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lashman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
161


Do the Venezuelan opposition live up to the flawless image that they project? Let's find out.

This was exhaustively researched - 70-80+ hours of work. Hope you enjoy!

Don't believe the lies about Venezuela, and don't pretend to care about the people of Venezuela just so you can make snarky reactionary talking points. Instead, watch this video and learn a thing or two!

this time there will be no tl;dr for this video, i'm sorry ... there is just no way to do a short writeup for this kind of video - it's basically a recent(ish) history of Venezuelan opposition (with a metric fucktonne of sources - all in the video description). Who, where, when and what.

(if someone comes up with a short write-up - i'll add it to the OP, but i just can't think of one, sorry ... if that's not enough then just close the thread - either way i hope at least some people will watch the video regardless)


---


So I finally watched the full video and will try to give a brief summary.

It starts out with some history about Chavez and the start of his political career (two failed coups, imprisonment, and then a pardon). When Chavez came into power, the "opposition", right-wing, pro-business, pro-free-market were "cautiously optimistic" about him, and so was the US. BadEmpenada uses "opposition" a lot to refer to this entire cadre, think of them as the analogue America's "Wall Street" I guess? I'm going to use "opposition" here as shorthand as well.

Once Chavez seemed to live up to his socialist ideals, especially with nationalizing oil, the business side of things started to oppose him (with the backing of the US, who wanted Venezuela to be a more "open" oil supplier). They organized some protests, some general strikes (which worsened the recession).

There's a lot of stuff here I won't go into because it all kind of blends together. The key thesis of the video is the "opposition", rather than build an electoral rival to Chavez, kept inciting protests, strikes, referendums and coups to try to oust Chavez. They also consistently painted Chavez as a tyrant/despot (this will be key later) in the privately owned media, as well as with what made it to the international media.

Chavez dies, Maduro comes in. The 2013 election happens where Maduro beats the opposition by 1.5% which is a slim margin. The opposition asks for a recount. I think an audit was done by UNASUR, a LatAm organization. They reconfirmed Maduro's victory, the opposition (and the US) continue to reject the results.

A new central figure in the video is Leopold Lopez, who the video paints as a pro-business, power-hungry politician who does the usual song and dance about "I'm a defender of democracy" even as he tries to undermine it. Like with Chavez, Leopold allegedly instigated or had a hand in instigating protests and a coup against Maduro. Lopez has cultivated a rosy image in the international media community, where he's compared to Mandela, Ghandi and MLK.

Something surprising happens in 2014, where Maduro's (and Chavez's) party, PSUV, suffered a massive defeat in the National Assembly to the social democratic group, AD (Acción Democrática). The opposition (still the business faction) was very heartened by this and conveniently forgot about their last decade of coup attempts.

This is where, according to the video, things go south. Instead of accepting AD's legitimate victory, Maduro made a blatant power grab by attempting to create the "National Communal Assembly", supposedly a adjunct branch to the National Assembly but clearly just an attempt to cement PSUV power before they gave control of the NA to AD. He successfully does this later in 2017.

By 2018, Maduro was jailing his opponents, leading to the election most countries decry as fraudulent, especially the surrounding countries and the US.


The next topic is Guaido himself. The video says Guaido is a political nobody, and he's probably being backed by foreign interests (including the US).


There's also some stuff linking him to the aforementioned Leopold Lopez and there's some conspiracy sounding stuff that Lopez is pulling Guaido's strings from political house arrest (where Maduro put him).

After this there's more trashtalking about the US, more trashtalking about media FUD.

He ends the video preempting some questions which he could see coming (a lot of which we went over in this thread and in other threads). He you can't really trust random people on the internet (in the same way you can't do this for your own country's politics) and the biggest polling organization that reports on Venezuela, is pretty skewed.

AT THE REQUEST OF FOLLOWERS WE REMEMBER THE RESULTS OF OUR LAST SURVEY:

Unfortunately we went to another level, time is over and there is no return.

