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Using a DAC is a complete game changer!
- Thread starter hlhbk
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Does this improve in general or is it only for the DAC stuff?
I usually use Sennheiser 598SE on my PC via the 3.5mm, would EqualizerAPO/AutoEQ help there?
That is what I'm also currently doing, but mordecaii83 told me stuff like 3D Audio or Dolby Atmos won't work by this method. Although the next gen consoles aren't out yet, I guess in time I'll see if Sony or Microsoft considered a solution considering the removal of optional from the consoles.
There is also the option going straight from Console > USB > DAC (if your DAC has USB support that is, I know the Modi 3 does) > Powered Monitors / Headphones.
The lack of Optical is definitely an inconvenience though if features like Dolby Atmos or 3D Audio don't work via this method.
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It doesn't. The DAC is built into those headphones.
But what's nice about Penrose is that it has an EQ that saves to the headset itself. I have the previous generation and the headphones are excellent for gaming OR music. One thing I've noticed with most "gaming" headsets is that the actual audio quality is trash and you wouldn't want to listen to music on them if you had the choice. I had some Steelseries cans years ago and was appalled at how bad they sounded. These Audezes' will impress. I haven't head gaming headsets lately, but I expect Penrose to be a clear step up from the typical competitors.
But we'll see soon enough.
Thanks! I figured that was the case but wasn't 100% sure. Looking forward to seeing the reviews of the Penrose's.
DACs are very important in the sense that it's absolutely vital that you have a decent one that can provide a good clean signal. For example the "DAC" (and also the "amp") in a headphone controller is absolutely terrible and anyone going from that to a dedicated DAC is going to hear a massive difference. Pure sound quality wise there's very little difference in quality been a good 200-400 dollar one compared to ones that going into the 1000+ range. You basically start paying for features such as extra optical/USB ports, build quality, balanced output and the last 1-2% of performance.
This is essentially to make every headphone sound the "same"/neutral. If you have headphones that diverge alot from what people in gerenral consider neutral, this will change the sound characteristics completely.
I use this for example to make my Superlux HD668B sound almost the same as my Hifiman Deva. Both have still differences, obviously and I add a bit more mids to the result because it sounds subjectively a bit better, but it's cool to see how close you can get with cheap.
EqualizerAPO is a good way for applying these equalizer profiles, but you can use any other equalizer. No DAC needed.
But I still would use a DAC, that tests well (not nessesarly expensive, try here for lots of tests) No Idea how good your Audio from Mainboard is. On mine there is... maybe a difference? I think most people overestimate the impact different DAC's have as long as they pass a certain minimum quality. I wouldn't bet that I can tell the difference if I have to tell in a blindtest.
This entirely depends on the quality on your motherboard audio. Many current motherboards that aren't the cheapest models have very good onboard audio with clean DACs and sufficient amplification. In that case, the difference is small.
If your onboard audio is terrible, which is true of many budget boards, it can be a massive difference.
That's if the built in DAC is good to begin with (a lot are not good at all). Also a stand alone DAC is usually needed if you want to use a headphonr amplifier too. You need a line out to avoid double amping, not just plugging an amp straight into the headphone jack.
I also hear Schiit stacks don't pair well with Sennheisers and have been recommended on another forum a combination of stuff you've mentioned (Topping D30 DAC and JDS Labs Atom amp). Glad to know the D30 with a JDS amp is a good PS4 combo.
99 dollars for Sennheiser HD 599 on Black Friday at Amazon. But I don't use, or need a dac. I run a 3.5 cable from the DualShocks port into a small portable amp, and plug my headphones into the amp. Works great.
Note: I've only ever connected the D30 to my PS4 via Optical and never tried it via USB.
Yeah I use a PS Sprout for my headphones on my PC, it sounds fantastic. And actually Apple's little 10 dollar USB-C to 3.5 dongle DAC is pretty damn decent for laptop use, it beats the hell out of my integrated jack which is very noisy and subject to interference, especially when I use it in bed or while the laptop is plugged in.
I'm very, very, very far from being any sort of audiophile and in fact the DAC and headphones were both gifts from my dad, which I was at first very tepid about, but I've really come to notice a difference and appreciate them. It was really a super nice gift and at first I felt bad like the money was wasted, but it's been such a great thing to have over the years.
I'm very, very, very far from being any sort of audiophile and in fact the DAC and headphones were both gifts from my dad, which I was at first very tepid about, but I've really come to notice a difference and appreciate them. It was really a super nice gift and at first I felt bad like the money was wasted, but it's been such a great thing to have over the years.
