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VG247: "Game developers, it’s time to stop listening to the fans"
- Thread starter zombiejames
- Start date
as with everything in life.....everything should be taken in moderation. The fans are the ones who play your games and they tend to know why they like playing it. But also they don't always grasp the dev side of things or just simply the creative process....
so yeah a little bit of both is the key.
ignoring the fans is how EA fucked up a lot this gen. But overly catering to everyone leaves the game an unfocused mess that no one is happy with. Will say the latter is waaaay better than the former tho.
so yeah a little bit of both is the key.
ignoring the fans is how EA fucked up a lot this gen. But overly catering to everyone leaves the game an unfocused mess that no one is happy with. Will say the latter is waaaay better than the former tho.
I mean it is probably not a surprise that this is sometimes true and sometimes not. Sometimes developers should listen to their fans about how their games can be improved. But other times developers need to take a hard stance and trust that their creative vision is worth presenting.
For instance, I personally love the weapon degradation system in BOTW. I found that it forced me to think about my weapon usage and to try a wide variety of weapons throughout my play through. However, there is a large portion of the fanbase that hates this feature and I would not be surprised if it was removed from the sequel.
For instance, I personally love the weapon degradation system in BOTW. I found that it forced me to think about my weapon usage and to try a wide variety of weapons throughout my play through. However, there is a large portion of the fanbase that hates this feature and I would not be surprised if it was removed from the sequel.
Framing anthem being bad as a consequence of the fan reaction to how bad andromeda was is some shit
All due respect to this forum and the internet in general, I'd rather devs just stick to their vision (for the most part). There's too many people out there with varying levels of commitment to the game to sit there and worry about every opinion
You literally can't solely listen to fans.
1. You'd be driven crazy and just end up canceling your project.
2. It'd never be done because complaints are INFINITE
3. Nobody agrees on anything
I do like Murray's quote that people will notice the issues, but wont ever have decent solutions. But that's generally the case that we KNOW what the issues are, it's generally seeing if it matters or not (that's the hardest part).
And there are janky-af games that are beloved by fans where they look over a lot of things, so it's hard to gauge how important certain things are during development.
1. You'd be driven crazy and just end up canceling your project.
2. It'd never be done because complaints are INFINITE
3. Nobody agrees on anything
I do like Murray's quote that people will notice the issues, but wont ever have decent solutions. But that's generally the case that we KNOW what the issues are, it's generally seeing if it matters or not (that's the hardest part).
And there are janky-af games that are beloved by fans where they look over a lot of things, so it's hard to gauge how important certain things are during development.
I disagree on this statement.
Sonic Mania was a game made for fans and it is the best Sonic game to come out since 2011.
It depends on the context and what the developer thinks. They shouldn't take feeback as gospel true, but when alot of people are saying the same thing there might be some truth to it and it should be looked into.
Sonic Mania was a game made for fans and it is the best Sonic game to come out since 2011.
It depends on the context and what the developer thinks. They shouldn't take feeback as gospel true, but when alot of people are saying the same thing there might be some truth to it and it should be looked into.
Wow. This is a terrible article.
MGS4 is the worst MGS game? By what metric? Personal opinion?
And blaming Andromeda for the mess that was Anthem? I feel like not having personality was the least of the game's issues.
Finally, bringing up the Xbox One launch? Are you serious? Do you really want to champion removing consumer rights?
bleah.
MGS4 is the worst MGS game? By what metric? Personal opinion?
And blaming Andromeda for the mess that was Anthem? I feel like not having personality was the least of the game's issues.
Finally, bringing up the Xbox One launch? Are you serious? Do you really want to champion removing consumer rights?
bleah.
I do agree with the sentiment. The fans are mostly idiot sheep offering inane comments on things they know nothing about. I don't really care for the support or examples used in the article though.
I do have an infinite amount of complaints I could bring up in regards to BotW with the understanding that the underlying reason for all of them stem from the fact that they decided to make the game open world. The solution is to go back to linear progression and compact environments.
