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Vice: Reporters and Activists Are Being Harassed for Saying Kobe Bryant Was Credibly Accused of Rape (Read Staff Posts)
- Thread starter Syriel
- Start date
I used the wording that I did because he was not convinced of rape and all charges against him were dropped. I was not there. I do not know what happened. I am aware of the accusations and of the details surrounding the case but I cannot call him a definitive rapist or serial abuser.
Just as I could not say that Aziz was a rapist or committed sexual assault even if accused of doing so.
I also mentioned how long ago it was because he is being lumped in with serial abusers that committed assaults for untold years before they were even made public or looked upon as an issue within the public.
Holy hell, I had no idea about any of this! Thanks for the heads up.
Not to defend them, but I had always assumed that Dave was just reading excerpts from articles to tell a story to Gareth, but this seems to be on a different level.
no matter how many days after? Hm, kind of a weird rule tbh
so the Cosby/Weinstein/Trump death threads will be like 2 pages then locked?
You will see this in any black celebrity's death. Them leaping to attack.
There's a good argument to be made that he never should have been given the opportunity to make any of those changes.
The two tweets on the last page that discuss the issue in a mature way seem like a good way to address it:
Someone else on the web said it better than I could write, I've felt a ton of conflict for this reason, but while Kobe made press, there was a lot more here to mourn.
Shit like this, on the other hand, absolutely deserves to be banned:
All that being said, though, the Washington Post should NOT be suspending their reporter for that tweet. That's pretty inexcusable.
I'll note right up front that my thoughts on the matter are absolutely, 100% entirely insignificant. It's not really worth me typing anything to be displayed publicly. But since I'm here and I have some reaction I'm going to foolishly type up some short thoughts and hit the "Post Reply" button.
Really, I just feel kind off weird in these situations. Regardless of who Kobe is or what he did the helicopter crash is an absolute tragedy. That's the starting point. Moving on, I wasn't even a Lakers fan or anything. So it's not like I have any burning desire to deify him because he was a really good basketball player. As it pertains to the rape accusation and civil suit, it's hard to brush something like that aside. But at the same time -- particularly given the passage of time and the fact that I don't really think I'm the person to adjudicate these matters to begin with -- it's hard for me to figure out where to land.
Like, being good at basketball doesn't mean he should get off scot-free from having committed rape. But I also feel really, really fucking uncomfortable acting like this is some sort of deserved outcome from having been accused of something 16 years ago. "Believe women." OK. Sure. I have no problem believing that he committed rape/sexual assault. Maybe that means he doesn't deserve the worship he's getting in light of having his life tragically cut short. But at the same time I feel really uncomfortable asserting that we have to highlight this transgression. It borders too closely on feeling like this is a deserved outcome. "Fuck that guy! He did something bad a decade and a half ago!"
I'm just kind of meandering and not really making any sort of concrete point. I just feel like thinking out loud here that trying to be the arbiter of Kobe's moral worth right now makes me really, really uncomfortable. And I say that as someone that has no attachment to his basketball career at all.
Really, I just feel kind off weird in these situations. Regardless of who Kobe is or what he did the helicopter crash is an absolute tragedy. That's the starting point. Moving on, I wasn't even a Lakers fan or anything. So it's not like I have any burning desire to deify him because he was a really good basketball player. As it pertains to the rape accusation and civil suit, it's hard to brush something like that aside. But at the same time -- particularly given the passage of time and the fact that I don't really think I'm the person to adjudicate these matters to begin with -- it's hard for me to figure out where to land.
Like, being good at basketball doesn't mean he should get off scot-free from having committed rape. But I also feel really, really fucking uncomfortable acting like this is some sort of deserved outcome from having been accused of something 16 years ago. "Believe women." OK. Sure. I have no problem believing that he committed rape/sexual assault. Maybe that means he doesn't deserve the worship he's getting in light of having his life tragically cut short. But at the same time I feel really uncomfortable asserting that we have to highlight this transgression. It borders too closely on feeling like this is a deserved outcome. "Fuck that guy! He did something bad a decade and a half ago!"
I'm just kind of meandering and not really making any sort of concrete point. I just feel like thinking out loud here that trying to be the arbiter of Kobe's moral worth right now makes me really, really uncomfortable. And I say that as someone that has no attachment to his basketball career at all.
I mean, it's an unfortunate reality. He's basically describing date rape. Probably goes on hundreds of times per semester at each college and university around the US. Not talking about being drugged. But being under the influence and two parties not on the same affirmative page of consent. Add it it being 17 years ago and there not being nearly as much of a push to recognizing what date rape situations were like.
Even though yes it was obviously wrong and should have been recognized.
