Consent isn't subjective. He raped her. Him saying he knows she didn't feel she consented is plenty. That's what rape is. One person didn't want it and it doesn't matter what perceptions he wants to insert on her behalf because of his opinion - if she didn't feel there was consent, that's rape. His wrong assumption about her mind and his take don't make it all good with her. You're being one of those people fixated on "well if it didn't end in conviction... he's all clear"
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Vice: Reporters and Activists Are Being Harassed for Saying Kobe Bryant Was Credibly Accused of Rape (Read Staff Posts)
- Thread starter Syriel
- Start date
When people die they magically become saints, happens with common folks, happens x1000000000 with celebrities. The cult of personality is baffling. Yea sure dude X was good at Y, but he also did bad thing Z. That simple. Unbelievable some people can't manage to process that. NO MY MULTIMILIONARIE FRIEND MUST BE PERFECT!!!!
Read the article in the OP. Kobe is a rapist and maybe Shaq too but all the victims get paid off to keep quiet.
Re-read the post you're responding to, because this is meaningless. This is pedantic legalistic bullshit to try to constrain discussion to criminal charges for specific rape charges.
As BAD just said, his mindset has nothing to do with whether it's rape. His mindset at the time doesn't have to be "she's not interested but screw what she wants, I'm going to fuck her" for it to be rape. It's rape because she was put through sexual activity that she didn't consent to, a thing he's stipulated in his public statement.
You're trying to make it about the mental state of the rapist, which is incredibly fitting because much like many aspects of the current culture, it erases the experience of the victim. This rape apologism on your part is fucking disgusting. It's almost as if people are "out for blood" because you're engaged in repellent behavior.
Cool, so you stroll into this thread and heavily imply I'm not arguing in good faith (with your bit about you supposedly providing "proof" in another thread, and then I apparently demanded more anyways), argue about the definition of rape (hint: it doesn't matter what Kobe thought), make backhanded comments about having to deal with this at work (whatever that may be), then disappear without backing any of your claims.
Par for the course in these types of threads.
You're the one making the claims and shitting up this thread, I'm not going to DM you anything.
It happens when they are alive too. Wait for the defense force on that racist Gal Gadot when Wonder Woman 1984 drops.
Pretty crazy jumping between the two Kobe threads. And then seeing Reddit, where people praise him, some criticize his rape, etc. The irony of it all is that you will be seen as a monster for ever bringing it up, so it ends up quietly being swept under the rug forever.
I found this one reddit thread that makes a huge analysis of how Kobe was innocent, and its getting posted every time people bring up the rape. Id post it here but Im not trying to get involved in a debate, but it's clear some see it as a race issue, some see it as a feminism issue, and some just see it as a hater/fanboy issue. Pretty interesting to see all of this unfold, but watching all these celebrities from outside basketball honour Kobe makes it clear that he will be immortalized as a hero. Must suck hard for detractors to properly get a conversation going when his death will be used to fiercely defend his legacy.
I found this one reddit thread that makes a huge analysis of how Kobe was innocent, and its getting posted every time people bring up the rape. Id post it here but Im not trying to get involved in a debate, but it's clear some see it as a race issue, some see it as a feminism issue, and some just see it as a hater/fanboy issue. Pretty interesting to see all of this unfold, but watching all these celebrities from outside basketball honour Kobe makes it clear that he will be immortalized as a hero. Must suck hard for detractors to properly get a conversation going when his death will be used to fiercely defend his legacy.
Don't worry it doesn't matter because women and victims are only bringing it up cause we are evil and we should shut the fuck up.
Not cause maybe some people should know along with all the other things we've mentioned in the thread.
Not cause maybe some people should know along with all the other things we've mentioned in the thread.
this shit was tragic no doubt - and plenty folks looked up to kobe & the good he did,
people are complicated, i get that - i reckon with sentiments like this over 2pac and others
but so many folks have been showing their asses - i get rappers, spike lee,. marc lamont hill etc with the tributes, but watching BLM and other social justice orgs that work to create spaces for victims lionise a rapist was some shit. i wish y'all knew what seeing this does to sexual assault victims.
protip: if you don't feel you know any, that's because moves like this signal you're unsafe.
natural evolution of a settler colonial state built on white supremacy
people are complicated, i get that - i reckon with sentiments like this over 2pac and others
but so many folks have been showing their asses - i get rappers, spike lee,. marc lamont hill etc with the tributes, but watching BLM and other social justice orgs that work to create spaces for victims lionise a rapist was some shit. i wish y'all knew what seeing this does to sexual assault victims.
protip: if you don't feel you know any, that's because moves like this signal you're unsafe.
natural evolution of a settler colonial state built on white supremacy
So I didn't really know this guy. I vaguely might have guessed he was a basketball player. But I read the Wiki article on the rape and jez it sounds pretty brutal, straggling etc..
