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cakefoo

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,415
I think the big news here is that Sony is going to enjoy at least 2 to 3 more years of complete dominance in consumer VR, while Oculus is poised to own the entirety of consumer PCVR.
PSVR does have the largest concentrated share, but it isn't really dominating. It's selling just slightly better than PCVR. They could play the exclusives card in an attempt to maintain the lead, but I think the technological advancements in the 3 upcoming headsets are going to have a bigger impact on the consumer market. Despite that, there's no threat to PSVR- all the VR solutions can co-exist, and everyone can be happy.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,950
With a low-persistence display, the frame rate must be synchronized to the refresh rate. If it is not in sync with the refresh rate you get bad stuttering and multiple images displayed.
60 FPS on a 120Hz low-persistence display will show double-images as anything moves across the screen. The source must be 120 FPS.

Yeah, I know it has to be synced. Pobably could have said so in my post, but sometimes I forget that most people don't know that part. Without a doubt, I am a native first kind of guy - Dirt Rally PSVR vs Vive is very noticeable to me.

That said - double, triple, quadruple, more etc imaging is ok by me. I've seen it on my desktop for years at this point as a Lightboost user and in the PSVR (most games are 60fps/120hz) all the time. PSVR developers have done a great job hitting that target spec. It's not the ideal solution, but its not mega detrimental at all. Even when I notice framedrops in both desktop and psvr scenarios, the experience is not totally destroyed for me.

I imagine Index doing 120hz/60fps or 144hz/72fps will be popular configurations for lower end GTX 970 rigs. 144hz->24hz 6:1 movie content viewing will be a big part of the Indexs's usefulness as well.
 
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pj-

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,659
Because most people cant afford that.

Most people shouldn't afford it. The hardware isn't good enough, the games aren't good enough, and the associated hw required is also prohibitively expensive.

High end VR is a toy for the privileged enthusiast for at least the next 5 years
 

Flandy

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,445
With a low-persistence display, the frame rate must be synchronized to the refresh rate. If it is not in sync with the refresh rate you get bad stuttering and multiple images displayed.
60 FPS on a 120Hz low-persistence display will show double-images as anything moves across the screen. The source must be 120 FPS.
It's not a big issue on PSVR? Like I notice there's ghosting/double images but the only time I really notice it is if I bring the move controller up to my face and move it from left to right. If I were getting an Index I'd probably just cap my games at 60 or 72fps so they can divide into 120hz or 144hz
 

Deleted member 984

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,203
Not sure why a grand is what people think it's too high for VR? This is still basically brand new technology.

Possibly because for many it would be a punt of a grand and there are much cheeper options on the market.

Out of the VR options the base station route (Vive/Index/Pimax) is by far the more costly solution but if people are into PC gaming and understand the benefits of its iterative nature despite the higher cost they will see the longer term benefits because it's using a very similar model of advancement.
 

DarthBuzzard

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
5,122
Sure in 150 years people will be jacking into some sort of VR instead of living in the real world, but for now that is expensive to fuck around with "shitty games" that entertain for 15 minutes.

The majority of VR headsets right now collect dust. Like Rockband instruments.
And what's your experience with VR? Can't be much with that attitude. Many people I know use VR for plenty of things outside of gaming, and many people I know play a bunch of full VR games that have long lasting retention.

Regardless of what your random assumption about the state of VR is, SteamVR growth doubles every year. That's the active userbase by the way, so more people are actively using it as time goes on.
 

TaySan

SayTan
Member
Dec 10, 2018
31,683
Tulsa, Oklahoma
The Vive was almost that much. Why is this such a shocker for people? Just pick up the Oculus S if The index is too much. I owned a Vive and while I liked it. This doesn't seem a big enough upgrade for me and the Oculus S seems more appealing to me due to the tracking solution and the comfortable headset.
 

Akronis

Prophet of Regret - Lizard Daddy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,464
And what's your experience with VR? Can't be much with that attitude. Many people I know use VR for plenty of things outside of gaming, and many people I know play a bunch of full VR games that have long lasting retention.

Just ignore people like that, it's not worth arguing.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
I was not expecting that price. Looks like it'll be awhile for the mainstream to get the good stuff unless Sony/MS come through on their consoles nextgen.

