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0451

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,190
Canada
So it's the 10 Year Anniversary of Dota 2 (EDIT: No it's not, I was corrected further down in the thread. Sorry!) and Valve's silence about it is very jarring from a company that was once the golden standard for post-launch support and communication. It's especially jarring when contrasted with how Riot handled the League of Legends 10 Year Anniversary with a massive celebration of the game and company with streams, reveals and showcases for new champions, games, TV shows, comics, music and more. Dota 2 was never as popular as League of Legends but it's more popular than pretty much everything else yet it's the game that receives the least communication and outreach and it's even crazier to think that Counter-Strike: Global Offensive gets even less attention, especially now that it consistently beats out Dota 2's numbers on Steam.

The template that Valve created on how to talk to customers and support your game and its community has been abandoned in favour of sparse communication, a lack of content and in some cases, strange priorities. One thing that Riot and other developers have done really well is cater to the different segments of the player base, especially those with little to no interest in the competitive aspects of their games. Valve has a noticeably stronger focus on the competitive aspects like the Dota Pro Circuit and International while other games are better at balancing that with making content for casual players in the form of lore dumps, comics, community content, fan service (not for me but it has a place in community building), etc. Dota gets like, one of these a year at this point and it's probably why it hemorrhaged players. There's pretty much nothing for casual players in Dota 2.

There was a glimmer of hope at the start of the year during the lead up to Half-Life: Alyx where it seemed like the old communicative Valve was coming back when they finally figured out how to use social media but they dialed it back real soon after. It is 2020 so there are a number of factors at play but that hasn't stopped every other dev. I guess this is a strange thread to make right after they updated a 10 year old game (though it was all community content) but it's just strange as a Valve fan to see how silent they are compared to other developers. I think their reluctance to adopt modern community outreach techniques and platforms (social media, Twitch Prime rewards, etc) and focusing on eSports/Competitive and nothing else is killing their games slowly (or in the case of Dota Underlords and Artifact, killing them as fast as possible). No one wants to look at their 2012 blog pages.
 
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dodo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,997
It's been weird watching them flounder with audience connection stuff after games like Overwatch basically followed their model for TF2 to the letter for a while (another game that chased esports to its detriment imo, but still). Valve was the poster child for this stuff for a long time and then just kind of stopped.
 

Navid

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,018
Was Valve ever really the "gold standard" in terms of communication..?

Edit: I should also clarify that my comment wasn't meant as either negative/positive, just personal observation. They were among the developers from that era who had the whole 'we'll release and talk about a game when it's ready" motto.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
6,033
Milwaukee, WI
No one wants to look at their 2012 blog pages.

It's a nice cheat sheet for reporters but you're right.
There was awhile where it felt like people were trading always physical games for digital, under the assumption that Steam would continue to grow and change with the frequency it did in it's first five or so years. AND there would be constant communication.

Regardless of what their strategy is today, I've been pretty confused over the past few years. Launch support has been Ubisoft for a bit, or heck Hello Games. But communication? Well everyone trades that hat. Sony 2013 to Microsoft today. And Epic in some ways.

I just don't get what changed. It's not like people left, then it changed. It changed then people left. Just a very strange shift in philosophy rather than growing.

They just updated l4d2 last month.

Yeah, this is a good shout. But the update was kind of strange and based on previously existing materials.
If anything this and Alyx make it more confusing.
 

EloKa

GSP
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,906
The lack of communication was always the biggest downside with Valve but they got better with that and seem to slowly but continually improve on that matter.
 

Ikuu

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,294
Valve have never been good for communication, they even did a talk explaining why they didn't tell people anything.
 

Ceerious

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,199
Asian
It's a pity. The landscape of gaming changed. A GaaS needs almost daily communication and bi-weekly update to survive this days, and Valve is just not competent enough anymore. Sometimes I wish Gabe to set up a new studio, specifically for the development of new games, and this new studio will not be financially supported steam money.
 