Oof. Rape is incredibly different than 99% of people who get put into prison that aren't murderers. This isn't the topic for that, but equivocating ex-cons not getting jobs with not letting people "get away" with rape is pretty gross.
Read: You can do great things and still be a rapist. The two are not incompatible nor do they cancel each other out. You can acknowledge that someone has done something good while also decrying their foul actions.
John McCain's death thread had people dancing on his grave. They were banned. So I don't think your thought is correct.
People say this all the time about tragic or wrongful events. Someone gets killed and people say wait before you get "too political" and then all the fans in denial of the issues involved in the legacy get to plug their ears and move on. Nothing changes if people stay quiet about wrong
Interesting you use the other deaths as a shield when you quoted and trashed someone for bringing it up before we ever had confirmation of his daughter being there and well before we knew there were several others on board.
I hope his family is looked after in their grief. But let's not pretend people here knew Kobe. You clearly didn't even know the story you've decided to try and sweep away.
What I like about this is it is pretty clear what you want is Kobe to be treated like Bowie and not Bowie treated like Kobe
I'm honestly not surprised, and this is why its hard to talk about these things because peopel jump the shark and then truly act in one sense "Well if they did x y z they could be a good person again" then "there is nothing they can do ever" I honestly dont understand how we can progress as a society if we are not allowed to address these issues but also offer avenues of rehabilitation for the people who commit certain acts.
Because he basically admitted it? He admitted the victim didn't consent in her own eyes, which would indicate that he raped her
I tend to think it's a little grim to talk about in the immediate aftermath of a helicopter crash that killed 8 other people, including some children, one being his own but I didn't really agree with silencing those who spoke up about it. I personally wasn't that affected by the news until the potential that all four of his children were on the bird - that just one of them was on it was heartbreaking.
It's pretty morbid to tell grieving people "I'm glad that he died" but it's definitely a discussion worth having in good faith. I don't see any reason for the allegations to be completely false, but I suppose all I can hope for is the victim found some peace after the settlement. His legacy, for better or worse, is all he has now, and it's worth being discussed in full.
It's pretty morbid to tell grieving people "I'm glad that he died" but it's definitely a discussion worth having in good faith. I don't see any reason for the allegations to be completely false, but I suppose all I can hope for is the victim found some peace after the settlement. His legacy, for better or worse, is all he has now, and it's worth being discussed in full.
I don't think there is anything wrong with posters not feeling sad either but that's not really the issue that was bothering people. It was people jumping into the thread to bring up his rape case when multiple innocents were being confirmed dead and trying to shame people on how they were handling complicated emotions.
The fact is Kobe meant a lot to fans and communities due to his work and it's understandable people are struggling and grieving. Yes there will be people excusing or ignoring what he did(again I think forgiveness should come from the victim so if she feels he has done enough then I support whatever she decides) but overall this people in shock over a major death that also took the lives of innocents in a terrifying way. Let people have some time before to process.
When you buy someone's silence it never looks good.
You have to wonder what's worth paying to hide that makes you look worse.
In general the cult of personality is a fucking awful thing and it can be especially awful for big name sports stars that people seem to invest so much of themselves in. Makes people act a fool for someone who they barely know because they were good at something.
I have no idea how to remember someone like Kobe Bryant. He is an admitted rapist but then dedicated the rest of his life to his family and helping others. He ruined one person's life but positively impacted millions of other lives. He was both a villain and a hero.
So my major issue with dragging up the rape accusations right now is innocent people were on that plane regardless if Kobe did it or not. His daughter doesn't deserve to be drowned out by that and neither do the rest of the victims. Let the families grieve and we can examine Kobe's legacy, rightfully so, at a later time.
Lots of people labeling a man that wasnt convicted of rape as a rapist... hrmm.
Nah, they banned people who were celebratory of the death and vitriolic. They expressly allowed criticism of his complicated legacy and failings throughout
Not sure why we're comparing elected public officials that are hellbent on making the lives of millions worse to a person who made a terrible decision 17 years ago that was litigated quite publicly and had since appeared to reform.
There's definitely some evidence there, but he never admitted to rape at all unless I missed something. Not sure where you got that idea.
The charges were dropped because his defense team bullied the victim into being too scared to testify by slut-shaming her, leaking her name, and attacking her mental health. The prosecution couldn't move forward without the victim being willing to take the stand.
We have his statements, for starters. She did not view the encounter as consensual and he acknowledged this.
This is precisely why it was settled in civil court.
It was messy and it was very public.
We know enough to know most of the picture, if not all of it. Regardless, his death and the deaths of the others remains horrific and tragic.