The people need an answer today.

No hesitation.

THE PEOPLE ARE WISE, I SUPPORT THEM, SAID AND WAIT FOR IT (military intervention, clarification mine).

According to MEGANALISIS 82% of Venezuelans see socialism as "the most destructive political ideology" Another poll by the same company assures that 84% of the population would like to see the United States as "Venezuela's main political and economic partner"

As for talking to actual Venezuelans, as we do here with Mugy and Machado and another poster whose name I forgot who posted in one of the original threads, BadEmpenada says he's from Buenos Aires which has tons of Venezuelan migrants and this is where he draws his anecdotal evidence from. His impression is that there's no one singular united opinion, but there is a general feeling of hopelessness and lack of faith in Venezuelan political institutions from people who live there and people who've left.

https://nacla.org/news/2019/02/26/venezuela's-popular-sectors-and-future-country
Venezuela's Popular Sectors and the Future of a Country


There's a small amount of Maduro true believers and a small amount of Guaido true believers but most people are either anti-Maduro (so they align with Guaido) or anti-Guaido (so they align with Maduro).

Also BadEmpenada agrees with most people here that "Maduro has to go" but he distrusts Guaido to a great extent.



That's all of it I think. Anyway these opinions are not my own, it's just my summary of the video which is long and full of citations so I have trouble dismissing it outright. BadEmpenada looks like a he's a relatively new lefty-tuber from Argentina in the vein of PhilosophyTube or DoNotEat01, focusing on LatAm culture and politics. For example, he has a video about "Latin American fascism and Bolsonaro", and a video about "why Pinochet apologists are wrong". He knows his audience is going to skew internet left and that there's even going to be supporters of Maduro watching his vid. He apologizes in advance to these people for not personally supporting Maduro and Chavismo Socialism, so he's self aware about what kind of person he is and who's likely to watch his video.

My impression of him is that he's a credible (though I've only watched one video so grain of salt here), lefty commentator who hates US imperialism and capitalism. He's less meme-y than the Chapo Trap House guys and more research/citation heavy like the other YouTubers I mentioned. He is not a dogmatic ideologue like some internet lefties can be, as in, he seems to draw from actual sources rather than making stuff up to push a narrative (socialism good, capitalism bad). I will continue to watch him in the future, probably. Whether anyone else does so is up to themselves.
 
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Mugy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,424
I know i wrote a few days ago that i was gonna refrain from writing about my own country, but all i'm gonna say is this: I know, first hand, this government. My father work with 3 security ministers and 2 former governors. I worked as Attorney General last year. I studied 6 years of laws here.

If you want to ask anything specific about my own country instead of rellying on a Youtube video, i will respond. I'm not gonna post anything about me or my father's personal data, because i don't know if any of you guys happens to be a Venezuelan too.

All i'm gonna say is this: In the general attorney's office of my city, we are given the order to NOT take any formal complaint about anybody who is connected to either the governor, or chavismo in general. We we enter the office, we had identify ourselves with the chavismo salute: "Chávez vive, la patría sigue". They really review our social network attitudes, so they can verify we don't talk shit about the government. Sometimes, the general prosecutor of the state is given the order to do a false case file to incriminate people who are innocent. Mostly opposition leaders.

I'm not talking about economics. I'm not talking about political views. I'm talking about something as basic for a society as a fair Justice System. The rest is up to you guys imagination.

Two things i can guarentee you guys:

- This is mostly chavismo fault. But this country was bad before that, when the both most big political parties were still around
- All Maduro and Chávez did, are political decisions. People dying of hunger, of diseases that were supposed to be erradicated, and etc, are because they want us on our feet. That i can asure you guys.

Take it from me: 6 years of studies. A family who worked for the government, my father have two masters on criminal sciences, my sister is a dentist.

In the end, my mother died because of the lack of medicines. My father works 18hrs daily because of reasons i don't know, and my sister earns 10$ monthly. I? i have nothing. At all. This dictatorship took it all away from me.

