Vice: Reporters and Activists Are Being Harassed for Saying Kobe Bryant Was Credibly Accused of Rape (Read Staff Posts)

[RedMercury]

He acknowledged he fucked up and has done nothing but good since. I wonder is there a way to redemption or does a person who fucked up once always gonna be considered criminal?

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That is a personal decision each person is entitled to make for themselves after they deliberate and come to a conclusion based on their own convictions. Just like I wouldn't say you are empirically wrong for supporting the guy, I wouldn't say people who don't are wrong either. There's isn't some scientific objective answer.

 

[Prine]

can you speak with confidence that the victim has moved on and found peace?

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No I can't say, of course. But If a settlement was reached, the victim has somewhat indicated that they intend to heal from thier suffering. It's horrible for her, and Kobe was a piece of shit for what he did, but having daughters of his own, I'm absolutely certain it haunts him everyday, and as long as that is felt, he's shown sincere remorse.

 

[Volimar]

He acknowledged he fucked up and has done nothing but good since. I wonder is there a way to redemption or does a person who fucked up once always gonna be considered criminal?

It's fine to bring up his past but a lot of what you see on ERA or social media seems to be shitting on him for the sake of it.

If he was someone like Weinstein I would understand it but I think the context of what he has done since should be considered.

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I think any "fuck up" that results in ruined lives is probably fair game for the rest of your life, and after. It's as much a part of his legacy as his basketball career.

 

[cartographer]

One of the most disingenuous lines of reasoning I've seen crop up in these discussions is distinguishing between rape and "forced rape" (see page 5 of this thread) as if Kobe and the victim merely had a difference of opinion as to whether there was consent.

Most rapists are not actively trying to have non-consensual sex. What makes their behavior criminal is that they are indifferent to the existence of consent and/or otherwise don't do enough to ascertain that it's there. The latter point is particularly poignant in the context of, say, the accused being a famous basketball player with a lot of power who also happens to engage in particularly violent sexual practices that may justify additional clarity when it comes to ascertaining the existence of consent.

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Yes, it's a common deflection when it comes to wrongdoing. That an act can only happen in one particular way, and if it didn't adhere to that exact situation then it doesn't really count.

Most rape doesn't happen in the way people seem to think it does. People stay quiet because of the chorus of voices trying to find the loophole instead of looking at the only thing that matters: mutual consent.

 

[Deleted member 4346]

Someone brought up Mike Tyson a few pages ago. I think there's an important distinction between Tyson and Kobe Bryant- Tyson was found guilty and sent to prison. He was punished, and so I think the idea of redemption holds up better in his case. Kobe was able to skate by with paying a settlement. Now by all accounts he's been a model citizen since then, and that, combined with the complicated facts of the case, allowed his public image to be whitewashed. I don't know how to feel about this whole thing, honestly. I think I posted before, here or elsewhere, that if the Colorado incident happened in 2017 instead of 2003, Kobe would have been 100% finished, b-ball talent or no.

For sure fans shouldn't be sending death threats to people commenting on this on social media, though. That's fucking sick. Like it or not, what happened in Colorado is a part of Kobe's legacy. It's a legitimate point to make. People are so fixated on propriety when it comes to the deceased, even if they did monstrous things in life.

 

[Mekanos]

It's more "it happened 17 years ago, he didn't get completely away with it, and in those 17 years he stayed out of trouble, and appeared to try to be better and do good work."

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Ehhhhhh.

I'm all for a genuine discussion on whether people in Kobe's position can be redeemed (you could argue he'll never get the chance to now) but I'd say he got a slap on the wrist all things considered.

 

[Morrigan]

This thread isn't really about her tho. It's about backlash reporters are getting for bringing it up not even 24 hrs after him and others died.

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Fair, I edited my post. It's about the harassment her supporters received. Still kinda gross.

 

[Feep]

I recently read through the police transcript of how the victim described the encounter in a Daily Beast article. I'm not sure I should be quoting this stuff on this board, because it's extremely intense, but I choose to believe the victim, and holy shit, I have no problem saying fuck Kobe Bryant.

