Using "boys" to speak to everyone really needs to stop, and this is why.

[MOTHGOD]

I want every guy who has a problem with the OP's request to put themselves in the situation described in the quote above. If you would have a problem being referred to as 'ladies', then you're a hypocrite if you continue to refer to everyone as 'boys'. People shouldn't ask others to tolerate something they very well wouldn't tolerate themselves.

Click to shrink...

U rite

Growing up in a household of mostly women and also going places with a group of women as the only dude it bothers me a bit when that happens. I know most of the time the person who does it doesn't mean for it to be offensive or didn't put any thought into it. But I do legit feel a way when it happens. So yeah that makes a lot of sense and I feel a bit stupid for not thinking of it that way.

 

[BiggStankDogg]

I feel like you may have missed the point.

Imagine you got a new job at a new company. On your team are 15 people including yourself. you're male, the other 14 are female.

Now the boss, whenever she talks to the group, refers top everyone as "ladies". Always.

Now, imagine no one ever says anything about this or comments on how it's strange that you're not being included here.

Over time, do you think you might start to feel like you were excluded?

Click to shrink...

Perhaps, I assume, but I would not ask them to stop using the term "Girls" or "Ladies" or whatever the equivalent is. I'd ask politely if I was bothered that WHEN I'm present that you would refer to me by whatever pronoun I want to be addressed as.

That fact that you assigned my gender as male in this scenario because of my opinion is telling that there is also some bias on your side of the argument. And I don't mean that as a personal attack, mind you. Just food for thought in a discussion where you bring us the assumption of gender.

 

[Bhonar]

I want every guy who has a problem with the OP's request to put themselves in the situation described in the quote above. If you would have a problem being referred to as 'ladies', then you're a hypocrite if you continue to refer to everyone as 'boys'. People shouldn't ask others to tolerate something they very well wouldn't tolerate themselves.

Click to shrink...

My honest answer, but it requires you to think in context --

If "girls/ladies" was the term that has been solely used for literally hundreds of years in the country I grew up, then no I would not have a problem because that's what everyone would be used to. Right?

This question that you and someone else previously asked is not apples-to-apples if you're talking about an immediate sudden change. It requires the acknowledgment that "guys" has been used for hundreds of years in the US, and some other english-speaking countries

 

[Wishbone Ash]

All of these previously gendered group pronouns becoming ubiquitous for "everyone" are male rooted.

In a society that is male dominant, where we're trying to work toward being inclusive of all gender identities, it should be obvious why this is a problem.

Click to shrink...

I disagree. Gals, ladies, etc. has become more common, even though that also probably comes off as offensive to others (and not just in a way when presented to a group of males in an attempt to belittle them, which has perpetuated for who knows how long now)

 

[House_Of_Lightning]

I want every guy who has a problem with the OP's request to put themselves in the situation described in the quote above. If you would have a problem being referred to as 'ladies', then you're a hypocrite if you continue to refer to everyone as 'boys'. People shouldn't ask others to tolerate something they very well wouldn't tolerate themselves.

Click to shrink...

I get called "girl", "she" and "queen" by my gay friends and at no point has it ever hurt my feelings.

I've also done some consulting work for a charity organization that focuses on outreach for women. Since it is woman focused the staff is very much a majority of women. At the ground breaking ceremony they ended it with an enthusiastic hype speech that ended with "let's go get em ladies!".

Also didn't care.

 

[astro]

Perhaps, I assume, but I would not ask them to stop using the term "Girls" or "Ladies" or whatever the equivalent is. I'd ask politely if I was bothered that WHEN I'm present that you would refer to me by whatever pronoun I want to be addressed as.

Click to shrink...

You don't truly know that as you have not felt what is like to have your gender identity overlooked your entire life. Can you acknowledge that might be true?

That fact that you assigned my gender as male in this scenario because of my opinion is telling that there is also some bias on your side of the argument. And I don't mean that as a personal attack, mind you. Just food for thought in a discussion where you bring us the assumption of gender.

Click to shrink...

You have yourself listed as male in your profile. I checked before I did that.

 

[BiggStankDogg]

When it happens so much that your identity is erased in association with a specific activity or community, then it's a problem. It's one of the reasons that many women/non-binary/gender non-conforming people don't feel welcome in gaming communities. If you wanted to be a part of a community and whenever the community addresses itself, they do so by saying 'girls' or 'ladies', as a male, you probably wouldn't feel very included, would you?