From here own, you guys are free to believe either me, who still lives here, or an Youtube video. Is up to you!
 
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capitalCORN

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,436
I know i wrote a few days ago that i was gonna refrain from writing about my own country, but all i'm gonna say is this: I know, first hand, this government. My father work with 3 security ministers and 2 former governors. I worked as Attorney General last year. I studied 6 years of laws here.

If you want to ask anything specific about my own country instead of rellying on a Youtube video, i will respond. I'm not gonna post anything about me or my father's personal data, because i don't know if any of you guys happens to be a Venezuelan too.

All i'm gonna say is this: In the general attorney's office of my city, we are given the order to NOT take any formal complaint about anybody who is connected to either the governor, or chavismo in general. We we enter the office, we had identify ourselves with the chavismo salute: "Chávez vive, la patría sigue". They really review our social network attitudes, so they can verify we don't talk shit about the government. Sometimes, the general prosecutor of the state is given the order to do a false case file to incriminate people who are innocent. Mostly opposition leaders.

I'm not talking about economics. I'm not talking about political views. I'm talking about something as basic for a society as a fair Justice System. The rest is up to you guys imagination.

Two things i can guarentee you guys:

- This is mostly chavismo fault. But this country was bad before that, when the both most big political parties were still around
- All Maduro and Chávez did, are political decisions. People dying of hunger, of diseases that were supposed to be erradicated, and etc, are because they want us on our feet. That i can asure you guys.

Take it from me: 6 years of studies. A family who worked for the government, my father have two masters on criminal sciences, my sister is a dentist.

In the end, my mother died because of the lack of medicines. My father works 18hrs daily because of reasons i don't know, and my sister earns 10$ monthly. I? i have nothing. At all. This dictatorship took it all away from me.

From here own, you guys are free to believe either me, who still lives here, or an Youtube video. Is up to you!
I can understand your feelings, being Argentinian. But fuck sticky America fingers.
 

Mugy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,424
I can understand your feelings, being Argentinian. But fuck sticky America fingers.
I have 26 years old. My mother died, i couldn't do anything because i couldn't find the medicines, they were not here. I did all my studies and i still earn 6$ monthly. All of my friends left the country looking for a life. I haven't because i don't have the money. I don't think you understand me, sorry.

At this point, if you think USA fingers on Venezuela are bad let me tell you something; as somebody who lives here, i couldn't care less. I just want this to finish already. And that can only happen if Maduro and all of the fuckers around him, leave. But they aren't gonna. And Tareck el Aissami, former vice-president, is a killer. He appeared on a case on Amazonas about the killing of 12 man who worked for the CIPC. The case file is still in the offices of caracas. I saw it.

If you are expecting me to not accept a USA military action; again, i don't care. Its easy to blame USA or talk about politics and shit without living here. Not a country in the world has the inflation and killing this country have.

I'm not gonna let these fuckers take the rest of my life. They already did with my mother and with almost all of my youth years. My friends, my liberties. If USA is what be need, so be it. Is my life we are talking here; who cares about whatever happens after these fuckers left by force? it can't be worse than already is.

No man, Maduro is not gonna destroy the rest of my life. I still want to live, own consoles, have a family of my own. Nothing of that is gonna happen as long as he is still here. Who cares about USA killing him. Do it. Whatever. The only people who is against USA-Venezuela, are either chavismo activist, of people who doesn't live here.

Ironic...
 

capitalCORN

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,436
I have 26 years old. My mother died, i couldn't do anything because i couldn't find the medicines, they were not here. I did all my studies and i still earn 6$ monthly. All of my friends left the country looking for a life. I haven't because i don't have the money. I don't think you understand me, sorry.

