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Mass Effect

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 31, 2017
16,793
Obviously it would be better to have a black character get meaningful development instead of him being a palette swap/afterthought, but honestly, even normalizing minority representation is a step in the right direction. We all want well-written characters, but that's impossible, so might as well have badly written minority characters as well as majority ones.

Are you... sure about that? Personally, I would absolutely not be a fan of having more black representation only to have many of the characters be terrible stereotypes (being "thugs"/"ghetto," portrayed as unintelligent, being only athletes or rappers, being "loudmouth"/sassy, being primitive, etc).

Whatislove brings up a great example of this, but with an LGBT character.

There are plenty of movies and TV shows rife with examples of these. One of the most recent examples off the top of my head is the show Insatiable, which features a gay character who has a crush on the main character. Her subplot quickly focuses around her attraction to her friend and feels like so narrow that it felt worse than nothing at all.

There are also movies like Get Hard and The Wolf of Wall Street which use homosexuality as the butt of their jokes.

So yeah I'd love more representation, and no all of it is not going to be Oscar-worthy in its writing, but I don't know if I would support minority representation with awful stereotypes over nothing. I'd argue such terrible characterization would actually hurt more than it would help. We don't need stereotypes like I mentioned reinforced in media any more than it already is.

But it depends on the situation. I'm not trying to present some false dichotomy here.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
6,960
The article reads like a troll is trying to discredit diversity by pretending to argue for it.

You see, a video game is more than a collection of systems. You don't need more than one type of tank in Battlefield 5, but choice is a good thing. You don't need to have flashy visual effects such as dust particles and debris with each explosion, but they help craft an illusion. Choice and flavour are as integral to a game as the verbs.

Thanks, I don't need your interpretation what a video game is.

Lets not even discuss why there are multiple weapons and tanks in the game like BFV (gameplay components designed for different playstyles and counters). Perhaps you could make this argument with Fortnite skins, but not the actual content of the game. When people complain about the lack of content, the complains are about the functional items, not cosmetics...
 

the_wart

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,262
I'm in the minority opinion here, but I would have actually preferred it if Kassandra were written solely as a woman and if she experienced sexism to a certain extent.

I absolutely agree in principle, but that's a very "monkey-paw" thing to ask for from a mass-market AAA videogame. The AAA's game ultimate mandate is to appeal to the broadest possible audience, so anything controversial or disempowering will more likely than not be handled with kid gloves. The only AAA games I can think of that seriously tried to incorporate real-world discrimination against the protagonist are Mafia III and Deus Ex: Mankind Divided, and AFAIK they were pretty bad commercial flops. I'm playing Deus Ex right now and you can practically hear the writers' brains melt down trying to address oppression within the confines of a AAA power-fantasy framework...

For a series like AssCreed I think the route they chose is the correct one: just very clearly declare yourself to be bubblegum pop with historical-tourism flavor, and then just be welcoming and inclusive without worrying about "accuracy".
 

Tesser

Writer/Critic at Hardcore Gamer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
891
This post reminds me as it ticks several boxes:
CfdlO3E.png




Again, normalization is also incredibly important. There doesn't need to be some deep lore reason for women or minorities to exist. The lack of it doesn't make something have poor or unbelievable world building.

Which one of the 16 boxes do you think I'm falling into? A 4x4 bingo sheet with none crossed out doesn't really help here. Also, point me to where I said "deep lore". If you're referring to my mentioning characters should be written into a story in such a way it makes sense, that doesn't have to be "deep", only logical to the situation we're presented with.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,388
Which one of the 16 boxes do you think I'm falling into? A 4x4 bingo sheet with none crossed out doesn't really help here. Also, point me to where I said "deep lore". If you're referring to my mentioning characters should be written into a story in such a way it makes sense, that doesn't have to be "deep", only logical to the situation we're presented with.
Define "logical."
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,364
Are you... sure about that? Personally, I would absolutely not be a fan of having more black representation, but only to have many of the characters be terrible stereotypes (being "thugs"/"ghetto," portrayed as unintelligent, being only athletes or rappers, being "loudmouth"/sassy, being primitive, etc).
Oh, I should probably have specified that I mean the "generic" or "bland" type of "badly written" characters. I would absolutely oppose offensive stereotypes. ^^ I can't speak for minorities, perhaps some would prefer having stereotypes than nothing at all, but I'd imagine most would not want that. I don't actually know, though. Perhaps it would depend on how egregious the stereotype is.

I absolutely agree in principle, but that's a very "monkey-paw" thing to ask for from a mass-market AAA videogame. The AAA's game ultimate mandate is to appeal to the broadest possible audience, so anything controversial or disempowering will more likely than not be handled with kid gloves. The only AAA games I can think of that seriously tried to incorporate real-world discrimination against the protagonist are Mafia III and Deus Ex: Mankind Divided, and AFAIK they were pretty bad commercial flops. I'm playing Deus Ex right now and you can practically hear the writers' brains melt down trying to address oppression within the confines of a AAA power-fantasy framework...