His death, and moreso the eight others on board, is still a tragedy, especially because from all accounts, Kobe had become a better person. But it in no way excuses or erases those unbelievably heinous acts from his resume, and no one should expect people to forget it because suddenly he's dead and magically, dead people deserve respect unconditionally. No, they don't.

 

[platocplx]

....

Yeah, this wasn't a "learning experience".

I had a discussion with a friend of mine once what it would take for her rapist to be "forgiven" and be allowed to move on with their life. How much would he have to pay? How much public good would he need to do? How many apologies would be enough?

"All I wanted," she told me, "was for him to face actual justice. He didn't. So nothing he will ever do will ever be enough."

That has always stuck with me. To see someone be victimized, disbelieved, harassed, and ultimately not get justice, only to watch their abuser go on to live a normal life without consequences with a devoted family and future success while she spent years with trust issues and psychologist visits...

... No. These things should not be forgotten, and when the world proudly declares that someone like this is a role model, an icon, a HERO - a champion to be venerated and celebrated, then it's the right time to set the record straight.

"But think of his family!" "Think of his fans!" "Think of his legacy!"

... and as usual, nobody thinks of the victim.

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I agree with them saying justice, but then you do have people saying justice is him dying, is that justice? or is justice something else and who decides what is justice? is it just him going to jail, them nearly losing their career, them putting a lot of their money into causes for victims subjected to the act they did. this is probably what should be the question what is justice to a victim in these cases. because clearly a lot of people are all over the place with that.

 

[Wazzy]

I am uncomfortable by the number of people going "let's wait and let people mourn" in a thread specifically about the harassment the victim received.

There's a larger conversation to be had about good acts making amends (or not) for bad ones and a mixed legacy and all that, but this part is specifically irksome. Feels pretty insulting to the victim and her harassment is brushed away with "let people mourn, don't talk about this".

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It's kind of weird to assume how the victim is feeling when it's also possible she didn't want this stuff brought back up especially considering the context and it being pushed into the media that is already dealing with the loss of innocents on the DAY of the announced deaths. She should be allowed to speak up about her case and feelings on the matter, not people who just gleefully want to celebrate a rapist dying.

People need to realize this isn't just about Kobe. He might be getting the majority of focus but the fact is other people are dead and deserve focus instead of Kobes rape case overtaking their memory.

 

[El Bombastico]

The only way Kobe "paid" for his rape was the $3 million or so he paid the victim the civil suit, which given how he was worth half a billion or so, is the equivalent of tossing his pocket change at her face.

 

[UltimateHigh]

I'll just ask; Is there ever a point where someone is forgiven for a mistake or a crime? Bryant apologized for what happened, he paid for it on multiple levels, made amends, and from all accounts became a dedicated family man and good human being after it happened.

Do we really compare someone like that to someone like Trump who has never apologized, repeatedly raped women (probably even young girls), and even bragged about doing it?

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makes me wonder how many of them are pro-death penalty considering how completely unforgiving they are, regardless of the type of person the accused has become.

rehabilitation, regardless of how its done, is impossible in their eyes.

but again, people shouldnt be shushed or hounded away for speaking their peace.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I'm sure he took a major hit with his wife, because she had him on a leash for their rest of their marriage. Also he had to undergo marriage and psychological counseling after this happened for years. So yeah, I wouldn't say he got off scott-free for any of this. In the 17 years after this happened by all accounts he was nothing but a model citizen.

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This is absolutely getting off scott free.

 

[Deleted member 60096]

I think this should be a compromise to start with. he raped her it was a text book date rape. Now who he was after all of that i think that is where this debate should start and if he is redeemed or not etc.

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I asked this early in the thread and nobody answered, what good did Kobe do that would count as redemption? Like I know he played basketball and was apparently a family man but the way people are willing to go to bat for him surely theres more to it than that?