When I first got my M50s years ago they sounded fine on an iPod but garbage on my laptop. Realized the built in sound was horrible. Got an inexpensive FiiO e10k and they sounded very notably better. My Sennheiser HD58X sound great on it too. From everything I've read I don't think there would be some huge improvement though spending hundreds on higher end DAC and AMP. So though I don't have the experience to say I agree, I don't doubt that you are right about not necessarily needing the highest end of gear. But having a good baseline to begin with that isn't junk onboard audio can be helpful.
Also if someone wants to use low impedance headphones with a Bluetooth device like a ES100 I think they would likely be getting an upgrade over their phone DAC without having to plug into their phone (I guess it would depend on the phone and its BT codec capability as well).
I've never been an audiophile but I wonder what I'm missing sometimes. I do notice when sound is flat and lacks bass, or has some kind of noise in it, but besides that I'm generally happy with what I have (Steelseries Siberia V2 plugged into MSI Trident ITX PC motherboard sound, Logitech Z906 plugged into tv digital optical, and Corsair HS70 wireless for PS4 when needing to be quiet, I do sometimes notice the wireless background noise which is kind of annoying, but wireless is so great).
According to a Reddit post I found, that's just Creative's misleading way of saying "This should be able to drive most high-impedance headphones" and the actual, real-world rating is around a third of that.
The ESS Sabre 9118 DAC is partially why I decided to pay a little extra for an Aorus Master motherboard.
Hopefully it will make a noticeable difference. Not that I think my current headphone audio is bad, but better is always better.
My headphones are currently the Philips PH802 and I reckon they're on the level of good enough.
Eyeing HD599 or X2HR for a potential future upgrade.
But that's about as far as I'm willing to go down the audiophile swamp on this.
Hopefully it will make a noticeable difference. Not that I think my current headphone audio is bad, but better is always better.
My headphones are currently the Philips PH802 and I reckon they're on the level of good enough.
Eyeing HD599 or X2HR for a potential future upgrade.
But that's about as far as I'm willing to go down the audiophile swamp on this.
This is always been of curiosity to me. If I'm understanding you correctly, using the 1/8th jack to output to headphones on, say, a mid-range AVR will be of lesser audio performance (quality?) that a DAC/Amp?
for example, I sometimes use said 1/8th jack to my V-Moda headphones if I'm playing very early in the morning (for all other times I use my 5.1.2 Atmos setup.). I also have pre-outs but I've never used them since, tbh, I've never fully understood why I would (multichannel surround for videogames is my main use case, with UHD Atmos/DTS:X films as secondary).
Just curiosity and your excellent post have piqued my interest even more.
You can Google it. Double blind studies on dacs, amps, cables, etc. Cables and dacs are the two biggest scams
I worked in the audio industry for years and own (and have owned) many bits of hi-fi/av gear, from entry level to pretty high-end I can assuredly tell you there is an appreciable difference in DACs (and analog cables). That's not to say you can't get some great affordable bargains (I'm running a fairly modest Teddy Pardo DAC with my reference STAX headphone set-up) but my Naim NDX DAC/streamer is significantly better than my Rega DAC. Of course, with DACs it's the analog output stage and power supply that makes the biggest difference. You can have the fanciest, highest rez chip you like but it won't do much if it's strangled in the analog domain.
Expensive dacs, yeah not much difference other than features and the power coming out of the line out.
But internal vs external? I'll take external to avoid all of the interference inside of a computer.
I own a cheap USB powered Turtle Beach DAC. it transformed my crappy bluetooth headphones into an amazing wired gaming headphones. I'm so impressed with the results I'm not even going to bother buying new headphones till my setup dies. I can't even imagine what a mid tier/ high end DACs would to, so yeah I totally agree that DACs are game changers.
They're not out in the wild yet but for owners of dacs/amps on headphones... What's the view on surround sound?
Will it be better to use the fancy new tech in the ps5 and Xbox series, or use the dac/amp own version of surround sound?
If using the console version of surround sound, I assume the amp should be setup expecting and outputting a stereo output? All the 3dness will already be encoded in the stereo stream to the dac/amp?
Edit - are there any wireless versions that will give decent sound? I'm not that keen on a 10foot headphone cable from TV to sofa.
Will it be better to use the fancy new tech in the ps5 and Xbox series, or use the dac/amp own version of surround sound?
If using the console version of surround sound, I assume the amp should be setup expecting and outputting a stereo output? All the 3dness will already be encoded in the stereo stream to the dac/amp?