In for the headset. MAYBE the controllers? I sort of feel like I need to see $280 in value because I've been pretty happy with my Vive controllers.
 

MrBob

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,671
The Vive was almost that much. Why is this such a shocker for people? Just pick up the Oculus S if The index is too much. I owned a Vive and while I liked it. This doesn't seem a big enough upgrade for me and the Oculus S seems more appealing to me due to the tracking solution and the comfortable headset.

Yeah I think the Rift S hits a lot of good notes that will be good for a lot of people. I thought about swapping out my Vive for one so I can get those touch controllers but there are a couple issues with the Rift S that don't work for me (which may not be issues for others). The audio solution for the Rift S doesn't look that good, and not a fan of dropping the hz cap from 90hz to 80hz (not to mention I'm not really a fan of LCD screens, which is also an issue for the index for me).

If Oculus offered a Rift S Pro for 100 dollars more including an OLED screen and better audio solution I'd be interested in it.
 

Terandle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
391
This price might be justified if it was wireless, but there is no way I am buying another VR headset that still has a wire
 

Shadow

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,166
I knew the index controllers would be more expensive than say the Joycons because duh, they got way more stuff in them, but not almost a price of a Switch (Or more expensive than a referb Switch). Guess I'll be passing on these for the time being at least until the end of the year. I still want them of course, because I don't really like the Vive wands for anything but using a gun. Trackpad sucks for stick emulation.

As for the headset, looks nice, but I'm fine with my Vive for a long while.
 
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Flandy

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,445
Yeah I think the Rift S hits a lot of good notes that will be good for a lot of people. I thought about swapping out my Vive for one so I can get those touch controllers but there are a couple issues with the Rift S that don't work for me (which may not be issues for others). The audio solution for the Rift S doesn't look that good, and not a fan of dropping the hz cap from 90hz to 80hz (not to mention I'm not really a fan of LCD screens, which is also an issue for the index for me).

If Oculus offered a Rift S Pro for 100 dollars more including an OLED screen and better audio solution I'd be interested in it.

Funny that your negatives are my positives.
  • I don't mind the decrease to 80hz since I don't believe it'll be something I notice. Plus with the increase to 1440p having to render 10 less frames will give me more breathing room to push the resolution further.
  • I'm excited to move to LCD because that means an RGB screen instead of a Pentile one.
  • Audio I'm a bit iffy on since I don't know how it'll sound but if it's good then I look forward to it because I'll be able to hear the outside world and won't be completely isolated from everything
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,950
The best part is that there's pretty much an option for everyone now. Just like PC gaming.

Low cost, but decent quality no matter what? Pick from the 5 to 10 WMR headsets out there or PSVR.
Wireless or bust? HTC Vive, Vive Pro, Quest, or Go
No extensive or intrusive setup? Quest or Rift S, maybe Go
Best All rounder? Probably Rift S.
Top quality OLED Screens? Odyssey Plus, Vive Pro, Pimax 5k BE/XR. The PSVR ain't so bad either.
Top quality LCD? HP reverb (resolution), Index (refresh rate). Rift S has gotten some praise as well despite its screens noticeable shortcomings
Best Lenses? Rift S, Quest, Go (so far)
Bigger FOV? Pick a Pimax, or settle for an Index.

Sure, there is no perfect headset and that stinks. Having a bunch of headsets lying around isn't ideal. Just like there's isn't (nor has there ever been) a perfect TV. Oh well.

A cool thing is that the used hardware market for OG Vives and Rifts will open up soon. $300 or less complete in box Vive sets are probably on the table. It's not a bad option, its how I got my Vive equipment initially. The Vive is a good piece of kit with a perfectly serviceable (but flawed in build quality) set of controllers. The 1.0 base stations will still work great.
 

TaySan

SayTan
Member
Dec 10, 2018
31,683
Tulsa, Oklahoma
Yeah I think the Rift S hits a lot of good notes that will be good for a lot of people. I thought about swapping out my Vive for one so I can get those touch controllers but there are a couple issues with the Rift S that don't work for me (which may not be issues for others). The audio solution for the Rift S doesn't look that good, and not a fan of dropping the hz cap from 90hz to 80hz (not to mention I'm not really a fan of LCD screens, which is also an issue for the index for me).