Never mind all the shit from arseholes after it and she was only 19.
The only thing that stands to him is him admitting what he did in a round about way. I don't see how anyone can defend him really. He should have been in jail for a couple of years.
Never mind all the shit from arseholes after it and she was only 19.
The only thing that stands to him is him admitting what he did in a round about way. I don't see how anyone can defend him really. He should have been in jail for a couple of years.
User Banned (2 Months): Inflammatory Point of Comparison Surrounding Sexual Assault
I am just going to speak honestly here for a minute. I hope this doesn't get me in trouble, I'm just being completely transparent because I feel a lot of internal confusion.
I am a public defender for a living. One of the guiding moral principles I live by, is that nobody is defined by the worst thing they ever did. The other thing is, I absolutely believe that people of color, especially black men, are falsely accused on a regular basis. Dating back to Emmet Till, there is a significant historical context in this country that involves black men being accused of sexually assaulting white women.
Let me be clear, I'm not at all comparing Kobe Bryant to Emit Till. I don't want anybody to even try that bullshit, that's not what I'm saying. Till was a victim of a heinous hate crime, nothing close or even in the realm of Kobe. I'm just saying, it's with that history and context that I look at cases like this, and I have to find a way to balance "believe women" with "hundreds of years of systemic racism". I don't know where the balance is for that. But what I do know, is 17 years ago, the criminal charges against Kobe were dismissed and he and the woman reached a civil settlement.
My question, is.... if this woman received her own sense of restorative justice, would we even know? Does it even matter? Do we look at context? Do we take every allegation of abuse and believe the victim no matter the context, no matter what happens after, no matter what happens before? If we ask questions are we automatically empowering a rapist while tearing down his victim? By creating such a narrow view of these issues, are we failing to consider these important historical issues that undoubtedly persist in their impact on society today?
I really just feel like there's a lot of conversation around these issues that we need to have to truly empower all women, not just a certain segment. We're at a point now where if somebody is accused of rape, in the eyes of many, they're immediately a rapist. Again, NOT saying Kobe is not a rapist, I honestly don't know that much about his case. But is there any doubt that such a mindset will disparately affect black men more than anybody else?
I don't know the answers to these questions I really don't. But what I do know is, feminism shouldn't only be centered around the trauma of some women. I Know that men of color will be affected/accused by allegations like these more than anybody else. It's just the reality of years of institutional and systemic racism in this country. And we got a sad history of not considering the grieving black/brown mother, daughter and instead only centering feminism on the feelings of white women. Is that happening here At the expense of Vanessa and her daughters? Idk.
Anyways, those are just some questions I myself struggle with and I hope sharing them helps all of us grow out of these situations. Because that's all I want to do myself. I want people to educate me on these issues and help me understand how to answer these difficult questions but sometimes I feel like it's pointless because all I get are two extremes and no nuance.
I am a public defender for a living. One of the guiding moral principles I live by, is that nobody is defined by the worst thing they ever did. The other thing is, I absolutely believe that people of color, especially black men, are falsely accused on a regular basis. Dating back to Emmet Till, there is a significant historical context in this country that involves black men being accused of sexually assaulting white women.
Let me be clear, I'm not at all comparing Kobe Bryant to Emit Till. I don't want anybody to even try that bullshit, that's not what I'm saying. Till was a victim of a heinous hate crime, nothing close or even in the realm of Kobe. I'm just saying, it's with that history and context that I look at cases like this, and I have to find a way to balance "believe women" with "hundreds of years of systemic racism". I don't know where the balance is for that. But what I do know, is 17 years ago, the criminal charges against Kobe were dismissed and he and the woman reached a civil settlement.