Edit - are there any wireless versions that will give decent sound? I'm not that keen on a 10foot headphone cable from TV to sofa.
I'm sure this is discussed but people need to be careful when buying any old DAC to use with the PS5/XSX since they won't have optical out and going via the TVs optical out might not be ideal either (won't support every audio format but I guess it depends which ones are missing).
I'm so used to having my Schitt stack work through optical and gonna have to think how I get it to work with the new consoles. For me I think a good compatible USB DAC is the answer, but annoyed my Modi Multibit won't work...
Think I might buy something just for the consoles and expecting Schiits gaming range to be the best solution. Anyone else had the same thought?
ps3ud0 8)
I'm so used to having my Schitt stack work through optical and gonna have to think how I get it to work with the new consoles. For me I think a good compatible USB DAC is the answer, but annoyed my Modi Multibit won't work...
Think I might buy something just for the consoles and expecting Schiits gaming range to be the best solution. Anyone else had the same thought?
ps3ud0 8)
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Even a high-end AVR or stereo amplifier is likely to have a bad headphone output.
As I understand it, it's not a priority so most use a cheap circuit with resistors to step down the main amplifier output for headphones, rather than a dedicated headphone amplifier design.
If the spec is published at all, the output is typically over 100 ohms - and if not, it may be several times higher. I seem to recall someone measuring a Sony AVR and the output was over 600 ohms - when it should be as close to zero as possible.
I think 32 ohms is the lowest spec I've seen for an AVR, and that would still mean the headphones paired with it would have to be 256 ohms or higher for proper damping. Few designs have an impedance that high these days.
The noise floor on a lot of AVRs is quite poor too - which can be very noticeable with headphones, especially lower impedance ones.
They're half-right.
The amplifier matters far more than the DAC, as even a basic (but competent) DAC should be capable of outperforming all but the highest-end amplifiers in terms of distortion/noise - so the difference between DACs is often measurable, but not audible.
The best thing you can do is get a DAC which uses an optical connection (even though it's starting to disappear now) since that gets you total electrical isolation from the source, and thus it cannot transfer any interference/noise. I was having interference problems from a poorly isolated source device recently, and literally the cheapest Optical DAC that I could find fixed the problem entirely. Of course it was not a great DAC, but it did eliminate all the interference.
You only need a stereo output from the next-gen consoles, since both are doing headphone virtualization on-board.
It's still up in the air whether Sony will let you output a headphone signal over HDMI to the TV (which would then be output via optical) or if it's only supported over USB or 3.5mm via the controller though.
If it's not supported at launch, I expect the option to be patched in shortly.
I generally agree with the statement that spending more than $100 on a DAC is not a great idea as you hit the point of diminishing returns. There are fantastic-performing, fully transparent DACs with extremely low noise level and full 2V audio output at this price point. However, I am still convinced that a standalone DAC is essential for achieving the best possible sound.
There are several advantages to a standalone DAC compared to the things built-in our receivers and TVs:
1. Very low noise level meaning there should be no hiss audible when hooked up to sensitive headphones/speakers.
2. Much reduced RFI and EMI interference from routers, radio stations, cell towers etc.
3. Full 2 Volt output on the audio out which is very important when it comes to pushing less sensitive speakers and headphones to acceptable sound levels.
4. Zero sound lag compared to HDMI to optical converters built into TV sets and audio processors built into AV receivers.
As an example, I am currently using the built-in DAC in my LG 27UL650-W monitor to output the audio signal via 3.5mm jack to my headphone amp and speaker amp. It does an acceptable job, but the inherent noise level (hiss) is much higher than on my standalone DAC. It only becomes apparent when using low-impedance, high sensitivity headphones, but it is clear.
There are several advantages to a standalone DAC compared to the things built-in our receivers and TVs:
1. Very low noise level meaning there should be no hiss audible when hooked up to sensitive headphones/speakers.
2. Much reduced RFI and EMI interference from routers, radio stations, cell towers etc.
3. Full 2 Volt output on the audio out which is very important when it comes to pushing less sensitive speakers and headphones to acceptable sound levels.
4. Zero sound lag compared to HDMI to optical converters built into TV sets and audio processors built into AV receivers.
As an example, I am currently using the built-in DAC in my LG 27UL650-W monitor to output the audio signal via 3.5mm jack to my headphone amp and speaker amp. It does an acceptable job, but the inherent noise level (hiss) is much higher than on my standalone DAC. It only becomes apparent when using low-impedance, high sensitivity headphones, but it is clear.