At this point, if you think USA fingers on Venezuela are bad let me tell you something; as somebody who lives here, i couldn't care less. I just want this to finish already. And that can only happen if Maduro and all of the fuckers around him, leave. But they aren't gonna. And Tareck el Aissami, former vice-president, is a killer. He appeared on a case on Amazonas about the killing of 12 man who worked for the CIPC. The case file is still in the offices of caracas. I saw it.

If you are expecting me to not accept a USA military action; again, i don't care. Its easy to blame USA or talk about politics and shit without living here. Not a country in the world has the inflation and killing this country have.

I'm not gonna let these fuckers take the rest of my life. They already did with my mother and with almost all of my youth years. My friends, my liberties. If USA is what be need, so be it. Is my life we are talking here; who cares about whatever happens after these fuckers left by force? it can't be worse than already is.

No man, Maduro is not gonna destroy the rest of my life. I still want to live, own consoles, have a family of my own. Nothing of that is gonna happen as long as he is still here. Who cares about USA killing him. Do it. Whatever. The only people who is against USA-Venezuela, are either chavismo activist, of people who doesn't live here.

Ironic...
I'm sorry to hear that, you've been through a lot. But I'm just warning you war is a special kind of Hell.
 

Sal_S

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,476
Hamilton
I'm gonna guess this is a "yeah, Maduro is an oppressive dictator, but the opposition is also bad!" video.
Both siding a country where 1 party has been in power for nearly 20 years. Very cool
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
From here own, you guys are free to believe either me, who still lives here, or an Youtube video. Is up to you!
Well, you haven't really talked about what that video was discussing, so there's no really need to choose here.
It really wouldn't surprise me if a random video on youtube is full of shit and just straight up lies, but it would help if you could engage with what the video is actually saying, which is not "Maduro is awesome".
 

Deleted member 19003

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,809
I have 26 years old. My mother died, i couldn't do anything because i couldn't find the medicines, they were not here. I did all my studies and i still earn 6$ monthly. All of my friends left the country looking for a life. I haven't because i don't have the money. I don't think you understand me, sorry.

At this point, if you think USA fingers on Venezuela are bad let me tell you something; as somebody who lives here, i couldn't care less. I just want this to finish already. And that can only happen if Maduro and all of the fuckers around him, leave. But they aren't gonna. And Tareck el Aissami, former vice-president, is a killer. He appeared on a case on Amazonas about the killing of 12 man who worked for the CIPC. The case file is still in the offices of caracas. I saw it.

If you are expecting me to not accept a USA military action; again, i don't care. Its easy to blame USA or talk about politics and shit without living here. Not a country in the world has the inflation and killing this country have.

I'm not gonna let these fuckers take the rest of my life. They already did with my mother and with almost all of my youth years. My friends, my liberties. If USA is what be need, so be it. Is my life we are talking here; who cares about whatever happens after these fuckers left by force? it can't be worse than already is.

No man, Maduro is not gonna destroy the rest of my life. I still want to live, own consoles, have a family of my own. Nothing of that is gonna happen as long as he is still here. Who cares about USA killing him. Do it. Whatever. The only people who is against USA-Venezuela, are either chavismo activist, of people who doesn't live here.

Ironic...
I've seen you post in a lot of Venezuela topics with people talking about your situation like they know better than you. Mostly just to grumble anti-US talking points in the face of your suffering. Very sorry about your mother, and I hope for positive change in your country, USA or not. God bless and take care.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
I'm gonna guess this is a "yeah, Maduro is an oppressive dictator, but the opposition is also bad!" video.
Both siding a country where 1 party has been in power for nearly 20 years. Very cool
Can you think of a single person that the US backed in Latin American struggle for power that didn't end up an awful human being who sold their country for the interests of rich people?
I cannot, and given the history of US interventions in Latin America I don't think it's unreasonable to be very wary of the allies it finds there and to demand they're scrutinized, especially with the idiots currently in charge of the white house.
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
1. I have never heard anyone describe the Venezuelan opposition as "flawless" except in the OP. In fact it is mostly described as a fractious shitshow of personalities, philosophies and infighting.
2. The damage to Venezuela was done directly by Chavez and then Maduro in full view of the public, and against several different types and faces of opposition. And the election fraud and violations are well reported and evident.