If Oculus offered a Rift S Pro for 100 dollars more including an OLED screen and better audio solution I'd be interested in it.
Funny that your negatives are my positives.
  • I don't mind the decrease to 80hz since I don't believe it'll be something I notice. Plus with the increase to 1440p having to render 10 less frames will give me more breathing room to push the resolution further.
  • I'm excited to move to LCD because that means an RGB screen instead of a Pentile one.
  • Audio I'm a bit iffy on since I don't know how it'll sound but if it's good then I look forward to it because I'll be able to hear the outside world and won't be completely isolated from everything
The Audio at least you can use your own headphones as a solution. I have a small pair that will work just fine. :) And the other negatives sounds like things I probably wouldn't notice unless I'm looking for it.
 

Arthands

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,039
Most people shouldn't afford it. The hardware isn't good enough, the games aren't good enough, and the associated hw required is also prohibitively expensive.

High end VR is a toy for the privileged enthusiast for at least the next 5 years

They are good enough though.
You can always purchase the Oculus Rift S if you want cheaper hardware though they ain't as good as this. As the saying goes, you pay for what you got.
 

MrBob

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,671
I watched this video about the Rift S which is bugged me about the audio setup:



Audio solution in the Rift S itself seems kind of weak and the headset makes headphones a little harder to put on. Still looks pretty good overall if you can get over that.
 
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Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,109
It's not a big issue on PSVR? Like I notice there's ghosting/double images but the only time I really notice it is if I bring the move controller up to my face and move it from left to right. If I were getting an Index I'd probably just cap my games at 60 or 72fps so they can divide into 120hz or 144hz
I'm not too familiar with the PSVR, but I would assume that they're using reprojection to bring the frame rate up to match the native refresh rate of the display.
 

TaySan

SayTan
Member
Dec 10, 2018
31,683
Tulsa, Oklahoma
The best part is that there's pretty much an option for everyone now. Just like PC gaming.

Low cost, but decent quality no matter what? Pick from the 5 to 10 WMR headsets out there or PSVR.
Wireless or bust? HTC Vive, Vive Pro, Quest, or Go
No extensive or intrusive setup? Quest or Rift S, maybe Go
Best All rounder? Probably Rift S.
Top quality OLED Screens? Odyssey Plus, Vive Pro, Pimax 5k BE/XR. The PSVR ain't so bad either.
Top quality LCD? HP reverb (resolution), Index (refresh rate). Rift S has gotten some praise as well despite its screens noticeable shortcomings
Best Lenses? Rift S, Quest, Go (so far)
Bigger FOV? Pick a Pimax, or settle for an Index.

Sure, there is no perfect headset and that stinks. Having a bunch of headsets lying around isn't ideal. Just like there's isn't (nor has there ever been) a perfect TV. Oh well.

A cool thing is that the used hardware market for OG Vives and Rifts will open up soon. $300 or less complete in box Vive sets are probably on the table. It's not a bad option, its how I got my Vive equipment initially. The Vive is a good piece of kit with a perfectly serviceable (but flawed in build quality) set of controllers. The 1.0 base stations will still work great.
Yup. There is something for everyone now this is a great time for VR to grow and prosper.
 

pj-

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,659
They are good enough though.
You can always purchase the Oculus Rift S if you want cheaper hardware though they ain't as good as this. As the saying goes, you pay for what you got.

I'm going to buy an Index because I am an enthusiast, but even if a full kit cost $200 I wouldn't recommend it to most people. With my vive, setup is a hassle, getting a proper fit is a hassle, allocating the necessary space is a (basically unsolvable) hassle, getting most games to run well is hassle even on my high end pc, plus the vast majority of the 100+ (and god knows how many dollars worth of) games in my steam vr library are fun for a couple hours at most.

Index is going to improve none of those, and actually will be a regression in some ways since I have the htc wireless adapter which has been quite reliable so far.
 
Oct 25, 2017
19,289
If this has been asked a million times, I'm sorry but scanning through the thread I can't really find concrete answers.

So what makes this so much better than the other headsets? How does this stack up to the Vive?

If there's a post that explains it, I'm happy to be pointed toward it.
 

