a simple agreement and Bryant has gotten public pressure over the years to drop that, and yet it continues. That's not some mistake from 17 years ago, that's his behavior that continued to the very end of his life and continues still now even after he's gone. Do not let people forget that, to comfortably elide that behavior and canonize him as a saint without thinking about it.

This, especially the emboldened, is what I wanted, and what I needed, to hear. It's giving something to think about my own moving forward process. Thank you so much and I'm sorry not only for being uninformed about the victim's inability to publicly voice out, but also if I came across as dismissive, dumb, offensive, or as you put it, fucking gross.
 
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Alavard

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,296
I know this is a predominantly white forum, so I'm sure this will go over like a lead balloon but we know why it's different. It's ridiculous that people don't seem to be able to even consider why some black people may take a sideways glance at this shit. It's not like there isn't a history in America of black men being completely fucked over and railroaded for even looking at white women. It's not like there is not real historical context for that shit even up to the present. So am I saying he was innocent? Of course not. I don't know I wasn't there, but I know about America's history when it comes to this kind of thing.

So yeah while this may be part of his legacy, Kobe meant a lot to the black community and black families, he did a lot for us, and so yeah we will mourn him and feel for him and his family. It has nothing to do with not caring about victims. So keep that white liberal talking point to yourself.

You make a lot of strong points, but it falls apart as soon as you say you don't know the truth because you weren't there. That's a lazy argument. I'm willing to bet you don't go around with no opinion about all the other criminal cases in history that you didn't personally witness. The fact is, Kobe ended up admitting the sex was not consensual.
 

maruchan

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
2,173

Barzul

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,965
I am just going to speak honestly here for a minute. I hope this doesn't get me in trouble, I'm just being completely transparent because I feel a lot of internal confusion.

I am a public defender for a living. One of the guiding moral principles I live by, is that nobody is defined by the worst thing they ever did. The other thing is, I absolutely believe that people of color, especially black men, are falsely accused on a regular basis. Dating back to Emmet Till, there is a significant historical context in this country that involves black men being accused of sexually assaulting white women.

Let me be clear, I'm not at all comparing Kobe Bryant to Emit Till. I don't want anybody to even try that bullshit, that's not what I'm saying. Till was a victim of a heinous hate crime, nothing close or even in the realm of Kobe. I'm just saying, it's with that history and context that I look at cases like this, and I have to find a way to balance "believe women" with "hundreds of years of systemic racism". I don't know where the balance is for that. But what I do know, is 17 years ago, the criminal charges against Kobe were dismissed and he and the woman reached a civil settlement.

My question, is.... if this woman received her own sense of restorative justice, would we even know? Does it even matter? Do we look at context? Do we take every allegation of abuse and believe the victim no matter the context, no matter what happens after, no matter what happens before? If we ask questions are we automatically empowering a rapist while tearing down his victim? By creating such a narrow view of these issues, are we failing to consider these important historical issues that undoubtedly persist in their impact on society today?

I really just feel like there's a lot of conversation around these issues that we need to have to truly empower all women, not just a certain segment. We're at a point now where if somebody is accused of rape, in the eyes of many, they're immediately a rapist. Again, NOT saying Kobe is not a rapist, I honestly don't know that much about his case. But is there any doubt that such a mindset will disparately affect black men more than anybody else?

I don't know the answers to these questions I really don't. But what I do know is, feminism shouldn't only be centered around the trauma of some women. I Know that men of color will be affected/accused by allegations like these more than anybody else. It's just the reality of years of institutional and systemic racism in this country. And we got a sad history of not considering the grieving black/brown mother, daughter and instead only centering feminism on the feelings of white women. Is that happening here At the expense of Vanessa and her daughters? Idk.

Anyways, those are just some questions I myself struggle with and I hope sharing them helps all of us grow out of these situations. Because that's all I want to do myself. I want people to educate me on these issues and help me understand how to answer these difficult questions but sometimes I feel like it's pointless because all I get are two extremes and no nuance.
Thank you for sharing this perspective. Black men definitely rape, of course that's not without question and based on the facts of what we know from Kobe's case he is in that bucket, an admitted rapist.
On your point re a narrow view, in my personal life I've seen black men get falsely accused of rape by families of white women because they're embarrassed it happened and the case eventually crumbles because she admits it was consensual, kind of difficult to know what balance to strike. How many don't make the admission and follow that family pressure all the way? I mean there's high profile Hollywood movies released on this exact phenomenon. I went to college in the South, I was explicitly told by my family members to be careful about sexual relationships with white women for this very reason. I just don't see how we can always take a narrow view on it when race permeates every aspect of society. Every single facet of American society is influenced by race.
 