This right here. It's fine to acknowledge faults (there's an appropriate time for this), but I think one of the convictions causing people to say what they're saying about Kobe is deep down they feel people still over-glorify celebrities and they just want to always be a voice to speak out for the defenseless.
Now in this instance, I can't tell how much of the reactions are due to people not keeping up with Kobe after canceling him 15+ years ago and not recognizing everything that has happened with him since.
So remember him as such? I don't see why it's so hard to remember that you can do heinous things and also do great things.
Staff post - discussion guidelines
Official Staff Communication
We won't be locking this thread unless hostilities get out of hand. While Kobe did a lot of good in the world, and was beloved by a great many people as a result, that does not erase the hurt he has inflicted on others. While a moment where nine people, three of whom were children, died horribly is not the place or time to bring up the bad he has done, it is a part of his legacy and deserves to be discussed and not swept under the rug.
Kobe was accused of rape and all the good he's done doesn't erase that. This thread will remain open to discuss the accusations against him and allow those affected by similar horrific events to speak their piece.
Kobe was accused of rape and all the good he's done doesn't erase that. This thread will remain open to discuss the accusations against him and allow those affected by similar horrific events to speak their piece.
He stated he knows she did not consent... what do you think that means?
its... complicated, speaking about these things when emotions are high and so many people are involved.
but they should be allowed to speak freely without fear.
but they should be allowed to speak freely without fear.
We always talk about people if they commit a crime, lets see if they can rehabilate themselves, do better by others. I feel like Kobe has done that, as a father, as a member of the community, with youth groups? Yes, there was some fuzzy stuff that happened 17 years ago, but he kept his nose clean and gave back to youth/community. No shame in paying respect to that.
The fact that people are lumping him in with Cosby and Weinstein is completely asinine and a slap to the face of his family and fans.
Kobe lived an exemplary life post accusation. He was a great father and helped/inspired countless people from around the world.
Use your fucking brain folks.
Kobe lived an exemplary life post accusation. He was a great father and helped/inspired countless people from around the world.
Use your fucking brain folks.
A statement issued through his attorney:
"Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter."
I mean we're not talking about legal guilt here - and as a lawyer I'm sure you'll know how messed up that case was - but of course it was a carefully worded statement, but you know exactly what he's saying with it. "I thought it was consensual" is better than "I knew it wasn't", but c'mon. Reframing rape as one sided consent is a neat trick but it's just that.
It's crazy seeing the hoops people will jump through to excuse rape. There's no such thing is character assassinating someone by point out the facts of what they did.
Yep it happened here yesterday with vitriol on both sides. But the person who got banned quickly in that thread was someone posting an NBA Courtside N64 gif lol
He admitted to having non-consensual sex, what are you even talking about?
Genuine question, do people think if CR7 were to suddenly pass away fans would act any differently?
These individuals are icons to hundreds millions of people around the world. Emotions are raw. You are free to speak your mind but don't be surprised if fanatics don't want to hear it. Especially immediately after their demise.
These individuals are icons to hundreds millions of people around the world. Emotions are raw. You are free to speak your mind but don't be surprised if fanatics don't want to hear it. Especially immediately after their demise.
It's not an outlier in terms of sports or general celebrity granting a smokescreen. With Cosby, Jackson, Polanski, Loius CK, Weinstein, we've seen again and again that sometimes being credibly accused isn't enough and the mix of fan fervor and celebrity privilege will work in tandem to tamp down exposing of horrendous behavior. And we can never predict the tipping point for actual justice either. Sometimes it feels like a crap shoot when people in these positions do get their legal comeuppance/victims do get justice or at least are heard. Sometimes it's before a death, sometimes after and sometimes never.
People really think that one bad thing erases all the good you could ever do. People are incredibly complicated.
I don't think minutes after his death was the best time to bring it up again, but neither do I like how his fans pounced on anyone who dared to and basically demanded that mods nuke them.
It didn't strike me as people who just wanted time to mourn. It felt like rabid sports fans who didn't want to hear about it, period.
It didn't strike me as people who just wanted time to mourn. It felt like rabid sports fans who didn't want to hear about it, period.
Calling rape 'fuzzy stuff' is probably not the best word choice considering the case against him and his published apology
I was using it as an example that mods tend to keep 'death threads' free of the non-sense/Drive By posts etc.
It's fine if it's done tactfully.
Some of those examples in the op, not quite, but others have been on par with what I've seen from multiple sports shows, and articles discussing it the same way.
No one is saying it can't be discussed, but to use it as some kind of a gotcha doesn't feel like the right approach.
Some of those examples in the op, not quite, but others have been on par with what I've seen from multiple sports shows, and articles discussing it the same way.
No one is saying it can't be discussed, but to use it as some kind of a gotcha doesn't feel like the right approach.