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Senator Toadstool

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,651
So say the same thing about Wall Street, no one is stopping you. But maybe don't do it in a thread where it comes off as trying to use the US as a shield to deflect criticism of the Saudi government. And it's utterly laughable to suggest that criticizing the Saudi government somehow means you're attacking brown people or are xenophobic, but apparently that's where we are.

I've never once done this. but what are we talking about the saudi gov??? they took money from a bank, not MBS

The point of brining up is the US is NOWHERE is there anything substantiated about this being with the gov. just a saudi bank. There's a anonymous source repeating a xenophobic trope that all US enemies governments are incestuous with their private sector (which is true of the US). Its a standard that no chinese or saudi citizen can meet because people will just insinuate that their linked to their government without evidence because "thats how their governments work". This logic isn't applied to the US and pointing that out is supposed to get people to ask, why do we talk about foreign governments in such a different way? why is this news?

If this article was about a proven or probable link ? then i'd be derailing. but its fair to say that there no reason a saudi citizen can't fund an american. but they're under the xenophobic cloud (because theirs no evidence that its linked to the government, again if there was I'd happily criticize them) there's just this thread that the russo bros did something wrong because a saudi bank was involved. What did they do wrong? take money from an arab bank?

the us examples are to show that the same thing happens here but their not criticized in the same way because these type of articles are part of a propaganda campaign to assert US and the West's dominance. this is NOT to say there aren't very real crimes done by those governments, its to promote a reflection to inquire to what purpose these articles serve. You can use real crimes that should be addressed in a propaganda campaign whose goals are entirely different than real human rights concerns!

I'm not trying to accuse anyone of intentional xenophobia but to point out these articles aren't objective and serve a purpose that's unrelated to very real human rights concerns and rely on xenophobic and racist tropes to accomplish that.

I don't think that's off topic
 

Absoludacrous

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
3,184
I'd contest that assertion.
All Saudi banks are publicly listed and by regional standards their shareholding are pretty diverse. They are well institutionalised and professionally run.
This actually happened on purpose, BTW. All the banks used to be private, but were forced to list in the 1970s with the founding merchant families and foreign banks diluting their holdings. The glaring exception was NCB, who got an exemption because the Bin Mahfouz family had a lot of connections. They managed to keep their company all theirs up until a financial scandal in the early nineties led the government to confiscate the bank and arrest the head of the family.

They are far from state owned enterprises

I see what you're saying, but I don't think you can discount the amount of money that gets funneled through them by the PIF for investing like this.

And I think that's probably an interesting conversation to have if the water wasn't muddied with all the xenophobia talk.
 
Last edited:

Senator Toadstool

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,651
I see what you're saying, but I don't think you can discount the amount of money that gets funneled through them by the PIF for investing like this.

And I think that's probably an interesting conversation to have if the water was muddied with all the xenophobia talk.
The point of bringing up the US again is why is this a problem? What differentiates this and makes this nefarious?
 

Baji Boxer

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,380
Edited: The article is trash, so I don't want to get into an argument about generalities in a thread that probably should be locked.
 

Absoludacrous

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
3,184
The point of bringing up the US again is why is this a problem? What differentiates this and makes this nefarious?

Because Saudi Arabia has specifically been investing a lot of money into the US in order to try to whitewash their image in the last couple years. So someone quietly getting 50 million from a bank with the possibility of PIF influence should at least be allowed to be talked about without a bunch of "The US is trash too! You guys didn't mention people who got money from the US so you shouldn't talk about Saudi Arabia! Racists!" that this thread very quickly devolved into.
 

Senator Toadstool

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,651
Because Saudi Arabia has specifically been investing a lot of money into the US in order to try to whitewash their image in the last couple years. So someone quietly getting 50 million from a bank with the possibility of PIF influence should at least be allowed to be talked about without a bunch of "The US is trash too! You guys didn't mention people who got money from the US so shouldn't talk about Saudi Arabia! Racists!" that this thread very quickly devolved into.

How is this nefarious when we do the same thing? https://www.state.gov/bureaus-offices/under-secretary-for-public-diplomacy-and-public-affairs/

Again, the point is this isn't whataboutism, its that its not abnormal. but its used to promote a narrative that these countries are somehow "different" and evil because it says its bad when they do it and ignores that we do it. theres a reason for that!

and it specifically says they didn't get public money which is what the PIF is.
 