For a series like AssCreed I think the route they chose is the correct one: just very clearly declare yourself to be bubblegum pop with historical-tourism flavor, and then just be welcoming and inclusive without worrying about "accuracy".
Yeah, fair point. That sort of thing would probably really need talented and thoughtful writers. I definitely think it could be done, though.
 

the_wart

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,262
Are you... sure about that? Personally, I would absolutely not be a fan of having more black representation, but only to have many of the characters be terrible stereotypes (being "thugs"/"ghetto," portrayed as unintelligent, being only athletes or rappers, being "loudmouth"/sassy, being primitive, etc).

I don't think that's what most people are referring to with allegedly "forced" representation. What that is, for example, is when a character who would conventionally or stereotypically be a white man is instead black, or a woman, or whatever, without the game going to great lengths to justify this. What you're talking about is just negative representation, which I hope no one here is in favor of (unless the game is making a serious attempt to critique/deconstruct those stereotypes).
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,046
Oh, I should probably have specified that I mean the "generic" or "bland" type of "badly written" characters. I would absolutely oppose offensive stereotypes. ^^ I can't speak for minorities, perhaps some would prefer having stereotypes than nothing at all, but I'd imagine most would not want that. I don't actually know, though. Perhaps it would depend on how egregious the stereotype is.

It's complex in practice, I think. Stereotypes tend to be received differently depending on how negative, played out, or whatever else they are. Like, I really love Great Tiger in the Wii Punch-Out!! because he's not just a stereotype, but one that is so outdated that it doesn't really exist in the wild anymore. Plus, the magic man from the east actual comes across as kind of cool, as opposed to, like, the Big Bang Theory's Raj.
 

Stiler

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
6,659
The way I'm seeing is three's like three main perspectives when it comes to this kind of stuff.

There's the point of view of wanting more diversity because there is a lack of representation for many people and cultures when it comes to gaming, so anything they can get is better then what they normally get.

There's the point of view of some that think the story/setting should help guide the types of characters you portray when it comes to dealing directly with story IF your game is meant to be historically accurate. IE a game set during WWII (story wise) makes sense to have characters that reflect that time period and place in regards to the story you are telling. If you are telling a story about the french resistance? A french man/woman is the logical choice, if you are making a story based on a soldier at the front lines in the army? A white or African American man makes the most sense when it comes to telling a story based on history. Story about the French and Indian War? You get the point.

Then there's the point of view that's just that any diversity is "forced" and they throw a temper tantrum whenever it's not the usual makeup that most games have in them.

For me I can kind of see the view of the middle one, I think if you are doing a game that's meant to be based on history and the game itself is meant to be accurate and tell it's story based on an actual historical person or group of people, then it helps ground the story if you portray it like it was (this isn't to say you can't find a story based on diversity, as you can and I think those stories are very much worth telling, I'd love to see a WW1 game that tells the story of Milunka Savić for instance).

However, a game like Battlefield? They've never been historically accurate in the least, and with the focus on multiplayer it makes sense to offer people the choice of their character and who they want to play as in terms of race/gender and such, it literally has 0 affect on your game if someone is playing as a male/female and fighting on the battlefield, mp is much more focused on gameplay, not a story or characters.

When it comes to diverse characters I want all of them to be portrayed with the same level that white characters are usually given. It's 2019, there's no reason we shouldn't be getting more games that have lead characters that aren't just straight white people.
 
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Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,500
Are you... sure about that? Personally, I would absolutely not be a fan of having more black representation only to have many of the characters be terrible stereotypes (being "thugs"/"ghetto," portrayed as unintelligent, being only athletes or rappers, being "loudmouth"/sassy, being primitive, etc).

Badly written isn't the same as offensive stereotype or destructive portrayal.

But it depends on the situation. I'm not trying to present some false dichotomy here.

I mean I suppose, but no one really is arguing "hey, lets have black drug dealers and indian cab drivers" as there go to for diversity.
 

the_wart

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,262
Yeah, fair point. That sort of thing would probably really need talented and thoughtful writers. I definitely think it could be done, though.

Honestly I don't think talent is the limiting factor here; I think the writers on AC:0 and DE:MD are tremendously talented. It's just really hard to take risks when you're working on a project with a $50M+ budget and hungry shareholders sharpening their knives in the background. Exhibit A: Battlefield 5...
 

Mass Effect

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 31, 2017
16,793
Oh, I should probably have specified that I mean the "generic" or "bland" type of "badly written" characters.

Ah okay. Yeah, I'd be more than fine with a boring minority character than not having one at all.

I mean we have plenty of boring white dudes in games now, it's not like we'd be any worse off.

I would absolutely oppose offensive stereotypes. ^^ I can't speak for minorities, perhaps some would prefer having stereotypes than nothing at all, but I'd imagine most would not want that. I don't actually know, though. Perhaps it would depend on how egregious the stereotype is.

huh, now that you bring it up, I guess it does depend on the stereotype.

I suppose I can use Cole Train (from Gears of War) as an example. He's definitely got some stereotypes (big athlete type, loudmouthed), but at the same time I've always been a fan of his character. I don't know how other black people feel about him, but I've always liked him.

Drebin (from MGS4) is another. I always thought he was cool, even though he's got that excessive bling thing going on, but I also haven't played enough of that game to make a solid judgement though.
 