I feel like that's the deciding factor for that particular game given the circumstances, so in this case I would say it's not actually hard to pinpoint the essence behind the debate between the various camps. People don't have the insight into game design to realize which factor is causing the issues, so you have to try to figure out what is causing fans to complain i.e identify the underlying issue that leads to them saying X and Y.
People accept the jank if the soul of the game is in the right place. Like, Minish Cap is not the best execution of the ALttP philosophy, but I am more positive towards it and the problems don't bother me as much. You can accept that compromises are made for the sake of expanding the audience, in this case the game being too easy, as long as the game is of the right kind. Then it becomes a matter of figuring out solutions that can satisfy both camps, which led to stuff like the optional 3 star coins embedded into each Mario level specifically to encourage expert play.
Versus listening and still going out of business like some studios.
same, I want a good idea executed well, not something that caters to ppl. If the idea is not for me, it's not for me.
i dont think being empathetic or thoughtful to the imaginary gamer is a bad thought process, a lot of good game mechanics and quality of life improvements, but I think it can lead you down a bad path if you don't temper it.
I used to play this moba called Heroes of the Storm and some of the worst decisions they made came from listening to loud gamerz (and also not listening to the ppl who played the game at a high level)
Those are some terrible examples and is some bad advice. Sure you can't always listen to fans, but these are the people that buy your games. If they put forward clear, valid and respectable points or constructive criticism it may behoove you to listen to them.
The thing about this short sighted article is that without fan input certain things will be ignored by developers. Heck with MCC alone you have...
- The MCC fixed and getting continues support
- Reach being added to the collection.
- A proper PC port with Steam support and future Halo titles guaranteed for PC.
MGS4 is silly but at least it isn't boring. I take it over 5 any day, so i just got my grips there. Otherwise, that's up for the devs to decide. I agree most of the fans dont know what makes a game good in practical terms, but doesn't mean you can't listen so simple user complains and identify system issues as a professional.
Not sure, the MGS community and critics overall certainly don't agree with him. Dropping that generally unsupportable hot take in a blog post saying "dont listen to fans because they dont know anything" is some rich irony though
Well.... I think it may have been a mistake to refer to Kirk in my post. Sure, he made some rather questionable articles as well as making questionable responses to people critiquing him.
But I'd prefer to not have him harassed due to his mannerisms
But I'd prefer to not have him harassed due to his mannerisms
So he's gloating he didn't do basic fact checking? What exactly do he get out of doing that besides making himself look like an arse on Twitter? That seems like something Vg247 wouldn't want.Same shit, different day:
If you are a person who creates ANY sort of media- be it games, machines, art, photography, etc, regardless of the scope you will get feedback from fans, critics, and the curious alike.
It's YOUR job to decide for yourself what works best for your game in correlation to the vision you set out to make and you can decided whether fan feedback is valid or not.
The definition between what's considered valid fan feedback and what's fan 'entitlement' are absolutely blurred to fuck and seems to determined on whether or not a collective individuals feels like a complaint others have matters TO THEM as opposed the game as a whole; even if you don't personally care about said feature.
Example: A lot of people in the Animal Crossing community complained about skin tones being an non-customizable option outside of 'tanning' in the sun all the time in game. If we take into the general percentage of people who would care about having darker skin tones (minorities) you can easily write off this complaint as not worth your time and isn't a problem or concern for the vast majority of the players, yet here we are with the next AC game heavily hinting that different skin tones will be a default thing you can customize. This is a great example of taking feedback from fans and the game better for it.
Then you have fan feedback like the Tifa debate in the Final Fantasy remake. (and a little bit of Garrett although that debacle isn't nearly as talked about much.) that devs can promptly ignore because it has no positive or negative effects on the game. Tifa having jello boobs the size of her head does nothing for the character and story. The creator himself already made a done and done statement on the matter. Barret will more than likely be dismissed and while I personally disagree for social and political reasons- his skin tone has no bearing on his character either and won't be negatively affected.