Click to shrink...

What I'm saying is I was being treated friendly, and detected not mal-intent - no, I wouldn't be bothered. I've spoken with women at my job and said "Just between us ladies..." and they weren't offended nor was I at what I said.

 

[Deleted member 3897]

"Y'all" sounds super weird to me, some weird Texas word.
I use mostly either "guys" or "folks".

 

[Vexii]

I want to thank the OP for making this thread; I'm also nonbinary and feel the same way. It's really uncomfortable for me when someone uses something like "boys" to refer to a group I'm in. Using something more gender neutral really shouldn't be a big deal at all. I'm happy to see that there's some people here who understand and are standing up for people like us.

It's disappointing, but not unexpected, that there's plenty of people here who are completely unwilling to make such a minor change to their habits (and some I saw early on in the thread who were outright trolling). I guess it's difficult for them to understand what being trans is like (or more likely, they just don't care).

To end on a more positive note, you're definitely not alone in feeling like this. I hope that as more people understand us, there won't be so much stubbornness on issues like these.

Click to shrink...

So I think what we need for those of us who are cisgendered and especially male is a threadmarked list of gender-neutral terminology that women, men and nonbinary people can learn from. What I've seen a lot of (and I'm guilty of this as well) is not really knowing what exactly constitutes as comfortable or appropriate for all groups to use. Referring back to "guys", most people would accept that it's acceptable to use relatively comfortably and inclusively, but not all. A defined list that is easily accessible and demonstrable would be a fantastic way to enact change at the very least within the ERA microcosm, and hopefully ultimately beyond it as well. If the problem is male-oriented turned gender-neutral pronouns, let's highlight ones that don't have that origin.

Would anyone suitable and personally invested be up to the task of making a threadmarked list that we could use to help normalise the use of truly gender-neutral terminology, group or otherwise?

 

[TheIlliterati]

I don't mind trying to move to gender neutral terms. I have no idea how people are coming up with the idea that guys is gender neutral if boys isn't. Do these sentences make sense?
As a cis hetero male I'm looking to date hot hetero guys only.
It's Guys night at the club! Women get in for half off!
This is the Men's bathroom, the Guys bathroom is over there.

 

[brainchild]

U rite

Growing up in a household of mostly women and also going places with a group of women as the only dude it bothers me a bit when that happens. I know most of the time the person who does it doesn't mean for it to be offensive or didn't put any thought into it. But I do legit feel a way when it happens. So yeah that makes a lot of sense and I feel a bit stupid for not thinking of it that way.

Click to shrink...

We men don't really have to think about stuff like this normally; it's part of male privilege, so that's why it doesn't typically cross our minds. What's important is how we respond when we realize that our actions treat people who aren't men unfairly, and I can respect you for acknowledging that you can understand how that can be a problem.

 

[BiggStankDogg]

You don't truly know that as you have not felt what is like to have your identity overlooked your entire life. Can you acknowledge that might be true?


You have yourself listed as male in your profile. I checked before I did that.

Click to shrink...

But why check? To validate your feeling of bias? What part of my gender has any validation on my feelings? And in fact you are dismissing my own personal experience by telling me:

"You don't truly know that as you have not felt what is like to have your identity overlooked your entire life."

How could you possibly know that? Because I checked male on a box when I registered here?

Again, you're not affording me the same concessions you demand I afford you.

Granted, we might not have identical life experience, but you're painting with a broad brush while expecting people adjust to the specificity of your life experience.

 

[TemplaerDude]

I try very hard not to use gendered terms like that but it is something that slips off my keyboard occasionally. I am trying, though, and have been for a while.

 

[Datajoy]

I feel a lot of people won't even attempt to approach this with empathy and will just reply with "I'd be fine with it", when the probably wouldn't. Especially if it was, say, 15 women in the group and they were the only male.

Click to shrink...

I dunno, I think a lot of people would be fine with it. Especially if the number of women was that high. For example I work in an office with 11 women and I'm the only man, and people use ladies / gals to address us as a group all the time. Why would I have a problem with that, given the context of the situation and the group.

 

[Cynn]

not to detract from the theme of the thread but I grew up in lower Alabama and would say y'all until around 13 when I had a neighbor from Maryland moved in across the street. She repeatedly told the neighborhood kids that when you say "y'all" the rest of the country thinks you're stupid, uneducated southerners and that really messed with me. So honestly now I just say hey.