Tesser

Writer/Critic at Hardcore Gamer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
891

Abiding to a pre-determined set of internal rules within the game world itself...in the case of characters, acting or behaving in a way that relates to the story beats or reacting in a way that is in line with what is already established about their own mannerisms and behaviours. There's always some leeway offered with the last part, but only when the subsequent actions thereafter still make sense and don't come across as disjointed.

I'm still waiting on a response to my first two questions by the way.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,046
The issue of the characters fitting in the world is a bit of a tough one, since the world is someone that has to be decided on as well. Even if it's a real world setting, someone has to decide on using that setting for whatever reason, and it's not necessarily the first thing they come up with.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,388
Abiding to a pre-determined set of internal rules within the game world itself...in the case of characters, acting or behaving in a way that relates to the story beats or reacting in a way that is in line with what is already established about their own mannerisms and behaviours. There's always some leeway offered with the last part, but only when the subsequent actions thereafter still make sense and don't come across as disjointed.
What if the pre-determined rules are that the setting is unapologetically inclusive. Minorities don't need to "make sense" nor do they need a justified reason to be included. Your argument is essentially that white is the default and that everything else needs a reason to be there.
 

Mass Effect

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 31, 2017
16,793
Badly written isn't the same as offensive stereotype or destructive portrayal.

I mean but it absolutely can be though. But I wasn't necessarily talking "actively offensive" here, just falling into the trap of creating a character of a certain minority with some samey, tired-ass stereotype.

If we go back to the Cole Train example, one of him isn't bad, but if many black characters were written similarly and that was the only representation we got from whatever games did so, that would just be bad. Cole Train being exuberant athlete isn't inherently offensive by itself, but if Jace, Aaron Griffin, AND Del (these are other black characters in Gears if you didn't know) had one of the other stereotypes I mentioned, that would be problematic.

I'm probably not explaining myself very well here and I'm sorry, but hopefully you get what I'm trying to say.

I mean I suppose, but no one really is arguing "hey, lets have black drug dealers and indian cab drivers" as there go to for diversity.

I never said anyone was actively championing that idea, and definitely not Morrigan specifically. I was just saying the notion of saying "something is better than nothing" can have unforeseen consequences.
 

SneakersSO

Banned
Oct 24, 2017
1,353
North America
Diversity is absolutely important, no doubt about it. Its okay if some people feel that diversity is as important or more important than gameplay. Its an opinion.

To me, gameplay is the thing that matters most. Some of the biggest games of all time, like Tetris or Solitaire, don't even have characters. Gameplay will always be the primary thing to attract me to a game, based on the things I know I like & don't like. Great stories are almost equally as important to me, but gameplay wins out 10 times out of 10.

This all comes down to personal opinion however. I know many will & won't agree with me. I don't think 1 way of measuring appreciation for games is necessarily any better or worse; it just depends on who is doing the measuring.
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,623
Diversity is absolutely important, no doubt about it. Its okay if some people feel that diversity is as important or more important than gameplay. Its an opinion.

To me, gameplay is the thing that matters most. Some of the biggest games of all time, like Tetris or Solitaire, don't even have characters. Gameplay will always be the primary thing to attract me to a game, based on the things I know I like & don't like. Great stories are almost equally as important to me, but gameplay wins out 10 times out of 10.

This all comes down to personal opinion however. I know many will & won't agree with me. I don't think 1 way of measuring appreciation for games is necessarily any better or worse; it just depends on who is doing the measuring.
The sentiment is that "a...game is much more than its gameplay". Not that X is more important than gameplay. This isn't an either-or thing
 

Shpeshal Nick

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,856
Melbourne, Australia
Of course diversity is important. But why would/should one aspect of the game be sacrificed depending on the game or genre? Why can't they be an accepted standard?

As someone who has never cared about story/narrative in games, the gender or ethnicity of the character I play as has never bothered me or been something I actively noticed.

If I read the article properly, it seems to focus on story driven games? But why should the simpler "fun" games be excluded from the discussion? The "main" character in Crackdown was black. Which is who I always chose to play as. I set my Sunset Overdrive character mostly as a woman. Again, another game where story isn't a huge focus.

Diversity is super important, but it's not just important in story driven games, it should be considered for all games regardless. But I don't feel gameplay or diversity should be sacrificied. For me gameplay will always be king, but why would diversity need to be sacrificed for that?

Or have I misinterpreted something?
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,623
Of course diversity is important. But why would/should one aspect of the game be sacrificed depending on the game or genre? Why can't they. It's be an accepted standard?

As someone who has never cared about story/narrative in games, the gender or ethnicity of the character I play as has never bothered me or been something I actively noticed.

If I read the article properly, it seems to focus on story driven games? But why should the simpler "fun" games be excluded from the discussion? The "main" character in Crackdown was black. Which is who I always chose to play as. I set my Sunset Overdrive character mostly as a woman. Again, another game where story isn't a huge focus.

Diversity is super important, but it's not just important in story driven games, it should be considered for all games regardless. But I don't feel gameplay or diversity should be sacrificied. For me gameplay will always be king, but why would diversity need to be sacrificed for that?