Baji Boxer

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,380
One person with knowledge of the landscape said a bank investment versus cash from the Saudi public funds was "a distinction without a difference."
Ok, this statement annoys me. I don't see why you can't get a named source on a general statement on what Saudi banking is like. Normally I'd expect a quote from a named expert from a university or something.

Also I question how hard it would be to get a name of the bank.
 

Deleted member 69501

User requested account closure
Banned
May 16, 2020
1,368
"quietly secured a roughly $50 million cash"

I don't get it, aren't they a privately traded company? Should scree. it from the roof tops that someone invested money into their business ? This is a strange strange article filled with inuendo. I do understand that source of income is worth looking into but the information here is honestly paper thin.


Edit: privately held company.
 

Absoludacrous

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
3,184
How is this nefarious when we do the same thing? https://www.state.gov/bureaus-offices/under-secretary-for-public-diplomacy-and-public-affairs/

Again, the point is this isn't whataboutism, its that its not abnormal. but its used to promote a narrative that these countries are somehow "different" and evil because it says its bad when they do it and ignores that we do it. theres a reason for that!

and it specifically says they didn't get public money which is what the PIF is.

But you realize it's possible for people to think it's bad when they do it and it's bad when we do it, right? This is the concept that I don't think you guys are able to grasp. I absolutely don't think we should be out there giving money to people in the hopes that they look the other way when we go murder a bunch of people with drones. I also don't think we should look the other way when Saudi Arabia murders a journalist because they helped fund a movie we like. You've planted your feet on the wrong spot in this argument, which is why you're flailing around so hard.

It says they didn't get public money, but it also says there's a ton of public money flowing through these banks for investing. Like c'mon man.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Ok, this statement annoys me. I don't see why you can't get a named source on a general statement on what Saudi banking is like. Normally I'd expect a quote from a named expert from a university or something.

Also I question how hard it would be to get a name of the bank.
My guess is that this is someone who works for an American bank and I think they have pretty clear interest on American companies doing business with only American banks.

I suspect that's the reason they didn't put their name on it.
 

7aged

Member
Oct 28, 2017
922
I see what you're saying, but I don't think you can discount the amount of money that gets funneled through them by the PIF for investing like this.

And I think that's probably an interesting conversation to have if the water wasn't muddied with all the xenophobia talk.
TBH I would largely discount it. They're hardly suitable. Way too public. You'd use an offshore vehicle or some unknown front business.
 

Baji Boxer

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,380
The issue I have is different, it's not about how much criticism America gets in this forum (or anywhere).
I don't understand what is bar by which getting a loan from an American bank (or deutsche bank or HSBC) is fine and taking a loan from an unnamed Saudi bank isn't.

It seems like a pretty weird standard, though I am always willing to listen to arguments for this.
I had replied with an argument, but it got too far off this specific topic. Then I also decided my argument was stupid because of the following shit that U.S. banks get away with:
www.theguardian.com

How a big US bank laundered billions from Mexico's murderous drug gangs

As the violence spread, billions of dollars of cartel cash began to seep into the global financial system. But a special investigation by the Observer reveals how the increasingly frantic warnings of one London whistleblower were ignored
 

DevilMayGuy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,577
Texas
Unsure of what I'm supposed to feel at hearing that a company secured foreign funding through legal channels the same way that any other company would
 

shadoclone

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
298
So when are we gonna start getting articles every time someone gets a loan from a US bank, or (almost) any other bank? Bailouts get covered but not because the money is considered "dirty".
SNK was the actual prince though, right? There's no specificity as to where this is coming from.
You're asking a lot for people to acknowledge that there's a difference.
 