Click to shrink...

I'm from Georgia and even to me "y'all" makes people sound at best quaint and at worst, stupid.

 

[House_Of_Lightning]

is not really knowing what exactly constitutes as comfortable or appropriate for all groups to use.

Click to shrink...

And you never will. Non-cis people aren't some monolithic block who have all the same needs, conflicting ideas as to what is offensive and what isn't, and etc.

 

[astro]

But why check? To validate your feeling of bias?

Click to shrink...

I checked before I refereed to you as male... is what I meant.

So I didn't make the assumption and mis-gender you.

What part of my gender has any validation on my feelings? And in fact you are dismissing my own personal experience by telling me:

"You don't truly know that as you have not felt what is like to have your identity overlooked your entire life."

How could you possibly know that? Because I checked male on a box when I registered here?

Again, you're not affording me the same concessions you demand I afford you.

Click to shrink...

I was talking in context of gender identity. I did this earlier in the thread too, I should be more precise with my language. Just after I posted I edtied the word gender in, you must have cuaght it right before I did.

Are you telling me as a male you do understand what it's like to have your gender identity denied your entire life? Do you not understand that the context of your posts ITT kind of shows this to not be true? I don't think this part of your argument is very honest at all.

 

[Sparks]

Saying "Boys" just is hilarious sounding to me, never mean any gender by it.

"Wow there some super spicy laser boys shooting at me"
"Let's run away my baby boys!"

I love it. I'll try and be more conscious though!

 

[Mandikiri]

Never used the word "boys". I just use "guys".

 

[Prophet Five]

I'm from Georgia and even to me "y'all" makes people sound at best quaint and at worst, stupid.

Click to shrink...

While I don't use the word I think that's a terrible opinion to have.

 

[DyslexicAlucard]

It is unintuitive that something intended to be friendly could be received as harmful, but I guess I can't argue against the fact that it is harmful. I still think it is a fun way to refer to a group, but it doesn't hurt anyone if I just restrict usage to addressing groups of men.

Click to shrink...

Thanks for letting me know OP, i'll change it. Some of the phrases are ingrained into me unfortunately so it might slip up.

Click to shrink...

See, astro, just this page alone has examples of people willing to respect a small change in their vocabulary! :D

There will always be holdouts, but I think most people will eventually see there's really no practical reason not to show respect when someone voices a concern.

It is baffling to me, though, how some people act like the smallest request -- literally using different words -- is some devious attack on their freedoms. If it makes all the difference to someone negatively affected, I'd be extremely selfish/stubborn to not make such a minor linguistic adjustment.

 

[brainchild]

What I'm saying is I was being treated friendly, and detected not mal-intent - no, I wouldn't be bothered. I've spoken with women at my job and said "Just between us ladies..." and they weren't offended nor was I at what I said.

Click to shrink...

I didn't ask you if you would be bothered. I suggested that you wouldn't feel included. If someone refers to you with a gender identity that you're not, it's only logical that you would not feel that your gender identity isn't being included in the discussion.

 

[House_Of_Lightning]

Saying "Boys" just is hilarious sounding to me, never mean any gender by it.

Click to shrink...

Every time someone says "boys" I just think of that dude from Trailer Park Boys.

 

[BiggStankDogg]

I checked before I refereed to you as male... is what I meant.

So I didn't make the assumption and mis-gender you.



I was talking in context of gender identity. I did this earlier in the thread too, I should be more precise with my language. Just after I posted I edtied the word gender in, you must have cuaght it right before I did.

Are you telling me as a male you do understand what it's like to have your gender identity denied your entire life? Do you not understand that the context of your posts ITT kind of shows this to not be true? I don't think this part of your argument is very honest at all.

Click to shrink...

Again, are you assuming that I wasn't expected to be feminine and female my whole life?

 

[Giever]

"Boys" also just isn't necessarily great even for people that identify that way because it's a bit infantilizing. Most people are probably okay with it, but some might just prefer to not be called boys when they are, y'know, men, and not like 16 years old or younger.

 

[astro]

See, astro, just this page alone has examples of people willing to respect a small change in their vocabulary! :D

There will always be holdouts, but I think most people will eventually see there's really no practical reason not to show respect when someone voices a concern.

It is baffling to me, though, how some people act like the smallest request -- literally using different words -- is some devious attack on their freedoms. If it makes all the difference to someone negatively affected, I'd be extremely selfish/stubborn to not make such a minor linguistic adjustment.