I have Soundblaster Z with that external "puck" and I drive through them Sennheiser HD6xx (drop ones) just fine. They are clear, loud, no issues with mids or anything else. I have been thinking about getting a DAC/Amp combo for ages, but just can't justify the cost.
For TV/Consoles I can't use wired (kids, dogs, etc...) so I just use my Sony WH1000-XM2 through Bluetooth on my LG TV. I do have a small Filo DAC/AMP for when everyone is asleep with a long 3.5 mm cord but it's nothing special.
I am still greatly tempted by a DAC/Amp combo though. Some of the suggestions above are fairly reasonably priced (~$250 for the combo) so might grab it to try it out and see if there is major improvement. For Console, I'd have to run optical out from TV to the DAC/Amp, I am guessing, right?
I believe Sony said they were going to be adding it over HDMI, it's just not supported at launch?
The Xbox One does already support Dolby Atmos for Headphones over HDMI though as far as I remember, surely that will carry over to the Xbox Series X?
The source of this is nearly always the amplifier, not the DAC.
Amps tend to have a far higher noise floor than competent DACs. It doesn't matter if the noise floor of your DAC is −102dB or −126dB if the amp's noise floor is −90 dB.
That's not to say a DAC can't matter. There's more to it than just the noise floor, and if you're buying a state-of-the-art amplifier like a Benchmark AHB2 at $3000, you certainly want to pair it with a high-end DAC.
But spending a lot of money on a high-end DAC should be low on the list of priorities after things like headphones/speakers and the amplifier.
Yes, the built-in headphone outputs on displays, computers, and AVRs are often bad performers. Apple were typically an exception to this, having good headphone outputs on their devices - though they were still a bit noisy for low-impedance, high-sensitivity IEMs.
Often, the line-out performance of these devices is fine if paired with a good amplifier - though in some cases, like a computer, you may still want an optical DAC. But you don't have to spend a lot.
In terms of priority, headphones/speakers matter the most by far, then amplifiers, and finally DACs.
It should if it has a stereo mode.
Ah, interesting. Perhaps I overlooked a configuration issue or fell victim to PC gaming's characteristic Just One of Those Things™. Regardless, it's far too late for a change of heart and I'm more than satisfied with the setup, so spilt milk and all that.
Yeah I use the abyss 1266tc headphones for gaming. They're paired with a bryston amp and dac connected to my aorus gigabyte 17g laptop. It all sounds outstanding.
I agree with this a 100%. Spend most of your money on transducers. There really is no reason to spend more than $200 on a combination of a headphone amp and DAC these days.
Things get a bit more complicated with speaker amplifiers as they end up costing more, but I find that Yamaha A/V receivers do an adequate job of amplifying most speakers.
Probably not. They aren't worth it for some high end headphones either. It is all about the amount of power required for your particular set. The DAC/amp allows for you to use headphones that require more ohms.
Things don't exist in isolation though. People's usecases are broader than just using an onboard dac with a headphone. This forum's typical scenario would be to integrate multiple consoles and a PC to a media center. A mobo's onboard dac won't allow that.
Your general point is OK, as DAC chipsets are very capable and hell everyone uses the same 1 or 2 chipsets, but isolation and the analog output stage make a lot of differences. And there are plenty of HF noise issues from mobo outputs because there's no isolation. You can easily test those things out. If you have a lot of bluetooth/wifi devices, connect your mobo output and run the devices at the same time, and move your mouse around. Many cheaper mobo's will transfer noise to the headphones.
Outboard devices aren't just an option, an integrated amplifier (what you guys call AVR) is a requirement. And this device has a dac inside it.
Lol yeah I dig it. Playing dead space right now and it's terrifying with the sound effects.
Which DAC will people be using with the PS5?.
I'm getting annoyed with my sound blaster G6 as I have to have it plugged into a laptop and TV via optical to get audio in direct mode. There's no way to turn off its virtual surround stuff, unfortunately.
I'm getting annoyed with my sound blaster G6 as I have to have it plugged into a laptop and TV via optical to get audio in direct mode. There's no way to turn off its virtual surround stuff, unfortunately.
Don't you just press the button on the side to turn off surround sound?
We are all impatiently waiting for a confirmation from any reliable source that the PS5 supports Usb Audio Class 2 DACs. If it only supports UAC1 DACs like the PS4 did, your best bet would be JDS Labs OL DAC or the Atom DAC with downgraded UAC1 firmware.
Edit: All current Schiit DACs are UAC2-only.
