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Verge: Lockhart has 7.5GB of usable RAM, the same CPU speed as Series X, about 4 teraflops of GPU performance. [Up: TW - Won't hold back Next-gen]
- Thread starter Kenzodielocke
- Start date
I expect it to be better in most scenarios and worse in the one it's not intended to be great at. If it's a 1080p box, why would you expect it to be better than the XBX at 4K? That's ridiculous.
So, GPU wise, it's probably slightly better than a 5500XT(~5TF Navi gen1), maybe around a 5600XT-5700XT performance-wise?
I mean, those GPUs can handle current-gen games between 1080p - 1440p pretty well, with the 5700XT handling some 4k too. But that's just current-gen. I don't think a 4TF GPU would be able to handle 1440p/60 that well, or even 1440p/30. Unless the graphics are toned down quite a bit.
Lockhart with 4TF, less usable RAM, underclocked CPU seems to aim strictly for 1080p gaming, which should be okay as long as it's priced accordingly.
I mean, those GPUs can handle current-gen games between 1080p - 1440p pretty well, with the 5700XT handling some 4k too. But that's just current-gen. I don't think a 4TF GPU would be able to handle 1440p/60 that well, or even 1440p/30. Unless the graphics are toned down quite a bit.
Lockhart with 4TF, less usable RAM, underclocked CPU seems to aim strictly for 1080p gaming, which should be okay as long as it's priced accordingly.
It may be a hot take, but I think having to develop for such a low denominator may cause a few third parties to skip the new Xbox family altogether if it doesn't have a VERY strong install base. I mean, they've been ignoring the Switch for a while even with it being an undeniable success.
i would agree, it cant hold things back as long as it has an SSD which then we should be just fine, all it will be is just certain games at a different resolution. if it didnt have an SSD thats a whole other discussion.
This would be fit my family (well, gaming enthusiasts and not just Xbox). We currently have three Xbox One consoles (OG, S, X) and I envision replacing the X and S with the Series X and Lockhart (Series S?).
CPU and SSD. Next gen isn't going to be defined solely on the GPU, it even be it's biggest feature.
No, but it does mean you will have invest in multiple builds to adress every x platform. So as a medium sized shop, what are you going to do? Optimize for the lowest common denominator.
I agree on locking it to 1080p.
People claiming it is a confusing line up and hard to convey to people what the difference is. For me it seems completely straightforward. Put up a slide up at the August live event.
- Xbox Series S - HD machine
- Xbox Series X - 4K machine
That's it.
As an aside, any more than £299 in the UK and it will be a tough sell. Launching at £249 would be the aggressive price I think.
People do hear what they want especially in these threads where there is a lot of feigned ignorance and disingenuous concern. There was a very specific technical reason they ended up with the specs they did, the repeatedly said it during their initial talking about the machine.
You never saw the 6TF in consumer marketing, that was part of the conversation that's took place in blogs , chats with Phil Spencer etc. The Xbox One X trailer does not even mention specs.
Xbox One X's marketing slogan was "Feel True Power"
The closest metric you will usually see in consumer material or product descriptions for the likes of Amazon are "40% more powerful than any other console"
On another note, with product marketing you don't market to everyone, you market to your product's target audience you also market what makes you unique. That target audience for a brand new $600 console has a different set of criteria to other groups of people such as the group of people that haven't felt the need or found the cash to purchase a 4K TV or even a pro model console.
So you don't talk about the power when you market that product.
If we were in a situation where the PS4 pro and Xbox One X were the dominant force in the volumes of consoles sold, then perhaps there would have an argument they are walking back their proposition, But as it stands, only a portion of the gaming population see the value in the "power, resolution , framerate" value proposition anyway
Hell, even on Resetera more users own PS4 base than they do pro.
It's a significant upgrade to Base PS4/Slim and Base XBO/Slim in all facets; a significant upgrade to Xbox One X in all facets but image quality (it's roughly equal in IQ).
Key market for Lockhart would be those who picked up a base PS4 by say 2015 and want to upgrade to next-gen games at an affordable price in 2021. Normally you'd have to wait years for deep discounts, which hurts all developers working on next-gen games.
Jason Schreier :
Digital Foundry :
And funny enough tomwarren that quoted you and aswered your question with another questions instead of answering yours also has an citation about it on the Verge :
/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/11515155/acastro_180604_1777_xbox_0001.jpg)
Microsoft is only launching one next-generation Xbox, not two
Rumors suggested a second console codenamed Lockhart
www.theverge.com
With Switch, developers have to spend a lot of extra time to get builds that run decently. If developers have to spend anywhere near that level of effort just to get Lockhart to work, they would have a very negative view of the console. Switch is still a bad example.
User Banned (1 week): Hostility, console warring
I can't believe I'm STILL reading people talking about how the Series S Lockhart will hold back games, or that its slower than an xbox one X. Lockhart will have the same CPU (slightly slower but that's ok due to decreased workload), the same SSD speed (though size may be smaller), same memory speed (though smaller size, again ok due to decreased memory footprint of not hitting 4k resolution as that takes up a large whack of vram) and 4tf RDNA 2 GPU (which is more than enough to handle a 4k game at 1080p or a 1440p game at checker board).