Nov 30, 2017
2,750
I am just going to speak honestly here for a minute. I hope this doesn't get me in trouble, I'm just being completely transparent because I feel a lot of internal confusion.

I am a public defender for a living. One of the guiding moral principles I live by, is that nobody is defined by the worst thing they ever did. The other thing is, I absolutely believe that people of color, especially black men, are falsely accused on a regular basis. Dating back to Emmet Till, there is a significant historical context in this country that involves black men being accused of sexually assaulting white women.

Let me be clear, I'm not at all comparing Kobe Bryant to Emit Till. I don't want anybody to even try that bullshit, that's not what I'm saying. Till was a victim of a heinous hate crime, nothing close or even in the realm of Kobe. I'm just saying, it's with that history and context that I look at cases like this, and I have to find a way to balance "believe women" with "hundreds of years of systemic racism". I don't know where the balance is for that. But what I do know, is 17 years ago, the criminal charges against Kobe were dismissed and he and the woman reached a civil settlement.

My question, is.... if this woman received her own sense of restorative justice, would we even know? Does it even matter? Do we look at context? Do we take every allegation of abuse and believe the victim no matter the context, no matter what happens after, no matter what happens before? If we ask questions are we automatically empowering a rapist while tearing down his victim? By creating such a narrow view of these issues, are we failing to consider these important historical issues that undoubtedly persist in their impact on society today?

I really just feel like there's a lot of conversation around these issues that we need to have to truly empower all women, not just a certain segment. We're at a point now where if somebody is accused of rape, in the eyes of many, they're immediately a rapist. Again, NOT saying Kobe is not a rapist, I honestly don't know that much about his case. But is there any doubt that such a mindset will disparately affect black men more than anybody else?

I don't know the answers to these questions I really don't. But what I do know is, feminism shouldn't only be centered around the trauma of some women. I Know that men of color will be affected/accused by allegations like these more than anybody else. It's just the reality of years of institutional and systemic racism in this country. And we got a sad history of not considering the grieving black/brown mother, daughter and instead only centering feminism on the feelings of white women. Is that happening here At the expense of Vanessa and her daughters? Idk.

Anyways, those are just some questions I myself struggle with and I hope sharing them helps all of us grow out of these situations. Because that's all I want to do myself. I want people to educate me on these issues and help me understand how to answer these difficult questions but sometimes I feel like it's pointless because all I get are two extremes and no nuance.

I think you should have started a new thread to discuss the nuance regarding this.

Kobe admitted to rape. All you will get is extreme answer since what you are discussing has nothing to do with his case.

Then problem with Kobe is people trying to force other people how to feel about him. All you will get is backlash. People are too stubborn to be told what to feel. Unfortunately when you don't leave room for nuance you will always only get either extremes.

People can learn from their mistakes. Seems like he did, so people are more remembering the good things because he did a lot of positivity for the community afterwards. Does that excuse his history no. He should always have that taint that he did rape some one. But there has to be Some nuance as to how people go about their lives in society. But one thing is for sure everyone is stubborn in how they express their opinions.

I think that when you call someone a rapist, people take that as a person who is currently raping people. It has a present tense tone to it. People who follow him are aware that he did rape someone. However people are also more forgiving of him because his actions and work ethic afterwards when he became a family man and his push to better himself as a person afterwards.

Where do we draw the line of letting criminals out of jail to integrate into society to better themselves or just label them as a criminal who will always do crimes. What is the point of even implementing a correction system in prisons if we won't let past criminals integrate into Society.

But when you look at the other side of it. The victim will always be a victim to the crime no matter what sentence is implemented on the criminal. The pain will always be there and people who have a more inert ability to empathize with them will always have strong feelings against the criminal no matter what the criminal does. To them once a criminal always a criminal. It's ok to have that response as well as the victim should be more important than the criminal.

So I think it's ok for either extremes. But I think it's ok for the middle guy too. Unfortunately disagreements always just end up turning ugly these days because people just can't stand other people having differing opinions to their own.
 
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Powdered Egg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,070
The hypocrisy from some specific people on my timeline and other places is ridiculous. A rightwinger responsible for pain and suffering rightfully gets called out upon death for all their misdeeds. Kobe dies and I'm seeing all types of "time and place", slut-shaming, or Jim crow deflection.