Or have I misinterpreted something?
See the post above your's
 

ThatPersonGuy

Member
Dec 30, 2018
195
This whole thread's based on this annoying confusion between cultural representation and trait representation, and this fake zero-sum game that supposedly exists between the two.

You write black characters, and you write stories on blackness. You need the first for the second, but you don't need the second for the first. I know, personally, that because of where/how I was brought up I don't connect to a lot of what's marketed as the "black experience", so I wouldn't personally feel any more involved or represented than if it were set in Japan or in Australia. Narratives on cultural identity are very interesting and are themselves needed in a cultutal space that traditionally never really agknowledged them, but they themselves can coexist with narratives that aren't really about cultural identity so much as simply picturing the world in a way that normalizes minority identities. Just seeing racial, ethnic, queer, etc minorities normalizes, especially in places where diversity is low and largely interacted which via literal propaganda, people who aren't straight white cis etc etc etc. And that is in itself, good.

I'd argue that not every story needs to be culturally diverse in that most individual stories work best when they have a comittment to depicting the world the author knows (or does extensive research on). Like, Get Out's a story exclusively on the black/white American racial divide, that's perfectly fine. And along those lines, in stories where it makes sense for more charged casting, I'm not gonna throw a fit. But there are a lot of situations where, for no other reason than "just because", the casting just auto-defaults to straight cis white dude, and that's the perception, the idea of the "default" state of living, that needs to be confronted. And that in itself doesn't mean that every straightciswhite guy is a bad character inherently, far from it. But there's this annoying need to "justify" venturing out from that, and therein lies the annoyance.
 

Tesser

Writer/Critic at Hardcore Gamer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
891
What if the pre-determined rules are that the setting is unapologetically inclusive. Minorities don't need to "make sense" nor do they need a justified reason to be included.

Then fine, the reader/viewer/player/whoever first accepts that the setting, if I'm understanding your example right, is of an inclusive/diverse/multicultural nature however if a creation then wants to be character-focused, it needs to explore and write these characters in a way that doesn't simply confine them to factors such as ethnicity and sexuality. You could explore such things like personal beliefs motivations and relationships with one another. Even with such a hypothetical premise such as diversity of this sort, your characters - and by extension, story - will suffer from being one dimensional or littered with caricatures if all you do is focus on the surface and nothing else.

Your argument is essentially that white is the default and that everything else needs a reason to be there.

Woah hold on, why the strawman all of a sudden? Again, please quote/point me to where I mentioned anything pertaining to white being the default or that "everything else" as you put it, needs a reason. Still waiting on those previous examples as well.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,246
Of course diversity is important. But why would/should one aspect of the game be sacrificed depending on the game or genre? Why can't they be an accepted standard?

As someone who has never cared about story/narrative in games, the gender or ethnicity of the character I play as has never bothered me or been something I actively noticed.

If I read the article properly, it seems to focus on story driven games? But why should the simpler "fun" games be excluded from the discussion? The "main" character in Crackdown was black. Which is who I always chose to play as. I set my Sunset Overdrive character mostly as a woman. Again, another game where story isn't a huge focus.

Diversity is super important, but it's not just important in story driven games, it should be considered for all games regardless. But I don't feel gameplay or diversity should be sacrificied. For me gameplay will always be king, but why would diversity need to be sacrificed for that?

Or have I misinterpreted something?

Yes, you're misinterpreting the article. It's not focused on story-driven games, it's talking about how all the elements of a game make up the entire experience, and diversity is another part of that. The Battlefield example in the article is a good representation of what it is trying to get across.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,364
Ah okay. Yeah, I'd be more than fine with a boring minority character than not having one at all.

I mean we have plenty of boring white dudes in games now, it's not like we'd be any worse off.



huh, now that you bring it up, I guess it does depend on the stereotype.

I suppose I can use Cole Train (from Gears of War) as an example. He's definitely got some stereotypes (big athlete type, loudmouthed), but at the same time I've always been a fan of his character. I don't know how other black people feel about him, but I've always liked him.

Drebin (from MGS4) is another. I always thought he was cool, even though he's got that excessive bling thing going on, but I also haven't played enough of that game to make a solid judgement though.
I feel you. I really think it depends on the stereotype. Some are far more pervasive or harmful than others. And sometimes a character, despite being a bit of a stereotype, can also have redeeming values.
I'm probably not explaining myself very well here and I'm sorry, but hopefully you get what I'm trying to say
Don't worry, I do get what you are saying :)
 

Mobyduck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,100
Brazil
I should probably not dignify you with an answer, since your post has several dog whistles. Like many others who tried to discuss about diversity before, you hide your disgust for it behind "I don't care, so why should you," or "I don't see color." Since you at least tried, here is an answer to some of your points.

