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using him/her and (s)he to refer to someone whose gender you don't know leaves out non-binary people
- Thread starter kittens
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Of course they do. Intentionally using "he" when referring to a trans woman, for example.
Is it?
Honest question, not a native speaker.
Its origins are gendered and while I do see it usage listed as non-gendered over history, in today's world, I don't think I've often hear IRL someone call a woman "dude", and I hear guys being addressed as that all the time (I live on the west coast). There is also a feminine version of the word.
I was always taught in English classes that using they/them/their as a singular was incorrect and he or she/him or her/his or her was correct. Which was annoying because they/them/their was just easier. And I'm really not sure why we have a plural non-gender-specific pronoun and not a singular to begin with.
Also I wonder how this works in languages that tend to have a lot of gender-specific words/pronouns - as I recall in Spanish you had o for male specific and a for female specific and for multiple/plural that was non-gender-specific you'd default to the male version - I.E. Amigo, amiga, amigos.
Also I wonder how this works in languages that tend to have a lot of gender-specific words/pronouns - as I recall in Spanish you had o for male specific and a for female specific and for multiple/plural that was non-gender-specific you'd default to the male version - I.E. Amigo, amiga, amigos.
This is why context is always king. It's great imo when straight people use the term partner because its necessary for vocabulary like this to enter the mainstream.
Partner is the term I'm defaulting to when I talk about my SO indeed. For the same reason as I use "them", in order to normalize non-gendered way of talking about relationship partners.
Singular they was widely used and understood in English for centuries, then in the late 19th century some grammar nazis decided it's vulgar because reasons.
I was taught that singular they was a mistake as well, but my teachers fucking lied to me (I mean to be fair, there's a whole lot of personal benefits in following the dumb rules grammar nazis pulled out of their asses, but if you take a step back, it's all fucking bullshit).
Head out Californee way and everyone is a dude.
I call everyone dude. And I say hella even more. Shrug!
I love this story.
I'm in the camp of older folks that just finds it hard to equate 'they' with a singular person. I was reading an article the other day and as soon as it used 'they' to talk about the subject of the article ( who was a non binary teen) my brain immediately got confused.
As someone else mentioned, it's not out of malice, it's from years and years of speaking the language as it was taught to me.
Singular they - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Functionally, they does imply plurality (just as you implies singularity) in common speech. It can cause intelligibility issues, and it is not "recognized" just as Delphine states is the case in France. The discourse on the use of they is not over. There are problems. With that said, I also default to they although I wish there were a better alternative. However, I also do not get onto people when they misgender me (most times it is accidental).
Interestingly enough the identified problem with epicene they is its subject antecedent agreement issue - plurality, not gender.
"They" as a gender-unspecified singular pronoun: Eye tracking reveals a processing cost
Current Usage of the epicene pronoun in written English by Baranowski, M.
I think it is an older generational thing, but I do remember when I was younger people using they/them as an insult. Like you'd use it if you thought them of less than a person. Of course language evolves, but what Books said isn't unfounded or pigheaded.
Our genders are usually right there on our profiles, so for the most part I didn't think people were assuming much. It even comes up in the modal window when you single tap/hover our avatars.
When I am responding to someone asking something of another poster, saying "I am not sure they know what they are talking about" would cause that much confusion.
I still don't honestly understand the backlash with singular they. I swear i've been using it my whole life, if im talking about a person and i dont entirely know who they are, maybe its a hypothetical person or someone who's identity is unknown, they just comes naturally. I can't be that unusual in this. I swear people just don't even realise they say it!!!
I even remember a stupid piers morgan interview where hes being a dick about it obviously and he says some shit like "WELL NOBODY ACTUALLY USES SINGULAR THEY IN NORMAL CONVERSATION DO THEY?" and im like, are you fuckn kidding me.
Also I don't accept the argument that "dude" or "guy" is gender neutral. You don't exactly see straight men going around talking about how many dudes and guys they smooched, do you? Seems like its only gender neutral when it becomes convenient. And I say this as someone who likes being called "dude/guy/bro" and uses "man" and "dude" a lot as exclamations (not referring to people, more like interchangeable with "omg" or "wow"). But i'm gonna try and work my habits into being more inclusive and you should *definitely* respect people's wishes and make an effort to use the pronouns and even exclamations that make them comfortable.
I even remember a stupid piers morgan interview where hes being a dick about it obviously and he says some shit like "WELL NOBODY ACTUALLY USES SINGULAR THEY IN NORMAL CONVERSATION DO THEY?" and im like, are you fuckn kidding me.