My question, is.... if this woman received her own sense of restorative justice, would we even know? Does it even matter? Do we look at context? Do we take every allegation of abuse and believe the victim no matter the context, no matter what happens after, no matter what happens before? If we ask questions are we automatically empowering a rapist while tearing down his victim? By creating such a narrow view of these issues, are we failing to consider these important historical issues that undoubtedly persist in their impact on society today?
I really just feel like there's a lot of conversation around these issues that we need to have to truly empower all women, not just a certain segment. We're at a point now where if somebody is accused of rape, in the eyes of many, they're immediately a rapist. Again, NOT saying Kobe is not a rapist, I honestly don't know that much about his case. But is there any doubt that such a mindset will disparately affect black men more than anybody else?
I don't know the answers to these questions I really don't. But what I do know is, feminism shouldn't only be centered around the trauma of some women. I Know that men of color will be affected/accused by allegations like these more than anybody else. It's just the reality of years of institutional and systemic racism in this country. And we got a sad history of not considering the grieving black/brown mother, daughter and instead only centering feminism on the feelings of white women. Is that happening here At the expense of Vanessa and her daughters? Idk.
Anyways, those are just some questions I myself struggle with and I hope sharing them helps all of us grow out of these situations. Because that's all I want to do myself. I want people to educate me on these issues and help me understand how to answer these difficult questions but sometimes I feel like it's pointless because all I get are two extremes and no nuance.
The most level headed defenses in this thread are at best shit tier moral licensing.
When you tell people "it's not time" to talk about this type of thing, you're telling victims they don't matter. The pain they suffered doesn't matter because it will never be time.
Also, shame on The Washington Post for how they handled the situation with their reporter.
When you tell people "it's not time" to talk about this type of thing, you're telling victims they don't matter. The pain they suffered doesn't matter because it will never be time.
Also, shame on The Washington Post for how they handled the situation with their reporter.
As a Kobe fan, there's a very real possibility that he raped that woman. For all the good he did there's nothing that will erase that and it's wrong to try to sweep it under the rug just because he died tragically.
Other rape survivors' feelings on him are perfectly valid.
Other rape survivors' feelings on him are perfectly valid.
I feel like this isn't getting enough attention. The Post's behavior here is egregious and entirely self-serving.
While black figureheads and celebrities are often held to unfair standards, Kobe was a zillionaire superstar that the world loved when he met this girl - and was the same after the settlement. Let's not pretend there was an unfounded and unfair smear campaign against him because he's black. I really don't understand the need to invoke that element here, when he himself admitted it. Doing so is tacitly admitting he should receive special treatment.
Kobe Bryant admitted to rape in a statement. While all of what you say is true about systemic racism and the social injustices of the United States when it comes to black men and women, I fail to see the relevance in this particular case with that information in mind. There isn't a way to rectify that, say he suffered from a form of racial injustice.
I would ask you to look up the statistics around rape, how only four or five out of one thousand accused rapists actually go to jail.
I'm not sure what sort of public defender you are, but I would be scared of someone that didn't rely on evidence as an important part of any case. In this case, the evidence from the accused's mouth.
I mean, you saw what kobe said, right? But you're still insinuating the woman with no power working at the hotel is taking advantage of the beloved millionaire. He went on to be a beloved millionaire until his untimely passing, she was dragged, constantly called a liar, and then completely retreated from the public eye. Also, I think you can find an insane amount of sympathy for Vanessa and the daughters here. Also sympathy for Kobe's rape victim. I dont find both of those difficult to maintain simultaneously.
Might want to check some details of the case before weighing in much more here though.
Good post. Yeah, a lot of people really don't know what SA victims feel when they see these rapists mourned like saints.
I don't think BLM or any other intersectional progressive group has any less of an expectation of hypocrisy than the average person. I would go so far as to say that particular group has been among Kobe's most visible critics, even if plenty within that spheres acquiesce to his cultural importance.
Even when he was alive this was a weirdly sensitive topic. I remember when he won an Oscar for that Dear Basketball short and people rightfully called out the Academy for rewarding somebody who was accused of rape, especially in the post-#metoo era. The amount of hate those people got online was ridiculous.
I'm guilty of this. I'm guilty of not reading the thread entirely, too, but that's not important. When a guy admits to non-consensual sex, that is called admitting rape. Grievers (me) probably don't want to hear it, but Kobe would be a felon if his case came about in 2020.