I think I'm kinda losing this comment so I'm gonna stop this here.
Final thoughts is that if you have 'fan feedback' to begin with that means you have a group of people who like your game enough to even give an input to begin with.
A game or game series that has a decreasing decline of fan feedback is also on decline in general. It means people stop giving a shit about whatever grievance they have with the game and are moving on to something else. (just my opinion.)
It's YOUR job to decide for yourself what works best for your game in correlation to the vision you set out to make and you can decided whether fan feedback is valid or not.
The definition between what's considered valid fan feedback and what's fan 'entitlement' are absolutely blurred to fuck and seems to determined on whether or not a collective individuals feels like a complaint others have matters TO THEM as opposed the game as a whole; even if you don't personally care about said feature.
Example: A lot of people in the Animal Crossing community complained about skin tones being an non-customizable option outside of 'tanning' in the sun all the time in game. If we take into the general percentage of people who would care about having darker skin tones (minorities) you can easily write off this complaint as not worth your time and isn't a problem or concern for the vast majority of the players, yet here we are with the next AC game heavily hinting that different skin tones will be a default thing you can customize. This is a great example of taking feedback from fans and the game better for it.
Then you have fan feedback like the Tifa debate in the Final Fantasy remake. (and a little bit of Garrett although that debacle isn't nearly as talked about much.) that devs can promptly ignore because it has no positive or negative effects on the game. Tifa having jello boobs the size of her head does nothing for the character and story. The creator himself already made a done and done statement on the matter. Barret will more than likely be dismissed and while I personally disagree for social and political reasons- his skin tone has no bearing on his character either and won't be negatively affected.
I think I'm kinda losing this comment so I'm gonna stop this here.
Final thoughts is that if you have 'fan feedback' to begin with that means you have a group of people who like your game enough to even give an input to begin with.
A game or game series that has a decreasing decline of fan feedback is also on decline in general. It means people stop giving a shit about whatever grievance they have with the game and are moving on to something else. (just my opinion.)
To be fair, while fans pushing Capcom to make RE2make was what helped it get off the ground, there was also a lot of fans (including myself) that were very adamant that it should remain in a classic RE-style. Where it was static camera angles like REmake. Capcom made the correct decision in going over the shoulder. So it's definitely a balancing act. Listening to fans can help, but you can't have them dictating every step of the game.
It's a weird situation with Mass Effect 3 often being considered the catalyst like it is in this article. Were some people overreacting to that game's ending? Sure.
But...the new ending they added to the game after all the controversy was actually so much better than what was in there originally.
So like, yeah, there are toxic people in the comments, but, feedback can lead to better results.
But...the new ending they added to the game after all the controversy was actually so much better than what was in there originally.
So like, yeah, there are toxic people in the comments, but, feedback can lead to better results.
*and to youtube "personalities" which are way worse than any "fans" could ever be.
But yeah , the combination of internet forums, which usually *do not* represent the the majority whatsoever, youtube and "patches" isn't a good one, they already killed fighting games (at least the 3D ones)
But yeah , the combination of internet forums, which usually *do not* represent the the majority whatsoever, youtube and "patches" isn't a good one, they already killed fighting games (at least the 3D ones)
Immensely disagree. Also MGS4 is my favorite MGS in the series even over MGSV so idk there buddy so what does that say? I can give him the mass effect 3 revised ending(to an extent), but outside of that no...just no.
u
Reciepts?
I recall the majority wanted either or/and 1) third person 2) third person w/ fixed cam bonus mode 3) 1st person 4) devs to do whats best.
Add all those people up and it was more than the 3rd person fixed camera or boycott crowd.
Reciepts?
I recall the majority wanted either or/and 1) third person 2) third person w/ fixed cam bonus mode 3) 1st person 4) devs to do whats best.