The fact I'm still seeing people say "its only 4tf? But the One X was 6tf, this thing is shit!" shows just how little people know not just about how development processes work, but also how hardware configurations work. The hardware inside the Lockhart is leaps and bounds better than the One X, its a full generation ahead.
If MS release this as a 1080p equivalent of the Series X, maybe with a few bells and whistles turned off (likely ray tracing but hey, we have no idea), and give this a decent price... This thing WILL sell stupidly good. A lot of people don't have a 4k TV set, and this year money has hit them hard. The choice of a $400/$450/$500 console OR a machine that does the same stuff at the max res their TV supports for nearly half the price...? That's an utterly INSANE deal.
I'm likely going to pick one up just for the bedroom to replace my One X, and my Series X will go alongside my Switch/PS5 in the living room.
And I'm telling you now... If the actual final design some how ends up being that damn white cube that's been floating around... I may even pick up another one just for the damn sheer sexiness of it.
Sorry but there are few people in the world I would listen to less than Jason Schreier. The guy bleeds Playstation, and is about as biased as they come, its bad.
The fact I'm still seeing people say "its only 4tf? But the One X was 6tf, this thing is shit!" shows just how little people know not just about how development processes work, but also how hardware configurations work. The hardware inside the Lockhart is leaps and bounds better than the One X, its a full generation ahead.
If MS release this as a 1080p equivalent of the Series X, maybe with a few bells and whistles turned off (likely ray tracing but hey, we have no idea), and give this a decent price... This thing WILL sell stupidly good. A lot of people don't have a 4k TV set, and this year money has hit them hard. The choice of a $400/$450/$500 console OR a machine that does the same stuff at the max res their TV supports for nearly half the price...? That's an utterly INSANE deal.
I'm likely going to pick one up just for the bedroom to replace my One X, and my Series X will go alongside my Switch/PS5 in the living room.
And I'm telling you now... If the actual final design some how ends up being that damn white cube that's been floating around... I may even pick up another one just for the damn sheer sexiness of it.
Sorry but there are few people in the world I would listen to less than Jason Schreier. The guy bleeds Playstation, and is about as biased as they come, its bad.
The best engineers in the world will find it hard to boil assumptions into hardware that will fit all games perfectly well.
It's true of every box, but if you add a second one into the mix that needs to be supported, it adds extra assumptions about how the excess of resources in the more powerful SKU can/should be used.
In the end I'd like to see what developers, across a spectrum, think. I've a feeling thoughts on it will be very mixed. I think for some devs it won't make any difference - because indeed, I expect MS has made intelligent choices that probably do fit pretty transparently into how a lot of games scale or will need next-gen. For some I think it could make a difference. We've people here poo-poo-ing any questioning of how Lockhart might affect development next gen, but I'm reminded that the off-the-record reporting we've had thusfar on developer feedback on Lockhart hasn't been overwhelmingly positive. And not just in a 'oh it's another target to check' kind of way.
If it has decent upscaling tech in it, most wont notice the difference. If they hit $299 as well, could be a good move in the end. Despite my indifference towards the product.
then what is it?
lockhart only exists if it makes sense to consumers and developers. it will work simply because if it didnt, it wouldnt be a thing.
I seriously doubt £249 but if it was I would get one over the XSX. Tom has said it won't be cheap so I more expect £350. Especially as most here at the same time expect expensive ~£500 PS5/XSX.
Thanks Gavin, someone gets it :)
As far as I'm aware, Lockhart will support raytracing.
At 4TF RDNA2 it's significantly faster than One X in every, single scenario.
Disappointed by the lack of ram.
I was expecting Xbox one X level of performance for the GPU + zen2 + SSD.
Now that we know that it has less ram than One X it means that Xbox one games won't run with the ONE X profile.
Sad news :(
At least now we now the memory of that thing. 7.5GB for games + 2.5GB for the OS = 10GB total.
That means Microsoft has put a 160 bits memory bus, for a bandwith of 280GB/S. Not bad compared to a PS4 pro (216) or a Radeon 5500XT (224) but still less than Xbox One X (324).
I was expecting Xbox one X level of performance for the GPU + zen2 + SSD.
Now that we know that it has less ram than One X it means that Xbox one games won't run with the ONE X profile.
Sad news :(
At least now we now the memory of that thing. 7.5GB for games + 2.5GB for the OS = 10GB total.
That means Microsoft has put a 160 bits memory bus, for a bandwith of 280GB/S. Not bad compared to a PS4 pro (216) or a Radeon 5500XT (224) but still less than Xbox One X (324).
I own a 4K TV. Xbox most likely won't be the primary way I play games next generation but I'd like to stay in the ecosystem because Gamepass is a good value and it'd be how I play first party games. If the thing costs $300 that puts it to where the One X is regularly costed at and if the thing isn't better than the device I already own (I'm seeing posts say it shouldn't output 4K at all?) because I'm playing it on a 4K then just seems a little disappointing.