Black men being set up doesn't have anything to do with an admitted rapist. Being an inspiration or a generational talent and a rapist aren't mutually exclusive. All the Kobe changed stuff, we didn't know him personally and there are plenty of rapists who are beloved publicly and have the nice guy public persona. "Family Man" is the easiest good guy label to achieve, all we men have to do is show up. We're getting extra credit for shit women do by default.

He very well may have changed and stopped abusing women, and I appreciate his "give back" efforts, but rapists get a perpetual "nigga wtf is wrong with you?" from me.
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
People can learn from their mistakes. Seems like he did, so people are more remembering the good things because he did a lot of positivity for the community afterwards. Does that excuse his history no. He should always have that taint that he did rape some one. But there has to be Some nuance as to how people go about their lives in society. But one thing is for sure everyone is stubborn in how they express their opinions.

Where do we draw the line of letting criminals out of jail to integrate into society to better themselves or just label them as a criminal who will always do crimes. What is the point of even implementing a correction system in prisons if we won't let past criminals integrate into Society.

But when you look at the other side of it. The victim will always be a victim to the crime no matter what sentence is implemented on the criminal. The pain will always be there and people who have a more inert ability to empathize with them will always have strong feelings against the criminal no matter what the criminal does. To them once a criminal always a criminal. It's ok to have that response as well as the victim should be more important than the criminal.

So I think it's ok for either extremes. But I think it's ok for the middle guy too. Unfortunately disagreements always just end up turning ugly these days because people just can't stand other people having differing opinions to their own.
This is a big issue with Kobe, though. Kobe did NOT go to jail, he did not serve time for the crime, and he did NOT go through the "correction" system. He bullied the witness into silence and then paid for her future silence to avoid accountability.

As someone else said, yes, we "learn from our mistakes'... but we're so cavalier about RAPE being a mistake to "learn from". Like raping someone and learning not to do that and be a better person is some character-building moment of courage and a comeback narrative to root for.

I had a coworker who defended Bill Cosby, saying that he was such a net positive in the world that the rapes shouldn't matter. Whether it was one time or dozens of times, Cosby did so much good for the community.

At his trial:
" "I can only speak to the great man that I know and love, who has been so generous, who has been such a philanthropist and giving back millions of dollars to education and schools," the now 38-year-old actress Keshia Knight-Pulliam told reporters.

Friends and family vouched that he was kind and generous, a devoted family man with five beautiful children. Millions spent on community centers and charitable deeds.

And that was often the defense used. "What about his family?" "What about his children?" "What about his friends and fans?" "What about his legacy?"

And so many failed to ever ask "what about his victims?"
Even fewer asked about all the victims of abuse that never come forward who routinely watch men in power get away with it.

615395_v4.jpg


THIS is why it's important to shift away from the "middle" of these type of conversations. Kobe's actions weren't just a one-off incident in our society but a systematic example of the failure of the system to bring justice to victims of sexual assault. He never served his time, he bullied his accuser into silence, within a year he was back to being the 2nd highest-paid sponsored athlete in the world, he "moved on" to be a family man with success and praise and accolades whose own vanity project won him an Oscar while his public image healed in record time...

... While if his victim was anything like the women I know, she watched all this while handling trust issues, paying for psychiatry visits, dealing with death threats, and waking up every morning knowing he was on TV talking about how wonderful his life was.

If we're going to talk "nuance", it's that if Kobe Bryant wasn't a beloved athlete with high-paid lawyers, he'd still be serving time in jail and would be considered a pariah everywhere he went.
 

Lulu

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
26,680
Don't remember Vice putting articles out about Paul Walker and underage girls after his death. Seems this is different wonder why.

Also why did the victim take the settlement? They were from well off family. History can't be erased all parts of legacy can be reviewed.

People will remember what they want in the end. Kobe won't be here to defend himself anymore.
We out here victim blaming and whataboutin

Epic
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,392
I don't have a problem with people bringing it up when discussing his life and career as a whole, as you would when any celebrity dies. It was seeing people's immediate reaction to his and his daughter's death being "He's a rapist but he can put a ball in a hope so he's a hero hur dur" on twitter which was kind of infuriating, like give it a day maybe, it was single digit hours from when it happened and I was seeing stuff like that.

A person isn't the summation of the worst things they've ever done, that doesn't mean you sweep it under the rug, but I'm willing to accept that a person can do a terrible thing give an apology, take action in their lives, and 17 years later after being a father of four girls be a changed person. Your hot takes about your indifference to a tragedy doesn't serve anyone, including the victim. Definitely understand showing support for the victim when doing the same for Bryant's family this is probably a very hard time for them so I understand that.