Click to shrink...

I know. the thread is littered with people who have either already made this tiny concession or people willing to do so. There are also many people who fully understand, empathize, to be honest it's been a really good thread to be a part of. So thank you everyone who helped make it that way.

 

[Zornack]

We men don't really have to think about stuff like this normally; it's part of male privilege, so that's why it doesn't typically cross our minds. What's important is how we respond when we realize that our actions treat people who aren't men unfairly, and I can respect you for acknowledging that you can understand how that can be a problem.

Click to shrink...

You're ignoring the fact that guys is used gender neutrally by both men and women.

 

[Alastor3]

Oh boy... here we go.gifjimcarrey

But seriously, this is like me saying thank god when I don't even believe in god, at this point, it's just a saying

 

[astro]

Again, are you assuming that I wasn't expected to be feminine and female my whole life?

Click to shrink...

Given the content of your posts ITT?

I think it's clear this is not the case. And I think you're being very dishonest with you approach now.

Please though, if I'm wrong here tell me and I'll try to understand your position.

 

[brainchild]

I dunno, I think a lot of people would be fine with it. Especially if the number of women was that high. For example I work in an office with 11 women and I'm the only man, and people use ladies / gals to address us as a group all the time. Why would I have a problem with that, given the context of the situation and the group.

Click to shrink...

But can you really say like you feel like you, as an individual, are being addressed as if you're a part of the team? Clearly not if the identifying terms are used to indicate gender instead of something more broad.

 

[Bhonar]

I'm from Georgia and even to me "y'all" makes people sound at best quaint and at worst, stupid.

Click to shrink...

lol really in Georgia?

The Construction Manager I just worked with for 2 full years was from Georgia before moving to TEXAS. And he used "yall" normally all the time.

But he's black, so I don't know if that's part of the reason. It seems like all black people across the country use "yall" no matter what state

 

[BiggStankDogg]

I didn't ask you if you would be bothered. I suggested that you wouldn't feel included. If someone refers to you with a gender identity that you're not, it's only logical that you would not feel that your gender identity isn't being included in the discussion.

Click to shrink...

To clarify further, no I wouldn't feel un-included if I was in the room being addressed, ie I don't think the address would imply "EXCEPT FOR YOU, BSD". I would understand and process the context of the statement to mean "all of you as the group".

 

[DyslexicAlucard]

I'm from Georgia and even to me "y'all" makes people sound at best quaint and at worst, stupid.

Click to shrink...

This is founded in a lot of prejudice regarding southern people. There's nothing inherent to "y'all" that sounds "stupid"; it only does to some because it is associated with the south, and those people believe (whether consciously or unconsciously) negative stereotypes about southern people.

I hope you don't take that as an attack, but as something to consider. I know it is something I have been guilty of in the past as well, so there's nothing to be ashamed about! Just consider why, exactly, you feel the way you do about that accent.

 

[astro]

To clarify further, no I wouldn't feel un-included if I was in the room being addressed, ie I don't think the address would imply "EXCEPT FOR YOU, BSD". I would understand and process the context of the statement to mean "all of you as the group".

Click to shrink...

Have you had your gender identity denied your entire life in ways like this? In all aspects of life?

 

[Hassel]

Pals is a solid substitute

 

[diverit]

I don't mind trying to move to gender neutral terms. I have no idea how people are coming up with the idea that guys is gender neutral if boys isn't. Do these sentences make sense?
As a cis hetero male I'm looking to date hot hetero guys only.
It's Guys night at the club! Women get in for half off!
This is the Men's bathroom, the Guys bathroom is over there.

Click to shrink...

It should be obvious but 'guys' can be gender neutral when used by particular individuals who belong to a particular group given a particular context. For instance, my wife and her group of women friends acknowledge their group in such a manner. "Hey guys, what are we doing for xxx's hens?"

I get the technicality so don't berate me on that. I'm simply saying how important it is to consider context when it comes to language.

 

[diverit]

Oooops dp

 

[Deleted member 2550]

Everyone seriously suggesting "y'all" as a replacement is objectively wrong and should feel bad. Folks is borderline awful too. Fam is trash and has always been trash too.

Everything else is fine though.

*edit*
Completely unrelated but I would like to take this opportunity to say fuck the word "hundo" too.

 

[BiggStankDogg]

Given the content of your posts ITT?

