using him/her and (s)he to refer to someone whose gender you don't know leaves out non-binary people

[kittens]

I see this happen on the forum a lot and it makes me cringe every time. When you're referring to someone on here and you're trying to not assume their gender, please don't use he/she or (s)he. Lumping all people into either he or she leaves out anyone who doesn't use those pronouns, particularly non-binary people who use they/them or other non-binary pronouns. The easiest and largely accepted default is just using they/them/their when you don't know someone's gender. Like "When I first read their post I thought they were trolling, but I'm willing to give them another chance"

I know no one means any harm by it, but it gets old seeing it happen so often.

k thx, <3

edit : edited for clarity

 

[Persephone]

The singular "they" is your friend, people. "He or she" takes so many letters to type too.

 

[Anti]

I see this happen on the forum a lot and it makes me cringe every time. Please don't lump all people into either he or she, more and more of us are using they/them pronouns and it feels shitty to not be acknowledged. I know no one means any harm by it, but it gets old seeing it happen so often.

k thx, <3

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What do you want me to use in order not to offend you?

Edit: sorry just saw how in your post, cheers.

 

[collige]

Easier to type too!

 

[Deleted member 8861]

Honestly I do enjoy the functionality of using a letter and some symbols to mean two words, but I'll try to do better on this in the future. Thanks OP!

 

[xxracerxx]

I try and use 'they' if I am unsure of a poster's preference.

 

[Sidebuster]

I do this just because it never feels right to use he it her when I don't know the person. I usually use they but sometimes it doesn't feel right when say replying to one person.

 

[Unknownlight]

You should use "they" regardless because it looks nicer and sounds more natural.

 

[BriGuy]

Noted, but I'm probably not going to change my habits. No offense meant.

 

[Aranjah]

The singular "they" is your friend, people. "He or she" takes so many letters to type too.

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Yep. And it's been around since at least the 14th century so it's not even a new thing. Been around longer than the hate for it from style guides.

 

[TheCthultist]

I only bother with he/she on here if they already have it selected in on their profile. Otherwise it's always they.

 

[RedMercury]

Noted, but I'm probably not going to change my habits. No offense meant.

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I mean, it's not like it's hard, right?

 

[Mirage]

I always default to they for this reason.

 

[TheShampion]

I've actually been more careful at work and started using they all the time in emails and such.

It avoids a lot of headaches.

 

[Deleted member 2625]

Yep. And it's been around since at least the 14th century so it's not even a new thing. Been around longer than the hate for it from style guides.

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Yes. Thank you for pointing this out early in the thread.

 

[Damn Silly]

Yeah, I've not been perfect with it, but when I don't know a person's preference I try to default to they.

Helps that it's quicker. Not that it should be an excuse, but it helps to get out of the habit.

 

[Soda]

Doesn't "they" imply multiple people/a group?

 

[xxracerxx]

Doesn't "they" imply multiple people/a group?

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Singular they - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[collige]

Doesn't "they" imply multiple people/a group?

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No

 

[Delphine]

I default to they when I don't know, and speak in English. Sadly, there's no equivalent of "they" in my native language, French. It is expected to use he or she no matter what, with no middle ground whatsoever. People have recently come up with a new term, "iel" but it isn't in the dictionnary and not widely used at all. Something is missing in the language, and we're trying to fix it, but it's gonna take time for it to stick.

 

[BriGuy]

I mean, it's not like it's hard, right?

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No, but neither is letting "s/he" roll off your back. No one anywhere uses that word as an attack or way to demean somebody else. I'll use they sometimes, I'll use s/he other times. There's no ill intent behind any of it, it's just whatever pops into my head at that particular moment and no more thought goes into it. I usually avoid the issue outright by just referring to the person by their name.

 

[valuv]

I default to they when I don't know, and speak in English. Sadly, there's no equivalent of "they" in my native language, French. It is expected to use he or she no matter what, with no middle ground whatsoever. People have recently come up with a new term, "iel" but it isn't in the dictionnary and not widely used at all. Something is missing in the language, and we're trying to fix it, but it's gonna take time for it to stick.

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It kinda sucks how in french the default would probably just be il or ils right? Since ils is the default when referring to groups with mixed genders. I'm not sure, culturally, how it's treated but from my education I believe that would have been 'correct'.