3. Yes American adventurism is literally and demonstrably disgraceful but that's not why Venezuelan soldiers are setting fire to aid trucks and shooting civilians despite John Bolton's current fantasies. The threat of American intervention is quite real but it doesn't make Maduro or the Chavismo legacy any better. Go make a post about American interference in Central and South America -- or connect it directly to these events.

And as usual we have Venezuelan posters describing the situation on the ground and being ignored or whataboutted. Sorry guys.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Can you think of a single person that the US backed in Latin American struggle for power that didn't end up an awful human being who sold their country for the interests of rich people?
I cannot, and given the history of US interventions in Latin America I don't think it's unreasonable to be very wary of the allies it finds there and to demand they're scrutinized, especially with the idiots currently in charge of the white house.

Being wary is understandable, leaving Maduro in power is not. The US sitting out leaves the latter more of a reality. There are no good guys here and certify no simple solutions.
 

Niks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,296
Latin American here.
US intervention is bad. Everyone knows the US is only interested in Venezuela because of the oil.

BUT, (and this is the mother of all buts), Chavismo brought Venezuela to its knees. Its been 20 years, and theres no sign of things changing any time soon. After 20 years of the same shit EVEN military intervention by the US (with all of its pitfalls) look really attractive.

People are fed up (ironic, I know)


Check this shit out.

 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Being wary is understandable, leaving Maduro in power is not. The US sitting out leaves the latter more of a reality. There are no good guys here and certify no simple solutions.
Again, can you think of a single example where a US intervention in Latin America ended up being a good idea?
We have a very long history with a whole lot of examples and I cannot think of a single case.

If not, what makes you think these guys are gonna break that streak that has been going for well over a century?
 
Nov 19, 2017
160
Maduro needs to go. That definitely wont mean shit will be all good. Zimbabweans fighting for independence went from minority white leadership to fucking Mugabe. Most dont even know of the ethnic violence he perpetrated on the Ndebele.
Now Mugabe's gone, everythings great!
Actually the government cracked down on protesters and soldiers were involved in murder, rape and violence.
Its gonna be messy.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Again, can you think of a single example where a US intervention in Latin America ended up being a good idea?
We have a very long history with a whole lot of examples and I cannot think of a single case.

If not, what makes you think these guys are gonna break that streak that has been going for well over a century?

I'm not disagreeing here, but you're not offering me, or Venezuela, a realistic alternative. How do you get Maduro out without the US?
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
I'm not disagreeing here, but you're not offering me, or Venezuela, a realistic alternative. How do you get Maduro out without the US?
I don't think the only two options here are do nothing or let Bolton install a right wing dude who is gonna privatize Venezuela oil industry.
For example, Mexico, Uruguay and the Vatican offered to mediate this crisis, all are way more credible actors than the US if you ask me, but the US rejected that idea, because the US only really care about one thing here.
Like, does anyone think this or any administration would have given a single shit about the people of Venezuela is they had a private oil industry that gave access to American companies?
 

Sal_S

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,476
Hamilton
Can you think of a single person that the US backed in Latin American struggle for power that didn't end up an awful human being who sold their country for the interests of rich people?
I cannot, and given the history of US interventions in Latin America I don't think it's unreasonable to be very wary of the allies it finds there and to demand they're scrutinized, especially with the idiots currently in charge of the white house.
Guaido is backed by over 60 countries and the overwhelming majority of Venezuelans. The US isn't the only country in the world, it also isn't the only country with a terrible administration.
Maduro has been directly involved in the murder of hundreds of protestors and arrest of dozens of opposition politicians.
Guaido is trying to get food and medicine to the hands of poor and suffering Venezuelans. I know who the right choice is.
For what it's worth, a peaceful and democratic transition has been off the table since around 2014 (I was there). Don't see that changing with dialogue.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
I don't think the only two options here are do nothing or let Bolton install a right wing dude who is gonna privatize Venezuela oil industry.
For example, Mexico, Uruguay and the Vatican offered to mediate this crisis, all are way more credible actors than the US if you ask me, but the US rejected that idea, because the US only really care about one thing here.
Like, does anyone think this or any administration would have given a single shit about the people of Venezuela is they had a private oil industry that gave access to American companies?