 

[Envelope]

It's kind of weird to assume how the victim is feeling when it's also possible she didn't want this stuff brought back up especially considering the context and it being pushed into the media that is already dealing with the loss of innocents on the DAY of the announced deaths. She should be allowed to speak up about her case and feelings on the matter, not people who just gleefully want celebrate a rapist dying.

People need to realize this isn't just about Kobe. He might be getting the majority of focus but the fact is other people are dead and deserve focus instead of Kobes rape case overtaking their memory.

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According to the thread yesterday even mentioning the other victims was "all lives matter"ing Kobe's death and "susp" 🤷‍♀️

 

[UltimateHigh]

According to the thread yesterday even mentioning the other victims was "all lives matter"ing Kobe's death and "susp" 🤷‍♀️

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what?

 

[rsfour]

Twitter can be a real shithole sometimes. I'm convinced that you could tweet out that you discovered the cure for cancer and you'd get death threats for it.

Don't dare pull down people's favorite celebrities on the best day. On the day they die? It's a license for those fanatics to be sociopaths.

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big pharma, republicans, anti vaxxers, etc, they'd be all over someone that found a cure for cancer.

 

[platocplx]

Someone brought up Mike Tyson a few pages ago. I think there's an important distinction between Tyson and Kobe Bryant- Tyson was found guilty and sent to prison. He was punished, and so I think the idea of redemption holds up better in his case. Kobe was able to skate by with paying a settlement. Now by all accounts he's been a model citizen since then, and that, combined with the complicated facts of the case, allowed his public image to be whitewashed. I don't know how to feel about this whole thing, honestly. I think I posted before, here or elsewhere, that if the Colorado incident happened in 2017 instead of 2003, Kobe would have been 100% finished, b-ball talent or no.

For sure fans shouldn't be sending death threats to people commenting on this on social media, though. That's fucking sick. Like it or not, what happened in Colorado is a part of Kobe's legacy. It's a legitimate point to make. People are so fixated on propriety when it comes to the deceased, even if they did monstrous things in life.

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and this is a fair point, but it seems people look at justice being him dying a horrible death, him going to jail for it that wouldve been just fine too just like tyson, but it seems people are putting a death sentence to the rape, so its hard to understand a lot of this, and i dont agree with anyone hand-waving the rape. it happened.

 

[Darksol]

I'd also like to point out that most of us aren't happy he died; we're just not emotionally distraught over the death of a rapist.

Would I prefer he lived? Of course. He deserved jail time.

 

[Envelope]

what?

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Some real shitty people in that thread stanning for Kobe if you read through it.

 

[Fiction]

What Kobe did was unfortunate. At the time, things looked pretty clear and he did mostly cop to it. Outside of being in jail, he didn't exactly get away with it. He has a permanent stain on his legacy and he did suffer a civil penalty. It seems some think that wasn't enough. Like jail is always the magic bullet here.

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I have no skin in this game as I am not a Kobe fan or basketball fan in general.

I am, however, a rape survivor and uh...

No. No to all of this. It's been 25+ years since my rape and it still fucks me up every day.

'Unfortunate'

Yeah no, that shit is life altering.

 

[Deleted member 60096]

No I can't say, of course. But If a settlement was reached, the victim has somewhat indicated that they intend to heal from thier suffering. It's horrible for her, and Kobe was a piece of shit for what he did, but having daughters of his own, I'm absolutely certain it haunts him everyday, and as long as that is felt, he's shown sincere remorse.

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Or that they didn't want to go through the trauma of court? Like that very well may have been her meaning but it is definitely not a certainty

 

[Solaris]

I am uncomfortable by the number of people going "let's wait and let people mourn" in a thread specifically about the harassment the victim's supporters received.

There's a larger conversation to be had about good acts making amends (or not) for bad ones and a mixed legacy and all that, but this part is specifically irksome. Feels pretty insulting to the victim and related harassment is brushed away with "let people mourn, don't talk about this".

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The man died in a horrific accident with his daughter, leaving behind his grieving wife and three other daughters.

