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Valve Index Available June 28 ($499.99 VR Headset Only, $749.99 Headset + Controllers, $999.99 Headset + Controllers + Base Stations)
- Thread starter Schierke Mori
- Start date
Numbers aside, the price isn't the best. At least its not Vive Pro or RTX 2080 Ti bad. It's what the Vive Pro should've been priced at originally, with the lens and controller improvements that the Vive line of devices really needed.
I'm a little let down by no eye tracking+foveated rendering, but 120hz/144hz makes up for that AND the lower than expected resolution. This is exactly where we need to be heading. I hope this is a wakeup call to other higher end headset makers to stop lowering the damn bar on refresh rate! Rift S looks like a joke when compared in this regard, especially since Index can also do 80hz-90hz under similar (minimum) system requirements.
I'm a little let down by no eye tracking+foveated rendering, but 120hz/144hz makes up for that AND the lower than expected resolution. This is exactly where we need to be heading. I hope this is a wakeup call to other higher end headset makers to stop lowering the damn bar on refresh rate! Rift S looks like a joke when compared in this regard, especially since Index can also do 80hz-90hz under similar (minimum) system requirements.
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That was your mistake. Valve clearly was saying this would be for the higher end. There's no need for them on the lower end, we already have Samsung, Lenovo, Oculus and plenty of other options there. This is designed to fill that spot for someone who wants a better, more serious experience as an upgrade from the original Vive era high end launch.
Damn at those controller and base station prices. Figured the controller would be expensive but not $280. I thought $150 maybe $200 max. I wouldn't need new base stations at least. Headset alone at $500 makes sense to me given the specs at least.
Never expected the whole package to be cheap but I thought maybe $800 at launch for the bundle like the vive.
I probably won't get the controllers anytime soon with that price but maybe when they are cheaper or when some stuff is really taking advantage of it I will.
Never expected the whole package to be cheap but I thought maybe $800 at launch for the bundle like the vive.
I probably won't get the controllers anytime soon with that price but maybe when they are cheaper or when some stuff is really taking advantage of it I will.
nope, the controllers sinc with lighthouse base stations AND lighthouse compatible headsets (Vive, Vive Pro, Pixmax, index and some others I dont know the name of off the top of my head). plus Steam VR doesn't support two tracking solutions at the same time
And yet here you are saying that if it has a hole it should have a function now. As far as my personal choice goes, its whether the features and peripherals it has now are good enough and future proofed enough, for me it is. And I have no interests in buying tertiary peripherals when I get new hardware of this nature (for which I count wireless solutions so far).
The current sales pitch is this slot is there for makers to mess with it as they see fit. Whether they have something else planned down the line, who knows; I'd hope so, but that isn't enough to justify a purchasing decision. I however am keen to have that option, as I am confident third parties will have uses for it. I know that I will at least use it for some experimental R&D in our labs.
As far as pure rumour mongering goes, I think it is amusing that the covering is similar to that of lighthouse, making me assume a laser based product with slot in at some future point
The index is far cheaper than the Vive pro and is allround a better headset
I'm not doing drive bys. Heck I want it bad. Can't afford it. But I hope it's amazing for everyone who can afford it and that Valve has some awesome original content.
They are updated versions (larger FOV and longer range so you can have a 400% larger player space), you can still use the index with the old lighthouse stations as far as I know (they are not that much cheaper than the index base stations off the HTC website)
It's clearly an enthusiast grade product. I'm a little dissapointed, seeing how big this is for VR, they aren't taking less profit. But, there's a lot of other significantly cheaper options on PC. Samsung Oddyssey, Oculus Rif and Rift S. Are all sub $400 kits. That are a huge improvement over something like PSVR.
They're version 2 of the original lighthouses. Clearer info here: https://www.valvesoftware.com/en/index/base-stations
Has anyone actually had eye strain issues with the Vive? It's not a complaint I've ever heard, and it's never been an issue for me.
I do have significant comfort problems with my Vive, but it has nothing to do with the screens. Speaking of, any word on ergonomics?
Yeah that's what I'm feeling. It's like an awesome ride comes out and you're too short to ride.
Correct, V1 are forwards compatible, V2 are not backwards compatible. Unless you have a massive space, I don't see V1 being an issue though, I've never had even the slightest problem unless I walked out of the lighthouses arcs at all. And that means I was doing it intentionally as it covers nearly the entire room.
Yes: 11:34
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SI_3jlAV9M
These are the 2.0 base stations, as opposed to the 1.0 base stations with the Vive.
Improved, and the headset is compatible with the Vive base stations.
Thanks. I have a regular Vive... may consider this headset. This is an expensive hobby...
Yea, It might be the best bet to buy a used Vive for now, get the knuckles later. You can probably get a Vive setup for like $200-300 from the right people.
Pretty much what I was expecting - get used to the PC market being built for whales. It'll be platforms like Quest that are the real future. :/
I'm definitely leaning towards getting a headset+knuckles when 3rd party prescription lenses have been made available. I have 2 big concerns though.
One being how Index and the Vive will play together on the same system (not on at the same time, of course). I'm going to keep my Vive wireless setup, so I hope there's no conflict with headset config settings.