-Pyromaniac-

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,410
I'm going to buy an Index because I am an enthusiast, but even if a full kit cost $200 I wouldn't recommend it to most people. With my vive, setup is a hassle, getting a proper fit is a hassle, allocating the necessary space is a (basically unsolvable) hassle, getting most games to run well is hassle even on my high end pc, plus the vast majority of the 100+ (and god knows how many dollars worth of) games in my steam vr library are fun for a couple hours at most.

Index is going to improve none of those, and actually will be a regression in some ways since I have the htc wireless adapter which has been quite reliable so far.
You don't sound like you want this or any of them lol
 

Cipherr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,489
Not sure why a grand is what people think it's too high for VR? This is still basically brand new technology.


Different market. Its not that much. A 2080ti alone cost more than that. But consider that if someone isn't a PC gamer. And is accustomed to buying consoles for what... $500? They probably see this and definitely see it as a lot.

This is better than I expected though. Im more interested in the impressions and if VR will actually be good enough (when done at the high end like this) to convince people to care and cause a growth towards mainstream. Im still skeptical as hell, but this is their chance.
 

Komo

Info Analyst
Verified
Jan 3, 2019
7,112
Wait what the fuck? Why isnt' this available anywhere else other then in Canada. This is pretty dumb.
 

ZeroDotFlow

Member
Oct 27, 2017
928
The Vive was almost that much. Why is this such a shocker for people? Just pick up the Oculus S if The index is too much. I owned a Vive and while I liked it. This doesn't seem a big enough upgrade for me and the Oculus S seems more appealing to me due to the tracking solution and the comfortable headset.
It's a shocker for exactly what you mentioned: It's not a big enough upgrade.

It's around 1k for a spec upgrade. People were expecting some of the bigger leaps in VR technology like wireless connections or inside-out tracking because anyone that's used the Vive for more than a minute know that wires are a PITA. The Oculus Quest is a bit more appealing because it's entirely a pick up and go experience without having to deal with lengthy setup or compatibility issues that can sometimes plague SteamVR games.
 

Deleted member 984

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,203
I'm going to buy an Index because I am an enthusiast, but even if a full kit cost $200 I wouldn't recommend it to most people. With my vive, setup is a hassle, getting a proper fit is a hassle, allocating the necessary space is a (basically unsolvable) hassle, getting most games to run well is hassle even on my high end pc, plus the vast majority of the 100+ (and god knows how many dollars worth of) games in my steam vr library are fun for a couple hours at most.

Index is going to improve none of those, and actually will be a regression in some ways since I have the htc wireless adapter which has been quite reliable so far.

Reads more like you feel obligated for some obscure reason rather than an enthusiast.
 

Deleted member 1722

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,058
If this has been asked a million times, I'm sorry but scanning through the thread I can't really find concrete answers.

So what makes this so much better than the other headsets? How does this stack up to the Vive?

If there's a post that explains it, I'm happy to be pointed toward it.
It's mostly comfort upgrades. Very much the same generation of VR. Going from a pentile OLED to a high refresh display with full RGB sub pixels is a huge awesome upgrade, but not enough to toss out a Vive for.

If you already have a Vive, the controllers at $279 is all you need. The real story here is hand tracking.

Things like more than 2 lighthouses and multiroom setups are also capable with the new trackers included in the package.
 

TaySan

SayTan
Member
Dec 10, 2018
31,683
Tulsa, Oklahoma
If this has been asked a million times, I'm sorry but scanning through the thread I can't really find concrete answers.

So what makes this so much better than the other headsets? How does this stack up to the Vive?

If there's a post that explains it, I'm happy to be pointed toward it.
More comfortable than the Vive. Ditching OLED for a higher refresh rate LED display. If you already own the Vive it's not a next generation upgrade, but the controls offer hand tracking which is really nice. The new trackers will offer improvements if you game in a large room.

It's a shocker for exactly what you mentioned: It's not a big enough upgrade.

It's around 1k for a spec upgrade. People were expecting some of the bigger leaps in VR technology like wireless connections or inside-out tracking because anyone that's used the Vive for more than a minute know that wires are a PITA. The Oculus Quest is a bit more appealing because it's entirely a pick up and go experience without having to deal with lengthy setup or compatibility issues that can sometimes plague SteamVR games.
The Oculus Quest would have been perfect if the battery life was better and you weren't tied to Facebook ecosystem. :/ The S seems like the best all around Headset right now if you haven't jumped into VR yet.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
4,659

Moebius

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,416
WARNING: Cancer and Reproductive Harm
associated with materials used in Base Station housing, power supply, and cables


So this is common?
 