What exactly is being achieved by saying "yeah but he was a rapist" within hours of his death?

There's most definitely a discussion to be had about sweeping these things under the rug, but have some fucking human decency at least.

 

[D i Z]

The only way Kobe "paid" for his rape was the $3 million or so he paid the victim the civil suit, which given how he was worth half a billion or so, is the equivalent of tossing his pocket change at her face.

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If you've been reading this thread or most basketball threads then you know he's been paying for this in the court of public opinion for a long time. None of it is genuine however.

 

[platocplx]

I'd also like to point out that most of us aren't happy he died; we're just not emotionally distraught over the death of a rapist.

Would I prefer he lived? Of course. He deserved jail time.

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and this is totally fine, but perception seems like he deserved this death. so what is it really? because he never saw a jail cell and if thats what it was i can totally understand it.

 

[Garlador]

I agree with them saying justice, but then you do have people saying justice is him dying, is that justice? or is justice something else and who decides what is justice? is it just him going to jail, them nearly losing their career, them putting a lot of their money into causes for victims subjected to the act they did. this is probably what should be the question what is justice to a victim in these cases. because clearly a lot of people are all over the place with that.

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There is no justice in the accident that claimed his life and the lives of several other innocent people and children. So let's not go there.

Justice would be him being held accountable by the law for the severity of the crime he committed. That didn't happen, full stop.

I mentioned Michael Vick in another thread as a celebrity who has has openly admitted he deserved the punishment for his crime, served the time and paid the price, and has turned his life around to passionately advocate for animal rights and to spend a massive amount of his time, money, and energy to ensure others never follow the dark path he took. He accepted every negative consequence for his actions.

But I don't know. The only person who knows if Kobe did enough to atone and bring "justice" to his victim is the victim herself.

 

[Deepwater]

No I can't say, of course. But If a settlement was reached, the victim has somewhat indicated that they intend to heal from thier suffering. It's horrible for her, and Kobe was a piece of shit for what he did, but having daughters of his own, I'm absolutely certain it haunts him everyday, and as long as that is felt, he's shown sincere remorse.

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I feel like we skip over the victim in these discussions when talking about Kobe "making amends" or some similar point. We haven't really factored how the lives of sexual assault victims in general are changed by the people who assaulted them. I think it's easy to say we should factor in that Kobe's life has been pretty "clean" or great since his rape case, but I think it's morally irresponsible to not include the victim somehow in your moral calculation.

so I mean, yeah Kobe's life has been great since Colorado. But what about the woman he raped? And I don't think this is a case of being offended on someone else's behalf but it's really missing from the majority of these conversations and you never once hear someone mention his victim when they talk about him doing great in life since then.

 

[WoahW]

No you see he paid for it... look he went from a multi-millionaire baseketball superstar to a multi-millionaire basketball superstar.... Consequences

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And what would you propose should have happened to him? Serious question if he goes to jail he loses money and his family most likely

Staying our he made money but started helping others around the globe and yesterday he lost his life and his daughters so that's a wash on the losing his family.

 

[Salsanta1373]

Lets play a hypothetical, your in LA yesterday on Kobe's death, and you went by the Staples Center with all the other mourners, would you bring up the rape?

 

[Helot_Azure]

This is absolutely getting off scott free.

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What's your alternative? Vigilante justice like how they used to do black men accused of raping white women?

 

[Tawpgun]

Kobe was beloved for the many things he did for his community and seemed to have genuinely changed into a family man after he retired. If it were someone like Ben Roethlisberger, people would be cheering on his death and be applauded for it.

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This is my take.

I do think its possible to revere a basketball legend and still bring up his sexual assault case.

After the case was settled it does seem clear that he did change. He should have been punished harsher for what happened but he did seemingly redeem himself and has done a plethora of good.

At what point do we accept redemption?

 

[Coyote Starrk]

The only way Kobe "paid" for his rape was the $3 million or so he paid the victim the civil suit, which given how he was worth half a billion or so, is the equivalent of tossing his pocket change at her face.