As someone aligned with the other side here - but someone, more importantly, willing to converse and debate as opposed to name-calling - I of course disagree with about 95% of the article. Yes, I think "diversity" in as abstract a term one can get away with, is a good thing and one we, if not actively encourage on a regular basis, should definitely be considered - both as creators and as individuals investing in said creations. Diversity of thought is a great thing; I welcome all manner of political beliefs, even those not aligned with my own and would much rather debate someone on the merits of their own beliefs and values…as opposed to their own character/personality. Criticise the ideas, not the person. But where I draw the line is when any kind of entertainment actively engages in superficial forms of diversity (such as ethnicity and sexuality) without putting in the effort to treat characters more than the initial identity/label they're presented as. I want to know that a writer/creator has put in the time to make said character believable in the context of the world they're a part of…rather than either a reaction to the state of the real world OR confined, as I said, to the superficial level of detail that their supposed characteristics entail. Diversity of race, religion, sex and nationality has existed for decades; do you really think the supposed "outrage" online has itself only just sprouted up over the past couple of years. And even if that were true, why would these people be happy with alternate representation 10/15/20 years ago, but not now? Doesn't quite add up.

By superficial, do you mean shallow, or in the sense that it's visible from the surface? I hope the latter, since ethnicity and sexuality play just as an important roles in our lives as religious or political beliefs. Either way, I don't understand the need for characters that are part of a minority to have their existence justified to the player. Of course I'd rather these characters are well developed, but it's not like every single white male character ever made had effort put into them. Some characters are going to be trash, are going to have badly written backstories and weird motivations, but that has nothing to do with whether they are black, asian, homossexual, trans etc. Also, not every game is going to be about social issues, but it doesn't mean minorities can't be added. So what if one of your team members is a trans men? He doesn't need to have an entire questline about how he was brought up, all the misgendering he suffered, all the bullying, and so on. If the writers want to tackle that, great! If they don't, then so what? Maybe the creators of the game knew a trans man and wanted to honor him, maybe they thought it would attract more players, maybe they just wanted to try something different. It doesn't matter.

Concerning the second bolded statement. I imagine the reason we see more outrage nowadays is due to how society has started to accept these minorities (very slowly and painfully), and how social media has allowed these same people to voice their concerns and desires without the fear to be attacked (physically, at least). A gay black man received an award one day in the United States, and seconds later the entire world was talking about him. Our voices can be heard by everyone, and some people are mad.

I will concede that the whole Gruff Man Personality 376 Type-D protagonist has become a tad laughably dull as of late, but like many things, there are always alternatives and other creations that, while aren't guaranteed to satisfy wholesale, do at least attempt a sense of diversity that doesn't come across as mere box-ticking. I'll throw up an example literally from off the top of my head right now: Valkyria Chronicles 4. You have a game with as many female characters as there are male, but their very being female isn't the one and only source for representation and expression in that game. And I'm talking beyond the gameplay front - on how different characters in different classes with differing traits vary and can prove helpful depending on the situation put before me - where it can present itself in the story. Never do I watch a cutscene in a game like VC4 or Persona 5 or Fire Emblem or (personal favourite) Xenoblade Chronicles and look at things through the narrow filter of gender. I'd much rather judge a character objectively based on the quality of their written presence, their development, their place in the world, their relevance to the events unfolding in the narrative……and then, I could perhaps extend that to more subjective leanings with their personality, their relationships between other characters, the delivery of their dialogue regardless of intended tone. I ended up liking a few of the characters in the game because of how the game presented and/or explored their place in the story, as well as simply liking their particular traits and gameplay abilities mid-mission.

You speak as if that's all people did. When I watch a movie, I don't start making notes of each character's race, sexuality, gender etc. I just watch the movie and enjoy if for what it is. You talk as if each minority had its own club, in which they had weekly meetings and discussed how only X% of characters from released medium that week shared their "minority". The reality is that, when a minority shows up in media X, it highlights how few are present in similar works. When I watched "Dear White People" on Netflix, I realized how few gay men that aren't flamboyant actually exist in the media I consume. I never asked for that kind of character, but his existence was welcomed by me.

As more and more games add minority characters to major roles, the more obvious it becomes how few there were before.[/quote][/QUOTE]
 

KillLaCam

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,388
Seoul
I read that wrong. Thought it said "Diversity is much more important to a game than its gameplay" lmao
 

Heid

Member
Jan 7, 2018
1,808
Personally I always felt like people with disabilities or facial deformities should be represented more. Missing limbs has been done a few times but often its more of a gimmick in character design. The facial deformities one is reaaaaaaally tough because ugly characters in videogames are so easy to find and so easy to make fun of, with glitches or just poorly made/animated games. Theres only a few studios in a position that could handle it well and actually capture an audience with the right tone of their game too. eg what if in The Last of Us , Ellie is kinda deformed from the fungus, benign but with some strange side effects after however many years.

Its kinda disappeared from movies too, but I remember watching ages ago where the message was you know look past the exterior. Everyones gotta be pretty nowadays.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,388
Then fine, the reader/viewer/player/whoever first accepts that the setting, if I'm understanding your example right, is of an inclusive/diverse/multicultural nature however if a creation then wants to be character-focused, it needs to explore and write these characters in a way that doesn't simply confine them to factors such as ethnicity and sexuality.
Okay, i'm about tired of seeing this same old argument. As at this point I see more people talking about the risk/slippery slope of this occurring then it actually occurring in media that's inclusive.
SbOhaBl.png


Woah hold on, why the strawman all of a sudden? Again, please quote/point me to where I mentioned anything pertaining to white being the default or that "everything else" as you put it, needs a reason. Still waiting on those previous examples as well.
You're saying that minorities need a reason to exist in a way that makes sense to the world. I don't think you realize the implications of such a statement.
 