None of that is forgotten or forgiven, but it should also be recognized that despite every myth, people can change. I have followed the Lakers religiously for 30 of my 36 years. Kobe changed. Is that enough? I doubt it. I loved the guy and the answer is still no from me.
But at the same time, maybe his (later) advocacy for women could be acknowledged. He seemed very much like a kid (he was 17 when he arrived in LA to be a Laker) who got too much too fast, and He made at least one unforgivable mistake that he spent the rest of his time making up for. That is not an excuse to rape someone, but it is a way to get at least an attempt at empathy out of me.
Please understand: he died young and wasn't done repairing the things he could and asking forgiveness for the things he couldn't. But he was trying harder than most of us do after our mistakes. It's sure as hell not an acquittal, but it is a hint at the character those who loved him saw.
I'll probably get banned for this. God bless opinions until someone else has one.
None of that is forgotten or forgiven, but it should also be recognized that despite every myth, people can change. I have followed the Lakers religiously for 30 of my 36 years. Kobe changed. Is that enough? I doubt it. I loved the guy and the answer is still no from me.
But at the same time, maybe his (later) advocacy for women could be acknowledged. He seemed very much like a kid (he was 17 when he arrived in LA to be a Laker) who got too much too fast, and He made at least one unforgivable mistake that he spent the rest of his time making up for. That is not an excuse to rape someone, but it is a way to get at least an attempt at empathy out of me.
Please understand: he died young and wasn't done repairing the things he could and asking forgiveness for the things he couldn't. But he was trying harder than most of us do after our mistakes. It's sure as hell not an acquittal, but it is a hint at the character those who loved him saw.
I'll probably get banned for this. God bless opinions until someone else has one.
This is an excellent point, and further proves that we as a society have yet to understand how to celebrate the lives of our icons when they have done irrefutable wrongs.
Thank you for this.
Don't make a difference for idols or influential people. Rape is rape. If you all would've known before, the person may hadn't even come so far. Don't idolize someone so far up your ass that suddenly even rape would be something you oversee. That's.. ill.
Idolization went completely out of hands a long time ago. There are people living so they can watch and follow other's instead of living their own. Think about it.
Which is sadly ironic considering what led to the creation of this forum
I think its healthy to discuss the potential harm in putting people on pedestals and turning them into monoliths. It's something we see far too often, especially in America. We idolize folks, almost making them untouchable. No one on Earth should be above scrutiny. No one is above the law.
However, there is a time and place for certain conversations. That's not saying that folks need to shut up. That's not saying facts, feelings or opinions don't matter, at all or ever. But CONTEXT and OPTICS matter too. In this situation, we're taking about a crime that happened many years ago. A crime that was settled via legal terms. We're talking about a man, who has since, lived a positive and influential life. We're talking about a man who has suddenly died, thus, unable to defend himself or speak on his own behalf.
Needless to say, this is a VERY sensitive topic. There is a very thin line between wanting to preserve facts and seeking to thwart the idolization of an individual versus assassinating someone's character after their tragic death, despite that person's effort to redeem themselves.
I try my best to not even have an opinion at all. I wasn't present in any of these events. I didn't know these people. I can't fairly assess or judge anyone. I figure my opinion wouldn't matter anyway. I mean, what does it ultimately do? What does it contribute or lead to? I'm an outcome and result oriented person. Everything has to have a purpose or else what is the point. Nothing should exist in a vacuum.
Anyway, just have an open mind. Consider what's real and what's in the moment.
Maybe don't celebrate icons that much to begin with? They're just people. I never understand this insane level of fandom. It's unhealthy to idolize people in that way. Unhealthy for yourself and unhealthy for the person involved. Sure, it's what US culture is based in right now but it's clearly toxic and unhealthy. They're just people who tried a bit harder than most of us. Appreciate their efforts and arts and be reasonable and rational otherwise. You make people feel more special than they really are. They're constantly being remembered that they are amazing, better than other people, above other people. i always fear for the life of a young person getting famous in the US as it will certainly mean they will have a fucked up view on reality and a fucked up view on their own persona. They seem Like deities in the US.
Anyway, you're not the person you are Stanning. You're not responsible for their wrongdoings. So you don't have to defend them when they fuck a person against their will. And you certainly shouldn't threaten a person's life who calls them out for that. What an insane mindset to have.