Presice

Member
Mar 1, 2018
102
I'm uncomfortable with the amount of scrutiny being placed on the Russo brothers. Whataboutism can be negative but in this instance it provides context. The US government is about to give Israel, a country with questionable human rights violations of its own, $500 million via the COVID relief bill and we seem equally worried about a production company getting a much smaller investment from a Saudi bank.
 

anamika

Member
May 18, 2018
2,622
I agree that Saudi money from Royal family/government is blood money considering their terrible record on human rights and their war on Yemen - the blockade and bombing of innocents - which has led currently to the world's biggest humanitarian crisis with millions starving to death. At the same time, I also agree that Resetera's criticism on this is hypocritical considering their celebration and adoration of war criminal and murderer of innocents Barack Obama - who funded, armed, authorized and helped the Saudis with their genocidal war in Yemen.

Era loves to point to the war crimes and human rights abuses of other countries, but will spend pages justifying US atrocities as necessary evils that an American president has no choice but to enact.
 

Kayla

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,316
God i miss marvel movies... I don't care if SA banks are funding the russo's, they make great films.
Might as well boycott everything else we consume.
 

Kayla

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,316
Thanks for notifying me of how little you care about the human rights abuse that occur under the Saudi government, on the ignore list you go!

Can you prove these banks are directly tied to the government? I'm going to be accepting blood money from my own government ($600) they have done far worse crimes against humanity.

edit: funny how people just lump everything SA to MBS as if a country this large couldn't have other sources to fund the arts. The xenophobia in this thread is incredible.
 

Hasseigaku

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,541
Can you prove these banks are directly tied to the government? I'm going to be accepting blood money from my own government ($600) they have done far worse crimes against humanity.

edit: funny how people just lump everything SA to MBS as if a country this large couldn't have other sources to fund the arts. The xenophobia in this thread is incredible.

From the article

While the Russos did not draw from any public fund, the Saudi Arabian government has stakes in the kingdom's banks, though not all are majority holdings. One person with knowledge of the landscape said a bank investment versus cash from the Saudi public funds was "a distinction without a difference."

So if nothing else money from the Saudi government is likely at least partially involved.
 

Hasseigaku

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,541
User Warned: Inflammatory Generalization
Congratulations on the derail everyone, I'm sure glad the money the House of Saud and its countrymen are making is super pure and a-ok.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
This wording imples it's not a random donation / investment they didn't have any clue where it was coming from, so yeah, somewhat damning:
In a deal brokered and closed at the beginning of the pandemic, the Russos received the investment from an undisclosed Saudi bank in exchange for a minority stake in the brothers' Los Angeles-based shop. The money is earmarked to help fund development, production and overhead, two people familiar with the transaction said.
 

pechorin

Banned
Apr 13, 2020
2,572
Congratulations on the derail everyone, I'm sure glad the money the House of Saud and its countrymen are making is super pure and a-ok.
why people keep calling it a derail when it's totally valid to bring up the US, they're literally the reason that Saudi Arabia gets away with all of those bad things.
 

MrCarter

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,509
I don't give a shit about the comic book part of all this lmao

Why is a US citizen getting dismembered more important than the war on Terror that killed thousands of innocents in the Middle East? Why do we have to selectively care. It's all fucking shitty. It should all be called out.

I feel like if you're ok with financial support from the US government but not ok with financial support from the Saudi government, then you're a fucking hypocrite

Agreed. I don't think any "super power" country is squeaky clean and welcome to capitalism folks. There is a humanitarian crisis in Yemen right now that disproportionately affects millions of children - and the counties involved in escalating this are Saudi and USA. We shouldn't be selectively caring about these things when it's all horrible.

The "ews" and "gross". How childish. But maybe I am just tired of always seeing these same posts.

Of course, but "ew" and "gross" is more akin to bigotry, in my opinion. It steps very close. It's also incredibly hypocritical.

This again. All governments do bad/shady/etc things. But whatever la-la land you guys live in thinking everyone has to be perfect is insane. And again, hypocritical given what your own country gets upto.

I'm just fed up seeing all the quick drive by "ew"/"gross" when it comes to Saudi/China/Religion/anything going against so many users here. For "open minded" folk, some are the opposite.

I _am_ Muslim, and I don't agree with CPP/Saudi government for many of their actions. But you're blanket brushing a whole bunch of people unfairly. Noone has a perfect human rights track record, but here, the hate boner on Saudi/China is ridiculous. Again, I say this as someone that feels CCP need to be called out ASAP.