Also I don't accept the argument that "dude" or "guy" is gender neutral. You don't exactly see straight men going around talking about how many dudes and guys they smooched, do you? Seems like its only gender neutral when it becomes convenient. And I say this as someone who likes being called "dude/guy/bro" and uses "man" and "dude" a lot as exclamations (not referring to people, more like interchangeable with "omg" or "wow"). But i'm gonna try and work my habits into being more inclusive and you should *definitely* respect people's wishes and make an effort to use the pronouns and even exclamations that make them comfortable.
I remember in elementary school using "they" to refer to a hypothetical/unknown person in a sentence and being corrected to use "him or her" instead.
It bugged the shit out of me because it's so wordy! Why use three words when I can just use one! I'm glad time has shown my teacher the error ofhis or her their ways.
It bugged the shit out of me because it's so wordy! Why use three words when I can just use one! I'm glad time has shown my teacher the error of
I don't think it's healthy to invent enemies out of thin air when they might just be trying to find something that's both neutral and doesn't break accepted language conventions.
"They" always conjures up connotations similar to "it" for me. It just instinctively feels "less humanizing" than gendered pronouns.
I use they unless I see a gender on their profile but I rarely have to use a he or a she in context of talking about community. It's not often I'm talking about someone else here to someone else. Having said that kindness is always right, its kinder to use they and not assume
I really love using "y'all" and "fam" as I feel both of those are gender-neutral enough to use safely on any occasion, but that also makes me question how much appropriation this might be, knowing where those terms originate from, and how legitimate it is for me to use them. I love them, but sometimes I just feel weird using them and wouldn't want people to assume my white ass is appropriating AAVE.
Never heard of this, if so, apologies for coming across as aggressive
On the forum, there are absolutely different challenges than using the language in person-to-person conversation. The case you provided is of three people which makes it very easy to understand. Also, without specifying number in the context you provide before the quote, it is very open to interpretation on the number of referred persons.
the etymology of "y'all" traces back to scottish immigrants. "Y'all" has no racial connotation down here in the South. Literally everybody here uses y'all. You outright sound weird here in Texas not using y'all.
They/Thier is always safe.
Y'all is garbage, "you" is shorter and already means exactly that (if this is somehow confusing with the singular usage rediscover the sophistication of "thou")
I maintain that "dude" and "guy" are gender neutral in modern American English (particularly the plurals). Semantic drift is a thing as much as people want to fight about that.
Y'all is garbage, "you" is shorter and already means exactly that (if this is somehow confusing with the singular usage rediscover the sophistication of "thou")
I maintain that "dude" and "guy" are gender neutral in modern American English (particularly the plurals). Semantic drift is a thing as much as people want to fight about that.
Southern California it has been gender neutral as long as I have been alive. Nobody uses dudette except TV shows aimed at hip kids in the 80s/90s.
I try to keep this sort of thing in mind.
I trip up on it a good few times with my best friend, who I grew up with knowing them as a man, and as they prepare to transition it's hard to avoid saying "dude" or "man" as an exclamation. Something of a force of habit.
Thankfully she's understanding and knows I'm not trying to do it on purpose but I still feel bad. &_&
The problem is that the rules aren't very well described and people like to assume pretty terrible things about people if they get it wrong - for example:
Dudette is never used. It's just dude. A guy is a dude. A girl is a dude. A non-binary person is a dude.
Obviously if an individual doesn't like the term don't use it to refer to them out of politeness, but as a general rule dude has no gender association in American English.
Anecdotally, among my local circle here in the SF area it's used more commonly by women than men.
Back in the 70's, 80's, and 90's, they as singular would have been taught as incorrect. It is technically the genderless singular in American English, but because that became an insult in common usage, they shifted into use as a singular term as well as a plural. Today most native speakers will recognize the difference (singular vs plural) based on context, but it could easily be confusing for a non-native speaker.
Y'all is as bad as hella. :p
We found the Jersey boy!
Same, even at work. Hell, I even call our HR consultant (cis female) a dude.
'They' and its variants just seems so unfriendly to me.
Brings up imagery of talking about someone as though they're not there.
Honestly, in a forum context (as we are) I feel that I'd be more comfortable to just use the individual's user name.
Brings up imagery of talking about someone as though they're not there.
Honestly, in a forum context (as we are) I feel that I'd be more comfortable to just use the individual's user name.
It's a limitation of the English language. I sometimes use he/she and will continue to do so as they and the like is a plural. If an individual feels it doesn't apply to them then it can be disregarded.
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