Ionic

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,734
I don't think they were ever known for their good communication. In fact not polluting the discourse with their own opinions has been in their blood for around 2 decades. But yes, they've definitely lost the post-launch support crown. Games like Fortnite have overtaken in that category. Granted you basically have to kill your developers to make updates with the cadence of Fortnite. The modern expectations of a huge live service are pretty harsh for a company with as many projects and as few employees as Valve.
 
OP
OP
0451

0451

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,190
Canada
I'm sorry...did you say Valve was a gold standard for...communication?

Yeah. I'm looking at random old pages from 2008-2011 on the Team Fortress blog and they were posting every week, sometimes 3-4 posts a week. Updates, random check-ins, community content, a random post about how the dev team is addicted to Minecraft.

It's definitely not Dota 2's 10 year anniversary. It's 10 years from when they announced it, and who celebrates that?

Oops, my bad then for the misinformation on that front. My main point still stands though.
 

Slev

Member
Oct 27, 2017
761
Valve has never been great at communication. Just they poorly did communicate first. They haven't really evolved over the years while others have.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
I think they've been pretty good on communication about the Artifact reboot. I stopped following Underlords almost immediately as the whole Auto Chess craze seemed to be a fad with companies jumping on in case the design had legs. I don't think they were ever good at traditional PR though.
 

Stat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,158
Does valve really even make games anymore? Feels like half life Alyx was the first game from them in a long long time


Was Valve ever really the "gold standard" in terms of communication..?

Agreed. Without a doubt, valve has gotten the most forgiveness/least criticism of any "game
 

1-D_FE

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,253
Was Valve ever really the "gold standard" in terms of communication..?

No. Go watch Valve's dev day videos on Youtube. Valve's policy is don't talk about anything until you're done and can talk about what you've released. Otherwise promises get broken and people get mad. There's only Valve communication when there's Valve content/product releases. No content = no communication. This is their policy.

Yeah. I'm looking at random old pages from 2008-2011 on the Team Fortress blog and they were posting every week, sometimes 3-4 posts a week. Updates, random check-ins, community content, a random post about how the dev team is addicted to Minecraft.

They were also constantly pumping out content in that period. Content = communication. No content = no communication.
 

Zoon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,397
I can't recall a time when Valve had good communication. And that's mostly because afaik they don't have a PR team.

Also, one of the negative of Valve IMO is that they are really small as studio. Last I checked there are about 350 people working there. I've no clue how efficient they are or how development works but for example bungie, which is basically a one game studio has 600 employees. Valve has to support 5 released games (Dota, CS, TF, Underlords and Artifact), work on Source 2, Steam features, new hardware and new games. Riot games has about 2500 employees and studios around the globe. Hence, the big difference in supporting their games. Weird thing is that according to Valve they are always hiring and I recall them being one of the better workplaces.
 
OP
OP
0451

0451

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,190
Canada
Does valve really even make games anymore? Feels like half life Alyx was the first game from them in a long long time

They released 3 games in the last two years. Artifact, Dota Underlords and Half-Life: Alyx. The first two aren't for everyone and definitely not the same type of product as Alyx but they're still games.
 

Firestorm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,708
Vancouver, BC
They don't really focus on esports or competitive play either lol. Comparing their support in Dota and especially CSGO to other publishers is night and day.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,367
When you're a privately owned company that claims to have a flat corporate structure (nobody tells anybody else what to do), you can do whatever the fuck you want. I'm sure nobody in the trenches at Valve wants to spend more time on social media than necessary, so why would they?

Is any of this hurting Steam's position as the dominant marketplace for PC games? Of course not.

It feels like the folks left working at Valve today are more interested in weird economics experiments (which I still think of Artifact as) than developing video games. Many of the most recognizable folks who develop video games have left. Therefore, why would they need PR and communications and social media for Steam? To tell you about the 1,000,000th Adults Only VN launching?

Valve's in a financial position to do whatever the hell they want, and nobody, including the fan base for their video games, is going to push them to do something they don't want to do. That includes developing video games. They don't have to ever ship another video game because that's not where they make their money anymore.
 