I'm Muslim too and unfortunately there is some subtly xenophobia in here. For starters, although some women in the Middle East can be oppressed at times the majority are not - and they certainly are not "controlled" or "tracked" by their spouses via an app on their phones.
 

Richiek

Member
Nov 2, 2017
12,063
I'm Muslim too and unfortunately there is some subtly xenophobia in here. For starters, although some women in the Middle East can be oppressed at times the majority are not - and they certainly are not "controlled" or "tracked" by their spouses via an app on their phones.

I see the same xenophobia here when people criticize the Chinese Communist Party.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
The whole point I'm making is that I can guarantee you that this thread would not exist if the money came from the US.

And that's a problem because it means that most of you don't give a fuck about human rights. You only care when it's brown people doing it. There's a lack of consistency that, imo, is rooted in xenophobia.

Yes, the only reason we care about the Saudi government abusing its own citizens is because deep down all of Era hates brown people. You have it all figured out, chief.

Also congratulations on using literal, textbook whataboutisms to downplay human rights violations while accusing others of not giving a fuck about human rights.

This thread sure is something fucking else.
 

Hasseigaku

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,541
With very few exceptions, no one here fell off the proverbial turnip truck.

Guess what?
We know that the United States ain't shit and its banks have funded atrocities. Same goes for other countries like Israel.
We know that almost every organization is compromised through its links to disreputable lenders, disreputable practices, or nations that engage in human rights atrocities.
Those of us with access to high end technology and live in rich nations know that our lifestyles are bad for the planet and probably for other human beings.
We know. We fucking know.

But it's not like anyone chose to have such shit options. The fun thing about making us partially culpable within the design of the system is that the individual bad actors' who do have power let the blame become obfuscated and abstracted across all of us.

And the fun thing about making everyone culpable is that people get to lazily drone about how it's all bad and it doesn't matter and blah blah blah blah blah.

And to some degree that's true. Most of us have to get by with choosing what appears to be the least bad option, keeping our eye out for abuses that might make one choice morally repugnant.

None of us are working from perfect information and we can all stand to learn more than what we have, but that's not how this shit went. In a world where all of us have mostly shitty options, it doesn't add to anything to remind us that we have a lot of shitty options.

BECAUSE WE KNOW.

If you have something to add in terms of the suitability of Saudi Arabia as a funding source or of this bank in particular, great. Let's have that talk. Vague insinuations of racism and whataboutism adds nothing to the discussion and just distract from the conversation (probably on purpose, but it does). I don't think anyone pretends that we are making perfect decisions or even moral decisions. We're all just fucking doing our best out here trying to not fund shitty people or things funded by shitty people. I know me not buying Sabra hummus because it's an Israeli does nothing to change things but at the end of the day I'm at least not giving them more money.

In this case, there's obviously no way to know for sure how divorced the money is from the House of Saud or oil money in general. But I think the fact that there was not even a public gesture towards trying to figure that out from the Russos is a strong indication that they probably don't give a shit. So thus, they aren't getting my money. Does it matter? Probably not. But we all have to have imperfect decisions from imperfect information and thus here we are.
 

Deleted member 69501

User requested account closure
Banned
May 16, 2020
1,368
They dont have anything to do with Marvel right now, build their own production company.
Feige will find someone to do X-men, after all he is the mastermind of MCU not Russo brothers.

They dont have anything to do with Marvel right now, build their own production company.
Feige will find someone to do X-men, after all he is the mastermind of MCU not Russo brothers.
Fair enough, but you specifically said ensemblers cast aren't their strength. So, who in your view would be a better fit ? Cause I can't think of anyone off the top of my head
 

Hasseigaku

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,541
why people keep calling it a derail when it's totally valid to bring up the US, they're literally the reason that Saudi Arabia gets away with all of those bad things.
Y'all keep trying to have it both ways.

Either this money is totally divorced from the royal family and thus totally fine and without moral implications (totally clears the bank, thanks!).

Or this money does have something to do with the royal family but lets talk about America instead.

This is about a loan from a Saudi bank to the Russos. If we want to start talking about the systems and countries around the various atrocities committed by Saudi Arabia then that's a much much much bigger conversation.