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I am in no way saying that his suffering was equal to the victim or enough for what he was accused of doing, but he suffered a whole lot more consequences than just the money that he paid in the civil suit. He lost millions in endorsements, his marriage nearly crumbled, and the allegations have haunted him and his career ever since. So it was alot more than just the civil suit.

 

[excelsiorlef]

He didn't just rape her, he ran her name through the mud.

 

[Nameless]

This thread/topic sorta speaks to a problem I have with online discourse in general, not just ERA. There's a lot of taking the moral high ground in bad faith as a means to troll, condescend, and/or score an easy 'win'. Anyone dare call you out or disagree on any level, and they're immediately accused of supporting whatever the fucked up thing is. It's shitty and prevents things from being discussed with the nuance/complexity they often deserve.

Like I don't give a fuck about Justin Beiber and never bring him up or think about him. But if he died suddenly tommorow and I seek out his fans while they're in shock trying to process what happened, and start calling him a racist POS, even if I'm not wrong, I know full well what I'm doing and how shitty it is.

 

[excelsiorlef]

And what would you propose should have happened to him? Serious question if he goes to jail he loses money and his family most likely

Staying our he made money but started helping others around the globe and yesterday he lost his life and his daughters so that's a wash on the losing his family.

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So you're saying it's good he didn't suffer legal consequences for rape?

 

[Deepwater]

Lets play a hypothetical, your in LA yesterday on Kobe's death, and you went by the Staples Center with all the other mourners, would you bring up the rape?

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do you think this is an accurate analogy to what's happening right now though?

 

[cartographer]

Also, for those wondering how the loved ones of the people who died in the helicopter crash would feel if they saw these comments, please consider if what you post in here is going to make victims of rape and sexual assault less likely to come forward by throwing doubt or downplaying the validity of a rape that a person admitted to.

Maybe loved ones of the victims of the crash are reading ERA. I can't imagine what they are going through. I know sexual assault and rape victims are reading this thread. And much of it isn't helping.

 

[Daysean]

Lets play a hypothetical, your in LA yesterday on Kobe's death, and you went by the Staples Center with all the other mourners, would you bring up the rape?

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would you do this thing
no i aint playing no damn hypothetical with you
ole "let me play devil's advocate" ass

 

[liquidmetal14]

I feel like all this hoopla we went over with 10 years ago. The man was a legendary athlete and great father. Not much else to say right now.

I feel empathetic towards and victims of wrong. I'm just finding it hard to regurgitate things from that long ago with death.

 

[El Bombastico]

He didn't just rape her, he ran her name through the mud.

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Yeah but his wife almost left him and he lost endorsements so that makes it okay

 

[excelsiorlef]

What's your alternative? Vigilante justice like how they used to do black men accused of raping white women?

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And thus the conceit is revealed... you think she's a liar.

 

[LastCaress]

If he did rape someone then he deserves all the shit he gets. I don't have a problem forgetting/forgiving most non violent crimes, but I'm ok with never glossing over something like rape.

 

[Snagret]

Kobe didn't went to jail. Saying he "paid" for his "mistake", it's frankly insulting to the accuser

Edit. Added quotations to "mistake" because fuck you, if you use the term mistake to refer to rape

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Yeah, there was a blog posted on the front page that put it very well:

We can — we must — assess the ways in which the rich and famous are able to exploit our admiration of their talents to pound into the ground anyone who might threaten their fame and reputation, how they so often bypass accountability and we just let them because, well, they're so talented, or so attractive, or their politics line up with ours, or they handle a ball so well.

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Kobe was able to strong-arm his victim into a settlement and essentially watched the whole thing disappear with little effect on his career or public image in the long run. His a case is a complicated one, in that he did a decent amount of charity work in the following years and "settled down" as a family man but the fact remains, he raped a woman and did everything he could to avoid facing justice and a culture of celebrity worship and the rich being above the law allowed him to do so.