I know. My point was specifically in reference to the guy saying Lockhart wouldn't be getting the benefits on backwards compability that the One X currently gets. Its a more powerful device so it should at least have parity across the board with the current system.
100% agree with you. £249 is the price MS should be aiming for, if at all possible.
I doubt £199 is on the cards tbh, but you never know.
I wonder now if Lockhart has been teetering on the edge of cancellation. Maybe it's just a contingency plan in case PS5 undercuts XSX
Everyone is Kvetching about dem flops, but what I'm worried about is memory. If there's only 7.5GB to work with, I could see that being a way bigger detractor for devs than terryflops.
When Sony said that teraflops don't tell the whole story, they were pushing back against their lower number compared to Xbox Series X which also uses RDNA architecture. Lockheart is different as you're comparing to GCN architecture which is less efficient. Lockheart should be MUCH more capable than Xbox One X when you consider the change in architecture, imoroved memory, the CPU, SSD and 1080p-1440p target resolution. I'm guessing you already knew all this, though, and trying to muddy the waters.
Yeah £249 is unlikely. If it is really just a slight CPU downclock, smaller GPU and no blu-ray drive then £299 is a good price.
In the UK I'm expecting the PS5 digital to come in at £450 (£400 if Sony is being aggressive). Lockhart needs to be £100+ away from that price point, ideally £125-150.
If it does then, wow. That's an incredible package for people strapped for cash at a time like this. Lets not forget the Christmas present fiasco of retail, where little Timmy has a mum/dad go in and look at the consoles. These will be VERY pricey, but then when they see Series S sat there that plays the same games just in 1080p, like his bedroom TV... But nearly half the price... Its going to be no contest.
I mean, its still possible that if it supports ray tracing capabilities, its using a more cut down version like the PS5 stuff we have seen so far. Quarter res with limited bounce for reflection for example. It still gives a great result for a brilliant overall picture, its just not as high end as Series X.
But we already know pretty much everything about the other consoles, what's left to leak?
It isn't actually that complicated.
PS4 - PS4 Pro
Xbox One S - Xbox One X
Xbox Lockhart (probably called Xbox Series S) will be base
Xbox Series X will be top end
I imagine Xbox will keep this naming around for a while, and may even refresh the devices over time while keeping the names. Think iPad and iPad Pro.
it does seem like a big drop, however if much of that ram is to hold assets, which are 25% the size of it's bigger brother, then less ram is needed. That difference may be even less Linear in terms of a reduction when the velocity architecture stuff is factored in.
Thanks for this post. People dismissing the idea of Lockhart without any idea what it actually is.
Interesting.
I don't think it's fair to doubt someone's work using this kind of argument...
What you're suggesting is that games can be agnostic to performance envelopes - that no game could ever be made that would exceed any given performance envelope from Switch onward - and that is 'pure bullshit'. Unity and Unreal don't magically scale anything you build on them to any performance target.
There's a reason many games, if they come to Switch at all, come much later. In the more ambitious cases they're after-the-fact ports that at the outset of the port may not be viable at all, and are explored in a 'fingers crossed' kind of way. Factor Switch in for a day and date release in more demanding releases, and you may well have a slipped schedule or changes to game scope.
We are not at a point where devs can close their eyes, make whatever game they want, and know it's going to easily scale up and down.
This doesn't mean Lockhart's going to be some big problem, I don't expect it typically will be. But deferring to Switch ports is massively oversimplifying things.
I'm afraid it's the internet :-(
Just take a deep breath and enjoy the next news story, whatever it might be :-)
Less so about the Series X, but we don't even know what the back of the PS5 looks like for example.
Leaked Microsoft document hints at second next-gen Xbox
Microsoft has still not publicly acknowledged its Lockhart plans
I think this info is new, so new thread. Or not new, but confirmation. Lock if necessary.
regards to price:
Yep, Microsoft is going to fuck the pricing up per usual.
i think it *was, hence the cancellation rumors, but is beyond that now. maybe MS thought sony would come in cheaper and wouldnt have the same impact but its become clearer that they'll be in the same ballpark as xsx?
PS5DE all but ensures that Lockhart is coming out but I don't think it was ever going to be cancelled. The entire point of Lockhart is low barrier for entry into next gen and it's something that can shrink in price faster than XSX or PS5 over the generation meaning we'll get to something like a $199 Series S in less time than we have with Xbox One or PS4.
Thanks guys for your input. I think some of the obtuseness in this thread must be deliberate since it's so out-of-character for an enthusiast forum.
To each their own. But for me, while everybody is entitled to a preference, I believe if you are reporting on gaming as a whole, a bias towards one means I don't tend to really listen to you as an authority. He does tend to favour Sony, and downplays xbox a LOT. But that's just my personal take on matters.
EDIT: Certainly don't mean it as an attack, however. But that's just from what I've seen with my own eyes.
Horrible pricing for a system that will hold back next gen
The new system has to me marginally faster and have better graphics than the Xbox one X and sell at 249.99 to make a real impact IMHO.
What would fundamentally be the difference between Lockheart for owners of HD TVs (and who will not migrate to a 4K screen anytime soon) and the Wii's strategy with CRT users back in 2006?
They look very similar to me.