I thought the Vatican tried and failed? Are there any other ideas that the US can't override? Something workable.
 

BlueTsunami

Member
Oct 29, 2017
8,499
Looking at that twitter video of the Government backed roving and armed motorcycle gang. How do you even begin to mediate towards something that walks back that?
 

Niks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,296
I don't think the only two options here are do nothing or let Bolton install a right wing dude who is gonna privatize Venezuela oil industry.
For example, Mexico, Uruguay and the Vatican offered to mediate this crisis, all are way more credible actors than the US if you ask me, but the US rejected that idea, because the US only really care about one thing here.
Like, does anyone think this or any administration would have given a single shit about the people of Venezuela is they had a private oil industry that gave access to American companies?


Im sorry, they offered to mediate what exactly? How to let Maduro stay in power?
The international community asked Maduro to repeat the elections... what did Maduro say again?
 

FeliciaFelix

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,778
The USA has gone senile. You dont want that monkey paw evil on you. That said, can't other countries step up?
 
Oct 27, 2017
44,938
Seattle
I'm sorry to hear that, you've been through a lot. But I'm just warning you war is a special kind of Hell.

He lost his god damn mother and is living the hell you are warning him about.

I've seen this notion by people not in crisis, explaining to Venezuelans 'you don't want this'. People respond they just want medicine and food. I'm guessing they would rather be full and be a puppet regime, than the hell they are in now.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Guaido is backed by over 60 countries and the overwhelming majority of Venezuelans. The US isn't the only country in the world, it also isn't the only country with a terrible administration.
Maduro has been directly involved in the murder of hundreds of protestors and arrest of dozens of opposition politicians.
Guaido is trying to get food and medicine to the hands of poor and suffering Venezuelans. I know who the right choice is.
For what it's worth, a peaceful and democratic transition has been off the table since around 2014 (I was there). Don't see that changing with dialogue.
So you can't think of a single example then?
So what you're saying is that even though every single US intervention in Latin America ended up being a bad idea, you think Trump and Bolton are gonna be the ones who gonna have A Good One, finally.

I mean, what you're saying is exactly what was said before every single one of those intervention, seriously -
ronald reagan said:
The Sandinistas have revoked the civil liberties of the Nicaraguan people, depriving them of any legal right to speak, to publish, to assemble or to worship freely. Independent newspapers have been shut down. There is no longer any independent labor movement in Nicaragua nor any right to strike. As A.F.L.-C.I.O. leader Lane Kirkland has said, ''Nicaragua's headlong rush into the totalitarian camp cannot be denied by any who has eyes to see.''

He wasn't even 100% wrong there, but like, we all know how horribly this shit went, especially for the people who the US were supposed to help.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Im sorry, they offered to mediate what exactly? How to let Maduro stay in power?
The international community asked Maduro to repeat the elections... what did Maduro say again?
I thought they offered to mediate talks between Maduro and Guaido which the US and Guaido rejected.
I can't read Spanish so it's very possible that English sources gives me a wrong picture, especially as the quality of reporting from Venezuela seems rather poor, am I wrong here?
 

FeliciaFelix

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,778
No other countries are stepping up as yet, how about we let the people of Venezuela decide if they want that evil on them?

If that's what they want, let them. But they have a right to an informed decision and to read the fine print.