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collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
I can't recall a time when Valve had good communication. And that's mostly because afaik they don't have a PR team.

Also, one of the negative of Valve IMO is that they are really small as studio. Last I checked there are about 350 people working there. I've no clue how efficient they are or how development works but for example bungie, which is basically a one game studio has 600 employees. Valve has to support 5 released games (Dota, CS, TF, Underlords and Artifact), work on Source 2, Steam features, new hardware and new games. Riot games has about 2500 employees and studios around the globe. Hence, the big difference in supporting their games. Weird thing is that according to Valve they are always hiring and I recall them being one of the better workplaces.
My understanding is that their current hiring push didn't start until after they moved offices and redid their branding. IIRC this was around 2018 when they acquired Campo Santo.
 

Tek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8
Valve has been terrible at communication for a while now I feel. The way they've treated DOTA in the past few years is disappointing. There's almost no communication with the community about what's upcoming and what they're working on so people lose interest in the game. It's their biggest game and it feels like 3 people are working on it. The game has bled players and it could be a lot more popular if they just put in any effort to communicate with the fanbase and put the game in front of potential new players. It has some of the best tools for new and returning players, through it's in-game guides, coaching system, advanced replays/spectating, etc. but it's all wasted because it feels like valve refuses to push the game. They even have a subscription service that they still charge for yet haven't updated it in ages. I love the foundation that they've set for the game, but DOTA's development has been horrible recently and it's a shame since it's one of my favorite games of all time.
 

TheClaw7667

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,704
I don't remember ever thinking Valve was good at communicating with their community. It's something they've always been terrible at. I do agree with you about post launch support. There was no developer in the industry that was willing to support their games with as much free content for as long as they did but that has definitely changed in the last couple of years. Other developers are able to do much more it seems than Valve is willing or able to do with the GAAS model.

In regards to their communication being worse, I think it just seems worse because of how much more other developers communicate with players now compared to before. Even developers that don't have a GAAS model communicate more with players than Valve does with two of the biggest games on PC.

Also if I'm not mistaken the 10 year anniversary of Dota 2 hasn't happened yet. It's only the announcement of the game that hit 10 years.
 

Lil Peanut Brotha

Motion Graphics Artist at Riot Games
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
670
CA, USA
I don't think I ever saw Valve as super communicative. For me they were the ones who chilled out in secrecy and then suddenly revealed some mind blowing stuff every 5 years. Even though I looooved Dota 2 (my cats are named Luna and Nova lol) , I was worried in the mid 2010's they had cooled off and maybe they didn't have the talent or company focus to work on games , and were focusing more on services and hardware with VR (which is probably true to an extent).

But after Half Life Alyx, all I can say is god damn they still got it. If they became a VR only studio and keep making games of that quality I am fully on board. I don't think they will be more "open" in the future, but I'm ok with that. Since they are clearly working on top notch stuff.
 

Deleted member 73264

User requested account closure
Banned
Jun 28, 2020
201
They can sit around with their thumbs up their asses and still pull in 30% of the majority of PC sales. That kind of money inspires complacency.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,367
Oh my, that sounds dire. Post a source for us.

www.pcgamesn.com

Two former Kerbal Space Program devs have left Valve, taking their game with them

Two former Kerbal Space Program developers who joined Valve in 2016 have departed the company without shipping a game

www.polygon.com

Portal writer Erik Wolpaw leaves Valve

One of Valve’s funnier voices moves on

www.polygon.com

Half-Life series writer no longer at Valve

After 18 years, he's now a retiree

www.gamesindustry.biz

Chet Faliszek leaves Valve

Chet Faliszek, writer, VR ambassador and for many developers the public face of Valve, has confirmed exclusively to Gam…

I should have said "many of the prominent people" rather than "most."
 

Miker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,014
"Communication" aside, which I agree Valve has never been great at, the company has set the tone for modern post-launch support and marketing. Anybody who refutes is willfully ignorant or has a huge blind spot to Valve's former output and modern GaaS marketing.