Tesser

Writer/Critic at Hardcore Gamer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
891
I should probably not dignify you with an answer, since your post has several dog whistles.

Name them. Examples?

Like many others who tried to discuss about diversity before, you hide your disgust for it behind "I don't care, so why should you," or "I don't see color."

I'm not attempting to "hide" my disgust at all. My frustrations with the current state of creativity in most media nowadays primarily revolves around the idea that everything has to be as inoffensive as possible and that it should attempt to appeal to everybody...or it's bad. That one's emotional feelings or opinions pertaining to some presumed injustice or injustices in the world right now, automatically trumps everything else that goes into the development of any art form. That such things like creative writing and internal logic, for example, have to be sacrificed for the sake of satisfying a select group.


By superficial, do you mean shallow, or in the sense that it's visible from the surface? I hope the latter, since ethnicity and sexuality play just as an important roles in our lives as religious or political beliefs. Either way, I don't understand the need for characters that are part of a minority to have their existence justified to the player. Of course I'd rather these characters are well developed, but it's not like every single white male character ever made had effort put into them. Some characters are going to be trash, are going to have badly written backstories and weird motivations, but that has nothing to do with whether they are black, asian, homossexual, trans etc. Also, not every game is going to be about social issues, but it doesn't mean minorities can't be added. So what if one of your team members is a trans men? He doesn't need to have an entire questline about how he was brought up, all the misgendering he suffered, all the bullying, and so on. If the writers want to tackle that, great! If they don't, then so what? Maybe the creators of the game knew a trans man and wanted to honor him, maybe they thought it would attract more players, maybe they just wanted to try something different. It doesn't matter.

First of all, my argument is that ethnic and sexual representation shouldn't be the point where character development stops. I agree that not all video game characters are going to get sufficient levels of development or that they're all going to be interesting, doesn't matter if it turns out to be a character who is white, black, straight, gay. But if all you're going to do for a character who is gay, for example, is to hammer players over the head the fact that said character is gay, undermines that character's relevancy with the larger narrative in question. Are they there for any reason other than to have a token gay character, or do you instead focus on other aspects and perhaps slowly, subtly weave in connotations and associations to one's sexuality. Indeed, not all games are going to have social, religious, philosophical, political leanings in their core premise or themes and providing characters serve to form a greater narrative in regards to their actions and interactions, it doesn't matter who you involve. The point is to not be so afraid or distrustful of player intelligence that you feel have to ham-fist your approach. As you put it, I agree to an extent: if a developer wants to do this, great....but you have to respect the foundation of the IP it's based off in the case of previous material already established (be this reality or self-contained), or at the very least make me believe in the characters you're presenting. Don't, for example, portray a European country set within our own reality in the 12th century comprised entirely 100% of trans-men and trans-women, say "THIS IS HOW THE WORLD WAS" and expect me to just go along with it...especially if you're trying to keep to historical accuracy, because that won't work. On the otherhand, if it's fantastical in nature, then of course limitations are significantly lesser since we're not basing this off of our own reality.

Concerning the second bolded statement. I imagine the reason we see more outrage nowadays is due to how society has started to accept these minorities (very slowly and painfully), and how social media has allowed these same people to voice their concerns and desires without the fear to be attacked (physically, at least). A gay black man received an award one day in the United States, and seconds later the entire world was talking about him. Our voices can be heard by everyone, and some people are mad.

My argument was that there are certain people accusing "the fringe" let's call it, of having been forever racist or sexist and that they never have and never will tolerate characters that aren't white or straight. If that is the case, how do you explain the popularity of several media properties over the past 50 years that have featured characters of differing ethnicities and sexualities. My problem here is that people aren't willing to counter their own predetermined line of thinking by going: "oh wait hang on, people really liked the older media that featured black characters? is it right for me to make assumptions, i could be wrong here." Yes, social media has indeed given a platform for people to complain about the most pointless and mundane things - it works both ways. You will always gets extreme fringes on both sides, but there seems to be lack of research and retrospect when one complains about "no THIS and no THAT" in any creation. Am I to deduce in the past 50 years of video games, TV, movies, books, art, whatever....there has been no attempt, none whatsoever, to diverge from focusing entirely on characters who are white and straight? OR...in the other extreme case, that in the same 50 year period roughly, we haven't allowed for content that simply has...I dunno....five male party members in a JRPG, without cause for concern?


You speak as if that's all people did. When I watch a movie, I don't start making notes of each character's race, sexuality, gender etc. I just watch the movie and enjoy if for what it is. You talk as if each minority had its own club, in which they had weekly meetings and discussed how only X% of characters from released medium that week shared their "minority". The reality is that, when a minority shows up in media X, it highlights how few are present in similar works.

You don't make notes of each character's race, sexuality, gender etc....and yet, when a supposed minority shows up in media X, you still think its worth making a note of, as if we're keeping a running tally across, as you say, "similar works"? You're contradicting yourself there.

