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VG247: "Game developers, it’s time to stop listening to the fans"
- Thread starter zombiejames
- Start date
Yeeah.. that take is fucking crazy. MGS4 was an amazing game and even though I did like MGSV, I would choose 4 over it anyday..
Seems most everyone here has covered my thoughts.
I've always really disliked the "People disagree with me, therefore I must be right" logic. Not sure if that's what is happening here, but seems weirdly common when people write intentionally divisive articles like this.
I've always really disliked the "People disagree with me, therefore I must be right" logic. Not sure if that's what is happening here, but seems weirdly common when people write intentionally divisive articles like this.
Fans know when they aren't having fun. Not having fun is not good for business. Doesn't take a fucking rocket scientist to figure that out, or to be "in the industry."
You see this all the time with poorly run live service games. Dev does something incredibly dumb that breaks the game or the meta in a catastrophic way > walks it back > never addresses not listening to feedback to begin with > cycle begins anew.
You see this all the time with poorly run live service games. Dev does something incredibly dumb that breaks the game or the meta in a catastrophic way > walks it back > never addresses not listening to feedback to begin with > cycle begins anew.
![[Sigma]](/data/avatar/31551380172/27345-m.jpg){kind=avatar}
A lot of the current backlash again Gamefreak currently is basically a direct result of them refusing to acknowledge the fanbase in any meaningful capacity.
its been building up for years honestly... gamefreak is super ignorant of fans and what happened with Shield/Sword was the last straw.
Didn't Valve's new card game fail due to many things one of not listening to fan feedback from the beta?
Ya kinda need to listen and take what works. If people are not having fun then they won't play your game.
Hell DMC5 listened and its excellent.
Ya kinda need to listen and take what works. If people are not having fun then they won't play your game.
Hell DMC5 listened and its excellent.
Focus testing and fan criticism are far removed from one another.
100% correct.
It makes you an authority on what you enjoy in said games.
Nah this is totally wrong, ask anyone who has ever made a game or done user testing of any kind and they'll tell you that people are always right about how they feel and usually wrong about why.
Interpreting feedback and making it into valuable actionable information is a core skill for any designer.
For the most part, I agree. A handful games like Sonic Mania, RE2Remake, DMC5, etc. don't really make up for the fact that 95% of gamers who complain really don't know what the fuck they're talking about or what they want. Occasionally you get some feedback worth listening to, but most fan feedback should double as toilet paper.
It really depends on a case by case basis.
A good example of listening to fans is Bethesda changing the end of Fallout 3. You couldn't send the ghoul or super mutant(WHO WAS INTRODUCED TO YOU BY GETTING THE GECK FROM A HIGHLY LETHAL, IRRADIATED AREA) companion into the lethal radiation area because of "Destiny" nonsense. There was no defending that braindead logic and it's good it was changed for the DLC.
A good example of listening to fans is Bethesda changing the end of Fallout 3. You couldn't send the ghoul or super mutant(WHO WAS INTRODUCED TO YOU BY GETTING THE GECK FROM A HIGHLY LETHAL, IRRADIATED AREA) companion into the lethal radiation area because of "Destiny" nonsense. There was no defending that braindead logic and it's good it was changed for the DLC.
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Hard agree with MGS4, a game that didn't need to exist, whose creator didn't want to make it, and incredibly cynical in its catering to fan demand.
The rest though? Hard to say it was any one thing, in fact I'd say I'm the case of BioWare it was management and deadlines that killed Andromeda and Anthem rather than memes of all things.
The rest though? Hard to say it was any one thing, in fact I'd say I'm the case of BioWare it was management and deadlines that killed Andromeda and Anthem rather than memes of all things.
Even if I agreed, the onus is on the developer to make a competent game. The feedback they're receiving isn't at fault.
Oh for sure I think getting fan feedback is immensely valuable like any other feedback. What they do with it is on them.
Not sure how you can disagree with what I said tho, it's kinda just s fact of game developmen that any developer will tell you.
I believe I can competently decide what I do and don't like about a particular video game. I believe many others can as well. There may be some elements that I can't adequately describe, but the idea that I have no idea why I don't enjoy something seems nonsensical to me.
Fan feedback is important as it can help improve some aspects, but you can't do anything for bad game design.
How anyone can look at ME3's ending and think it deserved anything but the treatment it got is beyond me. Kind of invalidates the entire article for me, not that it was that well written in the first place. (Although I do agree MGS 4 was the worst. V would have taken that crown if it wasn't for it's gameplay.)
honestly the only MGS game I'd rather replay over MGS4 is MGS2. I preferred 4 over all the rest, especially 5.
This ^^
I sometimes chop movies. If I need advice on software or certain editing techniques, I NEVER ask someone who has no idea how to edit. I seek knowledge from other pros who have a "better" understanding of the craft than I do. Not audience members. They count on me to know how to do my job. That goes for every kind of media artist out there. Trust your vision!
I go both ways on this, as a creator you need to execute your vision, fans have opinions but they are not the ones making the game so you need to have enough experience and competence to walk that line.
Otherwise you get this
You also need to understand what is the audience for your product, if your game is niche or specific to a fanbase you should veer in one direction, if youre trying to be a 10 million unit seller there are some concessions that usually need to get made.
Also, dont fall for the PR too much. Kojima makes games for himself first and foremost. Him listening to fans the most was MGS5 and people like that game plenty
Otherwise you get this
You also need to understand what is the audience for your product, if your game is niche or specific to a fanbase you should veer in one direction, if youre trying to be a 10 million unit seller there are some concessions that usually need to get made.