 

[Kasai]

I just use "they".

Super easy to do and it takes a very, very minimally amount of mental effort.

 

[hjort]

Somewhat related question: Is it inappropriate to use 'dude' as an interjection when talking to a woman or a non-binary person? I tend to use it a lot and don't think of it as necessarily being connected to the gender identity of the person I happen to be talking to, but I'm not a native English speaker so a lot of stuff is lost on me.

 

[collige]

It kinda sucks how in french the default would probably just be il or ils right? Since ils is the default when referring to groups with mixed genders. I'm not sure, culturally, how it's treated but from my education I believe that would have been 'correct'.

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That kind of exposes the sexism inherent in the language though, so I understand why people wouldn't want to use it.

 

[Syriel]

Somewhat related question: Is it inappropriate to use 'dude' as an interjection when talking to a woman or a non-binary person? I tend to use it a lot and don't think of it as necessarily being connected to the gender identity of the person I happen to be talking to, but I'm not a native English speaker so a lot of stuff is lost on me.

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They can be used as singular or plural in English.
Dude is accepted as a generic, non-gendered term in English.

 

[valuv]

That kind of exposes the sexism inherent in the language though, so I understand why people wouldn't want to use it.

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I mean, that's exactly why I said it sucks

 

[amon37]

Somewhat related question: Is it inappropriate to use 'dude' as an interjection when talking to a woman or a non-binary person? I tend to use it a lot and don't think of it as necessarily being connected to the gender identity of the person I happen to be talking to, but I'm not a native English speaker so a lot of stuff is lost on me.

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I'll call anything 'dude'. I dont think its wrong

 

[collige]

Somewhat related question: Is it inappropriate to use 'dude' as an interjection when talking to a woman or a non-binary person? I tend to use it a lot and don't think of it as necessarily being connected to the gender identity of the person I happen to be talking to, but I'm not a native English speaker so a lot of stuff is lost on me.

Click to shrink...

I think it's regional. As someone from the east coast, I generally try not to use it referring to a transfeminine person out of caution, but I know the term is used a lot more liberally in Cali.

 

[Books]

I'm too old to change and I'm not doing it maliciously.

 

[Delphine]

It kinda sucks how in french the default would probably just be il or ils right? Since ils is the default when referring to groups with mixed genders. I'm not sure, culturally, how it's treated but from my education I believe that would have been 'correct'.

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Correct, il and ils are the default. Which a lot of French activists are contesting (rightfully so) and are pushing for the use of the more inclusive iel/iels. But those are neologisms that have not been accepted by the French Academy thus far, therefore their legitimacy can be easily contested.

 

[hjort]

They can be used as singular or plural in English.
Dude is accepted as a generic, non-gendered term in English.

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I like the sound of that! Thanks for the input!

I think it's regional. As someone from the east coast, I generally try not to use it referring to a transfeminine person out of caution, but I know the term is used a lot more liberally in Cali.

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Right. I don't tend to use it when referring to a person unless I know they identify as a...dude, but I often find myself using it as an exclamation type thing.

I'll call anything 'dude'. I dont think its wrong

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That's pretty much what I'm doing too. Or rather use it in any situation. Which probably makes me sound like someone out of a stoner flick, but I'm fine with that.

 

[jontin]

I'm too old to change and I'm not doing it maliciously.

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Sure, guy.

I'm going to start referring to everyone as the proper noun Tiger, that way no one is comfortable, including myself.

 

[lake]

Somewhat related question: Is it inappropriate to use 'dude' as an interjection when talking to a woman or a non-binary person? I tend to use it a lot and don't think of it as necessarily being connected to the gender identity of the person I happen to be talking to, but I'm not a native English speaker so a lot of stuff is lost on me.

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As a trans woman I'd really really rather you didn't.

Using it indiscriminately (or claiming you do) is totally ambiguous so it's hard to pin down what the speaker is implying something rude / or if they're not. I've talked to a few guys who say dude every sentence and it feels really bad. The ambiguity makes it feel hard to ask them to stop, though I have before.

Transphobes often use language like this on purpose very blatantly as well. "Sure... DUDE!"

