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Patapuf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,407
Do you realize there wasn't a choice in 1939 - it's either Nazi Germany or USSR. If not soviets, those lands would be invaded by Hitler anyway.
And again, I'm talking from another perspective. You ignored detention camps in Poland too, so for Belarusians and Ukrainians it wasn't matter who - Poles, Russian, Germans - all were the same. Polonization, russification, germanizations...

Finland has the same story basically. First Sweden, then Russia, now they finally independent (as they should).

To pretend the USSR "saved" the poor ukarnians and belarussians is ridicoulous. You write it yourself, it was trading one colonial power for the other. The russians didn't give a fuck about ukranians, they literally let them starve to death.

The reason the USSR invaded poland was not to save minorities from Nazis, they wanted to expand their borders. Toghether with Nazis. They even signed a treaty for it.
 
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Danteyke223

Banned
Oct 24, 2018
937
Russia needs to shut the fuck up. They ruined half of Europe for 50 years, wrecking economies in its wake and oppressing large swatshes of the population. Everytime someone tried to gain independence they got curb stomped while the west just watched idly claiming it is against Communism.US and UK shouldn't have stopped with Germany they should have gone and liberated all of Europe and nuked Moscow....
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,089
I just also remembered the double hilarity of this since both Ukraine and Belorussia attempted to achieve independence during the collapse of the Russian Empire and were both annexed into the USSR, so even this "rescuing Soviet minorities / restoring territory stolen by the Poles" schtick only functions if you assume that Ukrainain and Belorussian independence was invalid and they were rightful Soviet territory to begin with.
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,089
It's scary how people are suddenly trying to rewrite history.

It's not actually sudden, it's just suddenly getting exposure to a larger audience. These are long term narratives that have been around since it happened - this is what was being taught in schools in Eastern Europe under Soviet rule from more or less the moment the war ended. Many of the events of WWII have been obscured or recontextualised to suit one narrative or another. Not just the USSR/Russia either, every country has warped or distorted views to some degree or another.
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,089
Am I stroking out, or are they saying it wasn't an invasion because Germany did it first?

That's horrible.

The official line at the time was that the Polish government ceased to exist after the invasion, which is why they're talking about the Germans doing it first. The second part is that they claim it wasn't "True" Polish territory because according to them it should have belonged to the USSR.
 

Vas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,016
Why are Russians apologizing for Soviet crimes? Just disavow them and focus on all the new exciting crimes and invasions you're doing instead of the old ones from the old government.
 

famikon

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,604
ベラルーシ
To pretend the USSR "saved" the poor ukarnians and blearussians is ridicoulous. You write it yourself, it was trading one colonial power for the other. The russians didn't give a fuck about ukranians, they literally let them starve to death.

The reason the USSR invaded poland was not to save minorities from Nazis, they wanted to expand their borders. Toghether with Nazis. They even signed a treaty for it.
I didn't say that. Yes, it was land grab by USSR.

But excluding from the discussion Belarusians and Ukrainians is wrong too. Both - Poland and USSR did harm to them. And after that - Nazi Germany as well (Belarus lost 25.3% of its population during WWII, Ukraine - 16.3%). My points is - first half of XX century was a real tragedy for these two nations, and nobody mention that. It always about only Poles and Russians, despite the fact there are other nations between them.
 

KillerMan91

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,354
Russia needs to shut the fuck up. They ruined half of Europe for 50 years, wrecking economies in its wake and oppressing large swatshes of the population. Everytime someone tried to gain independence they got curb stomped while the west just watched idly claiming it is against Communism.US and UK shouldn't have stopped with Germany they should have gone and liberated all of Europe and nuked Moscow....

That would had been pretty hard considering how Soviets had massively more men at the eastern front than western allies at the end of the war.
Allied_army_positions_on_10_May_1945.png


Soviet union had the biggest, best equipped and most experienced land army at the of WWII (As Eastern Front was much bigger front than western front).
 

famikon

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,604
ベラルーシ
I just also remembered the double hilarity of this since both Ukraine and Belorussia attempted to achieve independence during the collapse of the Russian Empire and were both annexed into the USSR, so even this "rescuing Soviet minorities / restoring territory stolen by the Poles" schtick only functions if you assume that Ukrainain and Belorussian independence was invalid and they were rightful Soviet territory to begin with.
Well, Poland didn't help with this too. The didn't provide any autonomy to Belarusians for example, instead Polonization happened.