I KILL PXLS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,614
I'm trying to figure out the new cable situation...I currently have a 25 foot USB and HDMI running around the wall to my junction box. Your write up says just cable now...How does that work? Could I still use it off the junction box to help the distance to the pc?
My understanding is that it uses a single display port cable. No breakout box. You could probably use an extender for that though I think that might add a little latency iirc.
 

Carbon

Deploying the stealth Cruise Missile
Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,962
WARNING: Cancer and Reproductive Harm
associated with materials used in Base Station housing, power supply, and cables


So this is common?
Google "California Prop 65"

According to California, EVERYTHING causes cancer, and they just want you to know about it. Also don't eat the cables.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,659
My understanding is that it uses a single display port cable. No breakout box. You could probably use an extender for that though I think that might add a little latency iirc.
seems like it uses USB + displayport? this seems troublesome for integrating into my setup...the junction box acts as a separate starting point I can put wherever I want, being tethered to the PC itself is basically impossible. Id need something like 50 foot cables minimum, and some anchor point where I currently have the junction box
 

DiscoShark

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
479
Had a feeling the thing would be on the pricier end but that's more than a little over what I'm comfortable spending. My gaming PC was about what they're charging for this thing. I was genuinely considering it before reading this line from the Ars Technica preview:

But I'd like to see more controller-specific content before I wholeheartedly endorse that $279 standalone price, especially when it's only $20 less than an entire Nintendo Switch.

That really put everything in perspective for me.

Will wait for the Steam sale.
 

Carbon

Deploying the stealth Cruise Missile
Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,962
Only available in US? And won't work with my games bought on the Oculus Store?
You can use ReVive to play all of your Oculus games on Vive hardware. Might be a tiny bit of wonkiness with the occasional control scheme conversion, but I've never really found it to be a problem.
 

pj-

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,659
You don't sound like you want this or any of them lol

Reads more like you feel obligated for some obscure reason rather than an enthusiast.

I guess it could come across that way if most of the gaming opinions you read are from resetera, where hyperbole is the norm.

I am a realist. I think VR is the future, but I do not believe the tech and content are worth the cost and hassle for most people at the moment. I think it would be a mistake to give VR products a mainstream price now when the technology and game design language are still so immature.
 

Wollan

Mostly Positive
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,821
Norway but living in France
Tested hands-on more reserved about Index controllers than expected but mostly due to lack of software support and having a touch-stripe thumb input instead of physical button (not really a problem as I see it as it already has a thumb stick and two physical thumb buttons, the stripe is just an extra). Overall they defined the system as a very solid 'VR 1.5' still lacking eye-tracking and being tethered with a complex setup. It is what the Vive Pro should have been.
 
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Carbon

Deploying the stealth Cruise Missile
Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,962
I was originally down on the floating earphones/speakers, but thinking about it further, it's probably an inspired choice. One less thing you have to maintain, especially in an environment with multiple HMD users or strenuous workout use (like Beat Saber). Not great if you're trying to avoid bothering others nearby, but probably an acceptable tradeoff for one(two) less skin contact point.
 
Oct 31, 2017
2,304
I built a PC two years ago with VR in mind and never jumped on it. I was waiting to see what Valve's "Big Three" titles are since they were mentioned some time ago. Although... recently I've been reading about BotW first person in CEMU and how they added VR support and I'm thinking I want to dive in this year. $999 doesn't seem like a bad price for me with my personal finances and I've been wanting to get some fun new hardware this year.
 

nomis

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,013
why do so many people buy into the BS "race to the bottom" mindset? like if you want VR and to only pay a couple hundred bucks, i have an Oculus GO and it's great for what it is, but the innovation at that price point has kind of tapped out
 

Flandy

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,445
WARNING: Cancer and Reproductive Harm
associated with materials used in Base Station housing, power supply, and cables


So this is common?
This basically. It's hard not to find something labeled with that.
Everytime I go through a McDonalds drive thru theres a sign warning about cancer in the food. Probably at other fast food places too but McDonalds is the only one I remember right now. So yeah everything in California causes cancer