Add all those people up and it was more than the 3rd person fixed camera or boycott crowd.
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Its a trend I'm starting to see more and more of. Journalists using the extremes of twitter to somehow prove/support a thesis in their article. Or in this case to deflect a legitimate error.
I checked out of that article after the comment that what was wrong with ME Andromeda was facial animations. Yeah, facial and general animations were terrible.
However, let's not forget if horrible UI/UX (having to take your ship to orbit to read email when you have an AI in your head is special), bad writing/storytelling, tedious general gameplay (not fighting but grinding bases), gimped squad combat and interactions and more.
It was a terrible game that I couldn't bring myself to play for essentially free (Origin Access) even with mods.
However, let's not forget if horrible UI/UX (having to take your ship to orbit to read email when you have an AI in your head is special), bad writing/storytelling, tedious general gameplay (not fighting but grinding bases), gimped squad combat and interactions and more.
It was a terrible game that I couldn't bring myself to play for essentially free (Origin Access) even with mods.
Not listening to fans isn't the issue.Can someone at Sega make sure nobody at Sonic Team reads this article? Thanks
Its listening to them badly.
Examples in OP aren't great but I agree with the sentiment of not listening to fans wishes when it comes to creative direction, not just in games but films, books, etc. The vast majority of people have no understanding as to how said mediums work on a technical level and have no buisness telling those that do how to do their jobs.
I think while classic camera angle people were very, very vocal, there were more people like me who were clamoring for the OTS angle overall. We just weren't as ravenous about it. It could've easily ended up as first person like RE7.
Sonic Mania wasn't so much the result of listening to fans, and more the result of letting developers who understand Sonic design really well make a Sonic game. Of course, those developers are fans, but it's likely that plenty of people who worked on bad Sonic games are as well. The actual Sonic fanbase is super divided about what they want, Mania only really appeals to a part of it. And even that part is divided about what makes classic Sonic design good.Can someone at Sega make sure nobody at Sonic Team reads this article? Thanks
Any attempt to appeal to the whole Sonic fanbase wouldn't really work all that well cause it'd mean having to make a game with a bunch of completely different design goals that don't work well with eachother. It gets you games like Sonic Forces, which even if it had better controls and level design would be a mess.
Anyway that article isn't very good but I agree with its core point that developers generally shouldn't listen to how fans think games should be designed.
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I mean, yeah there will definitely be a sizable chunk of people not playing cloud games and such. Just not most, it would be (which mind you is still a lot) some. It's like people tend to forget the biggest selling/most played games around the world consist of fortnite. Shouldn't have to tell you what makes that game tic, and it's the most sought after game since slice bread that can ONLY be played online. Hate streaming love it, I couldn't care less. Except when we act like 95% of the games we play which dwarf games like ori and the blind forest aren't already online only. You think that sells more than COD black ops 4?? Hell nah. Say didgital streaming sucks, it's killing gaming, etc etc. To say "Most" people wouldn't agree/be capable of digital/online gaming is just delusional.
Even so, I wouldn't think MS or google or other tech giants would care to much about if Iran can stream the games as good as Canada can or something, focus will forever be on the big connected markets, and the "most" your referring to simply aren't it. Swear it's like sometimes I think people actively go out there way to diss what's popular just so they can prop there own opinion up. No ones saying no options just consume or any of that, he's just pointing out facts, we all laughed and criticized and look where we end up. Psnow, gamepass, google stadia, Apple Arcade, Amazon, even freaking Nintendo has a dedicated (shitty) online service, so despite what ya gamers are saying "most" or "some" can't or can do this, the market is CLEARLY saying otherwise.
Now about the thread lol, nah keep listening to fans. Make it 50/50, fans aren't developers whether they want to admit or not but they're still the ones that keep your lights on. So it'd be wise to at least hear them out.
I mean he's right, Fans are the last person you should ever listen to when making a new entry in a series.