Just look back at the TF2 class updates. The blog posts, the Meet the Team videos, the comics, detailed patch notes, teasers for more, all of it starting back in 2008. I remember the Scout update crashed the Steam servers.

And all of that above? It's the norm now. Hell, it's exactly what games like Apex are doing /right now/ twelve years later in 2020. Who else was doing stuff like that back then? Bungie, maybe? Look at TF2's contemporaries in 2007 when it came out and 2008, which the class updates started to roll out. CoD4 MW and Halo 3? It's not the same model, whereas TF2's model is current modern archetype.
 

strudelkuchen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,073
www.pcgamesn.com

Two former Kerbal Space Program devs have left Valve, taking their game with them

Two former Kerbal Space Program developers who joined Valve in 2016 have departed the company without shipping a game

www.polygon.com

Portal writer Erik Wolpaw leaves Valve

One of Valve’s funnier voices moves on

www.polygon.com

Half-Life series writer no longer at Valve

After 18 years, he's now a retiree

www.gamesindustry.biz

Chet Faliszek leaves Valve

Chet Faliszek, writer, VR ambassador and for many developers the public face of Valve, has confirmed exclusively to Gam…

I should have said "many of the prominent people" rather than "most."
check half-life alyx credits

people leave and join and leave and rejoin 🤷‍♂️

Writing Credits (in alphabetical order)
Marc Laidlaw ... (characters)
Marc Laidlaw ... (story consultant)
Jay Pinkerton ... (writer)
Sean Vanaman ... (writer)
Erik Wolpaw ... (writer)
 

1-D_FE

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,253
www.pcgamesn.com

Two former Kerbal Space Program devs have left Valve, taking their game with them

Two former Kerbal Space Program developers who joined Valve in 2016 have departed the company without shipping a game

www.polygon.com

Portal writer Erik Wolpaw leaves Valve

One of Valve’s funnier voices moves on

www.polygon.com

Half-Life series writer no longer at Valve

After 18 years, he's now a retiree

www.gamesindustry.biz

Chet Faliszek leaves Valve

Chet Faliszek, writer, VR ambassador and for many developers the public face of Valve, has confirmed exclusively to Gam…

I should have said "many of the prominent people" rather than "most."

I mean, all of those people left years ago and they still produced HL:A. It's not exactly proof they're incapable of making new games (if they want).
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
It was always bad but it's become more apparent in contrast to Valorant, regardless of what people think about that game as a CS:GO alternative.
I keep wondering if/when they're going to port it to Source 2 and it just doesn't seem to be happening. It seems like such a missed opportunity, but I guess they're willing to let the game wither away like TF2.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
They released 3 games in the last two years. Artifact, Dota Underlords and Half-Life: Alyx. The first two aren't for everyone and definitely not the same type of product as Alyx but they're still games.
I'm pretty sure Half-Life: Alyx isn't for everyone either lol. For a starter, it's a VR game.
 

Zoon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,397
I keep wondering if/when they're going to port it to Source 2 and it just doesn't seem to be happening. It seems like such a missed opportunity, but I guess they're willing to let the game wither away like TF2.
I don't think CSGO in Source 2 is happening. The latest CSGO update added the ability to rewind in demos which is something that afaik Source 2 can do (at least in DOTA) so I think there would be no point adding that now if the game was to ever move to Source 2. If anything I would expect a new CS game announcement in the next couple of years.
 

VeryHighlander

The Fallen
May 9, 2018
6,376
It was always bad but it's become more apparent in contrast to Valorant, regardless of what people think about that game as a CS:GO alternative.
I remember being really frustrated with Valve as a CSGO player in 2012-2016, arguably the peak of CSGO, and how uncommunicative they were and how little they gave a shit. It took them years to update Nuke and then they made it an objectively worse map that was even MORE ct-sided. Way before Valorant was a thing Valve started cheaping out hard on CSGO. Zero community interaction and they just let these shady ass leagues run tournaments. The amount of win-trading, cheating and all around controversy that happens in the pro level scene in CSGO is directly Valve's fault. But the higher ups see how much money rolls in from people addicted to skins and they just let it fester.
 