In the 1920s, Belarusian partisan units arose in many areas of West Belarus, mostly unorganized but sometimes led by activists of Belarusian left wing parties. In the spring of 1922, several thousands Belarusian partisans issued a demand to the Polish government to stop the violence, to liberate political prisoners and to grant autonomy to West Belarus.

and this too
Following the intentions of the majority of the Polish society, the Polish government introduced harsh policies of polonization and assimilation of Belarusians in West Belarus. The Polish official Leopold Skulski, an advocate of polonization policies, is being quoted as saying in the Sejm in late 1930s: "I assure you that in some ten years you won't be able to find a single [ethnic] Belarusian [in West Belarus]"
 
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WhoTurgled

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,052
Russia needs to shut the fuck up. They ruined half of Europe for 50 years, wrecking economies in its wake and oppressing large swatshes of the population. Everytime someone tried to gain independence they got curb stomped while the west just watched idly claiming it is against Communism.US and UK shouldn't have stopped with Germany they should have gone and liberated all of Europe and nuked Moscow....
Absolutely insane
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,326
US and UK shouldn't have stopped with Germany they should have gone and liberated all of Europe and nuked Moscow....

Japan was still in the fight, and even in Europe V-E wasn't a calm or celebratory time. Allied command was very anxious that Stalin wasn't interested on holding his lines when Germany surrendered but that they would push to the Atlantic where they still had massive formations of Soviet troops. Partially why there was a race to the A-bomb.
 

Patapuf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,407
I didn't say that. Yes, it was land grab by USSR.

But excluding from the discussion Belarusians and Ukrainians is wrong too. Both - Poland and USSR did harm to them. And after that - Nazi Germany as well (Belarus lost 25.3% of its population during WWII, Ukraine - 16.3%). My points is - first half of XX century was a real tragedy for these two nations, and nobody mention that. It always about only Poles and Russians, despite the fact there are other nations between them.

I mean, tweets like in the OP are one of the reason the plight of eastern europeans isn't talked about as much. Russia has been actively downplaying that part of the war for decades.

It's not the only reason, but it contributes to it a lot.
 

Ebullientprism

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,529
Russia needs to shut the fuck up. They ruined half of Europe for 50 years, wrecking economies in its wake and oppressing large swatshes of the population. Everytime someone tried to gain independence they got curb stomped while the west just watched idly claiming it is against Communism.US and UK shouldn't have stopped with Germany they should have gone and liberated all of Europe and nuked Moscow....

Holy hell. Crazy tweets attracts crazy people. :D
 

TaySan

SayTan
Member
Dec 10, 2018
31,390
Tulsa, Oklahoma
Off topic, but man reading about what happened in Lithuania during the war makes me mad. So many innocent people killed for no reason, but pure hatred for others that are different from you.
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,089
Well, Poland didn't help with this too. The didn't provide any autonomy to Belarusians for example, instead Polonization happened.

Indeed, there is no simple victim narrative for Poland over this period. It is the case however that they claimed it to be Soviet land only by virtue of their own subjucation of those nations. The dissolution of the Russian Empire saw Poland trying to expand Eastwards at the expense of (mainly) Belarus while the Soviets attempted to reconquer everything they could of the Tsarist lands. Their designs on the Batlic states, Poland, Romania and Finland ("Finnish Democratic Republic" is a trip) were really just attempts to re-litigate the independence movements they failed to squash in 1919-1921.
 

Patapuf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,407
It's true.
But there are other nuances too, this is why I brought another perspective to that.

"the poles were bad too" doesn't really help the ukranians and belarussians in a case where Russia yet again pretends it wasn't a brutal coloniser.

Not to ignore the fact that yes, the poles did bad shit too.
 
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The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,958
The USSR had been occupying Poland since the Polish-Soviet War in ~1918. It was one of the very first things the Bolsheviks did.
 

Rad Bandolar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,036
SoCal
The staying power of Soviet propaganda is pretty impressive, but it's pretty standard geopolitical stuff. Aggressors are always liberators and the occupied are always poor victims. On some occasions, this is actually true.

In the Russians' case, there's that pesky treaty they signed with the Nazis to carve-up Eastern Europe among themselves. I wish I could've been a fly on the wall to see their faces when the Nazis crawfished them and came rolling along the plains toward Moscow.
 