Outside of the trans issues, it's also a feminism 101 example of the harmful trend of masculine terms becoming supposedly "gender-neutral," while feminine terms never do. See also "guys." It's another way women and femininity are casually de-emphasized in everyday speech. Men/maleness/masculinity are "normal," women/femaleness/femininity are "other."

Edit: Also what Delphine said.

 

[Syriel]

Right. I don't tend to use it when referring to a person unless I know they identify as a...dude, but I often find myself using it as an exclamation type thing.

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You'll find people using it both when they know or don't know someone's gender because it is generic. Men, women, non binary, etc. Anyone can use it to refer to another as it is basically a more familiar form of person. You wouldn't use it in a formal setting, but it is fine for informal use (friends, work colleagues, etc.).

 

[Delphine]

Somewhat related question: Is it inappropriate to use 'dude' as an interjection when talking to a woman or a non-binary person? I tend to use it a lot and don't think of it as necessarily being connected to the gender identity of the person I happen to be talking to, but I'm not a native English speaker so a lot of stuff is lost on me.

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Cis woman here, I don't enjoy being called dude, and will call people out on it if they do (especially if we don't know each other, I dislike people assuming I'm a man on the Internet, just because men themselves are so used to navigate digital spaces where they're the outweighing norm. This forum is an example of those digital spaces where I'll make a point about not being subtle about my gender, just to bring more visibility and reclaim a space women are seldom allowed to have in the first place).

On the other hand, I'm not sure I'm one to talk, since I can also call everybody I'm talking to on the internet "sis" regardless of me actually knowing their genders, but that's also me subtly trying to subvert the default gender to female instead of male, so I guess, I'll keep doing it. Except in cases in which I know the gender of the people I'm talking to, and in which it might come as insensitive to do so (calling a trans men "sis" isn't something I'm interested in doing for example).

 

[Boy Wander]

I'm too old to change and I'm not doing it maliciously.

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Me too. I'd apologise if I caused offense but I'd hope people wouldn't assume I was trying to. Also to people who say "this isn't difficult", if you've been using he and she for 40 years, it is pretty difficult to change, not out of malice but just out of habit.

 

[leenbzoold]

Not using any pronouns at all sounds weird sometimes, but it does the job for me.

 

[How About No]

Somewhat related question: Is it inappropriate to use 'dude' as an interjection when talking to a woman or a non-binary person? I tend to use it a lot and don't think of it as necessarily being connected to the gender identity of the person I happen to be talking to, but I'm not a native English speaker so a lot of stuff is lost on me.

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Dont unless you know they're cool with it

 

[hjort]

As a trans woman I'd really really rather you didn't.

Using it indiscriminately (or claiming you do) is totally ambiguous so it's hard to pin down what the speaker is implying / or if they're not. I've talked to a few guys who say dude every sentence and it feels really bad.

Transphobes often use language like this on purpose very blatantly as well. "Sure... DUDE!"

Outside of the trans issues, it's also a feminism 101 example of the harmful trend of masculine terms becoming supposedly "gender-neutral," while feminine terms never do. See also "guys." It's another way women and femininity are casually de-emphasized in everyday speech. Men/maleness/masculinity are "normal," women/femaleness/femininity are "other."

Click to shrink...

Cis woman here, I don't enjoy being called dude, and will call people out on it if they do (especially if we don't know each other, I dislike people assuming I'm a man on the Internet, just because men themselves are used to navigate in digital spaces where they're the outweighing norm. This forum is an example of those digital spaces where I'll make a point about not being subtle about my gender).

On the other hand, I'm not sure I'm one to talk, since I can also call everybody I'm talking to on the internet "sis" regardless of me actually knowing their genders, but that's also me subtly trying to subvert the default gender to female instead of male, so I guess, I'll keep doing it. Except in cases in which I know the gender of the people I'm talking to, and in which it might come as insensitive to do so (calling a trans men "sis" isn't something I'm interested in doing for example).

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Good points. Just to clarify (not that it affects any of your respective points), I'm not talking about addressing someone directly as 'dude' or using it as a pronoun, but rather using the word as an interjection, as in "Dude! This soup is hot!". Granted, it can still be very hard to interpret the intent behind the word in certain situations, but you know, just for the record.