Cantaim

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,323
The Stussining
They released 3 games in the last two years. Artifact, Dota Underlords and Half-Life: Alyx. The first two aren't for everyone and definitely not the same type of product as Alyx but they're still games.
Artifact and Underlords will be ignored for "reasons". Fact of the matter is Valve is making news games and still supporting their old titles. But that isn't good enough for some people and to be quite frank. It's those peoples problem and not anyone else's that their very skewed definition of "new game" keeps pivoting so that they can keep saying Valve doesn't release new games.
 

Ionic

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,734
www.pcgamesn.com

Two former Kerbal Space Program devs have left Valve, taking their game with them

Two former Kerbal Space Program developers who joined Valve in 2016 have departed the company without shipping a game

www.polygon.com

Portal writer Erik Wolpaw leaves Valve

One of Valve’s funnier voices moves on

www.polygon.com

Half-Life series writer no longer at Valve

After 18 years, he's now a retiree

www.gamesindustry.biz

Chet Faliszek leaves Valve

Chet Faliszek, writer, VR ambassador and for many developers the public face of Valve, has confirmed exclusively to Gam…

I should have said "many of the prominent people" rather than "most."

This is like 5 people, 2 of which are literally just devs from Kerbal Space Program as opposed to historic Valve names that built the company. The others are writers, at least one of which came back to Valve as a contractor for some time for the new Half-Life. Marc was also in his mid 50's when he left Valve, and video games as a whole. Some people just retire.

Other examples might by Victor Antonov who came up with much of the oppressive atmosphere for City 17. But he left the company a couple years after Half-Life 2, well before they started their release schedule decline so I don't think we can really pin anything on that one. Kevin Bailey is a good suggestion for somebody who left during the Valve dark age. He did the excellent music for the Half-Life games but left around 2015 or 16 to work on a personal VR project. The biggest Valve exodus that I know of didn't even strictly come from people focused on game design, but from a portion of the VR team that was secretly poached by Facebook which included Michael Abrash. Interestingly, before Abrash ditched Valve for Facebook he convinced Gabe to put the kibosh on the AR team. Talk about throwing a match back as you leave the building. Regardless, I don't know if we can easily argue all or even most of their prominent game developers left the company.

I remember being really frustrated with Valve as a CSGO player in 2012-2016, arguably the peak of CSGO-

Nobody considers 2012 the peak of CSGO. I think CSGO was basically dying until mid-2014 at the earliest.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
I don't think CSGO in Source 2 is happening. The latest CSGO update added the ability to rewind in demos which is something that afaik Source 2 can do (at least in DOTA) so I think there would be no point adding that now if the game was to ever move to Source 2. If anything I would expect a new CS game announcement in the next couple of years.
Dota 2 had replay rewinding long before Reborn so I don't think it's an engine thing. I just want VR support!

As far as a sequel goes, I feel like the playerbase would throw a fit if they lost all their skins so a piecemeal revamp seems like it would make the most sense, but maybe the code is a huge mess that no one wants to touch. Who knows.
 

LinkStrikesBack

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,351
Artifact and Underlords will be ignored for "reasons". Fact of the matter is Valve is making news games and still supporting their old titles. But that isn't good enough for some people and to be quite frank. It's those peoples problem and not anyone else's that their very skewed definition of "new game" keeps pivoting so that they can keep saying Valve doesn't release new games.

I mean, the only valve games I've enjoyed with the exception of a short stint with Team fortress 2 like a decade ago are single player big FPS games like half life and portal. I suppose when I say like, I mean just those. And I presume, since they are what the company was founded on, lots of people want more games like that from them. Alyx is fine, but it's a game built for an expensive VR rig and so out of reach of most people.
Other than that, they've not released anything like that since portal 2 in 2011.