Also, dont fall for the PR too much. Kojima makes games for himself first and foremost. Him listening to fans the most was MGS5 and people like that game plenty
Listen to the corporations, they know what they're doing. Just consume their products and never question change. That's how it works, right?
Cut to the ending narration still calling you a coward for not nearly killing yourself for no good reason just to punch in a code. Though that was probably Bethesda being unwilling to drag the voice actor to the audio booth just to record an extra variation they didn't think of the first time.
A lot of comes from the beginning as well.
Itsuno was talking about how first and foremost he wanted to make the DMC game he wanted a make. A pure action game. And what really motivated him to get the project green-lit was that was what fans wanted as well. So it aligned perfectly.
Much the same way with RE7 and RE2. Both the developers and the fans wanted to get away from the action heavy RE5 and RE6.
The problem really comes is when the developers start up a project that nobody really wants, then you have concern for a lot of compromise which could affect overall game quality.
Itsuno was talking about how first and foremost he wanted to make the DMC game he wanted a make. A pure action game. And what really motivated him to get the project green-lit was that was what fans wanted as well. So it aligned perfectly.
Much the same way with RE7 and RE2. Both the developers and the fans wanted to get away from the action heavy RE5 and RE6.
The problem really comes is when the developers start up a project that nobody really wants, then you have concern for a lot of compromise which could affect overall game quality.
Making a point using an opinion as fact, doesn't do your argument any favors.
I agree there's cases where devs need to ignore fans.
Biowares decline in quality however, are not the fault of fans and suggesting they were is really silly. It's most silly with anthem, which was very obviously not something made to appeal fans but a play for a new audience.
Edit: also, players don't have a duty to like a devs output. If a dev ignores feedback because he thinks he has a better solution - he should. If players end up not liking that solution that's not a failing of the players though.
Biowares decline in quality however, are not the fault of fans and suggesting they were is really silly. It's most silly with anthem, which was very obviously not something made to appeal fans but a play for a new audience.
Edit: also, players don't have a duty to like a devs output. If a dev ignores feedback because he thinks he has a better solution - he should. If players end up not liking that solution that's not a failing of the players though.
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I think there's a huge stretch between "listen to fans" and "obey to fans".
I think there are things were external input is important. Namely gameplay mechanics and feel. Difficulty balance.
It's always important to listen and to bring up all you've heard and try to find a solution from there.
But there are also things that should be about the creators only: Mainly story bits, characters and such. But even then, I feel like sometimes, external input can also be important here when creators stray too much away. It could be about representation issues, cultural differences and such.
That headline is inflammatory indeed. Even though the article is more nuances, I feel like the whole premise is, sorry for the harsh words, really stupid.
The gaming industy is a funny one when it comes to fan feedbacks. In every other industries, companies spend a shiton of money to know the customers opinions and habits. They buy lists from advertisement companies to know what customer usually likes. They spend money through survey companies and often promises freebies to customers just to know what they think. Heck some companies goes as far as spying on their customers to get important datas.
But the gaming industry is the one where publishers, press and sometimes indie developpers can be against receiving those inputs, when every other industries consider it extremely valuable and spend millions to get that, it sometimes feels like, not always of course, that the gaming industry wash their hands away from those datas.
I think there are things were external input is important. Namely gameplay mechanics and feel. Difficulty balance.
It's always important to listen and to bring up all you've heard and try to find a solution from there.
But there are also things that should be about the creators only: Mainly story bits, characters and such. But even then, I feel like sometimes, external input can also be important here when creators stray too much away. It could be about representation issues, cultural differences and such.
That headline is inflammatory indeed. Even though the article is more nuances, I feel like the whole premise is, sorry for the harsh words, really stupid.
The gaming industy is a funny one when it comes to fan feedbacks. In every other industries, companies spend a shiton of money to know the customers opinions and habits. They buy lists from advertisement companies to know what customer usually likes. They spend money through survey companies and often promises freebies to customers just to know what they think. Heck some companies goes as far as spying on their customers to get important datas.
But the gaming industry is the one where publishers, press and sometimes indie developpers can be against receiving those inputs, when every other industries consider it extremely valuable and spend millions to get that, it sometimes feels like, not always of course, that the gaming industry wash their hands away from those datas.
Oh the gaming industry does this... for microtransaction spending habits. They put out patents for this. Hire psychologists. Attend seminars.
They will gladly cater to the whales. The rest of us? Not so much.
I agree with your post though as I do with most of the posts I have seen from you. Just that one bit illuminates what they really care about - reoccurring spending.
What.... I'm pretty sure the reason why the Xbox1 reveal was so bad was because they DIDN'T listen to their fans -_-
And imo MGS4 was far better than V which although gameplay wise was excellent, it was so bloated and lifeless that it should've just been a new IP.
DMC5, No Mans Sky, Tekken 5, etc. so many games that went for what fans wanted and were better for it.
And imo MGS4 was far better than V which although gameplay wise was excellent, it was so bloated and lifeless that it should've just been a new IP.
DMC5, No Mans Sky, Tekken 5, etc. so many games that went for what fans wanted and were better for it.
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Mental Gymnastics: The Article
... I wonder if there is an equivalent of the Razzies for media?
... I wonder if there is an equivalent of the Razzies for media?
Someone should send him a link Jason Schrier's article.
Totally the fans' fault. Not an incompetent management that overworked developers in a toxic work environment. Nah.
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IMO Anthem is what happens when you let creative people take control without anyone actually there to reign them in and hold everyone accountable.