There's always a chance that when the US fucks up, whatever is left of Chavismo will ride that anti-American (justified or not) horse right back to hell.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
There's always a chance that when the US fucks up
The problem is that if you go by history in Latin America, those odds looks like 100%.
I ask this in every single thread, can any of the people who support this intervention think of a single case where we can look back and say "yeah, that was a good idea"?
I personally cannot, and this is why I'm very very very weary of US interventions in Latin America, especially with the idiots we have in charge in the white house.
 

Ogodei

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,256
Coruscant
Maduro needs to go. That definitely wont mean shit will be all good. Zimbabweans fighting for independence went from minority white leadership to fucking Mugabe. Most dont even know of the ethnic violence he perpetrated on the Ndebele.
Now Mugabe's gone, everythings great!
Actually the government cracked down on protesters and soldiers were involved in murder, rape and violence.
Its gonna be messy.

The cycle of dictatorship is a byproduct of the legacy of oppression. In a society that has not known freedoms it is hard to inculcate the idea that power should be used for something other than enriching (or at least empowering) yourself and your followers. It's difficult for pluralism to emerge in that case which is why many countries reel from one type of tyranny to the next, why the countries where slavery was present are worse off than the countries where it was not.

Interestingly Venezuela may have a chance now, because the anti-Maduro coalition is broad and inclusive which is an important step in breaking the cycle, because the opposition factions may have to share power and from there build on an inclusive system rather than another regime looking to pump the country's oil money.

A good example is South Korea. By the late 80s the coalition against military rule had grown to be very broad and inclusive of different parts of society, and so the democratic transition was successful and lasting.
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,499
UK
He lost his god damn mother and is living the hell you are warning him about.

If we want to talk about this seriously then we have to be honest about the things that have happened under US intervention in South America; especially under the orders of Elliot. If you want to consider it a serious humanitarian effort you have to consider what happened in Puerto Rico and what's happening in Haiti or how the US is still in bed with Saudi Arabia and Israel. You have to consider how the US has handled their 'aid' effort when it broke Red Cross recommendations of not politicising Aid, including how the US refused aid for Katrina from Cuba and what they would have done if they tried to push it over the order.

I'm utterly sympathetic to those who are suffering under Maduro's tyrannical regime. I hope that there's a genuine diplomatic end to this that is built around the will of the people. At the same time it's ludicrous to me to think that given the records of those who are involved in the US' current intervention that things won't get worse.

At the same time I'd really appreciate genuine critiques people have of points made in the video given coverage of Venezuela seemingly only comes from two extremes. Any specific responses to the video rather than just calling it garbage would go a long way.
 
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kambaybolongo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,022
User banned (1 week): Inflammatory false equivalence
I've seen you post in a lot of Venezuela topics with people talking about your situation like they know better than you. Mostly just to grumble anti-US talking points in the face of your suffering. Very sorry about your mother, and I hope for positive change in your country, USA or not. God bless and take care.
That person's story is heartbreaking but there are tons of people who die in America every year as well because they can't afford medicine and the democrats aren't trying to stage a coup backed by a foreign government to oust Trump.
 
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Iceman

Member
Oct 26, 2017
605
Alhambra, CA
Unbelievable. People are dying. The murder rate is obscene. Government-paid collectivos curb the opposition through violence and murder. Medicine is completely absent.

Aid is only accepted from China, India, and Russia. Cuba has countless agents in the country. I'd gladly let those other countries take the responsibilty here, but the evidence is that the country is only getting worse day by day, and the four invested nations are only interested in their oil deals and debt. The vehemence from era should be directed at them: Cuba, Russia, Cuba, and India who are acting wholly irresponsibly and against the best interests of the Venezuelan people.

Even so, I'd be in favor of those countries strong-arming Maduro into stepping down. Let's not even make this about the U.S. But let's be real... Putin isn't isnt going to lift a damn finger unless it's a poke at the US or furthers its own interests.
 