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I appreciate the responses though.
 
Oct 28, 2017
352
You could palette swap skin colour, gender, and ethnicity on if not like 90% the majority of main characters and side characters in a video game and it would make no difference on the characterization plot or story of the game. We have white dudes for a reason. It's safe for publishers because all they care about is making money. White men don't have to have a reason to be there or to exist or to be the hero of the story. It's everyone else that has to prove themselves? Screw that more of the human race represented the better.
 

iliketopaint_93

Use of alt account
Member
Sep 3, 2018
597
Growing up in the 90's I've always felt this way despite the popular consensus and have lived most of my life according to that, which is why it's weird to see people preaching it so much, using specific terminology like "diversity" and "people of color" and reciting buzzy phrases and other soundbites you learn in college as though you're hustling to be christened as the human resources representative of the conversation lol. People take it so seriously now, which is something me and my friends crack jokes about, though we like that changes are happening.

Given recent events it seems more appropriate than it did a couple of years ago but at the same time as someone who's always been in environments where you acknowledge someone's heritage, religion, sexuality, etc, accept it, judge each other based on actions and just hang out over likemindedness, it's a bit odd because there's many ways to communicate love of culture and equal representation due to how our subjective truths and experiences as individuals can vary within our religions, cultures, sexualities, etc. It seems like we're getting to where we're taking each other more seriously now and things are getting more monolithic, which is odd to me, but even though the means seem kind of unnecessary at times (also a lot of that is a mode of interaction directed at to someone who isn't already aware), I like that it's resulting in more culture in video games because lack of that has always limited the medium as an artform and it's been a long time coming.
 
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Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,388
You could palette swap skin colour, gender, and ethnicity on if not like 90% the majority of main characters and side characters in a video game and it would make no difference on the characterization plot or story of the game. We have white dudes for a reason. It's safe for publishers because all they care about is making money. White men don't have to have a reason to be there or to exist or to be the hero of the story. It's everyone else that has to prove themselves? Screw that more of the human race represented the better.
^^^^
 

leburn98

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,637
Something I haven't seen brought up is that diversity is more than just gender, race or culture. Age diversity is also important in moving games forward. A group of young developers at Nintendo developed Splatoon, a game that the old guard at Nintendo likely would never attempt, especially given it's heavy online focus. On the flip side, we see a veteran group of developers at Santa Monica develop arguably the most mature God of War with a compelling story. I'm sure the fact that many of the developers are now growing families and raising children of their own played directly into maturing Kratos as a character.
 
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Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
User Banned (1 Month): Insensitive and racist commentary. History of similar behaviour.
Personally I always felt like people with disabilities or facial deformities should be represented more. Missing limbs has been done a few times but often its more of a gimmick in character design. The facial deformities one is reaaaaaaally tough because ugly characters in videogames are so easy to find and so easy to make fun of, with glitches or just poorly made/animated games. Theres only a few studios in a position that could handle it well and actually capture an audience with the right tone of their game too. eg what if in The Last of Us , Ellie is kinda deformed from the fungus, benign but with some strange side effects after however many years.
No thanks. Moreso than race, that's something I won't play or buy.

Looks matter, just like in real life
 
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Don Fluffles

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,061
Also saying that no women were in WW2 is dumb. However that Norwegian heavy water thing in Battlefield 5 was...sigh i know it is fiction, but after reading about what the operation was kind was insulting to the actual soldiers who carried out the job
Yeah. I've heard a variety of comments. DICE made the mistake of invoking revisionist history, something that's HEAVILY frowned upon by historians. They could have also had missions based around, iirc, female Russian or Hungarian snipers, which was a thing.

Despite this, the outcry makes the fans themselves look a lot worse.
 
Dec 18, 2017
356
Quick story time. Earlier this year, myself and the rest of our on campus black student union made a date to go see Black Panther. Now, this was about 40 black folks rolling in on a small town cinema, filling out the entire tiny screening room to see this one movie together, which was an experience unto itself.

But as I was watching the movie, I had to stop myself from crying every moment it was able to accurately represent touchstones of black culture that largely go ignored in the nerd space. I'd thought I was ready for it, with all my extended knowledge of the Marvel comics, and how historied Black Panther's badassery is, but something about seeing it in large format shook my core. I thought of kids back home, who were now able to grow up with a hero that looked like them that wasn't just cool in comics, but literally a worldwide phenomena. My parents texted me a few hours later, saying that I should make it a priority to see it, without realizing I'd already gone.