KillerMan91

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,354
Yeah, the UDSSR totally wasn't a invador that subjucated half of eastern europe against it's will while making a pact with hitler that he could have the other half. The poor sods just wanted to protect themselves.

I mean Molotov Rippentrop pact was written because both Nazi Germany and Soviet Union knew that the war was coming between the countries (you only need to read like few pages from Mein Kampf to realize this). Nazis wanted to get as close to Soviet borders (and get raw materials) as possible and Soviets wanted as many buffer states (and time to rebuild their army) as possible to withstand the invasion. Without the pact it would had been Germany that had invaded rest of the Poland, Baltic states and Finland (from Norway) and then when Operation Barbarossa began they would had been even closer to Soviet heartland and considering how close they got to the Moscow even now you can see why Soviets wanted buffer states. I mean obviously these were still invasions of neutral countries and Soviets committed huge atrocities but you can see that there was solid geopolitical motive for Soviets. And I say this as a finn. It's completely different matter though how Soviet Union and now Russia try to paint these invasions as protecting others and as voluntarily annexations but that is different matter.
 

Deleted member 15440

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,191
Why is it that tankies now a days are often younger generation. Like millennials?
because socialism is getting popular again and they'll start hearing a lot of counter arguments along the lines of "what about venezuela/the USSR" and the instinctive reaction of some people is "well those things are actually good fuck you".

and i mean there's some things to defend about the USSR. it's pretty notable that the years since the collapse of the soviet union and the "modernization" of the russian economy have seen a huge drop in the life expectancy of the average russian.

but there's obviously plenty the soviets did that should never be defended (pogroms, gulags, the holodomor, various invasions and occupations, the list goes on).
 

famikon

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,604
ベラルーシ
I mean Molotov Rippentrop pact was written because both Nazi Germany and Soviet Union knew that the war was coming between the countries (you only need to read like few pages from Mein Kampf to realize this). Nazis wanted to get as close to Soviet borders (and get raw materials) as possible and Soviets wanted as many buffer states (and time to rebuild their army) as possible to withstand the invasion. Without the pact it would had been Germany that had invaded rest of the Poland, Baltic states and Finland (from Norway) and then when Operation Barbarossa began they would had been even closer to Soviet heartland and considering how close they got to the Moscow even now you can see why Soviets wanted buffer states. I mean obviously these were still invasions of neutral countries and Soviets committed huge atrocities but you can see that there was solid geopolitical motive for Soviets. And I say this as a finn. It's completely different matter though how Soviet Union and now Russia try to paint these invasions as protecting others and as voluntarily annexations but that is different matter.
and if that happened, output for Poles could be much worse:


The plan entailed the enslavement, forced displacement, and mass murder of the Slavic peoples (and substantial parts of the Baltic peoples, especially Lithuanians and Latgalians) in Europe along with planned destruction of their nations, whom the 'Aryan' Nazis viewed as racially inferior.

O5OIV6v.png


 

Rampage

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,134
Metro Detriot
User Banned (2 weeks): inflammatory historical revisionism over multiple posts
Why is it that tankies now a days are often younger generation. Like millennials?

Because access to non USA propaganda histories are easier to get ahold of. Lots of previous sealed war documents are now in the public domain that show that USA and western countries were not the GOD sent saviors of the world they have painted themselves to be.

Let be clear- Russia did alot of terrible things- there is no excusing their invasions, gulags, and massacres.

But Russia went from pre WWI when it was an economic partner to Britain and the USA (helping with west imperialist holdings), to suffering civil war during WWI. People ignore that Britain sent troops into Russia to help the losers.

Stalin did reach out to West prior to joining the Nazis- but were ignored and rebuffed. The joining with Hitler was to give Russia time to rebuild it military to defend themselves. Russia had no western allies- Churchhill was happy to let them fight. People who paint Russia joining the Nazis as evil completely ignore that Britain and the USA were fine with letting Russia get beat by Hitler.

Again, I don't condone what Russia did during that time, but it did not have to happen if the west would have stood with their one time allies instead of letting them face Hitler alone. Even after they joined the Allies, and Lend Lease, the deals were always tailored to benefit Britain troops over Russian troops. Stalin's mass mobilization of the Russian war machine (with the aid of USA money) was what dealt the crippling blow to to Germany- the Eastern front decimated the Nazi army though sheer brute force.