Obviously related issues get pulled into conversations, but you can't try to talk about the entire system around individual acts in order to try and have a conversation about it.
 

Caz

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,055
Canada
why people keep calling it a derail when it's totally valid to bring up the US, they're literally the reason that Saudi Arabia gets away with all of those bad things.
Because not everyone on this website is from the U.S. and going "but what about the U.S." is irrelevant to the discussion in regards to what the Russo Bros. did. If we want to talk about what, say, Chase or J.P. Morgan in the U.S., or a bank in my country like RBC has funded, then that's a conversation that can be had and is worth discussing. It is not a point to be used for deflecting what they did and where the money they got originated from.
 

Mahonay

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,316
Pencils Vania
WarlikeAffectionateAntarcticfurseal-max-14mb.gif
 

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
god there's so much wrong with this scene lmao

the cishet director playing a gay man

the fact that it's inconsequential to the movie so it can easily be cut out

and now the directors take money from a country where same-sex intercourse is punishable by capital punishment. great stuff
You should know that you don't speak for everyone. As a gay guy who grew up watching people like me getting constantly marginalized in popular media, it's fucking annoying to see people tear into this nice heartfelt little scene because it's not some perfectly conceived and executed gay pride bonanza. Unlike the insulting and perfunctory Rise of Skywalker kiss, for instance, Endgame's support group scene puts inclusion and acceptance front and center.

The scene, placed near the beginning of the film (so it's not an RoS-style afterthought) is an important stepping stone in the plot, establishing the state of the world after Thanos's attack, and showing us how Cap copes with his failure to stop it: he turns to the humble work of supporting ordinary people.

And how is this illustrated? With a respectful portrayal of a gay man sharing a sympathetic experience. This regular gay person holds the spotlight with one of the most prominent heroes in the film. He's seen, he's listened to, he's encouraged, he's validated. Directly.

Do I want more and better gay representation by Disney across the board? Absolutely I do. Are Marvel films sorely lacking in meaningful LGBT+ representation? Absolutely they are. Is Endgame's support group scene still a positive and worthwhile step in the right direction, and does it make me feel great as a viewer who cares very much about gay acceptance in shows and films? It certainly is, and it certainly does.
 

Disco

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,451
Russos better not be involved in X-men. I really don't think ensembles are their strength

I hope not too. But better them than some bozos like Peyton Reed or whoever made the spiderman movies. Curious who they bring in for the xmen cast as well. Post Avengers that's the big marvel thing I'm excited for
 

J_Viper

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,725
I hope not too. But better them than some bozos like Peyton Reed or whoever made the spiderman movies. Curious who they bring in for the xmen cast as well. Post Avengers that's the big marvel thing I'm excited for
Henry Cavill as Scott Summers let's go

With all do respect, who has done it better ?
He who will not be named, but he directed Days of Future Past. That is still by far the best comic team film.

Also, he seems to have lost his touch, but Whedon's Avengers script is on point. I only wish Marvel didn't cheap out and hired a real filmmaker to shoot it.
 

MrCarter

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,509
You should know that you don't speak for everyone. As a gay guy who grew up watching people like me getting constantly marginalized in popular media, it's fucking annoying to see people tear into this nice heartfelt little scene because it's not some perfectly conceived and executed gay pride bonanza. Unlike the insulting and perfunctory Rise of Skywalker kiss, for instance, Endgame's support group scene puts inclusion and acceptance front and center.

The scene, placed near the beginning of the film (so it's not an RoS-style afterthought) is an important stepping stone in the plot, establishing the state of the world after Thanos's attack, and showing us how Cap copes with his failure to stop it: he turns to the humble work of supporting ordinary people.

And how is this illustrated? With a respectful portrayal of a gay man sharing a sympathetic experience. This regular gay person holds the spotlight with one of the most prominent heroes in the film. He's seen, he's listened to, he's encouraged, he's validated. Directly.

Do I want more and better gay representation by Disney across the board? Absolutely I do. Are Marvel films sorely lacking in meaningful LGBT+ representation? Absolutely they are. Is Endgame's support group scene still a positive and worthwhile step in the right direction, and does it make me feel great as a viewer who cares very much about gay acceptance in shows and films? It certainly is, and it certainly does.

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