Niks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,296
I thought they offered to mediate talks between Maduro and Guaido which the US and Guaido rejected.
I can't read Spanish so it's very possible that English sources gives me a wrong picture, especially as the quality of reporting from Venezuela seems rather poor, am I wrong here?

if im wrong someone correct me

This latest flare up of tensions started, because the latest presidential elections in Venezuela were heavily rigged in Maduros favor. Even when rigged Maduro barely won. Of course the international community called in Maduros bullshit and this whole thing erupted.. Guaido rose to "power" because of this. International community asked for a repeat election this time under scrutiny of international eyes, and Maduro refused, claiming he was the rightful president of the Venezuelan people and that the US and allies were behind all this.

And here we are.
 

ChippyTurtle

Banned
Oct 13, 2018
4,773
I thought they offered to mediate talks between Maduro and Guaido which the US and Guaido rejected.
I can't read Spanish so it's very possible that English sources gives me a wrong picture, especially as the quality of reporting from Venezuela seems rather poor, am I wrong here?

From the AP: https://www.apnews.com/f950d904fc804d639867f75c04a4f545

If their reporting is to believed, the Pope has refused to open mediation talks between the opposition and Maduro after the government failed to follow up with concrete steps of reconciliation after prior talks hosted by the Vatican.
 

Kin5290

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,390
No other countries are stepping up as yet, how about we let the people of Venezuela decide if they want that evil on them?
So if Venezuela descends into a Syria-esque civil war, then would you support outside powers intervening against Maduro?

Or will the opposition need to somehow win against starvation and brutal government enforcers and the military to prove they are the legitimate voice of the people?

I love how good and proper Leftists on this forum will dismiss an actual Venezuelan's recounting of his experiences under the Maduro regime because he doesn't fit under their attitudes of what socialism is in practice.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
if im wrong someone correct me

This latest flare up of tensions started, because the latest presidential elections in Venezuela were heavily rigged in Maduros favor. Even when rigged Maduro barely won. Of course the international community called in Maduros bullshit and this whole thing erupted.. Guaido rose to "power" because of this. International community asked for a repeat election this time under scrutiny of international eyes, and Maduro refused, claiming he was the rightful president of the Venezuelan people and that the US and allies were behind all this.

And here we are.
I was talking about the mediation attempt by Mexico, Uruguay and The Vatican, you seemed to imply that this was not a serious option anyone should considered, and I wondered why.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say with this post if I'm honest.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
From the AP: https://www.apnews.com/f950d904fc804d639867f75c04a4f545

If their reporting is to believed, the Pope has refused to open mediation talks between the opposition and Maduro after the government failed to follow up with concrete steps of reconciliation after prior talks hosted by the Vatican.
Cheers, I haven't seen that.
I still see reporting that the US and Gauido rejects offers by Mexico and Uruguay to mediate, are those offers no longer on the table?
 

Niks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,296
I was talking about the mediation attempt by Mexico, Uruguay and The Vatican, you seemed to imply that this was not a serious option anyone should considered, and I wondered why.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say with this post if I'm honest.

What do you mean what?

I asked what do those countries will mediate to? To keep the status quo (meaning that Maduro stays in power)?
The sensible solution would be to do new elections, which I explained Maduro will NEVER allow.

So again, mediate torwards what exactly?
 

moomoo14

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
441
I suppose insofar as you can compare any two things, they can be compared. So let's do some comparing.

Is this really even remotely the same level of suffering in the U.S.? Like, come on here. The U.S. is paradise compared to this.
 

Slipknot666

Banned
Dec 1, 2017
1,716
As a Venezuelan living ins USA, I'll sign for the Army and go there myself to put an end to this bullshit. It has been almost 18 years since I have been in my country.
 

Machado

A friend is worth more than a million Venezuelan$
Member
Oct 26, 2017
471
Mugy buddy please PLEASE stop.

You know well we're being watched. This could get you in trouble and you know well what can happen. As a fellow era member and fellow paisano, please delete these messages.

As I have said in the past, I can't answer questions about the country being mentioned here due to security reasons. I suggest you do the same.