After the European part of the war ended, The USA already started to change the deals it made with Russia. Again, the Russian did word the treated to give them wiggle room, but so did the USA, Britain, and France. The USA was able to lock up most of Europe into the Marshall plan, which locked USSR out of European trade block- which the war ravaged USSR desperately needed access to cash markets. It is typical Western capitalism- use resources of nations, then fuck the people there economically.

The bombing of Japan was completely unnecessary- there is plenty of evidence that Japan was willing to negotiate an end to the war, the USA ignored them. The bombing was done to send a message to Russia. WE killed all those people just to make a point. If you go back into history after WWI- the again the western nations locked Japan out of the power block, leading to Japan attacking in WWII.

The war is allot more nuanced then taught in the USA. Hitler is still terrible- but could have been avoid if the sanctions after WWI didn't drive German economy into the gutter giving him desperate population to control. The Russian Revolution needed to happen- life under the Czar system was terrible- but the west should not have interfered- setting up resentment with the new government. The USA only joined WWII for economic reasons- not because we were liberating anyone. USA denied Jewish refugees and sent them back to die. The USA win in WWII set up the USA's global dominance and reliance on wars to keep our economy running.

And Churchhill is a piece of shit. Like Stalin, he had his moment of "heroism", but allot of his action during his career supported the imperialism and colonialism system that contributed to WWI and WWII.

Look at Vietnam, Korea, the Middle East, Central and South America- look at what the USA has done to them for "freedom" and capitalism, it is really is no wonder why people look towards socialism. A good portion of western Europe has socialist systems that work along side capitalism. But here in the USA- the Red Scare and Communism still blind us to better forms of government.
 

Tuppen

Member
Nov 28, 2017
2,052
Wow this thread is something else! Extremely bizarre tweet claiming that a historical fact didn't happen turns into history lessons from the Russian troll factory. Even someone claiming to be a Finn excusing the Soviet invasion of Finland in 1939. The world really has gone crazy!
 

ThousandEyes

Banned
Sep 3, 2019
1,388
The Ukranians literally cheered and welcomed Nazi occupation in their country. That tells you how bad the soviets treated them

but the Russians were oh so nice to them
 

KillerMan91

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,354
Wow this thread is something else! Extremely bizarre tweet claiming that a historical fact didn't happen turns into history lessons from the Russian troll factory. Even someone claiming to be a Finn excusing the Soviet invasion of Finland in 1939. The world really has gone crazy!

I mean from Soviet perspective it made sense because of incoming war with Germany to secure buffer zones (finnish border was like 20 km off from Leningrad which was second biggest city of Soviet union). Of course I am glad we managed to fight them off in winter war (and last stages of continuation war) and keep our independence and democratic institutions. I also said that it's problematic how Russia still continues to whitewash the reasons for these invasions (which were to safeguard Soviet Russia against Germany on the expense of eastern europe and not liberate anyone or keep them safe like they claim).
 
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Tuppen

Member
Nov 28, 2017
2,052
I mean from Soviet perspective it made sense because of incoming war with Germany to secure buffer zones (finnish border was like 20 km off from Leningrad which was second biggest city of Soviet union). Of course I am glad we managed to fight them off in winter war (and last stages of continuation war) and keep our independence and democratic institutions. I also said that it's problematic how Russia still continues to whitewash the reasons for these invasions (which were to safeguard Soviet Russia against Germany on the expense of eastern europe and not liberate anyone or keep them safe).
If you find it problematic that Russia is whitewashing their part in the beginning of WW2, then why are you contributing to that effort? The invasions of Poland, the Baltic states and Finland weren't defensive maneuvers against Germany they were offensive power grabs by a totalitarian state that had made a deal with another dividing that part of Europe. What you're claiming is just BS. If the Soviet union wanted to strengthen the defense against Germany you can perhaps make an argument for the invasion of Poland even though nothing points to that being the reason. But trying to invade Finland instead of strengthening the defenses along the front against Germany makes zero sense from a defensive point of view. You really should stop spreading this Russian propaganda.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
One of the replies posted this

EEqGYd0WkAEu4Cm.jpeg




Also yes tankies are the worst
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Russia needs to shut the fuck up. They ruined half of Europe for 50 years, wrecking economies in its wake and oppressing large swatshes of the population. Everytime someone tried to gain independence they got curb stomped while the west just watched idly claiming it is against Communism.US and UK shouldn't have stopped with Germany they should have gone and liberated all of Europe and nuked Moscow....
They had us in the first half not gonna lie