I think it's clear this is not the case. And I think you're being very dishonest with you approach now.

Please though, if I'm wrong here tell me and I'll try to understand your position.

Click to shrink...

Tell me in what way and what I've said to be dishonest, and I will attempt to clarify. But again, the fact that you're essentially asking me to "present my papers" to try and prove your human experience is somehow paramount to my own is a strange twist in your argument.

Would you (or anyone in this thread) feel comfortable if I asked you to PROVE your experience to judge merit in your argument?

That seems highly toxic and slippery to me.

 

[brainchild]

To clarify further, no I wouldn't feel un-included if I was in the room being addressed, ie I don't think the address would imply "EXCEPT FOR YOU, BSD". I would understand and process the context of the statement to mean "all of you as the group".

Click to shrink...

Nevertheless, it indicates that there wasn't much consideration of your difference in gender when addressing the whole team, and the gender of your co-workers would have been given more weight. That's not exactly fair treatment, nor is it inclusive, from a logical perspective. That you have no problem with your gender identity being ignored doesn't change those facts.

 

[astro]

Tell me in what way and what I've said to be dishonest, and I will attempt to clarify. But again, the fact that you're essentially asking me to "present my papers" to try and prove your human experience is somehow paramount to my own is a strange twist in your argument.

Would you (or anyone in this thread) feel comfortable if I asked you to PROVE your experience to judge merit in your argument?

That seems highly toxic and slippery to me.

Click to shrink...

Sorry, I'm confused, as I asked above: have you had a life time of your gender identity being dismissed, denied, and erased?

 

[BiggStankDogg]

Have you had your gender identity denied your entire life in ways like this? In all aspects of life?

Click to shrink...

Is that the metric for having an opinion nowadays? I'm seriously asking.

 

[purpleturtle]

I'm going to use an exaggerated stereotype to illustrate my point - but if I was a male at a makeup or fashion event and the MC said "How are we feeling ladies?" I would not be offended in the slightest, nor would I demand representation. because I would understand the statement was not made to injure or offend.

Click to shrink...

See this is the part I find the hardest, I've realized I simply cannot directly empathize with the concerns of less represented people like the OP. As a male, society has always respected my expression as a male, and as such I've internalized confidence in this identity to a high degree. A misgendering here or there wouldn't bother because I've never been in a position where I felt I needed to defend my identity.

This is problematic because I usually decide if I should dismiss someone's concerns by imagining myself in their position. In a similar situation to the OP, if I was in a group and people said "Let's go girls!" or "Girl you are KILLING it!" I literally would not care. So I straight up can't really feel their struggle because it's simply too foreign to me. What's so problematic for people like me is that if I hear complaints I can't understand, then they initially come off as kind of annoying? I know it's wrong and it's one of many things I would like to address in myself.

The situation needs to be viewed in the context of your privilege. Gender identity is one of those issues I don't think people like us will ever be able to connect with. So in my view it's not my place to say what's right and what's wrong. I will say, however, that it's not that hard to be inclusive, so I'll try my best to be inclusive. (I'll be using "guys" until the day I die though, it's too ingrained sorry)

 

[astro]

Is that the metric for having an opinion nowadays? I'm seriously asking.

Click to shrink...

No, I'm asking you if you have.

If you have not, do you not see how it might be hard for you to understand how that feels?

Why it might not seem like a big deal being that 1 out of 15 in the scenario above to someone who has not experienced this all their lives?

 

[Sparks]

Every time someone says "boys" I just think of that dude from Trailer Park Boys.

Click to shrink...

Hahaha, I just think of Mcelroy's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYZl_YOMg7E

 

[BiggStankDogg]

Nevertheless, it indicates that there wasn't much consideration of your difference in gender when addressing the whole team, and the gender of your co-workers would have been given more weight. That's not exactly fair treatment, nor is it inclusive, from a logical perspective. That you have no problem being ignored doesn't change those facts.

Click to shrink...

So you're essentially saying, no matter how I answer your premise, I'm wrong and you're right? What was the purpose of the object lesson?

 

[Buttzerker]

I feel lucky to be Texan for once. I exclusively refer to groups as "y'all" and always have.

 

[texhnolyze]

I used to use 'guys', but then I learned that it's gender specific, so I settled with 'folks' now.

 

[fertygo]

I dont use boys but use "dude" in same effect. But its not that often.

 

[The Flop]

Y'all is the tea, it's so versatile.