The male/female dynamic in language is interesting overall. Over here in Sweden we're slowly becoming more gender neutral, but many words still have their gendered forms. In the parliament we still call the floor leader or speaker of the house or whatever the English equivalent would be "talman", which is a male form, and nurses are called "sjuksköterska", which is the female form, regardless of gender identity. Says a lot which gendered forms get to keep what word.

You'll find people using it both when they know or don't know someone's gender because it is generic. Men, women, non binary, etc. Anyone can use it to refer to another as it is basically a more familiar form of person. You wouldn't use it in a formal setting, but it is fine for informal use (friends, work colleagues, etc.).

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That's how I've been looking at it before, but with the recent couple of replies I'm starting to think I probably should dial things back a notch just to make sure I don't make anyone feel bad.

 

[giraffereyn]

Does anyone think its easier to follow these rules IRL? I find that you get most of what you need from meeting someone and any mistake can be more easily rectified. Though the people with low self-esteem or people who don't deal well with confrontation always lose out no matter if online or IRL.

 

[Books]

Seems more offensive to use a generic they instead of he/she, as if they're less worthy of a he/she identifier.

 

[How About No]

Seems more offensive to use a generic they instead of he/she, as if they're less worthy of a he/she identifier.

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.....no

Just. No

Dont use the "generic" WHEN you know how they identify

 

[collige]

I'm too old to change and I'm not doing it maliciously.

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This is a polite to say "I'm too lazy to give a fuck about your feelings"

Seems more offensive to use a generic they instead of he/she, as if they're less worthy of a he/she identifier.

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This "worthiness" concept is something you've invented. It is the pronoun for quite a few people.

 

[How About No]

This is a polite to say "I'm too lazy to give a fuck about your feelings"


This "worthiness" concept is something you've invented. It is the pronoun for quite a few people.

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Mmh. Books , I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt you're willing to change, but what you type us coming off as pigheaded bullshit,like, you're putting more effort into finding reasons to not do thing than to do thing

 

[lake]

Dont use the "generic" WHEN you know how they identify

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Reminds of something a trans friend said on fb recently:

Wow, cis people suddenly learn how to use singular 'they' when you ask them to call a trans woman 'she'

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Heh. Often noticed that phenomenon myself. Also the use of language like "an individual" or "this person." Yeah, we see you. Not as sly as you think.

 

[julia crawford]

I'm making an effort to increase my use of them.

 

[Robin]

Somewhat related question: Is it inappropriate to use 'dude' as an interjection when talking to a woman or a non-binary person? I tend to use it a lot and don't think of it as necessarily being connected to the gender identity of the person I happen to be talking to, but I'm not a native English speaker so a lot of stuff is lost on me.

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This one is kinda case sensitive for me honestly, interested to hear how other people feel. I personally have and do call other women dude, but I probably shouldn't. When someone calls me dude and I'm unsure if they're clocking me as trans or not irl it makes me anxious and overall makes me feel bad. Most of the time, probably 99% of the time it isn't malicious, but has it made me feel bad? Yeah. To me it's a small potatoes thing but if we're talking about it, that's how I feel. I try more and more to say things like "folks" and non-gendered terms of endearment, I think that's the ideal but obviously we aren't all there yet.

 

[Duane]

Sure, guy.

I'm going to start referring to everyone as the proper noun Tiger, that way no one is comfortable, including myself.

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I actually had a drill sergeant when I was in the army who didn't give a shit what anybody's name was and called everybody Billy, regardless of gender or anything else. The only time he would call somebody something different is if there was a second person involved and he would usually call them Leroy.

"Hey Billy, quit fucking around and get back to work… Grab Leroy over there and unload these boxes!"

 

[Delphine]

Seems more offensive to use a generic they instead of he/she, as if they're less worthy of a he/she identifier.

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When I talk about my SO to a third person, I often refer to him, a cis men, with the pronoun "they". He never found that offensive, and knows the reasoning behind that. Often, people I talk to don't need to know my SO's gender, it's not relevant to the conversation. It is also my own little way of normalizing the use of "they" in the general language, so that it feels safer to use to people who would otherwise feel insecure to imply their relationship might not be hetero-looking. It is also my own little way of reminding myself that I might be in a hetero-looking relationship, I'm still not an heterosexual person, but that one is more personal.


They/them is a respectful gender to use when you don't know people, don't want to assume and offend, or if you want to keep things private because that's a legitimate right everybody has.