Watch his lay-ups or dunks on repeat for all i care. But know when to be humane and empathic.
imo people should be able to bring this up in the main thread. If folks who idolise Kobe don't like it, they can just ignore it (like they've been doing all this while) and move on.
So true, like I honestly did not realize that he is a God to so many people it's honestly wild reading some of these reactions, as though they've lost an immediate family member. You have many, many people wanting the NBA logo changed, the number 24 retired league wide. People are actually walking around profoundly affected by this, it's unlike anything I've ever seen
As far as the main thread, I considered posting despite the staff warning but opted not to out of respect for his 13 yro daughter and the others who died in the crash.
As far as Kobe goes, I hope he was a changed man, being a father to 4 daughters. Realizing that he would never want someone to treat any of his 4 daughters the way he treated his own victim. But it doesn't seem like he repented in any meaningful way outside of perhaps becoming a better family man.
He should have been the bigger man, accepted the consequences of his actions, and at the least apologized to his victim for his actions. And now he's gone. His family with no father. His victim with no closure. And his legacy that men, especially rich/powerful ones, can commit crimes and ruin lives with no repercussions. To still be celebrated and mourned. And perhaps to make his victim feel more isolated than ever as his fame seems to be dragging down new victims in harassment post-mortem.
As far as Kobe goes, I hope he was a changed man, being a father to 4 daughters. Realizing that he would never want someone to treat any of his 4 daughters the way he treated his own victim. But it doesn't seem like he repented in any meaningful way outside of perhaps becoming a better family man.
He should have been the bigger man, accepted the consequences of his actions, and at the least apologized to his victim for his actions. And now he's gone. His family with no father. His victim with no closure. And his legacy that men, especially rich/powerful ones, can commit crimes and ruin lives with no repercussions. To still be celebrated and mourned. And perhaps to make his victim feel more isolated than ever as his fame seems to be dragging down new victims in harassment post-mortem.
i think it's 100000% valid for people to mourn someone who is/was their hero. you can't stop yourself from grieving, and you aren't a bad person for grieving. you aren't a rapist sympathiser for being sad that kobe died.
that being said, i feel like this conversation only happens when the crime is specifically rape or sexual assault. "yeah he raped someone, and that's unforgivable, but it was such a long time ago and he's done so much for his community since then".
i'm just going to say it: i don't think people here view rape as the most unforgivable crime. imagine if this story was, "yeah kobe skinned a baby alive 15 years ago, and that's unforgivable, but it was such a long time ago and he's done so much for his community since then". it sounds absolutely ridiculous to even write that, but that's the same kind of phrasing used in this very thread.
i think some people lack perspective on how life-shattering rape is.
that being said, i feel like this conversation only happens when the crime is specifically rape or sexual assault. "yeah he raped someone, and that's unforgivable, but it was such a long time ago and he's done so much for his community since then".
i'm just going to say it: i don't think people here view rape as the most unforgivable crime. imagine if this story was, "yeah kobe skinned a baby alive 15 years ago, and that's unforgivable, but it was such a long time ago and he's done so much for his community since then". it sounds absolutely ridiculous to even write that, but that's the same kind of phrasing used in this very thread.
i think some people lack perspective on how life-shattering rape is.
A lot of abusers don't give a damn about stuff like this. A lot of men's empathy for rape, sexual assault and domestic violence only extends as far as their mother, daughters, sisters, nieces and aunts, at best. The type that would say they would kill anyone who harasses their sister but does nothing when they're out in the club and their friend is harassing a woman they don't know.
The likely scenario is that a lot of rapists have daughters and women in their lives that they care about. If the sort of thinking that you're espousing really existed, then rape and sexual violence would be far less of a problem than it is
I think it's valid to bring up, but his daughter died too and it just seems in poor taste. I get it though. Bring it up. Just don't try to be edgy and shrug off his death. Like a lot of people here don't believe in the death penalty even when someone kills a dozen children. So why go around picking fights over his death?
I wasn't a big fan of his and back in the day I sided with the victim (still do). It should remain a stain on his legacy. And yet, it seems unfair to only focus on that because it appears to be an isolated incident. Maybe he changed after that? Who knows.
I wasn't a big fan of his and back in the day I sided with the victim (still do). It should remain a stain on his legacy. And yet, it seems unfair to only focus on that because it appears to be an isolated incident. Maybe he changed after that? Who knows.