The people bringing up his living family as a reason we shouldn't talk about this come across as really disingenuous to me. His family can have all the grieving and privacy they want, no one is breaking into their home and forcing them to talk about this. They have their space just as we have our space to talk about unjustice of the Kobe rape case.

 

[Oreiller]

and this is totally fine, but perception seems like he deserved this death. so what is it really? because he never saw a jail cell and if thats what it was i can totally understand it.

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I mean, I know some said that in the other thread yesterday but I'm not sure anyone expressed (or even implied) this opinion here.

 

[WoahW]

So you're saying it's good he didn't suffer legal consequences for rape?

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Not at all I'm simply comparing scenarios and asking your thoughts which you've left out completely for some reason

 

[Mekanos]

I feel like we skip over the victim in these discussions when talking about Kobe "making amends" or some similar point. We haven't really factored how the lives of sexual assault victims in general are changed by the people who assaulted them. I think it's easy to say we should factor in that Kobe's life has been pretty "clean" or great since his rape case, but I think it's morally irresponsible to not include the victim somehow in your moral calculation.

so I mean, yeah Kobe's life has been great since Colorado. But what about the woman he raped? And I don't think this is a case of being offended on someone else's behalf but it's really missing from the majority of these conversations and you never once hear someone mention his victim when they talk about him doing great in life since then.

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Yeah, this is my stance. Unfortunately, anything she says would cause her to get mobbed and harassed. It's my hope that she can somehow make peace, even if we don't hear about it.

 

[Envelope]

I feel like all this hoopla we went over with 10 years ago. The man was a legendary athlete and great father. Not much else to say right now.

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Clearly there's a lot more to be said about the "hoopla"

 

[platocplx]

There is no justice in the accident that claimed his life and the lives of several other innocent people and children. So let's not go there.

Justice would be him being held accountable by the law for the severity of the crime he committed. That didn't happen, full stop.

I mentioned Michael Vick in another thread as a celebrity who has has openly admitted he deserved the punishment for his crime, served the time and paid the price, and has turned his life around to passionately advocate for animal rights and to spend a massive amount of his time, money, and energy to ensure others never follow the dark path he took. He accepted every negative consequence for his actions.

But I don't know. The only person who knows if Kobe did enough to atone and bring "justice" to his victim is the victim herself.

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So if he went to jail then you feel that justice was served or would it be better if restitution was paid to the person? or both? and I totally agree that jail probably should've happened for what happened. but as you said end of the day its up to the victim and no one truly knows if restitution was enough for her, or his public statement admitting fault etc. and i feel like people are applying their own forms of what they think is justice in this case, while also looking to equate them to a serial predator who shows no sign of ever even admitting they did anything wrong and would fight tooth and nail (cosby willing to die in jail before admitting fault) and thats where I dont agree, on top of the more celebratory death pieces.

 

[Xando]

I think any "fuck up" that results in ruined lives is probably fair game for the rest of your life, and after. It's as much a part of his legacy as his basketball career.

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It's a tough question for sure but i was brought up in a system (I recognize this might be different in the US) that teached us if a person works for his/her rehabilitation society should give said person a second chance even if you kill someone (Unless you're a threat to society of course).

 

[Deleted member 60096]

This thread/topic sorta speaks to a problem I have with online discourse in general, not just ERA. There's a lot of taking the moral high ground in bad faith as a means to troll, condescend, and/or score an easy 'win'. Anyone dare call you out or disagree on any level, and they're immediately accused of supporting whatever the fucked up thing is. It's shitty and prevents things from being discussed with the nuance/complexity they often deserve.

Like I don't give a fuck about Justin Beiber and never bring him up or think about him. But if he died suddenly tommorow and I seek out his fans while they're in shock trying to process what happened, and start calling him a racist POS, even if I'm not wrong, I know full well what I'm doing and how shitty it is.

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How is this thread seeking out his fans? I mean sure he has fans on here but this isn't a basketball forum nor a Kobe forum