Two being my 4770k/DDR3 setup. No ~20% wireless adapter overhead to deal with will be nice, but 120hz/144hz is just manageable on my desktop. VR could be tougher. Will definitely be looking for in depth technical impressions post launch.
One being how Index and the Vive will play together on the same system (not on at the same time, of course). I'm going to keep my Vive wireless setup, so I hope there's no conflict with headset config settings.
Two being my 4770k/DDR3 setup. No ~20% wireless adapter overhead to deal with will be nice, but 120hz/144hz is just manageable on my desktop. VR could be tougher. Will definitely be looking for in depth technical impressions post launch.
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019...-of-vrs-first-generation-but-is-it-worth-999/
Finally got around to reading it. That's a good article. Feel better about the actual HMD. Might pick up the HMD later this year. Although until compelling software is actually shown for Knuckles, I've become pretty apathetic about them at this price.
Valve's event began with a presentation that kept coming back to "three pillars." If VR is going to reach mass-market penetration, Valve said, the hardware landscape has to cross three specific thresholds simultaneously: affordability, low friction, and high performance.
Definitely a bizarre sales pitch on Valve's part. Why indeed. Fail horribly at two of the three pillars and that's your pitch?
Finally got around to reading it. That's a good article. Feel better about the actual HMD. Might pick up the HMD later this year. Although until compelling software is actually shown for Knuckles, I've become pretty apathetic about them at this price.
Valve's event began with a presentation that kept coming back to "three pillars." If VR is going to reach mass-market penetration, Valve said, the hardware landscape has to cross three specific thresholds simultaneously: affordability, low friction, and high performance.
Definitely a bizarre sales pitch on Valve's part. Why indeed. Fail horribly at two of the three pillars and that's your pitch?
Its hard to say what the best approach is for someone with the OG set. Chances are your base stations are good enough and will work with Index no problem. Headset has a ton of advantages and leaps ahead of what you have, both in spec and experience... but in terms of gameplay, I don't think you would be limited much by the headset. The controllers are the bigger deal, and I don't think that will become evident till a developer with a massive knowledge on them makes a big game - ie Valve's upcoming flagship title. Already from a mechanical standpoint, Boneworks looks amazing, so hopes are high for Valve if they can meet the challenge
because they did not specifically talk abut index. its about the "mass market adaptation". their goal is not that with the index. Valve is laying out a lot of groundwork with the index and their VR technologies and software to make those happen.
It doesn't bother me either. The Vive does a great job, but its not perfect - I can see the limits of the 90hz strobbing from outside the headset at a distance (I use a 120hz-480hz scanning display every day). People can have problems for any number of reasons. 120hz/144hz low persistence will help to alleviate the problem in the same way that 85hz-90hz+ CRTs were a big improvement over 60hz CRTs.
The lower hz the backlight strobes, the harder it is on your eyes, consciously or unconsciously. Higher is always better, and we should be running higher that we already are for VR. 240hz, 480hz, 960hz - that high. The fps doesn't have be that high though (would be ideal).
Because refresh rates, resolution, and DP/HDMI cable specs/chips are a balancing act, we're not quite there. The higher the refresh rate, the higher the power requirement, the higher the instability of the panels, the higher heat output, etc. That also doesn't count other stuff like HDR brightness requirements, which would complicate things substantially.
Its one part of several for eye relief - eyetracked varifocial displays are other (maybe bigger) necessary parts of the equation, so high hertz/low persistence isn't the be all end all.
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I'm curious as to why this project wasn't just quietly scrapped since they could not reach a reasonable price point.
I think the big news here is that Sony is going to enjoy at least 2 to 3 more years of complete dominance in consumer VR, while Oculus is poised to own the entirety of consumer PCVR.
I think the big news here is that Sony is going to enjoy at least 2 to 3 more years of complete dominance in consumer VR, while Oculus is poised to own the entirety of consumer PCVR.
Not really eye strain, but the frustration I have had is that with Vive Pre and Vive Pro, their is a specific sweet spot when looking forward where the image is about as clear as each can get. Moving my eyes to look slightly outside that results in additional blur, that give me some issues after a couple of hours. Over time, I started to instead look relatively straight ahead the whole time, and move my head and body to look around.
With Index, it seems like you will be much better able to actually use your eyes to look around within the restrictions of the fov without blurring / artefacts etc. I think for me personally that might be a major thing for comfort and longer play sessions, as it might reduce some fatigue.
Paging Dr. Durante
So keeping Pimax, or selling pimax for this new headset?
Pimax vs Index
Pros
Higher FOV
Massive Sweet Spot
Higher resolution
Single Cable Display Port
Works with Gen 1 and 2 Lighthouses
Cons
Third Party
lower Refresh Rate
higher persistence
Probably won't be wireless capable anytime soon
Edit: I'll probably keep it in the interim at the very least, can always sell it later, but what do you guys think (For those of you with Pimax) will be your new main HMD?
So keeping Pimax, or selling pimax for this new headset?