I can't tell you how I'd react if something like this was emulated in the game space, but I know that it's fucking important that we try and get there. You never quite realize how moving representation can be until you get it, especially in the ways the nerd movie scene has been in the past few years(Star Wars, Spider-Man, Black Panther, Sorry to Bother You).
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,364
Are they there for any reason other than to have a token gay character, or do you instead focus on other aspects and perhaps slowly, subtly weave in connotations and associations to one's sexuality.
What does it matter? Is the straight/white character there for any reason other than to have a token straight/white character? Why does this so-called concern about tokenism never applies to straight white male characters?
Basically this :
You could palette swap skin colour, gender, and ethnicity on if not like 90% the majority of main characters and side characters in a video game and it would make no difference on the characterization plot or story of the game. We have white dudes for a reason. It's safe for publishers because all they care about is making money. White men don't have to have a reason to be there or to exist or to be the hero of the story. It's everyone else that has to prove themselves? Screw that more of the human race represented the better.
.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
What does it matter? Is the straight/white character there for any reason other than to have a token straight/white character? Why does this so-called concern about tokenism never applies to straight white male characters?
Basically this :

.
Yeah very few characters are defined by their whiteness, it rarely plays any role to the story or the characterization. They are just white and that's fine, should be fine to just have minorities represented in the same manner.
 

Majukun

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,542
By "gameplay", do you mean complex mechanics? Action mechanics like combat and platforming? How do you feel about narrative adventures/"walking sims", games where the gameplay is movement and interacting, or just clicking on the screen?

I think interactivity is the better and broader term. A game like Gone Home has simple gameplay but its storytelling is unique due to the nature of environmental storytelling and freely exploring a 3D space where the story is pieced together through the player's observation and exploration. You can't tell the story of Gone Home the same way in a movie or book or show. The plot might be the same, but the actual delivery of the plot can only be done that way through games, just like how telling a story in film is driven by cinematography, framing and composition, editing, etc compared to that same story in a book
gameplay equals interactivity.

a game it's just an activity where you follow a set of rules and that has a failure state and a "continue" or "win" state.

kick a ball to a wall it's not a game, kick it and try to kick it back without it touching the ground, there you have a game.

by that standard,any time there's interaction requested from the game to the player and and erroneus response but the player means some kind of failure (either a game over or just not continuing with the game), it's gameplay.

you can argue about how good is a gameplay in a walking simulator where all you do is clicking on stuff and look around..but as long as it's requested some kind of interction and thought process from the player, even if just to decide on WHAT you wanna click, that's gameplay for me, if I like it or not doesn't really stops me from recognizing it as such.

of course there are some forms that seem gameplay but don't qualify..like a qte you can't fail like in the order 1886..there it's presented as a choice, as a chance for interactivity, but in the end it's just as interactive as playing play on your dvd player, there is no thought process involved, at least not one of any meaning (recognizing shapes stops being a thought process pretty early in life),and the game willpatiently wait for you to press the button, so there's no fail state.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,290
Not that the people who should watch it will, but figure it's never bad to push.



Diversity will only be more important as time moves forward. We should encourage a progressive game industry, because lord knows, it's a predictable, boring trash fire right now.
 

Segafreak

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,756
RDR2 has the best gameplay since MGS5.

People had the same criticism for KZ2's weighty controls. But both are masters at what they're doing.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,039
Personally I always felt like people with disabilities or facial deformities should be represented more. Missing limbs has been done a few times but often its more of a gimmick in character design. The facial deformities one is reaaaaaaally tough because ugly characters in videogames are so easy to find and so easy to make fun of, with glitches or just poorly made/animated games. Theres only a few studios in a position that could handle it well and actually capture an audience with the right tone of their game too. eg what if in The Last of Us , Ellie is kinda deformed from the fungus, benign but with some strange side effects after however many years.

Its kinda disappeared from movies too, but I remember watching ages ago where the message was you know look past the exterior. Everyones gotta be pretty nowadays.

Though I disagree about movies (movies have always had beautiful people in them, it's just that our standards of beauty are different today than 30 years ago, so old movies might look more inclusive but they're most certainly less inclusive), it would be good to see more body types in games and not just disfigurement.

But, I kinda think games does this better than movies and TV. A lot of times the casts in games aren't beautiful people, where as it's very rare in movies and TV for prominent roles to not be, generally, very attractive people. (although I wanted to make a joke about how all Unreal Engine games make people's faces look disfigured...)

Of course like usual, Red Dead Redemption 2 does this better than almost every game. There's a prominent side character in the story who lost a limb during the Civil War, and, sure it's part of who he is, but it's only ever really mentioned in passing... not something the characters dwells on it makes a gimmick out of. Arthur basically says, like, "How'd that happen...?" and he says, "Oh... my leg..?" and explains, and then they go off hunting together. But I think RDR2 handles minority characters better than most games, from race, ethnicity, gender, and age diversity.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
It is sometime lol

see below smh lol

I was confused about your post (I thought you meant Albatross' post), until I clicked the "show ignored content" link. For the life of me I can't figure out how he's not banned yet.

Incidentally, I didn't actually mean Era (I should edit the post to clarify); I meant VG247. Literally every comment below the article is a different shade of alt-right rethoric, including my favorite, and a masterclass in hypocrisy: linking an article about women spending a lot more money in games now, as proof that game developers are sellouts that only care about money and that's why they push for inclusion.

Wrap your head around that: if women don't buy games, devs should not include women (because it doesn't make financial sense), but if women buy games, devs should not include women (because otherwise they're compromising their sacred authorial intent for the sake of filthy lucre).

No thanks. Moreso than race, that's something I won't play or buy.

Looks matter, just like in real life

"Moreso than race", well that's certainly as good a way as any to lowkey admit being racist. :D