Pimax vs Index
Pros
Higher FOV
Massive Sweet Spot
Higher resolution
Single Cable Display Port
Works with Gen 1 and 2 Lighthouses
Cons
Third Party
lower Refresh Rate
higher persistence
Probably won't be wireless capable anytime soon
Edit: I'll probably keep it in the interim at the very least, can always sell it later, but what do you guys think (For those of you with Pimax) will be your new main HMD?
Reaching a reasonable price point was never their goal. Their goal was making the best headset they can make.
They said even a few years ago that VR has to be as good as it can be, before it becomes a cheap mainstream product.
Personally I'd have a hard time giving up the Pimax FOV. I've used an Oculus Go since I got my Pimax, and it's like looking through a porthole. This would be better than Go of course, but still... losing 70 degrees of FOV doesn't seem worth it.
I do want the Index controllers, specifically for playing Oculus games, I think that's the perfect addition to the Pimax until they get their own controllers out.
They're aiming at the same enthusiast market that's used to paying well over a thousand bucks for gfx cards and gaming monitors. There are cheaper alternatives, Valve is trying to hit the highest-end of the range with the best possible specs and performance. Priced at a grand, all-inclusive, is actually not bad when the 2080ti dropped at 2k, and there are lots of 4k high-end monitors well over 2k. There are plenty of gamers that will buy this. And I don't think this is a situation where Valve will need to sell a million units or else they'll go under. This is probably meant to be a fairly niche device.
I wasn't expecting them to fight for the 400$ market bracket, but going above the 800$ means this thing has literally no future to speak of.
"Literally no future", eh? Tell us more about the future. What else do your fortune-telling powers predict? Why don't you don't think there's a market for high-end VR?
Looking in from the outside as an average "used VR before, don't own one" customer that doesn't massively follow VR news, the Ars article just makes it sound like slightly bigger numbers on a stat sheet (and new controllers), a high end headset for this year but one that doesn't seem to be saying "hey, you know this reason you struggle with VR? We have a solution". If I were to buy one I'd still be more interested in a Pimax 8k because the feeling of looking through binoculars would be solved by that big FOV.
I'm still unsure if I'll get the Index HMD. If it used (RGB) OLED panels (or was cheaper) I'd be a lot more interested.
As is, I'll probably go with a Pimax HMD + Valve Index Controllers + HTC base stations setup -- which, if nothing else, is a very modular "PC" approach ;)
I don't think that, realistically, you'd be losing 70° of FoV.
The Pimax at "normal" setting (I don't consider "large" all that usable, personally) renders a 140° horizontal FoV. With this promising "20° more" than existing HMDs (which render between ~90° (Rift CV1) and ~108° (Vive, but only visible with aftermarket thin foam), you're probably looking at ~115° horizontal for the Index.
We'll know for sure once people get theirs and look at the numbers.
Sure in 150 years people will be jacking into some sort of VR instead of living in the real world, but for now that is expensive to fuck around with "shitty games" that entertain for 15 minutes.
The majority of VR headsets right now collect dust. Like Rockband instruments.
The majority of VR headsets right now collect dust. Like Rockband instruments.
User banned (5 days): Inflammatory drive-by posting, history of similar behavior.
That's a rough price, I guess it's their last hurrah until the Epic store takes over. It'll sell as well as steam link and the controller.
On their website, it's listed as "this headset provides 20° more FOV than the HTC Vive for typical users" so it should be closer to 130.
Even if they could work with any headset, the problem is that they won't work without base stations.
So the controller cost is not really $280 unless you already have a headset which uses v1 lighthouse tracking - it's $430, or $580 if you want roomscale support.
It's frustrating because lighthouse tracking is clearly the best solution right now, but the cost makes this prohibitively expensive for anyone but hardcore enthusiasts.
VR is in such a weird place right now, where there is no obvious "winner" and each of the devices out there has their own major flaws, with lots of demos of upcoming technology that claims to solve most of them.
Once eye tracking is ready, I think we will see the next big leap in headsets. Eye tracking with foveated rendering enables the use of higher resolution display panels, since you only render 1x1 pixels on a tiny fraction of the display, and it also significantly reduces the bandwidth requirements for a wireless system.
If the Oculus Quest had DisplayLink, or if they are able to update it to support DisplayLink, that would make it a clear winner over anything else right now unless you are prepared to pay significantly more for a high-end headset like the Index.
As it is now, I'm left thinking that I'll probably wait out VR for another generation of headsets.
With a low-persistence display, the frame rate must be synchronized to the refresh rate. If it is not in sync with the refresh rate you get bad stuttering and multiple images displayed.
60 FPS on a 120Hz low-persistence display will show double-images as anything moves across the screen. The source must be 120 FPS.
Valve should release Half-Life 3 with it, then it would sell even at 1K.
Controllers seem to be real nice though.
Controllers seem to be real nice though.
I'm waiting to hear about the sweet spot and lenses, the Pimax is great in this regard. I don't want to give that up, but the high framerate and low persistence, in the Vive Ecosystem which means it's less prone to future software issues/incompatibilities. As far as the FOV, like you said 140 degrees is what we generally can actually use. So it's fairly comparable right?